Tom

There you go!!! The cheap of the cheap...................


"Edgar MacArthur" <edgarmac@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:tCK_i.5972$Y32.4306@trnddc04...
>I just saw a Purolator filter for the 07 Santa Fe: made in India.

Bob

"Deck" <decan9@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:37d024dedfc0f40ae66a68cebbf84551@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
> My fram for 06 sonata says "Made in Korea"
>
That's interesting in that mine did not specify. I posted a bunch of
pictures of it in the ~ June timeframe just after they appeared in the
stores. The failed filter was installed around the end of August. I looked
at the O-ring again, and it is still compressed looking.

Brian Nystrom

Didn't you just say that the country of origin was no indication of
quality? Or by "cheap", do you simply mean "least expensive".

Tom wrote:
> There you go!!! The cheap of the cheap...................
>
>
> "Edgar MacArthur" <edgarmac@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:tCK_i.5972$Y32.4306@trnddc04...
>> I just saw a Purolator filter for the 07 Santa Fe: made in India.

Brian Nystrom

Matt Whiting wrote:
> ']['unez wrote:
>> Well Brian, If this response was aimed at me ( actually it doesnt
>> matter who it was aimed at ) that is your opinion and you know what
>> they say about opinions !!!!! I have been using Fram Oil Filters in my
>> Vehicles and sold them in all 4 of my service stations for 40 YEARS
>> with not one complaint or not one problem in 40 years and just so you
>> have another of your opinions aired I also used Penzoil Oil all those
>> years untill Mobil 1 came out and I switched.... As you know or should
>> know EVERYBODY has parts fail, it doesnt matter if its Fram, Autolite,
>> WHOMEVER it does happen Just because you may have had a bad experiance
>> with a fram filter or read it someplace that doesnt mean you need to
>> condem them for every body else .
>
> Fram filters changed a lot over that time period. I used them in the
> early days as well and they were very good then. When Fram was acquired
> by a different company (forget the details now as it has been many years
> ago), the filters were redesigned to cut cost. They went from being a
> premium brand to being a bottom-tier brand almost overnight.
>
> Use what you will, but the standard Fram filters today just aren't high
> quality as several tear-downs have shown.
>
> Matt

Exactly. Moreover, when I checked the specs of the Fram filter for the
Elantra, the relief valve (bypass valve) pressure was well below
Hyundai's specifications. OTOH, Purolator filters ARE made to Hyundai's
factory specs. I imagine other reputable filters are also made to the
correct specs, but obviously, Fram doesn't care enough to do so, which
is more than good enough reason for me to avoid them like the plague.

Additionally, any company that sells "snake oil" such as filters that
contain Teflon (long ago disproved as a useful oil additive) and
nonsense like special filters for use with synthetic oils is highly
suspect. This silliness is all about marketing and increasing profits by
deceiving the public, not about protecting engines.

Plague Boy

Deck wrote:
> My fram for 06 sonata says "Made in Korea"

I'd DIE before I put that cheap Korean crap on my Hyundai.

