Re: Hyundai Admits Major Airbag Problem
 

> • Of the 124 children killed by passenger airbags, 93 are believed to
> have been unrestrained; 26 children were improperly restrained and 5
> were restrained. Twenty of the unrestrained children were seated in
> the lap of a front passenger and 3 were unrestrained and on the lap of
> the driver. Most of these crashes involved pre-impact braking.

so, basically its 5 kids who still died, even with seat belts AND
airbags. and those 5 might have lived if they were in the back seat of
the car.

ive known people that have been in accidents that have deployed the
airbag, and all of them have said that theyd never buy a car that didnt
have one.

Re: Hyundai Admits Major Airbag Problem
 

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, SoCalMike wrote:

> ive known people that have been in accidents that have deployed the
> airbag, and all of them have said that theyd never buy a car that didnt
> have one.

That's nice, but hardly scientific. Such individuals, upon learning one
way or another that the bag deployed, often say "My airbag saved my life!"
without knowing any such thing. Correlation does NOT imply causation, and
it's just as unreasonable to expect Cathy or Cameron Consumer to know
anything about crash science as it is to ascribe any weight to their
uninformed pronouncements of what saved their life.

Science -- that is, unemotional analysis of actual data -- shows us that
in North America, driver and passenger airbags give a statistical 9%
benefit in safety across *ALL* vehicle collisions. The figure is very low
compared to airbag-benefit figures in countries where the bags are truly
designed as _supplemental_ restraints (compared to the North American bags
that are legally required to be large and forceful enough to "save" an
UNbelted 50th-percentile adult male dummy in a 30mph frontal collision).
The North American bag-benefit figure is dragged down by the injuries and
deaths that North American airbags cause to vehicle occupants, even belted
ones, who are smaller and lighter than the 50th-percentile adult male.
These injuries and deaths are virtually unheard of with ADR- or ECE-type
airbags used throughout the rest of the world.

Saving those who are too stupid to protect themselves is incompatible with
maximizing benefit and minimizing risk to those who buckle up, and the
real-world numbers reflect that.

As a final point of interest, the same statistical benefit in a collision
-- 9 percent -- can be had simply by being in a car that weighs 200 pounds
more than baseline. Food for thought.

DS

Re: XG300
 

"BCDC" <bcdc@netidea.com> wrote in message news:<cbfv2l023vh@enews1.newsguy.com>...
> Recently had to take my XG in to get the radio replaced because it kept
> turning itself on. I don't believe I'm the only one that's experienced that
> problem. However, I had to take it in the first time for the dealer to check
> out the circuits to make sure it wasn't just a wiring problem, or so I was
> told. No, it WAS the radio. The dealer ordered one & I went back a couple of
> weeks later to get the 'new' one installed. Dealer looked after me right
> away BUT a 1/2 hour later I realized that the #%%$@*& CD player didn't work...

We had the same problem with our '01 Sonata. Seems Hyundais stereo
have a reputation for malfunctioning. On ours it was the CD portion
of the stereo that would turn on the radio. The stereo will power on
if it senses you inserting a CD when it's turned off. Ours was
intermintently sensing that a CD was being insterted because of a
short or something. It quickly determines "no CD" and the radio would
come on by default.

I don't consider our Sonata to be a high-end car at all. It was good
value as it meets our needs, provides an acceptable level performance,
and isn't ugly. We got car that the size of a Accord for the price of
a Civic.

We will be replacing an 95 Explorer later this year - probably going
to a minivan or light SUV. In a couple of years, when we will likely
want to replace the Sonata, we may look at the "high-end" Hyundai. I
have not driven a 350, but I did get a 300 as rental a couple of years
ago and thought it was a nice car.

