jcw@rochester.rr.com

Greetings to all,

Got my first chance to listen to out of town AM radio stations on the
brand new Elantra tonight, or I almost did. When the engine is
running there is a gawd awful amount of interference that wipes out
all but strong, local stations. There is some alternator whine in
there, but the big problem is a constant loud rolling sort of noise
that has no engine speed component. The noise continues for about 15
seconds after stopping the engine, and then the noise goes away and
the out of town AM stations can be heard. What in an Elantra runs for
about 15 seconds after turning the engine off?

I guess I'm trying to find out if my experience is different than the
other AM radio posts in this group; most of those have just said
crummy performance without mentioning interference at all. So what say
you all? Will Hyundai fix an interference problem, or will I get the
"That's the way it is" story?

Regards,
John

Brian Nystrom

jcw@rochester.rr.com wrote:
> Greetings to all,
>
> Got my first chance to listen to out of town AM radio stations on the
> brand new Elantra tonight, or I almost did. When the engine is
> running there is a gawd awful amount of interference that wipes out
> all but strong, local stations. There is some alternator whine in
> there, but the big problem is a constant loud rolling sort of noise
> that has no engine speed component. The noise continues for about 15
> seconds after stopping the engine, and then the noise goes away and
> the out of town AM stations can be heard. What in an Elantra runs for
> about 15 seconds after turning the engine off?
>
> I guess I'm trying to find out if my experience is different than the
> other AM radio posts in this group; most of those have just said
> crummy performance without mentioning interference at all. So what say
> you all? Will Hyundai fix an interference problem, or will I get the
> "That's the way it is" story?

The Kenwood radio in the '04 has a real problem with fringe AM
reception. I just discovered that if I set the cruise control, it causes
a huge amount of noise on weak AM stations, but almost none if I have a
strong signal. I know that the '05 has a different radio, but it sounds
like it has similar issues.

JohnInRochester

Thanks for the info Brian.

I listened again this morning when things were nice and quiet, and this
noise is DEFINATELY digital in nature. I'll check to see if maybe the
cruise control is turned on and I just haven't realized it yet.

With the noise being digital in nature, it gives me hope that this is
just something faulty (and therefore can be resolved) and not just the
way things are.

Any ideas from others out there?

JohnInRochester

Thanks for the info Brian.

I listened again this morning when things were nice and quiet, and this
noise is DEFINATELY digital in nature. I'll check to see if maybe the
cruise control is turned on and I just haven't realized it yet.

With the noise being digital in nature, it gives me hope that this is
just something faulty (and therefore can be resolved) and not just the
way things are.

Any ideas from others out there?

hyundaitech

Does the noise return if the key is returned to the "on" position but stay
away if left in "accessory?"

JohnInRochester

hyundaitech wrote:
> Does the noise return if the key is returned to the "on" position but
stay
> away if left in "accessory?"

Hi hyundaitech,

Yes, the noise comes on when going from Acc to On, stays there while
on, then goes away 10-15 seconds after going from On to Acc. Got any
idea what this is???

hyundaitech

Brian's post about the cruise control is interesting. And the 15 sec.
delay sounds like it's about the right delay for a computer to go into
"sleep" mode, reducing it's power consumption. I'd suspect the PCM, TCM,
the cruise module, and any other electronic module that is intelligent
enough to reduce consumption after the ignition is turned off. If you're
not starting the car, if you wanted to go to the trouble, you could locate
and unplug the various modules trying to find the one that is affecting the
radio. Realistically, it's entirely possible that there's nothing to be
done about this unless Hyundai engineers and introduces a fix.

JohnInRochester

hyundaitech wrote:
> Brian's post about the cruise control is interesting. And the 15
sec.
> delay sounds like it's about the right delay for a computer to go
into
> "sleep" mode, reducing it's power consumption. I'd suspect the PCM,
TCM,
> the cruise module, and any other electronic module that is
intelligent
> enough to reduce consumption after the ignition is turned off. If
you're
> not starting the car, if you wanted to go to the trouble, you could
locate
> and unplug the various modules trying to find the one that is
affecting the
> radio. Realistically, it's entirely possible that there's nothing to
be
> done about this unless Hyundai engineers and introduces a fix.