PB

southluke

> GUEST wrote:
> Several Months ago, there was some discussion about aftermarket oil
filters
> for the Sonata. I had purchased a Fram PH9999. I took several
pictures of
> it - the filter, O rings, and took similar pictures of the genuine
Hyundai
> filter. Matt Whiting had the following to say: "The pictures
are very nice.
> In the pictures, it appears that both the filter media and the
inner o-rings
> (I think they are o-rings anyway) are a different color from the
Hyundai
> filter. This may be inconsequential or it may mean that these
materials are
> materially (pun intended!) different from the Hyundai filter. I'd
want to
> know if this was my engine."
>
> Well, Matt hit the nail on the head. Around the end of August, I
did an oil
> change, and installed the Fram filter in my 2006 Sonata. All was
well until
> I noticed the oil stain on my driveway yesterday. (My wife drives
the car).
> This morning, I looked under the hood, and found oil had been
leaking from
> between the cap and the filter housing. I tried to give it a turn,
and found
> it tight. I started the engine, and the entire filter housing was
almost
> immediately covered in oil. I took the filter cap off, hoping that
it wasn't
> cracked.
>
> It wasn't. The O ring for the cap was flat. It actually had
hardened. I've
> changed the oil in the car like 6 times now, and the Hyundai O ring
was
> still round and soft (flexible) when replaced. The Fram O ring
actually is
> now flat on the outside, and was really hard. I have pictures of
the Hyundai
> O ring I replaced it with up against the Fram O ring I removed. My
server is
> currently dead, so I anyone's got either a way to host them, or
suggestions
> as to how I can link to them, let me know (my email address is
valid), and
> I'll either email them to you, or follow whatever instructions so
everyone
> can see.
>
> I think a contributing factor was the cold weather we had the past
few
> days - pretty close to 30. I would have noticed the oil on the
driveway, and
> the way the oil flowed out, it would have made a really big puddle,
and ran
> the oil level down in the car. I suspect that as soon as the oil
warms, it
> quits leaking.
>
> I figure there's no point in trying to contact Fram about this - I
can
> picture how their customer service would react -
denial.

Wow! We have covered several areas. I have a BSEE,
MBA and Masters in Systems Engineering degrees. Have over 30 years
experience in product design and now work for a major airplane
manufacturing company (many billions) as an Avionics Engineer.

To evaluate an oil filter, one would need to know the specifications
of the product including the tolorances of the parts, the material
trace, the characteristics of the paper used in the filter, the
quality control system, etc. We do not have access to that kind of
info so just have to go by hearsay and experience.

I have found a couple of websites that have evaluated oil filters but
just take those inputs with a grain of salt. Also, I wonder about
the value of the filter with the high detergent oils we have today.

Medical question: I have an HMO and have had a couple of major
surguries over the years. One should be educated and well informed
before listening to any doctor. I investigate the ones I use very
thoroughly before using them. Money is not the determining factor
but past results are indicative of their quality.

When judging the quality of almost anything we purchase or use today
we are limited by time to do research and lack of available
information.

According to my training, a product should meet the listed
requirements but not be overdesigned to the point of waste. I'm sure
this is the attitude of Hyundai.

Bob

"Plague Boy" <plague_boy@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:13jnjvbotg1dv72@corp.supernews.com...
> Deck wrote:
>> My fram for 06 sonata says "Made in Korea"

That filter may well be a genuine Hyundai filter repackaged by Fram.
>
> I'd DIE before I put that cheap Korean crap on my Hyundai.
>
You've joking, right? Your car is "Made in Korea". Even if it's assembled
in the US, most of the parts are made in Korea.

Tom

I was using the comments of 'others' to show them that, if they were correct
in their proposition that country of origin makes them cheaper, then you
can't get any 'cheaper' than India. That was a revered Purolator filter
that was made in India, not a Fram. ALL companies under pricing pressure
are reverting to the lowest cost producer and making things 'just good
enough' to do the job. Fact of life.


"Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in message
newsIP_i.7884$NC.6970@trndny07...
> Didn't you just say that the country of origin was no indication of
> quality? Or by "cheap", do you simply mean "least expensive".
>
> Tom wrote:
>> There you go!!! The cheap of the cheap...................
>>
>>
>> "Edgar MacArthur" <edgarmac@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:tCK_i.5972$Y32.4306@trnddc04...
>>> I just saw a Purolator filter for the 07 Santa Fe: made in India.

Tom

Very well put, southluke.


