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Re: 87 octane '06 Sonata
-- Rob "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message news:_9UBf.5550$lb.480874@news1.epix.net... > Rob wrote: > >> I stick to "name brand" stations. (BP, Chevron and sometimes Racetrack) >> They all ping with 87 octane. Runs great on 89. No big deal its just >> Hyundai says 87. > > Well, it does cost several cents more per gallon so it may be a big deal > over time. I specifically asked the salesman about this before buying my > I4 Sonata and he said 87 was fine. So far, he has been right, however, > pinging typically occurs during warmer weather and it hasn't been above 45 > since I bought mine. July and August will be the test for me. > Florida here, summer all the time. > > Matt |
Re: 87 octane '06 Sonata
Rev. Tom Wenndt wrote:
> I think you guys need to move to the Midwest (NOT necessarily into a big > city like Chicago, either). > > In the Midwest, because of ethanol subsidies, 89 fuel is actually cheaper > than 87, especially in states like Iowa and Illinois. I run all my vehicles > on 89 out here. When I drive outside the midwest, they all run on 87 just > fine. > > In the Midwest, no dealer would be allowed to treat their customers the way > some of you are treated at some of your dealerships. Since even Toyota and > Honda still fight for recognition in these parts, you can be sure that > customers for nameplates like Hyundai and Kia are going to be treated like > kings and queens. Indeed, we would make sure these people would not even > eat if they didn't (and some have not). > > On the subject, a little light pinging apparently is not bad for a vehicle, > and General Motors even claims it is preferable, giving you the "greatest > efficiency" for your fuel. Heavy, consistent pinging, especially under > acceleration IS a concern. Where does GM say that? I think that is just an excuse for poor engine design and management. I've never read any legimate source that said detonation is good for an engine. And most engine makers go to great lengths to prevent it. I'm not saying it causes instant death as it seldom does, but heavy pinging under a heavy load can trash your pistons in short order. Matt |
Re: 87 octane '06 Sonata
Rev. Tom Wenndt wrote:
> I think you guys need to move to the Midwest (NOT necessarily into a big > city like Chicago, either). > > In the Midwest, because of ethanol subsidies, 89 fuel is actually cheaper > than 87, especially in states like Iowa and Illinois. I run all my vehicles > on 89 out here. When I drive outside the midwest, they all run on 87 just > fine. > > In the Midwest, no dealer would be allowed to treat their customers the way > some of you are treated at some of your dealerships. Since even Toyota and > Honda still fight for recognition in these parts, you can be sure that > customers for nameplates like Hyundai and Kia are going to be treated like > kings and queens. Indeed, we would make sure these people would not even > eat if they didn't (and some have not). > > On the subject, a little light pinging apparently is not bad for a vehicle, > and General Motors even claims it is preferable, giving you the "greatest > efficiency" for your fuel. Heavy, consistent pinging, especially under > acceleration IS a concern. Where does GM say that? I think that is just an excuse for poor engine design and management. I've never read any legimate source that said detonation is good for an engine. And most engine makers go to great lengths to prevent it. I'm not saying it causes instant death as it seldom does, but heavy pinging under a heavy load can trash your pistons in short order. Matt |
Re: 87 octane '06 Sonata
Rev. Tom Wenndt wrote:
> I think you guys need to move to the Midwest (NOT necessarily into a big > city like Chicago, either). > > In the Midwest, because of ethanol subsidies, 89 fuel is actually cheaper > than 87, especially in states like Iowa and Illinois. I run all my vehicles > on 89 out here. When I drive outside the midwest, they all run on 87 just > fine. > > In the Midwest, no dealer would be allowed to treat their customers the way > some of you are treated at some of your dealerships. Since even Toyota and > Honda still fight for recognition in these parts, you can be sure that > customers for nameplates like Hyundai and Kia are going to be treated like > kings and queens. Indeed, we would make sure these people would not even > eat if they didn't (and some have not). > > On the subject, a little light pinging apparently is not bad for a vehicle, > and General Motors even claims it is preferable, giving you the "greatest > efficiency" for your fuel. Heavy, consistent pinging, especially under > acceleration IS a concern. Where does GM say that? I think that is just an excuse for poor engine design and management. I've never read any legimate source that said detonation is good for an engine. And most engine makers go to great lengths to prevent it. I'm not saying it causes instant death as it seldom does, but heavy pinging under a heavy load can trash your pistons in short order. Matt |