Re: Hyundai Admits Major Airbag Problem
 

> That's nice, but hardly scientific. Such individuals, upon learning one
> way or another that the bag deployed, often say "My airbag saved my life!"
> without knowing any such thing. Correlation does NOT imply causation,

but you dont know it *doesnt* either. airbags are not the end all and be
all of automotive safety. but given a choice between a car with nothing,
lap belts only, 3 point harness or 3 point with dual stage airbag, the 3
point with dual stage airbag is going to be safer.

safest of all would be a 5 point racing harness, helmet with HANS,
airbags, and a full enveloping welded steel structural safety cage.

that isnt going to happen.

Re: XG300
 

>
> I don't consider our Sonata to be a high-end car at all. It was good
> value as it meets our needs, provides an acceptable level performance,
> and isn't ugly. We got car that the size of a Accord for the price of
> a Civic.

and now that sonata is worth about half the price of an '01 civic. which
is ok, if youre going to drive it until its junked.

Re: XG300
 

"Curtis CCR" <curtisccr@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> We had the same problem with our '01 Sonata. Seems Hyundais stereo

>
> We will be replacing an 95 Explorer later this year - probably going
> to a minivan or light SUV.

Is it a coincidence or a requirement that mini-van drivers are the worst
drivers ever. They get in the fast lane to go 50mph, put blinkers on but
not off, obscure visibility and are generally an eyesore. I don't even try
to let them in traffic at the off ramps anymore,because it's inevitable
they'll go at least 5 miles below the speed limit. Not to mention all the
extra peripherals (DVD & Games) added to encourage an accident. We saw that
episode of the Simpsons when the Americans put all that junk in the lighter
to stuff their faces in traffic- too funny, but also pathetic.

Unless you have a tribe or other legitimate reason, i.e. business, to buy
one of those things, (and so you can load up at the cheap grocery feed store
is not one those parking lots are full of them-from my observation?), you do
not NEED one. And if you WANT one, well that's a problem all it's own.

Right now the influx of tourists (they come in waves by country) Germans
right now are taking up the whole town with their mini-vans that have become
quite popular over the last few years. They used to only come with the Mini
Winnies which we carped over but now it's worse with the addition of the
mini-van invasion (they take up 2.5 of a regular car, so parking is a PITA
and ferry travel slows considerably). Hate 'em, hate 'em, hate 'em- the
minivans- not the Germans. And they literally block whole streets, made for
Fiat sized cars.

Sorry, just a peeve- this board is my commitment to frugal therapy.

Michelle
Italy

Re: Hyundai Admits Major Airbag Problem
 

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:15:30 GMT, Brian Nystrom
<brian.nystrom@att.net> wrote:

>Ben wrote:

>That's exactly the point, but people still refuse to wear belts, perhaps
>even moreso when they have airbags, despite the warnings that come with
>every car. The stupidity of the American public never ceases to amaze me.

I don't understand why anyone, other than their family, cares if they
are wearing a seatbelt. I think it is stupid to be in a car without a
seatbelt on but it is your body and your life. Why do I get to decide
that you have to wear a seatbelt?

Steve B.

Re: XG300
 

|| Is it a coincidence or a requirement that mini-van drivers are the worst
||drivers ever. They get in the fast lane to go 50mph, put blinkers on but
||not off, obscure visibility and are generally an eyesore. I don't even try
||to let them in traffic at the off ramps anymore,because it's inevitable
||they'll go at least 5 miles below the speed limit. Not to mention all the
||extra peripherals (DVD & Games) added to encourage an accident. We saw that
||episode of the Simpsons when the Americans put all that junk in the lighter
||to stuff their faces in traffic- too funny, but also pathetic.
||
|| Unless you have a tribe or other legitimate reason, i.e. business, to buy
||one of those things, (and so you can load up at the cheap grocery feed store
||is not one those parking lots are full of them-from my observation?), you do
||not NEED one. And if you WANT one, well that's a problem all it's own.
||
|| Right now the influx of tourists (they come in waves by country) Germans
||right now are taking up the whole town with their mini-vans that have become
||quite popular over the last few years. They used to only come with the Mini
||Winnies which we carped over but now it's worse with the addition of the
||mini-van invasion (they take up 2.5 of a regular car, so parking is a PITA
||and ferry travel slows considerably). Hate 'em, hate 'em, hate 'em- the
||minivans- not the Germans. And they literally block whole streets, made for
||Fiat sized cars.
||
|| Sorry, just a peeve- this board is my commitment to frugal therapy.
||
|| Michelle
|| Italy

