Matt Whiting

Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
> news:7B1zg.100$Db4.7767@news1.epix.net...
>
>
>
>>I agree it doesn't affect the functionality of the filter that lost the
>>gasket, but it may affect the functionality of the next filter if this
>>isn't discovered. It is a failure and thus a quality lapse. I'm
>>curious now to see how often this happens. If it happens again, I'll
>>switch to NAPA or another filter brand whose quality I trust. But I
>>have a whole case of Hyundai filters so that will be a while, lost
>>gaskets or not!
>>
>
>
> Therein lies the difference in how we look at these things. I look at that
> issue as two separate parts that can come apart with no problem in my mind.
> You see them as a quality problem. Two different perspectives. Both solved
> by the same technique of paying attention to the job at hand.

Having worked in a Fortune 500 company for many moons and growing up
with TQM, this is easily a quality problem. Quality is defined by most
quality professionals as "meeting the requirements." I'm not aware of
any requirement for an oil filter to leave its gasket behind on the
engine. Very few parts are designed to come apart during or after use.

Since I'm pretty sure this oil filter wasn't designed to leave its
gasket on the engine, when it does so, that is a failure.

Whether a failure of a part causes a greater failure of another part
isn't relevant to whether the first part has experienced a failure or
not. I agree that it is easy to mitigate the filter failure with some
careful attention, but that doesn't change the face that the Hyundai
filter failed.


Matt

Brian Nystrom

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
>> news:7B1zg.100$Db4.7767@news1.epix.net...
>>
>>
>>
>>> I agree it doesn't affect the functionality of the filter that lost the
>>> gasket, but it may affect the functionality of the next filter if this
>>> isn't discovered. It is a failure and thus a quality lapse. I'm
>>> curious now to see how often this happens. If it happens again, I'll
>>> switch to NAPA or another filter brand whose quality I trust. But I
>>> have a whole case of Hyundai filters so that will be a while, lost
>>> gaskets or not!
>>>
>>
>>
>> Therein lies the difference in how we look at these things. I look at
>> that
>> issue as two separate parts that can come apart with no problem in my
>> mind.
>> You see them as a quality problem. Two different perspectives. Both
>> solved
>> by the same technique of paying attention to the job at hand.
>
>
> Having worked in a Fortune 500 company for many moons and growing up
> with TQM, this is easily a quality problem. Quality is defined by most
> quality professionals as "meeting the requirements." I'm not aware of
> any requirement for an oil filter to leave its gasket behind on the
> engine. Very few parts are designed to come apart during or after use.
>
> Since I'm pretty sure this oil filter wasn't designed to leave its
> gasket on the engine, when it does so, that is a failure.
>
> Whether a failure of a part causes a greater failure of another part
> isn't relevant to whether the first part has experienced a failure or
> not. I agree that it is easy to mitigate the filter failure with some
> careful attention, but that doesn't change the face that the Hyundai
> filter failed.

Considering that you're the only person who has reported this here or on
any of the forums, it's probably an isolated incident. Did you remember
to oil the seal before you installed the filter?

Brian Nystrom

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
>> news:7B1zg.100$Db4.7767@news1.epix.net...
>>
>>
>>
>>> I agree it doesn't affect the functionality of the filter that lost the
>>> gasket, but it may affect the functionality of the next filter if this
>>> isn't discovered. It is a failure and thus a quality lapse. I'm
>>> curious now to see how often this happens. If it happens again, I'll
>>> switch to NAPA or another filter brand whose quality I trust. But I
>>> have a whole case of Hyundai filters so that will be a while, lost
>>> gaskets or not!
>>>
>>
>>
>> Therein lies the difference in how we look at these things. I look at
>> that
>> issue as two separate parts that can come apart with no problem in my
>> mind.
>> You see them as a quality problem. Two different perspectives. Both
>> solved
>> by the same technique of paying attention to the job at hand.
>
>
> Having worked in a Fortune 500 company for many moons and growing up
> with TQM, this is easily a quality problem. Quality is defined by most
> quality professionals as "meeting the requirements." I'm not aware of
> any requirement for an oil filter to leave its gasket behind on the
> engine. Very few parts are designed to come apart during or after use.
>
> Since I'm pretty sure this oil filter wasn't designed to leave its
> gasket on the engine, when it does so, that is a failure.
>
> Whether a failure of a part causes a greater failure of another part
> isn't relevant to whether the first part has experienced a failure or
> not. I agree that it is easy to mitigate the filter failure with some
> careful attention, but that doesn't change the face that the Hyundai
> filter failed.

Considering that you're the only person who has reported this here or on
any of the forums, it's probably an isolated incident. Did you remember
to oil the seal before you installed the filter?