Re: 87 octane '06 Sonata
I will do one better than that. I am still looking for when Consumer
Reports last did a report on gasoline. But whenever that was, even they also said, "Don't worry about some occasional light pinging - DO worry about consistent, heavy pinging, especially under acceleration." I'm with you. I don't like it even a little bit, and when I hear even a single ping or two (and I know that this is what I am hearing), I go to a higher octane fuel. And as I also mentioned, I would expect the problem only to get worse through time. Agree with another writer - the problem seemed to be less in the Winter then in the Summer in the vehicles where I had this problem (none recently). Tom Wenndt "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message news:%U1Cf.5564$lb.481731@news1.epix.net... > Rev. Tom Wenndt wrote: > >> I think you guys need to move to the Midwest (NOT necessarily into a big >> city like Chicago, either). >> >> In the Midwest, because of ethanol subsidies, 89 fuel is actually cheaper >> than 87, especially in states like Iowa and Illinois. I run all my >> vehicles on 89 out here. When I drive outside the midwest, they all run >> on 87 just fine. >> >> In the Midwest, no dealer would be allowed to treat their customers the >> way some of you are treated at some of your dealerships. Since even >> Toyota and Honda still fight for recognition in these parts, you can be >> sure that customers for nameplates like Hyundai and Kia are going to be >> treated like kings and queens. Indeed, we would make sure these people >> would not even eat if they didn't (and some have not). >> >> On the subject, a little light pinging apparently is not bad for a >> vehicle, and General Motors even claims it is preferable, giving you the >> "greatest efficiency" for your fuel. Heavy, consistent pinging, >> especially under acceleration IS a concern. > > Where does GM say that? I think that is just an excuse for poor engine > design and management. I've never read any legimate source that said > detonation is good for an engine. And most engine makers go to great > lengths to prevent it. > > I'm not saying it causes instant death as it seldom does, but heavy > pinging under a heavy load can trash your pistons in short order. > > > Matt |
Re: 87 octane '06 Sonata
I will do one better than that. I am still looking for when Consumer
Reports last did a report on gasoline. But whenever that was, even they also said, "Don't worry about some occasional light pinging - DO worry about consistent, heavy pinging, especially under acceleration." I'm with you. I don't like it even a little bit, and when I hear even a single ping or two (and I know that this is what I am hearing), I go to a higher octane fuel. And as I also mentioned, I would expect the problem only to get worse through time. Agree with another writer - the problem seemed to be less in the Winter then in the Summer in the vehicles where I had this problem (none recently). Tom Wenndt "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message news:%U1Cf.5564$lb.481731@news1.epix.net... > Rev. Tom Wenndt wrote: > >> I think you guys need to move to the Midwest (NOT necessarily into a big >> city like Chicago, either). >> >> In the Midwest, because of ethanol subsidies, 89 fuel is actually cheaper >> than 87, especially in states like Iowa and Illinois. I run all my >> vehicles on 89 out here. When I drive outside the midwest, they all run >> on 87 just fine. >> >> In the Midwest, no dealer would be allowed to treat their customers the >> way some of you are treated at some of your dealerships. Since even >> Toyota and Honda still fight for recognition in these parts, you can be >> sure that customers for nameplates like Hyundai and Kia are going to be >> treated like kings and queens. Indeed, we would make sure these people >> would not even eat if they didn't (and some have not). >> >> On the subject, a little light pinging apparently is not bad for a >> vehicle, and General Motors even claims it is preferable, giving you the >> "greatest efficiency" for your fuel. Heavy, consistent pinging, >> especially under acceleration IS a concern. > > Where does GM say that? I think that is just an excuse for poor engine > design and management. I've never read any legimate source that said > detonation is good for an engine. And most engine makers go to great > lengths to prevent it. > > I'm not saying it causes instant death as it seldom does, but heavy > pinging under a heavy load can trash your pistons in short order. > > > Matt |
Re: 87 octane '06 Sonata
I will do one better than that. I am still looking for when Consumer