"southluke" <luke.l.talley@boeing-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:P72dnVTS8cnWR6banZ2dnUVZ_v6rnZ2d@giganews.com ...
>
> > GUEST wrote:
> > Several Months ago, there was some discussion about aftermarket oil
> filters
> > for the Sonata. I had purchased a Fram PH9999. I took several
> pictures of
> > it - the filter, O rings, and took similar pictures of the genuine
> Hyundai
> > filter. Matt Whiting had the following to say: "The pictures
> are very nice.
> > In the pictures, it appears that both the filter media and the
> inner o-rings
> > (I think they are o-rings anyway) are a different color from the
> Hyundai
> > filter. This may be inconsequential or it may mean that these
> materials are
> > materially (pun intended!) different from the Hyundai filter. I'd
> want to
> > know if this was my engine."
> >
> > Well, Matt hit the nail on the head. Around the end of August, I
> did an oil
> > change, and installed the Fram filter in my 2006 Sonata. All was
> well until
> > I noticed the oil stain on my driveway yesterday. (My wife drives
> the car).
> > This morning, I looked under the hood, and found oil had been
> leaking from
> > between the cap and the filter housing. I tried to give it a turn,
> and found
> > it tight. I started the engine, and the entire filter housing was
> almost
> > immediately covered in oil. I took the filter cap off, hoping that
> it wasn't
> > cracked.
> >
> > It wasn't. The O ring for the cap was flat. It actually had
> hardened. I've
> > changed the oil in the car like 6 times now, and the Hyundai O ring
> was
> > still round and soft (flexible) when replaced. The Fram O ring
> actually is
> > now flat on the outside, and was really hard. I have pictures of
> the Hyundai
> > O ring I replaced it with up against the Fram O ring I removed. My
> server is
> > currently dead, so I anyone's got either a way to host them, or
> suggestions
> > as to how I can link to them, let me know (my email address is
> valid), and
> > I'll either email them to you, or follow whatever instructions so
> everyone
> > can see.
> >
> > I think a contributing factor was the cold weather we had the past
> few
> > days - pretty close to 30. I would have noticed the oil on the
> driveway, and
> > the way the oil flowed out, it would have made a really big puddle,
> and ran
> > the oil level down in the car. I suspect that as soon as the oil
> warms, it
> > quits leaking.
> >
> > I figure there's no point in trying to contact Fram about this - I
> can
> > picture how their customer service would react -
> denial.
>
> Wow! We have covered several areas. I have a BSEE,
> MBA and Masters in Systems Engineering degrees. Have over 30 years
> experience in product design and now work for a major airplane
> manufacturing company (many billions) as an Avionics Engineer.
>
> To evaluate an oil filter, one would need to know the specifications
> of the product including the tolorances of the parts, the material
> trace, the characteristics of the paper used in the filter, the
> quality control system, etc. We do not have access to that kind of
> info so just have to go by hearsay and experience.
>
> I have found a couple of websites that have evaluated oil filters but
> just take those inputs with a grain of salt. Also, I wonder about
> the value of the filter with the high detergent oils we have today.
>
> Medical question: I have an HMO and have had a couple of major
> surguries over the years. One should be educated and well informed
> before listening to any doctor. I investigate the ones I use very
> thoroughly before using them. Money is not the determining factor
> but past results are indicative of their quality.
>
> When judging the quality of almost anything we purchase or use today
> we are limited by time to do research and lack of available
> information.
>
> According to my training, a product should meet the listed
> requirements but not be overdesigned to the point of waste. I'm sure
> this is the attitude of Hyundai.
>

Matt Whiting

Tom wrote:
> Our 275 gallon containers routinely last 5 years or more carrying hazardous
> chemicals. It is scary when you relate that to what I said. I find it very
> strange that you never were under cost constraints. You must have been
> making the overpriced machinery that we bought. ) Our company was still
> 'small' enough to not be insulated from upper management. We routinely
> conversed and interacted with them. They actually knew what was going on at
> the 'floor' level - a trait missing in too many of our companies being run
> by MBA's and accountants.

I never said I wasn't under cost constraints. I said that I'd never had
a mandate from the CEO to to "make the product JUST good enough to pass
the tests."

I'm not insulated from upper management. I had the CEO, the President
and COO and the CTO in my lab just a few months ago and they are
visiting my project again next week...

