Pamela G.

Crud. I feel like I'm about to be pouring money down an endless pit.

I went to get a smog check for my 1991 Hyundai Excel. It flunked. The
guy showed me the printout and pointed to where it says the car can only
have a maximum of 847 polluting points, and my car showed 2,559 points,
making it a Gross Polluter. He said I need a new catalytic converter and
then it would pass.

I drove two blocks away and had the muffler guy install a new one for
$95.......I drive right back and have it tested again, and would you
believe it went from 2,559 points, to 3,428 Gross Polluting points!!!!
It actually tested WORSE with a new converter!!!

So now I'm asking him what happened?? How can this be? He tells me that
I should drive the car around and put about 50 miles on it and then he
will retest it and maybe it will pass?? I said what if it doesn't? He
said maybe you need and new ECR, or PCV, or some other 3 initial type
valve.......I'm so ticked off.

Does anyone have any advise for me? And how can my test results WORSEN
after I just put a new converter on??

hyundaitech

The reason is for the worse results is that your original converter was
probably fine and that new converters that can be installed for $95 don't
cost enough to cover the cost of the precious metals necessary to do a
good job. Can you have the original one put back on? You don't want to
hear the price of a new factory converter. It'll probably be close to
$1000.

To help you find out what may be wrong with the car, I'll need to know why
it failed. "Polluting points" don't give me much information, and in fact,
I've never even heard the term "polluting point." I'm interested in the
HC, CO, NOx, and any other specific readings that were taken, and the
maximum/minimum reading in each category. Also let me know what sort of
test was done (e.g. dynamometer, idling tailpipe).

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Pamela G.

After I read your post I jumped in the car and flew back to the muffler
shop to retrieve my old catalytic converter. I was shocked to find that
the muffler shop owner WOULD NOT let me have it!!...He said that the
state collects those from him and he has to have an old one for each new
one he sells ....Sounds like a bunch of BS to me.....but I wasn't going
to argue as it wouldn't of helped.

Yes, I don't think they're called polluting points either...lol! I
tried to scan the printout so I could post the numbers but my darn
scanner just went on the fritz. I'm thinking that posting a photo using
my camera would probably be too small to read. Would you happen to have
a fax number that I could zap you the page to?

Edwin Pawlowski

"Pamela G." <Peaches_27@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:12154-4805C699-6@storefull-3235.bay.webtv.net...
> After I read your post I jumped in the car and flew back to the muffler
> shop to retrieve my old catalytic converter. I was shocked to find that
> the muffler shop owner WOULD NOT let me have it!!...He said that the
> state collects those from him and he has to have an old one for each new
> one he sells ....Sounds like a bunch of BS to me.....but I wasn't going
> to argue as it wouldn't of helped.

They have high scrap value. I'm not sure of the number but we are talking
over $50, not pennies that steel alone would bring.

hyundaitech

Sounds like BS to me, too. Not sure what state you're in, or what their
regulations are, but that sounds rather odd. The scrap value is indeed
high, as Edwin states. Check your local regulations about return of old
parts. Most jurisdictions have laws that require shops to return parts to
customers at their request. Since you left without requesting the parts,
you may no longer have standing, but by the same token, they still had it
and refused to give it to you. The local BBB or consumer assistance
office may be able to help you on this.

As far as the numbers go, just type them in. I suspect there are about
four readings. Just tell me the heading, the reading, and the max/min
allowable entry.

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hyundaitech

Also, is your check engine lamp on?

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Old_Timer

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:43:47 -0500, "hyundaitech"
<notpublic@not.public.com> wrote:

>The reason is for the worse results is that your original converter was
>probably fine and that new converters that can be installed for $95 don't
>cost enough to cover the cost of the precious metals necessary to do a
>good job. Can you have the original one put back on? You don't want to
>hear the price of a new factory converter. It'll probably be close to
>$1000.
>
>To help you find out what may be wrong with the car, I'll need to know why
>it failed. "Polluting points" don't give me much information, and in fact,
>I've never even heard the term "polluting point." I'm interested in the
>HC, CO, NOx, and any other specific readings that were taken, and the
>maximum/minimum reading in each category. Also let me know what sort of
>test was done (e.g. dynamometer, idling tailpipe).

I learned a lesson about cheap cat convertors with my Dodge truck. A
shop had the cats advertised for $119 installed. I had one put on and
the truck passed smog, but the when the next smog test cycle after
that came around it failed. I had to have another new cat put on.
The next one I had installed cost $400 plus labor. It remains for me
to find out how long this one will get me through the smog checks.
Longer than the $119 one, I hope.

Old_Timer

Mike Marlow

<Old_Timer> wrote in message
news:gkdc041nv2375kcne86ba3trtu0i3fo5jr@4ax.com...

>
> I learned a lesson about cheap cat convertors with my Dodge truck. A
> shop had the cats advertised for $119 installed. I had one put on and
> the truck passed smog, but the when the next smog test cycle after
> that came around it failed. I had to have another new cat put on.
> The next one I had installed cost $400 plus labor. It remains for me
> to find out how long this one will get me through the smog checks.
> Longer than the $119 one, I hope.
>

Your experience may well be reflective of cheap parts quality, but it may
also be reflective of other things. Cats usually hold up - even cheap ones.
That is, unless you have other problems. Engine misfires will eat up cats.
Many people overlook engine misfire codes since they are somewhat transient.
The ramifications of these transients can be expensive though.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

Pamela G.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

>>They have high scrap value. I'm not sure of
>>the number but we are talking over $50, not
>>pennies that steel alone would bring.