Just to add some more...On the way home tonight I turned the cruise
control on and off with no change in the noise level. Doesn't eliminate
the cruise control but it would be different than Brian experienced if
it is the cruise control.

Perhaps you all can try this experiment and tell me if what I am
experiencing is true for ALL '05 Elantras, or if mine is somehow
'special'. Without starting the car, put the key in the accessory
position. Select the AM band on your radio and tune to some station
that in NOT local. In my case, I am in Rochester, NY and I am tuning a
station in Buffalo, NY, a distance of around 70 miles. Once you have a
station that you can hear reliably and is NOT local, move the key to
the on position. Note whether you can still hear the distant station or
whether it suddenly disappears or is covered by interference. If you
get the interference, move the key back to the accessory position and
see if the noise goes away in 10 or 15 seconds. If you do this test,
please post the results here so all of us AM using Elantra owners can
see the result.

I want very much to believe that Hyundai wouldn't allow a situation
this obvious to be the norm, but I was wrong once before, so ...

Regards,
John

Richard Steinfeld

| The Kenwood radio in the '04 has a real problem with fringe AM
| reception. I just discovered that if I set the cruise control,
it causes
| a huge amount of noise on weak AM stations, but almost none if
I have a
| strong signal. I know that the '05 has a different radio, but
it sounds
| like it has similar issues.

You mean Hyundai is selling Kenwood stereos as OE? That's like
carrying coals to Newcastle; Hyundai not only makes their own car
stereos, but sure looks to me like they are offering them as OE
to other car makers! Check it out:
http://www.hyundaiautonet.com/Englis...?cno1=1&cno2=1

I wonder if they, in fact, make this Kenwood under license, in
the same way that Radio Shack sells "RCA" products (RCA is
deader-than-dead -- the trademark was sold by GE to Thomson
[France]) 20 years ago.

Richard

Richard Steinfeld

"JohnInRochester" <jcw@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1112141581.072837.71910@f14g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com.

......tune to some station
| that in NOT local. In my case, I am in Rochester, NY and I am
tuning a
| station in Buffalo, NY, a distance of around 70 miles. Once you
have a
| station that you can hear reliably and is NOT local, move the
key to
| the on position. Note whether you can still hear the distant
station or
| whether it suddenly disappears or is covered by interference.
If you
| get the interference, move the key back to the accessory
position and
| see if the noise goes away in 10 or 15 seconds. If you do this
test,
| please post the results here so all of us AM using Elantra
owners can
| see the result.
|
| I want very much to believe that Hyundai wouldn't allow a
situation
| this obvious to be the norm, but I was wrong once before, so
....
|

AM radio has a poor signal-to-noise ratio. It's worse with
distance from the transmitter, the station's radiated power, and
time of day (many stations are required to greatly reduce power
at night). I'm thinking of a couple of classic gremlins from what
you've said -- classic in the sense that they've been standard
issues with car radios for many decades. You're experiencing a
bad ratio between the radio signal and the noise radiated by
various components of the car -- I'm fairly sure that these
devices are simply doing what they're supposed to do. I don't
think that car makers have been paying adequate attention to
signal isolation of their circuitry (my Hyundai's owner's manual
sure implies this!). And today's car stereos' AM performance is
pretty threadbare when compared with the magnificent capabilities
of, let's say, a Delco in days of yore (when was "yore" anyway?).

I rented an Elantra recently, and I just can't remember the
nature of its antenna. If it's got a standard whip these issues
come to mind:
- Is the antenna extended completely or not? If it is the
telescoping type and isn't all the way out, pull it out all the
way.
- Is the antenna's base grounded? It's supposed to be. It is
possible that the base is attached to the car's steel via rust.
If so, scrape the rust away to bare metal and consider applying a
coating such as electronic contact cleaner/preservative spray.
Test the continuity first with an ordinary volt-ohm meter
(disconnect the lead from the radio first!!!).
- Is the "hot" lead from the antenna connected?

Now, here's where it gets more fussy:
Your hood may not be grounded. A standard fix for this is to
connect the hood to the engine block or nearby body panel, etc,
with a real ground strap. This is typically a braided flat cable
similar to old-time battery negative cables. A decent car stereo
shop should be able to take care of this for you.