In the U.S, the environment is a bit different. Parking is not a problem even
for a much larger vehicle, unlike most places I've visited in Europe. People
buy minivans for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is you can transport a
lot of people comfortable across town or across state. I drove a minivan
(Chevrolet Astro) for many years. It was the closest thing I've found yet to a
universal vehicle: Sat 8 comfortably, towed up to 4000 lbs, hauled an enormous
amount of cargo with the seats out, got 20 mpg around town with the A/C on, and
was relatively trouble-free for 250K miles.
Oh, and it never held anybody up in the fast lane. It cruised at 80 easily.
Kept the front tires at -1 deg camber, and the tires wore evenly.
But it wouln't be much fun to drive one in France or Italy. We rented a
Renault Scenic last month in France, and it did well with 4 adults and a boot
full of luggage. 35 mpg diesel, driven briskly.
Texas Parts Guy

Re: Hyundai Admits Major Airbag Problem
 

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, SoCalMike wrote:

> given a choice between a car with nothing, lap belts only, 3 point
> harness or 3 point with dual stage airbag, the 3 point with dual stage
> airbag is going to be safer.

If you're a large, belted man: Yes.
If you're a small, belted woman: No.
If you're somewhere in between and/or unbelted: How lucky do you feel?

You can see all this for yourself in NHTSA's own data, if you'd take a
moment to actually learn something about what you're professing about.
Science trumps your guesses and opinions with one hand tied behind its
back.

DS

Re: Hyundai Admits Major Airbag Problem
 

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, SoCalMike wrote:

> Correlation does NOT imply causation,
>
> but you dont know it *doesnt* either.

Correlation does not imply causation, period. Statistics 101, day one,
first five minutes of class.

DS

Re: Hyundai Admits Major Airbag Problem
 

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:32:53 GMT, Steve B. <this is not my real
address@.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:15:30 GMT, Brian Nystrom
><brian.nystrom@att.net> wrote:
>
>>Ben wrote:
>
>>That's exactly the point, but people still refuse to wear belts, perhaps
>>even moreso when they have airbags, despite the warnings that come with
>>every car. The stupidity of the American public never ceases to amaze me.
>
>I don't understand why anyone, other than their family, cares if they
>are wearing a seatbelt. I think it is stupid to be in a car without a
>seatbelt on but it is your body and your life. Why do I get to decide
>that you have to wear a seatbelt?
because society has to pay for the after effects of non usage of the
seat belt



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because of the current email spam attacks my email account is not included,
reply via the newsgroups or ask for a valid email address.

Re: Hyundai Admits Major Airbag Problem
 

"Steve B." <this is not my real address@.com> wrote in message
news:7c6pd09lnvn201mrclf56fabr643op4ruf@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:15:30 GMT, Brian Nystrom
> <brian.nystrom@att.net> wrote:
>
> >Ben wrote:
>
> >That's exactly the point, but people still refuse to wear belts,
perhaps
> >even moreso when they have airbags, despite the warnings that come
with
> >every car. The stupidity of the American public never ceases to amaze
me.
>
> I don't understand why anyone, other than their family, cares if they
> are wearing a seatbelt. I think it is stupid to be in a car without a
> seatbelt on but it is your body and your life. Why do I get to decide
> that you have to wear a seatbelt?
>
> Steve B.

I do not care if you do not wear a seatbelt in your car because Darwin
will eventually get you.
But in MY car anyone and everyone will wear their seatbelt because the
unrestrained could fly about the car damageing the careful ones.