Reports last did a report on gasoline. But whenever that was, even they also said, "Don't worry about some occasional light pinging - DO worry about consistent, heavy pinging, especially under acceleration." I'm with you. I don't like it even a little bit, and when I hear even a single ping or two (and I know that this is what I am hearing), I go to a higher octane fuel. And as I also mentioned, I would expect the problem only to get worse through time. Agree with another writer - the problem seemed to be less in the Winter then in the Summer in the vehicles where I had this problem (none recently). Tom Wenndt "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message news:%U1Cf.5564$lb.481731@news1.epix.net... > Rev. Tom Wenndt wrote: > >> I think you guys need to move to the Midwest (NOT necessarily into a big >> city like Chicago, either). >> >> In the Midwest, because of ethanol subsidies, 89 fuel is actually cheaper >> than 87, especially in states like Iowa and Illinois. I run all my >> vehicles on 89 out here. When I drive outside the midwest, they all run >> on 87 just fine. >> >> In the Midwest, no dealer would be allowed to treat their customers the >> way some of you are treated at some of your dealerships. Since even >> Toyota and Honda still fight for recognition in these parts, you can be >> sure that customers for nameplates like Hyundai and Kia are going to be >> treated like kings and queens. Indeed, we would make sure these people >> would not even eat if they didn't (and some have not). >> >> On the subject, a little light pinging apparently is not bad for a >> vehicle, and General Motors even claims it is preferable, giving you the >> "greatest efficiency" for your fuel. Heavy, consistent pinging, >> especially under acceleration IS a concern. > > Where does GM say that? I think that is just an excuse for poor engine > design and management. I've never read any legimate source that said > detonation is good for an engine. And most engine makers go to great > lengths to prevent it. > > I'm not saying it causes instant death as it seldom does, but heavy > pinging under a heavy load can trash your pistons in short order. > > > Matt |
Re: 87 octane '06 Sonata
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:40:08 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote: >Rob wrote: > >> I have noticed a slight valve chatter with regular gas. It goes away with >> mid-level grade gas. Anyone else notice this. '06 Sonata LX (V6) >> > >I don't think fuel octane can have any bearing on the valve train. What >you are hearing typically is detonation, commonly called "pinging." >Typically, this will increase with more throttle at a given speed or at >lower RPMs (lugging). Octane increasing additives are used EXPLICITLY to reduce pinging or premature detonation. That is actually the only value with higher octane fuels since they have lower energy content than low octane fuels. Higher octane fuel may allow particular engines that need them perform better thus offsetting the lower energy content for those engines. gerry -- Personal home page - http://gogood.com gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots |
Re: 87 octane '06 Sonata
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:40:08 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote: >Rob wrote: > >> I have noticed a slight valve chatter with regular gas. It goes away with >> mid-level grade gas. Anyone else notice this. '06 Sonata LX (V6) >> > >I don't think fuel octane can have any bearing on the valve train. What >you are hearing typically is detonation, commonly called "pinging." >Typically, this will increase with more throttle at a given speed or at >lower RPMs (lugging). Octane increasing additives are used EXPLICITLY to reduce pinging or premature detonation. That is actually the only value with higher octane fuels since they have lower energy content than low octane fuels. Higher octane fuel may allow particular engines that need them perform better thus offsetting the lower energy content for those engines. gerry -- Personal home page - http://gogood.com gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots |
Re: 87 octane '06 Sonata
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:40:08 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote: >Rob wrote: > >> I have noticed a slight valve chatter with regular gas. It goes away with >> mid-level grade gas. Anyone else notice this. '06 Sonata LX (V6) >> > >I don't think fuel octane can have any bearing on the valve train. What >you are hearing typically is detonation, commonly called "pinging." >Typically, this will increase with more throttle at a given speed or at >lower RPMs (lugging). Octane increasing additives are used EXPLICITLY to reduce pinging or premature detonation. That is actually the only value with higher octane fuels since they have lower energy content than low octane fuels. Higher octane fuel may allow particular engines that need them perform better thus offsetting the lower energy content for those engines. gerry -- Personal home page - http://gogood.com gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots |
Re: 87 octane '06 Sonata
gerry wrote:
> [original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth] > On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:40:08 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote: > > >>Rob wrote: >> >> >>> I have noticed a slight valve chatter with regular gas. It goes away with >>>mid-level grade gas. Anyone else notice this. '06 Sonata LX (V6) >>> >> >>I don't think fuel octane can have any bearing on the valve train. What >>you are hearing typically is detonation, commonly called "pinging." >>Typically, this will increase with more throttle at a given speed or at >>lower RPMs (lugging). > > > Octane increasing additives are used EXPLICITLY to reduce pinging or > premature detonation. That is actually the only value with higher octane > fuels since they have lower energy content than low octane fuels. True, but what is your point? This has nothing to do with the VALVE train, which was my point. And there is no such thing is premature detonation. There is preignition and there is detonation, there isn't premature detonation. All detonation is undesirable, no matter when it occurs. > Higher octane fuel may allow particular engines that need them perform > better thus offsetting the lower energy content for those engines. True. Most modern engines have knock sensors to detect detonation. When this is detected the engine control computer will typically retard the timing until the pinging stops. This will reduce the performance of the engine. If higher octane fuel prevents this, then it can increase the performance of such an engine. But this still has nothing to do with the valve train. :-) Matt |
Re: 87 octane '06 Sonata
gerry wrote:
> [original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth] > On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:40:08 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote: > > >>Rob wrote: >> >> >>> I have noticed a slight valve chatter with regular gas. It goes away with >>>mid-level grade gas. Anyone else notice this. '06 Sonata LX (V6) >>> >> >>I don't think fuel octane can have any bearing on the valve train. What >>you are hearing typically is detonation, commonly called "pinging." >>Typically, this will increase with more throttle at a given speed or at >>lower RPMs (lugging). > > > Octane increasing additives are used EXPLICITLY to reduce pinging or > premature detonation. That is actually the only value with higher octane > fuels since they have lower energy content than low octane fuels. True, but what is your point? This has nothing to do with the VALVE train, which was my point. And there is no such thing is premature detonation. There is preignition and there is detonation, there isn't premature detonation. All detonation is undesirable, no matter when it occurs. > Higher octane fuel may allow particular engines that need them perform > better thus offsetting the lower energy content for those engines. True. Most modern engines have knock sensors to detect detonation. When this is detected the engine control computer will typically retard the timing until the pinging stops. This will reduce the performance of the engine. If higher octane fuel prevents this, then it can increase the performance of such an engine. But this still has nothing to do with the valve train. :-) Matt |
Re: 87 octane '06 Sonata
gerry wrote:
> [original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth] > On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:40:08 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote: > > >>Rob wrote: >> >> >>> I have noticed a slight valve chatter with regular gas. It goes away with >>>mid-level grade gas. Anyone else notice this. '06 Sonata LX (V6) >>> >> >>I don't think fuel octane can have any bearing on the valve train. What >>you are hearing typically is detonation, commonly called "pinging." >>Typically, this will increase with more throttle at a given speed or at >>lower RPMs (lugging). > > > Octane increasing additives are used EXPLICITLY to reduce pinging or > premature detonation. That is actually the only value with higher octane > fuels since they have lower energy content than low octane fuels. True, but what is your point? This has nothing to do with the VALVE train, which was my point. And there is no such thing is premature detonation. There is preignition and there is detonation, there isn't premature detonation. All detonation is undesirable, no matter when it occurs. > Higher octane fuel may allow particular engines that need them perform > better thus offsetting the lower energy content for those engines. True. Most modern engines have knock sensors to detect detonation. When this is detected the engine control computer will typically retard the timing until the pinging stops. This will reduce the performance of the engine. If higher octane fuel prevents this, then it can increase the performance of such an engine. But this still has nothing to do with the valve train. :-) Matt |
Re: 87 octane '06 Sonata