Brian Nystrom

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
>> news:7B1zg.100$Db4.7767@news1.epix.net...
>>
>>
>>
>>> I agree it doesn't affect the functionality of the filter that lost the
>>> gasket, but it may affect the functionality of the next filter if this
>>> isn't discovered. It is a failure and thus a quality lapse. I'm
>>> curious now to see how often this happens. If it happens again, I'll
>>> switch to NAPA or another filter brand whose quality I trust. But I
>>> have a whole case of Hyundai filters so that will be a while, lost
>>> gaskets or not!
>>>
>>
>>
>> Therein lies the difference in how we look at these things. I look at
>> that
>> issue as two separate parts that can come apart with no problem in my
>> mind.
>> You see them as a quality problem. Two different perspectives. Both
>> solved
>> by the same technique of paying attention to the job at hand.
>
>
> Having worked in a Fortune 500 company for many moons and growing up
> with TQM, this is easily a quality problem. Quality is defined by most
> quality professionals as "meeting the requirements." I'm not aware of
> any requirement for an oil filter to leave its gasket behind on the
> engine. Very few parts are designed to come apart during or after use.
>
> Since I'm pretty sure this oil filter wasn't designed to leave its
> gasket on the engine, when it does so, that is a failure.
>
> Whether a failure of a part causes a greater failure of another part
> isn't relevant to whether the first part has experienced a failure or
> not. I agree that it is easy to mitigate the filter failure with some
> careful attention, but that doesn't change the face that the Hyundai
> filter failed.

Considering that you're the only person who has reported this here or on
any of the forums, it's probably an isolated incident. Did you remember
to oil the seal before you installed the filter?

Bob Adkins

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 19:48:57 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote:


>Yes, I'm surprised also as I've had exceptional mileage in the past from
>Michelins.

I usually get 40K from my truck tires. I recently noticed my last set was
50% worn after 5K! I examined the tires closely, there were a bazillion
micro-cuts. I figure it's from frequently traveling a certain road that was
recently re-surfaced with small, sharp gravel. I'll be staying off of that
road for a couple of years until it breaks in!
--
Bob

Bob Adkins

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 19:48:57 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote:


>Yes, I'm surprised also as I've had exceptional mileage in the past from
>Michelins.

I usually get 40K from my truck tires. I recently noticed my last set was
50% worn after 5K! I examined the tires closely, there were a bazillion
micro-cuts. I figure it's from frequently traveling a certain road that was
recently re-surfaced with small, sharp gravel. I'll be staying off of that
road for a couple of years until it breaks in!
--
Bob

Bob Adkins

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 19:48:57 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote:


>Yes, I'm surprised also as I've had exceptional mileage in the past from
>Michelins.

I usually get 40K from my truck tires. I recently noticed my last set was
50% worn after 5K! I examined the tires closely, there were a bazillion
micro-cuts. I figure it's from frequently traveling a certain road that was
recently re-surfaced with small, sharp gravel. I'll be staying off of that
road for a couple of years until it breaks in!
--
Bob

Rev. Tom Wenndt

Brian Nystrom, on a thread about a gasket (o-ring) on a spin-on oil filter,
that got left behind on an engine, and caused problems when a 2nd oil filter
and gasket was installed, asked: "Did you remember to oil the seal before
you installed the filter?"......

You hit on it Brian. Over the course of years, I have had several of those
rubber o-rings that have fallen off the brand new oil filter as I was taking
them out of the boxes. I really do not know how well they are initially
placed onto the filter (or how well they are supposed to be). I have just
'laid' them back in there and it seems to be fine.

But in each case, I have put a film of oil on the o-ring before I put (spin)
the filter into place. Every time, that has done the trick, and the o-ring
and filter come off just fine and together. In fact, now that it has been
mentioned here, I realize that this little trick must work extremely well,
because although they have fallen off for me coming out of the box, I have
never even had to think about the o-ring still being on the engine filter
mount after they have been removed.

Clearly some of the filter companies are thinking about making sure they
come off though. Some of the better filters have the o-rings coated with
PTFE (think Slick 50). But it could be that this is for the percentage of
people who don't put a film of oil on their filter o-rings (there must be at
least some who don't). In my world, I don't see it as needed.

I do agree that doing the job right helps make sure that can't happen. When
my filters are off, I am inspecting and cleaning the engine filter mounting
base, wiping off oil, checking its condition, etc. If the o-ring stayed
behind, I just can't believe that between seeing that it is not on the
filter I just took off and seeing that it is on the base I am cleaning that
I could ever miss that - it is just too obvious.