Amateur radio people have been known to add ground straps to many
body panels in order to get good quieting. These people are the
real experts in this realm. Commercial radio people are usually
knowledgeable about this, too, as are specialists in marine
radio. You can go to any of them for assistance.

During the 50s and 60s, SAAB provided a lot of good information
about noise suppression in their shop manuals to help amateur
radio enthusiasts. Bosch also provided many specialized
supression kits and discreet parts for many cars. The reason for
this attention was due to SAAB's radiating high-intensity
interference from the ignitions; these cars had 2-stroke engines,
and needed a bit more spark to fire the gas mixture (which
included oil in the gasoline). The coil wire was especially long,
too, which made that wire more of a transmitting antenna than in
most other cars. Thus, special care was needed to quiet down this
brand.

Richard

Brian Nystrom

JohnInRochester wrote:
> hyundaitech wrote:
>
>>Brian's post about the cruise control is interesting. And the 15 sec.
>>delay sounds like it's about the right delay for a computer to go into
>>"sleep" mode, reducing it's power consumption. I'd suspect the PCM, TCM,
>>the cruise module, and any other electronic module that is intelligent>
>>enough to reduce consumption after the ignition is turned off. If you're
>>not starting the car, if you wanted to go to the trouble, you could locate
>>and unplug the various modules trying to find the one that is affecting the
>>radio. Realistically, it's entirely possible that there's nothing to be
>>done about this unless Hyundai engineers and introduces a fix.
>
>
> Just to add some more...On the way home tonight I turned the cruise
> control on and off with no change in the noise level. Doesn't eliminate
> the cruise control but it would be different than Brian experienced if
> it is the cruise control.

I should have been more explicit about the cruise control problem.
Turning it on doesn't add any significant noise. The noise starts when
you set the speed. If I tap the clutch or brake to disengage the CC, the
noise stops after ~3 seconds. I suspect that Hyundaitech is correct that
it's the computer in the CC module that's causing this interference. As
I mentioned earlier, this is only a problem on weak stations. With a
strong signal, there is almost no perceptible noise.

Brian Nystrom

Richard Steinfeld wrote:

> You mean Hyundai is selling Kenwood stereos as OE?

The '04 Elantra GT came with a Kenwood sound system. I think that was
the only model and year that did.

ACA856

"Brian Nystrom" wrote:
> JohnInRochester wrote:
> > hyundaitech wrote:
> >
> &nbsp;>>Brian's post about the cruise control is interesting.
> And the 15 sec.
> &nbsp;>>delay sounds like it's about the right delay for a
> computer to go into
> &nbsp;>>"sleep" mode, reducing it's power consumption. I'd
> suspect the PCM, TCM,
> &nbsp;>>the cruise module, and any other electronic module
> that is intelligent&gt;
> &nbsp;>>enough to reduce consumption after the ignition is
> turned off. If you're
> &nbsp;>>not starting the car, if you wanted to go to the
> trouble, you could locate
> &nbsp;>>and unplug the various modules trying to find the one
> that is affecting the
> &nbsp;>>radio. Realistically, it's entirely possible that
> there's nothing to be
> &nbsp;>>done about this unless Hyundai engineers and
> introduces a fix.
> >
> >
> > Just to add some more...On the way home tonight I turned the
> cruise
> > control on and off with no change in the noise level.
> Doesn't eliminate
> > the cruise control but it would be different than Brian
> experienced if
> > it is the cruise control.
>
> I should have been more explicit about the cruise control
> problem.
> Turning it on doesn't add any significant noise. The noise
> starts when
> you set the speed. If I tap the clutch or brake to disengage
> the CC, the
> noise stops after ~3 seconds. I suspect that Hyundaitech is
> correct that
> it's the computer in the CC module that's causing this
> interference. As
> I mentioned earlier, this is only a problem on weak stations.
> With a
> strong signal, there is almost no perceptible noise.

I have the SAME problem with AM radio when I set the cruise control, I
get a buzzing noise. Called the dealer, they are aware of the problem
and will be replacing the system.

Ontario Canada.

Rob.