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:51:23 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote: >gerry wrote: >> [original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth] >> On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:40:08 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote: >> >> >>>Rob wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I have noticed a slight valve chatter with regular gas. It goes away with >>>>mid-level grade gas. Anyone else notice this. '06 Sonata LX (V6) >>>> >>> >>>I don't think fuel octane can have any bearing on the valve train. What >>>you are hearing typically is detonation, commonly called "pinging." >>>Typically, this will increase with more throttle at a given speed or at >>>lower RPMs (lugging). >> >> >> Octane increasing additives are used EXPLICITLY to reduce pinging or >> premature detonation. That is actually the only value with higher octane >> fuels since they have lower energy content than low octane fuels. > >True, but what is your point? This has nothing to do with the VALVE >train, which was my point. > >And there is no such thing is premature detonation. There is >preignition and there is detonation, there isn't premature detonation. >All detonation is undesirable, no matter when it occurs. Seems we just are playing with words here ;) An internal combustion engine detonates it's charge. It is fairly violent compared to igniting a gas burner in a furnace, thus "detonation" is a reasonable word for "ignition" in this context.Whichever word you prefer, I believe we can agree "initiation of combustion" and it's timing, speed of progression and cause is what matters. >> Higher octane fuel may allow particular engines that need them perform >> better thus offsetting the lower energy content for those engines. > >True. Most modern engines have knock sensors to detect detonation. >When this is detected the engine control computer will typically retard >the timing until the pinging stops. This will reduce the performance of >the engine. If higher octane fuel prevents this, then it can increase >the performance of such an engine. >But this still has nothing to do with the valve train. :-) If the valves "chatter" with lower octane fuel as indicated in the original post but do not with higher octane fuel, it has something to do with the charge igniting before it should or the flame (blast) front traveling too fast. Delay in ignition or speed of the flame front is the only thing higher octane fuel changes. gerry -- Personal home page - http://gogood.com gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots |
Re: 87 octane '06 Sonata
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:51:23 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote: >gerry wrote: >> [original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth] >> On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:40:08 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote: >> >> >>>Rob wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I have noticed a slight valve chatter with regular gas. It goes away with >>>>mid-level grade gas. Anyone else notice this. '06 Sonata LX (V6) >>>> >>> >>>I don't think fuel octane can have any bearing on the valve train. What >>>you are hearing typically is detonation, commonly called "pinging." >>>Typically, this will increase with more throttle at a given speed or at >>>lower RPMs (lugging). >> >> >> Octane increasing additives are used EXPLICITLY to reduce pinging or >> premature detonation. That is actually the only value with higher octane >> fuels since they have lower energy content than low octane fuels. > >True, but what is your point? This has nothing to do with the VALVE >train, which was my point. > >And there is no such thing is premature detonation. There is >preignition and there is detonation, there isn't premature detonation. >All detonation is undesirable, no matter when it occurs. Seems we just are playing with words here ;) An internal combustion engine detonates it's charge. It is fairly violent compared to igniting a gas burner in a furnace, thus "detonation" is a reasonable word for "ignition" in this context.Whichever word you prefer, I believe we can agree "initiation of combustion" and it's timing, speed of progression and cause is what matters. >> Higher octane fuel may allow particular engines that need them perform >> better thus offsetting the lower energy content for those engines. > >True. Most modern engines have knock sensors to detect detonation. >When this is detected the engine control computer will typically retard >the timing until the pinging stops. This will reduce the performance of >the engine. If higher octane fuel prevents this, then it can increase >the performance of such an engine. >But this still has nothing to do with the valve train. :-) If the valves "chatter" with lower octane fuel as indicated in the original post but do not with higher octane fuel, it has something to do with the charge igniting before it should or the flame (blast) front traveling too fast. Delay in ignition or speed of the flame front is the only thing higher octane fuel changes. gerry -- Personal home page - http://gogood.com gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots |
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