Hal

Subject car is a 2002 Elantra, 2.0l, 5spd manual. ~70k

Major complaint is severe clutch slippage.

Tonight I helped the owner pull the transaxle out of the car.
Unfortuantely I was unable to manuver the transaxle out of the car
without first removing the pressure plate and clutch disc from the
flywheel. I had to loosen the pressure plate bolts one at a time and
that gave me just barely enough room to flip the transaxle over and get
it out from under the car. Once we got it out and started inspecting it
was obvious the pressure plate and flywheel are glazed. I think the
pressure valve in the slave cylinder is to blame, when I drove this
thing a few months ago it felt like I was riding the clutch for 1 -2
seconds between each shift.

Anyway, Is there a trick to getting the transaxle back in without
pulling the engine? I would much prefer to install the new clutch
without the transaxle in there so I can tighten the bolts evenly, and
then put the transaxle back in and bolt them up. Do I need to remove
the engine mount from the passenger side and hoist the engine to get
enough clearance? Anyone have any suggestions?

Chris

komobu

Not sure with this particular car, but with the old Excels I used to
just remove the side motor mount and tilt the engine in such a manner
that I could slide it on.

Pat

Hal wrote:
> Subject car is a 2002 Elantra, 2.0l, 5spd manual. ~70k
>
> Major complaint is severe clutch slippage.
>
> Tonight I helped the owner pull the transaxle out of the car.
> Unfortuantely I was unable to manuver the transaxle out of the car
> without first removing the pressure plate and clutch disc from the
> flywheel. I had to loosen the pressure plate bolts one at a time and
> that gave me just barely enough room to flip the transaxle over and get
> it out from under the car. Once we got it out and started inspecting it
> was obvious the pressure plate and flywheel are glazed. I think the
> pressure valve in the slave cylinder is to blame, when I drove this
> thing a few months ago it felt like I was riding the clutch for 1 -2
> seconds between each shift.
>
> Anyway, Is there a trick to getting the transaxle back in without
> pulling the engine? I would much prefer to install the new clutch
> without the transaxle in there so I can tighten the bolts evenly, and
> then put the transaxle back in and bolt them up. Do I need to remove
> the engine mount from the passenger side and hoist the engine to get
> enough clearance? Anyone have any suggestions?
>
> Chris

hyundaitech

Remove the clutch release lever from the top of the transmission, flip it
over, and install it upside down.

Bolt the pressure plate and clutch onto the flywheel. Install the new
throwout bearing onto the bearing forks and push onto the input shaft hub
as far down as it will go. Flipping the lever over made this rotation of
the release fork shaft possible. Then bolt the transmission up to the
engine. Once you have the transmission bolted up, use the release fork
lever to snap the throwout bearing onto the pressure plate. Then flip the
lever back over and install properly.

hyundaitech

Sorry, Hal. I may not have understood your problem. If you haven't
removed the subframe, the transmission won't come out. You'll need to
remove the subframe.

Hal

hyundaitech wrote:
> Sorry, Hal. I may not have understood your problem. If you haven't
> removed the subframe, the transmission won't come out. You'll need to
> remove the subframe.

Indeed, we found this out. We just dropped it down onto some jack
stands and left the tie-rod ends installed. Dropping it down went okay,
we had enough room to get the transaxle back into the wheel well and
then we got the jack under it and the subframe and raised it into
position. The car drives just great now. The only problem is that I
screwed up indexing the position of the rack and the steering shaft
when we put it back together(wheel is off center now by about 45
degrees). Is there a quick and dirty way of fixing this aside from
pulling the steering wheel?

Also...we took the 'pressure valve' out of the end of the slave
cylinder. Talk about a MAJOR improvement..this thing has a -real-
clutch now. I don't know why HMC found it to be a good idea to include
that feature...it seems as though that valve scrubbed the life right
out of the factory clutch as we had to do this job at only 70,000
miles. Do you pull this valve out when you do a clutch job?

Oh..one last question. The clutch disc didn't look all that bad aside
from being glazed...it wasn't down to the rivets yet but the flywheel
and the cover were both obviously burned. I noticed that the clutch
release arm has an "extension" on it that was hitting a boss on the
transaxle case. I also noticed that with the new clutch components
installed there is a sizeable gap there now between the arm and the
case. Am I correct in assuming that as the friction disc wears down
that gap will decrease?