--
Posted using the http://www.autoforumz.com interface, at author's request
Articles individually checked for conformance to usenet standards
Topic URL: http://www.autoforumz.com/Hyundai-20...ict109711.html
Visit Topic URL to contact author (reg. req'd). Report abuse: http://www.autoforumz.com/eform.php?p=519634

JohnInRochester

..
>
> I have the SAME problem with AM radio when I set the cruise control,
I
> get a buzzing noise. Called the dealer, they are aware of the
problem
> and will be replacing the system.
>
> Ontario Canada.
>
> Rob.
>
> --
> Posted using the http://www.autoforumz.com interface, at author's
request
> Articles individually checked for conformance to usenet standards
> Topic URL:
http://www.autoforumz.com/Hyundai-20...ict109711.html
> Visit Topic URL to contact author (reg. req'd). Report abuse:
http://www.autoforumz.com/eform.php?p=519634

Here's an update for the group about how my situation is working out.

Took the Elantra in to the local dealer so they could hear the problem.
Ends up that ALL '05 Elantras with the H290 (CD) radio on their lot
experience this problem. They replaced the radio to try to fix the
problem; and it did get a little better, but certainly not anywhere
close to all the other Hyundai models and every other Make/Model I've
driven over the past couple of years (20+ different models due to
frequent rental).

Ends up that the District Parts and Service Manager for Rochester was
at the dealer today, so I went back for him to listen to and talk about
the situation. He offered to pay up to $100 to have someone else
address it (as long as I did all the work like selecting the service
provider, paying for it, investing my time, etc.). I refused this offer
for the reasons you'll see below. I asked specifically if the Hyundai
factory was aware of this condition and he indicated that they must be
since ALL the similar Elantras are that way. I then asked if Hyundai
intended to address this in any way and he said no. I put in a call to
Hyundai Consumer Affairs and learned that a District Manager is as far
as you can go with Hyundai and that if he said something is Hyundai's
position then that's what Hyundai the company stands behind. I asked
specifically if that was what I should feel free to pass on to any that
ask, and the customer affairs person said "It's a free country, do what
you want".

This next part will be technical stuff about EMC/EMI, so skip this if
you want...

Having worked as an EMC professional, I can say that Hyundai's apparent
lack of interest in this is common to those that really DON'T
understand EMC issues. I can only guess that the folks responsible for
EMC at Hyundai either are unaware of what's going on in this model, or
have had their decisions overridden by other authorities within
Hyundai. I don't honestly believe that another EMC professional would
experience this issue and decide to do NOTHING.

The nature of ALL EMC problems is that there are 3 component parts; a
generator of energy, a coupling mechanism for the energy, and a
receptor that is sensitive to the energy. In this case, the generator
is what the local service guy called the "power controller." This is
the thing I described earlier as running for approximately 15 seconds
after the key is moved from On to Acc.

We don't know what the coupling mechanism is in this case, and THAT is
what troubles me and should trouble Hyundai. There are two principal
coupling modes for EMI; radiation and conduction. If the source of the
EMI is a "power controller" and the coupling mode is conduction, then
it is totally possible that ALL the modules on the car are receiving
EMI polluted power. Given that, how do I know that any of the safety
critical systems won't sustain an EMI induced failure at a critical (to
my life) time. Technically, the same thing can apply to coupling via
radiation, it's just that the sensitivities (or susceptibilities if you
please) are usually a lot higher for radiated EMI.

So why not take the money offered for a radio fix? Because that's just
what it would be, a radio fix. I'm concerned, and I think Hyundai
should be concerned, about fixing the EMI problem and ALL of the real
and possible effects.

At this point, if I understand Hyundai Consumer Affairs properly, there
are no other avenues of addressing this problem, so the hopes of
getting the EMI problem addressed are fading. My hope is that readers
of my experiences with this issue will include this information in
their car-buying decision. I can't tell you what impact this should
have on your decisions. I can only say that my opinion of Hyundai
quality and customer care aren't what they used to be. And while I'm
hearing that EMI in my radio, I'll always be thinking "I wonder what
that's doing to the rest of the car."

Regards to all.