Matt

Matt Whiting

Bob wrote:
> "Plague Boy" <plague_boy@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:13jnjvbotg1dv72@corp.supernews.com...
>> Deck wrote:
>>> My fram for 06 sonata says "Made in Korea"
>
> That filter may well be a genuine Hyundai filter repackaged by Fram.
>> I'd DIE before I put that cheap Korean crap on my Hyundai.
>>
> You've joking, right? Your car is "Made in Korea". Even if it's assembled
> in the US, most of the parts are made in Korea.
>
>

Gee, Bob, that one went WAY over your head. You need to get your
sarcasm detector fixed! :-)

Matt

Matt Whiting

southluke wrote:
> > GUEST wrote:
> > Several Months ago, there was some discussion about aftermarket oil
> filters
> > for the Sonata. I had purchased a Fram PH9999. I took several
> pictures of
> > it - the filter, O rings, and took similar pictures of the genuine
> Hyundai
> > filter. Matt Whiting had the following to say: "The pictures
> are very nice.
> > In the pictures, it appears that both the filter media and the
> inner o-rings
> > (I think they are o-rings anyway) are a different color from the
> Hyundai
> > filter. This may be inconsequential or it may mean that these
> materials are
> > materially (pun intended!) different from the Hyundai filter. I'd
> want to
> > know if this was my engine."
> >
> > Well, Matt hit the nail on the head. Around the end of August, I
> did an oil
> > change, and installed the Fram filter in my 2006 Sonata. All was
> well until
> > I noticed the oil stain on my driveway yesterday. (My wife drives
> the car).
> > This morning, I looked under the hood, and found oil had been
> leaking from
> > between the cap and the filter housing. I tried to give it a turn,
> and found
> > it tight. I started the engine, and the entire filter housing was
> almost
> > immediately covered in oil. I took the filter cap off, hoping that
> it wasn't
> > cracked.
> >
> > It wasn't. The O ring for the cap was flat. It actually had
> hardened. I've
> > changed the oil in the car like 6 times now, and the Hyundai O ring
> was
> > still round and soft (flexible) when replaced. The Fram O ring
> actually is
> > now flat on the outside, and was really hard. I have pictures of
> the Hyundai
> > O ring I replaced it with up against the Fram O ring I removed. My
> server is
> > currently dead, so I anyone's got either a way to host them, or
> suggestions
> > as to how I can link to them, let me know (my email address is
> valid), and
> > I'll either email them to you, or follow whatever instructions so
> everyone
> > can see.
> >
> > I think a contributing factor was the cold weather we had the past
> few
> > days - pretty close to 30. I would have noticed the oil on the
> driveway, and
> > the way the oil flowed out, it would have made a really big puddle,
> and ran
> > the oil level down in the car. I suspect that as soon as the oil
> warms, it
> > quits leaking.
> >
> > I figure there's no point in trying to contact Fram about this - I
> can
> > picture how their customer service would react -
> denial.
>
> Wow! We have covered several areas. I have a BSEE,
> MBA and Masters in Systems Engineering degrees. Have over 30 years
> experience in product design and now work for a major airplane
> manufacturing company (many billions) as an Avionics Engineer.

Wow, three degrees and still can't spell! :-)


> To evaluate an oil filter, one would need to know the specifications
> of the product including the tolorances of the parts, the material
> trace, the characteristics of the paper used in the filter, the
> quality control system, etc. We do not have access to that kind of
> info so just have to go by hearsay and experience.
>
> I have found a couple of websites that have evaluated oil filters but
> just take those inputs with a grain of salt. Also, I wonder about
> the value of the filter with the high detergent oils we have today.

What about high detergent filters causes you to question the value of an
oil filter?


> Medical question: I have an HMO and have had a couple of major
> surguries over the years. One should be educated and well informed
> before listening to any doctor. I investigate the ones I use very
> thoroughly before using them. Money is not the determining factor
> but past results are indicative of their quality.

Where was the medical question?