So, in my world, this is not a manufacturing defect. It is simply a sloppy
(and downright inexcusable) job by the person who changed the oil. In that
sense, what the dealership did (the extended warranty) was probably
appropriate.

I will say that, when I was a teenager, I had my oil changed once by a
garage. This was one of those old-style cartridge types. Along with the
filter came an o-ring. But replacing it was a separate and much more
tedious process, and I think most people just threw those away.

But the owner of this garage surmised that the filter maker must want you to
replace it or they wouldn't have included it in the package. So he always
did. At the particualar time my oil was changed, one of his workers, a
young man who went to my church, did the oil change.

Sadly, he also added the new gasket without taking the old one out. I
spotted the stream of oil in my driveway and even followed it a quarter mile
down the road, and realized something was very wrong. I called the garage,
filled the car with oil, got it back there and fixed, and all was well. The
worker was fired.

I wonder if the worker who did this to this man's car suffered the same
fate, since this was much easier to do and see than what happened to my
fellow church-mate??

Tom Wenndt

Rev. Tom Wenndt

Brian Nystrom, on a thread about a gasket (o-ring) on a spin-on oil filter,
that got left behind on an engine, and caused problems when a 2nd oil filter
and gasket was installed, asked: "Did you remember to oil the seal before
you installed the filter?"......

You hit on it Brian. Over the course of years, I have had several of those
rubber o-rings that have fallen off the brand new oil filter as I was taking
them out of the boxes. I really do not know how well they are initially
placed onto the filter (or how well they are supposed to be). I have just
'laid' them back in there and it seems to be fine.

But in each case, I have put a film of oil on the o-ring before I put (spin)
the filter into place. Every time, that has done the trick, and the o-ring
and filter come off just fine and together. In fact, now that it has been
mentioned here, I realize that this little trick must work extremely well,
because although they have fallen off for me coming out of the box, I have
never even had to think about the o-ring still being on the engine filter
mount after they have been removed.

Clearly some of the filter companies are thinking about making sure they
come off though. Some of the better filters have the o-rings coated with
PTFE (think Slick 50). But it could be that this is for the percentage of
people who don't put a film of oil on their filter o-rings (there must be at
least some who don't). In my world, I don't see it as needed.

I do agree that doing the job right helps make sure that can't happen. When
my filters are off, I am inspecting and cleaning the engine filter mounting
base, wiping off oil, checking its condition, etc. If the o-ring stayed
behind, I just can't believe that between seeing that it is not on the
filter I just took off and seeing that it is on the base I am cleaning that
I could ever miss that - it is just too obvious.

So, in my world, this is not a manufacturing defect. It is simply a sloppy
(and downright inexcusable) job by the person who changed the oil. In that
sense, what the dealership did (the extended warranty) was probably
appropriate.

I will say that, when I was a teenager, I had my oil changed once by a
garage. This was one of those old-style cartridge types. Along with the
filter came an o-ring. But replacing it was a separate and much more
tedious process, and I think most people just threw those away.

But the owner of this garage surmised that the filter maker must want you to
replace it or they wouldn't have included it in the package. So he always
did. At the particualar time my oil was changed, one of his workers, a
young man who went to my church, did the oil change.

Sadly, he also added the new gasket without taking the old one out. I
spotted the stream of oil in my driveway and even followed it a quarter mile
down the road, and realized something was very wrong. I called the garage,
filled the car with oil, got it back there and fixed, and all was well. The
worker was fired.

I wonder if the worker who did this to this man's car suffered the same
fate, since this was much easier to do and see than what happened to my
fellow church-mate??

Tom Wenndt

Rev. Tom Wenndt

Brian Nystrom, on a thread about a gasket (o-ring) on a spin-on oil filter,
that got left behind on an engine, and caused problems when a 2nd oil filter
and gasket was installed, asked: "Did you remember to oil the seal before
you installed the filter?"......

You hit on it Brian. Over the course of years, I have had several of those
rubber o-rings that have fallen off the brand new oil filter as I was taking
them out of the boxes. I really do not know how well they are initially
placed onto the filter (or how well they are supposed to be). I have just
'laid' them back in there and it seems to be fine.

But in each case, I have put a film of oil on the o-ring before I put (spin)
the filter into place. Every time, that has done the trick, and the o-ring
and filter come off just fine and together. In fact, now that it has been
mentioned here, I realize that this little trick must work extremely well,
because although they have fallen off for me coming out of the box, I have
never even had to think about the o-ring still being on the engine filter
mount after they have been removed.

Clearly some of the filter companies are thinking about making sure they
come off though. Some of the better filters have the o-rings coated with
PTFE (think Slick 50). But it could be that this is for the percentage of
people who don't put a film of oil on their filter o-rings (there must be at
least some who don't). In my world, I don't see it as needed.