ACA856

"JohnInRochester" wrote:
> ..
> >
> > I have the SAME problem with AM radio when I set the cruise
> control,
> I
> > get a buzzing noise. Called the dealer, they are aware of
> the
> problem
> > and will be replacing the system.
> >
> > Ontario Canada.
> >
> > Rob.
> >
> > --
> > Posted using the http://www.autoforumz.com interface, at author's
> request
> > Articles individually checked for conformance to usenet
> standards
> > Topic URL:
> http://www.autoforumz.com/Hyundai-20...ict109711.html
> > Visit Topic URL to contact author (reg. req'd). Report
> abuse:
> http://www.autoforumz.com/eform.php?p=519634
>
> Here's an update for the group about how my situation is
> working out.
>
> Took the Elantra in to the local dealer so they could hear the
> problem.
> Ends up that ALL '05 Elantras with the H290 (CD) radio on
> their lot
> experience this problem. They replaced the radio to try to fix
> the
> problem; and it did get a little better, but certainly not
> anywhere
> close to all the other Hyundai models and every other
> Make/Model I've
> driven over the past couple of years (20+ different models due
> to
> frequent rental).
>
> Ends up that the District Parts and Service Manager for
> Rochester was
> at the dealer today, so I went back for him to listen to and
> talk about
> the situation. He offered to pay up to $100 to have someone
> else
> address it (as long as I did all the work like selecting the
> service
> provider, paying for it, investing my time, etc.). I refused
> this offer
> for the reasons you'll see below. I asked specifically if the
> Hyundai
> factory was aware of this condition and he indicated that they
> must be
> since ALL the similar Elantras are that way. I then asked if
> Hyundai
> intended to address this in any way and he said no. I put in a
> call to
> Hyundai Consumer Affairs and learned that a District Manager
> is as far
> as you can go with Hyundai and that if he said something is
> Hyundai's
> position then that's what Hyundai the company stands behind. I
> asked
> specifically if that was what I should feel free to pass on to
> any that
> ask, and the customer affairs person said "It's a free
> country, do what
> you want".
>
> This next part will be technical stuff about EMC/EMI, so skip
> this if
> you want...
>
> Having worked as an EMC professional, I can say that Hyundai's
> apparent
> lack of interest in this is common to those that really DON'T
> understand EMC issues. I can only guess that the folks
> responsible for
> EMC at Hyundai either are unaware of what's going on in this
> model, or
> have had their decisions overridden by other authorities
> within
> Hyundai. I don't honestly believe that another EMC
> professional would
> experience this issue and decide to do NOTHING.
>
> The nature of ALL EMC problems is that there are 3 component
> parts; a
> generator of energy, a coupling mechanism for the energy, and
> a
> receptor that is sensitive to the energy. In this case, the
> generator
> is what the local service guy called the "power controller."
> This is
> the thing I described earlier as running for approximately 15
> seconds
> after the key is moved from On to Acc.
>
> We don't know what the coupling mechanism is in this case, and
> THAT is
> what troubles me and should trouble Hyundai. There are two
> principal
> coupling modes for EMI; radiation and conduction. If the
> source of the
> EMI is a "power controller" and the coupling mode is
> conduction, then
> it is totally possible that ALL the modules on the car are
> receiving
> EMI polluted power. Given that, how do I know that any of the
> safety
> critical systems won't sustain an EMI induced failure at a
> critical (to
> my life) time. Technically, the same thing can apply to
> coupling via
> radiation, it's just that the sensitivities (or
> susceptibilities if you
> please) are usually a lot higher for radiated EMI.
>
> So why not take the money offered for a radio fix? Because
> that's just
> what it would be, a radio fix. I'm concerned, and I think
> Hyundai
> should be concerned, about fixing the EMI problem and ALL of
> the real
> and possible effects.
>
> At this point, if I understand Hyundai Consumer Affairs
> properly, there
> are no other avenues of addressing this problem, so the hopes
> of
> getting the EMI problem addressed are fading. My hope is that
> readers
> of my experiences with this issue will include this
> information in
> their car-buying decision. I can't tell you what impact this
> should
> have on your decisions. I can only say that my opinion of
> Hyundai
> quality and customer care aren't what they used to be. And
> while I'm
> hearing that EMI in my radio, I'll always be thinking "I
> wonder what
> that's doing to the rest of the car."
>
> Regards to all.

Interesting reply, thank you!

The dealer told me they will replace the radio as this is a known
problem. I will let them address it first by replacing the radio
which I am guessing will do nothing to alleviate the issue - but I
will post here again and let you know what happens. I am about 2
months away from my first service when they plan to replace the radio.

If the problem persists after they replace the radio, I will complain
again and let you know what their response is here in Canada...

Rob.