> When judging the quality of almost anything we purchase or use today
> we are limited by time to do research and lack of available
> information.

True, but a lot can be gleaned by inspection if you know what you are
looking for.


> According to my training, a product should meet the listed
> requirements but not be overdesigned to the point of waste. I'm sure
> this is the attitude of Hyundai.

True, again, but there is no single set of requirements for either oil
or oil filters. Do you want your oil to last 3,000 miles or 10,000
miles? Ditto the filter? I personally change my oil at 5,000 miles
when under warranty and 10,000 miles when out of warranty. The former
is almost certainly overkill for Mobil 1, but I don't want to risk a
warranty hassle. And I don't want to have to worry if I can't get to an
oil change for another 1,000 miles or so. If I was using an oil that
met just the minimum requirements to last 3,000 miles without engine
damage, then I have absolutely no margin for running to 4,000
occasionally. I personally like large margins for things like oil for
the occasional extreme conditions my car may encounter.

Matt

Bob

"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
news:bx4%i.822$2n4.24691@news1.epix.net...
> Bob wrote:
>> "Plague Boy" <plague_boy@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:13jnjvbotg1dv72@corp.supernews.com...
>>> Deck wrote:
>>>> My fram for 06 sonata says "Made in Korea"
>>
>> That filter may well be a genuine Hyundai filter repackaged by Fram.
>>> I'd DIE before I put that cheap Korean crap on my Hyundai.
>>>
>> You've joking, right? Your car is "Made in Korea". Even if it's
>> assembled in the US, most of the parts are made in Korea.
>
> Gee, Bob, that one went WAY over your head. You need to get your sarcasm
> detector fixed! :-)
>
> Matt

With the twist in the thread that occurred earlier, one just can't
tell......

Rob Smith

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 23:09:06 -0500, Bob wrote:

> Several Months ago, there was some discussion about aftermarket oil filters
> for the Sonata. I had purchased a Fram PH9999. I took several pictures of
> it - the filter, O rings, and took similar pictures of the genuine Hyundai
> filter... different from the Hyundai filter. I'd want to
> know if this was my engine."
>
> Well, Matt hit the nail on the head..
>
> I figure there's no point in trying to contact Fram about this - I can
> picture how their customer service would react - denial.

You might want to check out a friend of mine's web site. He did a fairly
exhaustive test of a number of OEM and aftermarket oil filters. The work
that Russ did is definitely worth checking out.

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html

Bob

"Rob Smith" <r_a_smith3530REMOVE@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:tfN5j.6479$AR7.5617@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
> On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 23:09:06 -0500, Bob wrote:
>
>> Several Months ago, there was some discussion about aftermarket oil
>> filters
>> for the Sonata. I had purchased a Fram PH9999. I took several pictures of
>> it - the filter, O rings, and took similar pictures of the genuine
>> Hyundai
>> filter... different from the Hyundai filter. I'd want to
>> know if this was my engine."
>>
>> Well, Matt hit the nail on the head..
>>
>> I figure there's no point in trying to contact Fram about this - I can
>> picture how their customer service would react - denial.
>
> You might want to check out a friend of mine's web site. He did a fairly
> exhaustive test of a number of OEM and aftermarket oil filters. The work
> that Russ did is definitely worth checking out.
>
> http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html

Two phone calls later, I finally received the "Product Evaluation Form" form
in the mail. I get to pay to "ship the package in such a way that you are
able to track it". I called back, and asked if they could send me a prepaid
shipping label, and their customer service rep tols me that I am responsible
for paying for shipping it, and that they do not refund shipping. Lets
see.... $5.00 shipping a $6.00 filter back so I can help them improve their
product. I could see doing this if it damaged my car. This is going to
happen to others, as there is nothing unusual about my car.

Maybe I'll just send the form back with the pictures of the mess, and the
flat O rings to honeywell corporate.

I get to say it with a justifiable reason: Fram makes substandard filters,
does NOT stand behind them, and does not take the steps necessary to address
the problem.