Chris

Hal

hyundaitech wrote:
> Sorry, Hal. I may not have understood your problem. If you haven't
> removed the subframe, the transmission won't come out. You'll need to
> remove the subframe.

Indeed, we found this out. We just dropped it down onto some jack
stands and left the tie-rod ends installed. Dropping it down went okay,
we had enough room to get the transaxle back into the wheel well and
then we got the jack under it and the subframe and raised it into
position. The car drives just great now. The only problem is that I
screwed up indexing the position of the rack and the steering shaft
when we put it back together(wheel is off center now by about 45
degrees). Is there a quick and dirty way of fixing this aside from
pulling the steering wheel?

Also...we took the 'pressure valve' out of the end of the slave
cylinder. Talk about a MAJOR improvement..this thing has a -real-
clutch now. I don't know why HMC found it to be a good idea to include
that feature...it seems as though that valve scrubbed the life right
out of the factory clutch as we had to do this job at only 70,000
miles. Do you pull this valve out when you do a clutch job?

Oh..one last question. The clutch disc didn't look all that bad aside
from being glazed...it wasn't down to the rivets yet but the flywheel
and the cover were both obviously burned. I noticed that the clutch
release arm has an "extension" on it that was hitting a boss on the
transaxle case. I also noticed that with the new clutch components
installed there is a sizeable gap there now between the arm and the
case. Am I correct in assuming that as the friction disc wears down
that gap will decrease?

Chris

Brian Nystrom

Hal wrote:

> Also...we took the 'pressure valve' out of the end of the slave
> cylinder. Talk about a MAJOR improvement..this thing has a -real-
> clutch now. I don't know why HMC found it to be a good idea to include
> that feature...it seems as though that valve scrubbed the life right
> out of the factory clutch as we had to do this job at only 70,000
> miles.

The speculation is that this dubious "feature" is designed to make is
less likely that the clumsy-footed masses will stall the car by letting
the clutch out too fast. Unfortunately, it creates increased clutch
slippage which leads to increased wear. It also makes the clutch feel
very inconsistent. Should the tiny orifice become blocked - or partially
blocked - with debris, you have a real problem on your hands. It's a
classic case of designing for the lowest common denominator, which is
never a good idea.

Matt Whiting

Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Hal wrote:
>
>> Also...we took the 'pressure valve' out of the end of the slave
>> cylinder. Talk about a MAJOR improvement..this thing has a -real-
>> clutch now. I don't know why HMC found it to be a good idea to include
>> that feature...it seems as though that valve scrubbed the life right
>> out of the factory clutch as we had to do this job at only 70,000
>> miles.
>
>
> The speculation is that this dubious "feature" is designed to make is
> less likely that the clumsy-footed masses will stall the car by letting
> the clutch out too fast. Unfortunately, it creates increased clutch
> slippage which leads to increased wear. It also makes the clutch feel
> very inconsistent. Should the tiny orifice become blocked - or partially
> blocked - with debris, you have a real problem on your hands. It's a
> classic case of designing for the lowest common denominator, which is
> never a good idea.

Does the Sonata have this same "feature?" Maybe that is why my clutch
feels so weird. That and the hypersensitive throttle make driving my
car a lot more challenging than any other stick I've driven ... and I've
driving many.

I read a pretty dismal article about Hyundai today, I think in Business
Week. It said that the new Sonata isn't selling well at all and that
Hyundai is much less efficient at making cars than is Toyota and Honda
taking something like 2/3 more hours of build time per car. And the Won
exchange rate has hurt them also reducing the cost advantage compared to
a Camry to less than $2000. The article speculates that this simply
isn't enough of a differential to overcome Hyundai's past reputation.


Matt

Brian Nystrom

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Brian Nystrom wrote:
>> Hal wrote:
>>
>>> Also...we took the 'pressure valve' out of the end of the slave
>>> cylinder. Talk about a MAJOR improvement..this thing has a -real-
>>> clutch now. I don't know why HMC found it to be a good idea to include
>>> that feature...it seems as though that valve scrubbed the life right
>>> out of the factory clutch as we had to do this job at only 70,000
>>> miles.
>>
>>
>> The speculation is that this dubious "feature" is designed to make is
>> less likely that the clumsy-footed masses will stall the car by
>> letting the clutch out too fast. Unfortunately, it creates increased
>> clutch slippage which leads to increased wear. It also makes the
>> clutch feel very inconsistent. Should the tiny orifice become blocked
>> - or partially blocked - with debris, you have a real problem on your
>> hands. It's a classic case of designing for the lowest common
>> denominator, which is never a good idea.
>
> Does the Sonata have this same "feature?" Maybe that is why my clutch
> feels so weird. That and the hypersensitive throttle make driving my
> car a lot more challenging than any other stick I've driven ... and I've
> driving many.