A-ha! That explains why he wouldn't remove his grubby little paws off
the converter! That's a nice chunk of change. I'm surprised that crooks
haven't resorted to stealing those for scrap. ( I guess technically that
just happened to me..Ha!)

Heck, it's pretty bad here in California as they are digging through
parks and school yards ripping out the copper wire to sell for scrap.

Pamela G.

Hyundaitech, I'm in California, and the engine light isn't coming
on....not yet anyway...Ha!!

I took photos of the numbers. The yellow highlighter marks are from the
smog tech guy.

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836.../313605467.jpg
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836.../313605234.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836.../313605063.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836.../313604916.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836.../313604631.jpg

Edwin Pawlowski

"Pamela G." <Peaches_27@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8477-48070CD7-144@storefull-3233.bay.webtv.net...

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

>>They have high scrap value. I'm not sure of
>>the number but we are talking over $50, not
>>pennies that steel alone would bring.

A-ha! That explains why he wouldn't remove his grubby little paws off
the converter! That's a nice chunk of change. I'm surprised that crooks
haven't resorted to stealing those for scrap. ( I guess technically that
just happened to me..Ha!)

Heck, it's pretty bad here in California as they are digging through
parks and school yards ripping out the copper wire to sell for scrap.

*********************************

I've not heard of it locally, but I understand they are being stolen in some
places, rigt from under your parked car. As for copper, a nearby church
had copper roof flashing stolen during Good Friday services.

Mike Marlow

"Pamela G." <Peaches_27@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8477-48070CD7-144@storefull-3233.bay.webtv.net...

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

>>They have high scrap value. I'm not sure of
>>the number but we are talking over $50, not
>>pennies that steel alone would bring.

> A-ha! That explains why he wouldn't remove his grubby little paws off
> the converter! That's a nice chunk of change. I'm surprised that crooks
> haven't resorted to stealing those for scrap. ( I guess technically that
> just happened to me..Ha!)

I guess not. Didn't you say it was a day or two later that you went back to
him? How long should he hold the part, just in case you might decide you
want it back? What about core parts? It is common to require the old part
to be turned in as part of the price of the new part.

That said - converter theft is actually on the rise. Thieves have taken to
cutting them right off cars parked during the night.


--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

Partner

From the California Department of Consumer Affairs web site :

NO (PPM): Oxides of nitrogen (more commonly called NOx) are odorless gases
that help form smog, and give smog its characteristic brown color. NO is
produced when temperatures in the combustion chambers exceed 2500 degrees
Fahrenheit. Excessive engine temperatures could be caused by a lean fuel
mixture, by retarded timing, by carbon buildup inside the combustion
chamber, or by a malfunctioning engine cooling system. The function of the
EGR System is to reduce NO. Unhealthy levels of NO emissions result in a
vehicle failing its Smog Check. NO is measured in parts per million (PPM).


--


"Pamela G." <Peaches_27@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8477-48071D8A-149@storefull-3233.bay.webtv.net...
>
> Hyundaitech, I'm in California, and the engine light isn't coming
> on....not yet anyway...Ha!!
>
> I took photos of the numbers. The yellow highlighter marks are from the
> smog tech guy.
>
> http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836.../313605467.jpg
> http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836.../313605234.jpg
>
> http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836.../313605063.jpg
>
> http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836.../313604916.jpg
>
> http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836.../313604631.jpg
>

hyundaitech

Okay. The only category in which you've failed is NOx (oxides of
nitrogen). This occurs when combustion chamber temperatures get too high
and the nitrogen in the air begins to react with the oxygen in the air.
So you'll need to check things that would make the combustion chamber
temperature too high.

1. Check the (coolant) thermostat. Make sure it's opening at the correct
temperature. If it opens at too high a temperature, your combustion
chamber temperatures can be excessive.

2. Check the ignition timing. Over-advanced ignition timing can cause
the fuel to burn prematurely and increase combustion chamber
temperatures.

3. Check the function of the entire EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation)
system. The purpose of EGR is to introduce exhaust gases back into the
combustion chamber for the purpose of cooling. If any part of it doesn't
function properly, your combustion chamber temperatures will go up.
You'll need to make sure that the EGR solenoid is working, that the EGR
valve is working, and the EGR passages are clear. You'll also need to
verify that the ECM commands the EGR valve to open at the proper time.

Of course, I don't expect that you'll be able to do any of this yourself.
Any good emissions diagnostic technician should already know what high NOx
readings mean and should know to run the tests I've mentioned above. I
also don't advocate just going out and replacing some of the parts.
There's no guarantee that will fix anything. If you want to take a cheap
shot at passing, try running your tank to empty and refueling with
premium. There's a possibility that'll compensate for over-advanced
ignition timing, but by the same token, resetting the ignition timing is
fairly simple and cheap.

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Vic Hyu Garcia

Pamela G. wrote:
>
> Hyundaitech, I'm in California, and the engine light isn't coming
> on....not yet anyway...Ha!!
>
> I took photos of the numbers. The yellow highlighter marks are from the
> smog tech guy.
>
> http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836.../313605467.jpg
> http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836.../313605234.jpg
>
> http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836.../313605063.jpg
>
> http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836.../313604916.jpg
>
> http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836.../313604631.jpg
>
Did your car PASS the test last year, in CALIFORNIA ????

Your Excel is 17 years old, if it was not designed and maintained for
the CA emission standards .... it will never make it.