I do agree that doing the job right helps make sure that can't happen. When
my filters are off, I am inspecting and cleaning the engine filter mounting
base, wiping off oil, checking its condition, etc. If the o-ring stayed
behind, I just can't believe that between seeing that it is not on the
filter I just took off and seeing that it is on the base I am cleaning that
I could ever miss that - it is just too obvious.

So, in my world, this is not a manufacturing defect. It is simply a sloppy
(and downright inexcusable) job by the person who changed the oil. In that
sense, what the dealership did (the extended warranty) was probably
appropriate.

I will say that, when I was a teenager, I had my oil changed once by a
garage. This was one of those old-style cartridge types. Along with the
filter came an o-ring. But replacing it was a separate and much more
tedious process, and I think most people just threw those away.

But the owner of this garage surmised that the filter maker must want you to
replace it or they wouldn't have included it in the package. So he always
did. At the particualar time my oil was changed, one of his workers, a
young man who went to my church, did the oil change.

Sadly, he also added the new gasket without taking the old one out. I
spotted the stream of oil in my driveway and even followed it a quarter mile
down the road, and realized something was very wrong. I called the garage,
filled the car with oil, got it back there and fixed, and all was well. The
worker was fired.

I wonder if the worker who did this to this man's car suffered the same
fate, since this was much easier to do and see than what happened to my
fellow church-mate??

Tom Wenndt

hyundaitech

It's been my experience that the original factory filter leaves its gasket
with a much higher frequencey than any installed later. I suspect it has
something to do with surface preparation and how tightly the filter is
installed (originals are rather tight).

You'll notice your new oil filters have a clear plastic covering over one
end. More freqently, I encounter the gasket sticking to the plastic, so
when you take it off, make sure the gasket is still positioned properly
before installing the filter on the car.

hyundaitech

It's been my experience that the original factory filter leaves its gasket
with a much higher frequencey than any installed later. I suspect it has
something to do with surface preparation and how tightly the filter is
installed (originals are rather tight).

You'll notice your new oil filters have a clear plastic covering over one
end. More freqently, I encounter the gasket sticking to the plastic, so
when you take it off, make sure the gasket is still positioned properly
before installing the filter on the car.

hyundaitech

It's been my experience that the original factory filter leaves its gasket
with a much higher frequencey than any installed later. I suspect it has
something to do with surface preparation and how tightly the filter is
installed (originals are rather tight).

You'll notice your new oil filters have a clear plastic covering over one
end. More freqently, I encounter the gasket sticking to the plastic, so
when you take it off, make sure the gasket is still positioned properly
before installing the filter on the car.

Rev. Tom Wenndt

Mr. Hyundaitech, this just begs a question.

It was through the owner's (or service) manual of car after car I have owned
that I learned how badly oil filters and oil drain plugs were being
overtightened.

If the manufacturers set the tightening specs, why do they not adhere to
them? Indeed, every new vehicle I have ever owned has had both tightened
plug and filter even tighter then they are left after a fast oil change -
and that's saying something.

In my world, either the specs mean something or they don't. What am I
missing here?

Tom Wenndt


"hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> wrote in message
news:fecd3298f3dfb59f00da6014d607d127@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
> It's been my experience that the original factory filter leaves its gasket
> with a much higher frequencey than any installed later. I suspect it has
> something to do with surface preparation and how tightly the filter is
> installed (originals are rather tight).
>
> You'll notice your new oil filters have a clear plastic covering over one
> end. More freqently, I encounter the gasket sticking to the plastic, so
> when you take it off, make sure the gasket is still positioned properly
> before installing the filter on the car.
>

Rev. Tom Wenndt

Mr. Hyundaitech, this just begs a question.

It was through the owner's (or service) manual of car after car I have owned
that I learned how badly oil filters and oil drain plugs were being
overtightened.

If the manufacturers set the tightening specs, why do they not adhere to
them? Indeed, every new vehicle I have ever owned has had both tightened
plug and filter even tighter then they are left after a fast oil change -
and that's saying something.

In my world, either the specs mean something or they don't. What am I
missing here?

Tom Wenndt


"hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> wrote in message
news:fecd3298f3dfb59f00da6014d607d127@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
> It's been my experience that the original factory filter leaves its gasket
> with a much higher frequencey than any installed later. I suspect it has
> something to do with surface preparation and how tightly the filter is
> installed (originals are rather tight).
>
> You'll notice your new oil filters have a clear plastic covering over one
> end. More freqently, I encounter the gasket sticking to the plastic, so
> when you take it off, make sure the gasket is still positioned properly
> before installing the filter on the car.
>