PS All My cars have had seat bealts since about 1964.
--
John G

Wot's Your Real Problem?

Re: Hyundai Admits Major Airbag Problem
 

"127.0.0.1" <jd@cs.com> wrote in message
news:s88pd05kl8mfaetueei461580bsgcnr8cu@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:32:53 GMT, Steve B. <this is not my real
> address@.com> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:15:30 GMT, Brian Nystrom
> ><brian.nystrom@att.net> wrote:
> >
> >>Ben wrote:
> >
> >>That's exactly the point, but people still refuse to wear belts, perhaps
> >>even moreso when they have airbags, despite the warnings that come with
> >>every car. The stupidity of the American public never ceases to amaze
me.
> >
> >I don't understand why anyone, other than their family, cares if they
> >are wearing a seatbelt. I think it is stupid to be in a car without a
> >seatbelt on but it is your body and your life. Why do I get to decide
> >that you have to wear a seatbelt?
> because society has to pay for the after effects of non usage of the
> seat belt

Society doesn't "have" to pay. Not wearing a seatbelt is an unhealthy
lifestyle; so is over eating. Both are a personal choice. Will obesity be
outlawed?
Pennsylvania just repealed it's motorcycle helmet law but has a seat belt
law-go figure.

Chas Hurst
"I don't need to wear a seatbelt Officer; I smoke too much".

Re: Hyundai Admits Major Airbag Problem
 

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, 127.0.0.1 wrote:

> >I don't understand why anyone, other than their family, cares if they
> >are wearing a seatbelt. I think it is stupid to be in a car without a
> >seatbelt on but it is your body and your life. Why do I get to decide
> >that you have to wear a seatbelt?

> because society has to pay for the after effects of non usage of the
> seat belt

Wrong answer. It doesn't take a very long trip down the road you just
named before we require everyone to be vegetarians, outlaw alcohol and
tobacco, outlaw driving entirely, outlaw bicycling and *certainly* outlaw
motorcycles, etc. Those who do not wish to pay freedom's costs should
choose to live somewhere they're not obligated to do so. China comes to
mind.

Here is the right answer to the question of why your seatbelt non-use is
my business:

A driver who is belted in stays conscious and in the correct position to
remain in control of his vehicle in the event of an emergency. That makes
him much, much less likely to hit another vehicle(s) and/or a
pedestrian(s).

A driver who is *not* belted in, if he is not knocked unconscious, if he
is not knocked clear out of control position, must exert considerable
muscular effort to stay in the driver's seat. As a result, his ability to
remain in control of his car is seriously compromised, making it much,
much more likely that he'll hit another vehicle(s) and/or a pedestrian(s).
Simple physics and physiology, nothing more and nothing less.

It's pathetic that anybody's dumb enough to think mandatory seatbelt use
laws, per se, constitute a bitchable restriction of freedom.

DS

Re: Hyundai Admits Major Airbag Problem
 

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Steve B. wrote:

> I don't understand why anyone, other than their family, cares if they
> are wearing a seatbelt. I think it is stupid to be in a car without a
> seatbelt on but it is your body and your life. Why do I get to decide
> that you have to wear a seatbelt?

The decision doesn't just affect yourself. It affects all the motorists
and pedestrians with whom you share the road and environs. And no, I'm
fixing to make neither the fallacious "insurance" argument nor the
farfetched "fly through the windshield and land on top of me" argument.

A driver who is belted in stays conscious and in the correct position to
remain in control of his vehicle in the event of an emergency. That makes
him much, much less likely to hit another vehicle(s) and/or a
pedestrian(s).

A driver who is *not* belted in, if he is not knocked unconscious, if he
is not knocked clear out of control position, must exert considerable
muscular effort to stay in the driver's seat. As a result, his ability to
remain in control of his car is seriously compromised, making it much,
much more likely that he'll hit another vehicle(s) and/or a pedestrian(s).

It's simple physics and physiology, nothing more and nothing less.

And that's why.

DS