I don't know, but I'm sure you can find out by looking on Webtech.

> I read a pretty dismal article about Hyundai today, I think in Business
> Week. It said that the new Sonata isn't selling well at all and that
> Hyundai is much less efficient at making cars than is Toyota and Honda
> taking something like 2/3 more hours of build time per car. And the Won
> exchange rate has hurt them also reducing the cost advantage compared to
> a Camry to less than $2000. The article speculates that this simply
> isn't enough of a differential to overcome Hyundai's past reputation.

I wouldn't worry about it.

Hal

> Does the Sonata have this same "feature?" Maybe that is why my clutch
> feels so weird. That and the hypersensitive throttle make driving my
> car a lot more challenging than any other stick I've driven ... and I've
> driving many.
>

I'm not a hyundai expert, but the behavior I observed with the pressure
valve in place is a delayed clutch engagement. The test I used to
determine this car had the valve was to have a helper press the clutch
to the floor and then release it instantly. If you see the clutch arm
at the transaxle retract over the span of a second and a half or so you
can assume you have the pressure valve.

Removal on a 2002 elantra was relatively simple. We already had the
transaxle out but you could do it with the transaxle in the car just as
easily. Remove the bolts holding the slave cylinder to the transaxle
case. Remove the banjo bolt from the end of the slave cylinder, and
then turn the slave cylinder so that the pushrod is pointing up and
press the release rod slightly. You should see a small metal 'clip'
with a small hole in it and a small spring come out of the release
cylinder. Re-install the banjo bolt, install the slave cylinder, and
then bleed the clutch system and you're back where you started.

I would imagine the sonata is probably the same basic procedure. As for
how it works from the factory, the spring goes in first and the 'cup'
goes in after that, and then the banjo bolt/hose assembly closes the
end of the slave cylinder. When you press the clutch pedal the fluid
moves the pressure valve off of its seat, allowing you to release the
clutch as quickly as you can press the pedal to the floor. Going in the
opposite direction, when you take your foot off the clutch pedal the
tiny spring inside the slave cylinder forces the pressure valve up
against the end of the banjo bolt, and the small hole in the valve acts
as a flow restrictor, slowing the rate at which the brake fluid can get
out of the slave cylinder. This causes the clutch to 'ride' a bit every
time you shift. It's great if you replace clutches for a living, but
for the vehicle owner I think this is a terrible 'feature'.

Good luck with it.

Chris

Edwin Pawlowski

"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
> I read a pretty dismal article about Hyundai today, I think in Business
> Week. It said that the new Sonata isn't selling well at all and that
> Hyundai is much less efficient at making cars than is Toyota and Honda
> taking something like 2/3 more hours of build time per car. And the Won
> exchange rate has hurt them also reducing the cost advantage compared to a
> Camry to less than $2000. The article speculates that this simply isn't
> enough of a differential to overcome Hyundai's past reputation.

At first glance, it is a bit dismal, but I doubt Hyundai is going to let it
continue that way.

I'm sure they have all sorts of engineers working to get the build faster.
There are enough automotive engineers around the world that have run across
and solved that sort of problem. Hopefully, they will keep the quality up
while finding methods to improve speed.

Building a reputation takes a long time though. I've mentioned before, I
laughed at the thought of buying a Hyundai just weeks before I bought mine.
It took a trip to the showroom to convince me there was a lot of value and a
seemingly high quality car. Now they just have to convince another 10
million more people to do the same and go to a showroom to see what you can
get.

Some Sonatas are in rental fleets, a good place to get some exposure. A
couple of people from work had a rental and were impressed. It was their
impression that got me to a showroom to look at one up close. Days later I
was driving one. When I was in Las Vegas a few weeks ago, there were quite a
few that looked like rentals. I saw more Sonatas in four days in LV than I
do around home in months.