Re: Hyundai car making strange noise
 

On Jul 17, 3:50 am, "Ed Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote:
> "mike3" <mike4...@yahoo.com> wrote in message If I didn't think it viable, I
>
> wouldn't have even bothered to look at
> it. What
> exactly am I supposed to be looking for? I tried wiggling it with my
> hand and I didn't notice anything weird about it. If I didn't think
> the
> suggestion viable, then I wouldn't have done that. If my "test" was
> done
> wrong, then how should I test it right?
>
> ************************************************** *
>
> Take them off and see if you have the noise.

Well yeah, but I thought the first check would be to feel if they're
loose.
If they don't feel loose... But I could still give it a try anyway.

Re: Hyundai car making strange noise
 

Why is this such a problem Mike?

There could be a small rock in one of them too.

Geez

Jim
"mike3" <mike4ty4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:63033c1a-072f-4593-b481-ab384d49bb0c@26g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 17, 3:50 am, "Ed Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote:
> "mike3" <mike4...@yahoo.com> wrote in message If I didn't think it viable,
> I
>
> wouldn't have even bothered to look at
> it. What
> exactly am I supposed to be looking for? I tried wiggling it with my
> hand and I didn't notice anything weird about it. If I didn't think
> the
> suggestion viable, then I wouldn't have done that. If my "test" was
> done
> wrong, then how should I test it right?
>
> ************************************************** *
>
> Take them off and see if you have the noise.

Well yeah, but I thought the first check would be to feel if they're
loose.
If they don't feel loose... But I could still give it a try anyway.

Re: Hyundai car making strange noise
 

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:00:11 -0400, "jim"
<jwhite18816@nospampeoplepc.com> wrote:

>Why is this such a problem Mike?
>
>There could be a small rock in one of them too.
>
A buddy who knew nothing about cars called me one day and asked me
if he could come over to check what he called "a serious problem" with
his car. Think it was a late 70's Cutlass, with a 350. Nice car. He
insisted I take it on a Florida vacation once, and I did.
Said he was "embarrassed" when pulling up to a light and the noise
would make people look at him. Problem was week old.
He comes over and we get in the car. He pulls out and I can clearly
hear clanging in his right front. Has to be in the hubcap.
I tell him to pull over - we only went 10 feet, and popped the hubcap
and a lug nut with broken stud falls out.
Told him to take it to a tire shop and get the stud replaced.
He was glowing with happiness and thought I was a genius.
I didn't hear Mike's sound file, so I can't say.
Won't hurt to look.
But I've heard a million other car noises compared to one time
something was in a hubcap. Have heard noisy hubcaps though.
Usually fancy ones where something gets loose.

--Vic

Re: Hyundai car making strange noise
 

"Vic Smith" <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:uem165h2st38pdic12uq2i6pm4rq8kkjm1@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:00:11 -0400, "jim"
> <jwhite18816@nospampeoplepc.com> wrote:
>
>>Why is this such a problem Mike?
>>
>>There could be a small rock in one of them too.
>>
> A buddy who knew nothing about cars called me one day and asked me
> if he could come over to check what he called "a serious problem" with
> his car. Think it was a late 70's Cutlass, with a 350. Nice car. He
> insisted I take it on a Florida vacation once, and I did.
> Said he was "embarrassed" when pulling up to a light and the noise
> would make people look at him. Problem was week old.
> He comes over and we get in the car. He pulls out and I can clearly
> hear clanging in his right front. Has to be in the hubcap.
> I tell him to pull over - we only went 10 feet, and popped the hubcap
> and a lug nut with broken stud falls out.
> Told him to take it to a tire shop and get the stud replaced.
> He was glowing with happiness and thought I was a genius.
> I didn't hear Mike's sound file, so I can't say.
> Won't hurt to look.
> But I've heard a million other car noises compared to one time
> something was in a hubcap. Have heard noisy hubcaps though.
> Usually fancy ones where something gets loose.
>
> --Vic

I know it might be something else, and probably is, but wouldn't you want to
try the easiest and cheapest fix first?

Re: Hyundai car making strange noise
 

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:24:15 -0400, "jim"
<jwhite18816@nospampeoplepc.com> wrote:

>
>"Vic Smith" <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:uem165h2st38pdic12uq2i6pm4rq8kkjm1@4ax.com.. .
>> On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:00:11 -0400, "jim"
>> <jwhite18816@nospampeoplepc.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Why is this such a problem Mike?
>>>
>>>There could be a small rock in one of them too.
>>>
>> A buddy who knew nothing about cars called me one day and asked me
>> if he could come over to check what he called "a serious problem" with
>> his car. Think it was a late 70's Cutlass, with a 350. Nice car. He
>> insisted I take it on a Florida vacation once, and I did.
>> Said he was "embarrassed" when pulling up to a light and the noise
>> would make people look at him. Problem was week old.
>> He comes over and we get in the car. He pulls out and I can clearly
>> hear clanging in his right front. Has to be in the hubcap.
>> I tell him to pull over - we only went 10 feet, and popped the hubcap
>> and a lug nut with broken stud falls out.
>> Told him to take it to a tire shop and get the stud replaced.
>> He was glowing with happiness and thought I was a genius.
>> I didn't hear Mike's sound file, so I can't say.
>> Won't hurt to look.
>> But I've heard a million other car noises compared to one time
>> something was in a hubcap. Have heard noisy hubcaps though.
>> Usually fancy ones where something gets loose.
>>
>> --Vic
>
>I know it might be something else, and probably is, but wouldn't you want to
>try the easiest and cheapest fix first?
>
I said it wouldn't hurt. I listened to the sound file and didn't hear
anything really. So my advice is to provide a better sound file or
take it somebody who can figure it out.
Never heard a noise that can't be located pretty quickly.
For lower speed stuff running alongside the car can
help pin it down quick.
I like the recorder idea. Might tape it to different parts of the
suspension and the louder it gets the closer you are.
Or a good front end man and a rack might tell the tale real fast.
But I have absolutely no idea what the noise sounds like so I
can't recommend anything beyond what I said.

--Vic

Re: Hyundai car making strange noise
 

On Jul 17, 3:24 pm, "jim" <jwhite18...@nospampeoplepc.com> wrote:
> "Vic Smith" <thismailautodele...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:uem165h2st38pdic12uq2i6pm4rq8kkjm1@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:00:11 -0400, "jim"
> > <jwhite18...@nospampeoplepc.com> wrote:
>
> >>Why is this such a problem Mike?
>
> >>There could be a small rock in one of them too.
>
> > A buddy who knew nothing about cars called me one day and asked me
> > if he could come over to check what he called "a serious problem" with
> > his car. Think it was a late 70's Cutlass, with a 350. Nice car. He
> > insisted I take it on a Florida vacation once, and I did.
> > Said he was "embarrassed" when pulling up to a light and the noise
> > would make people look at him. Problem was week old.
> > He comes over and we get in the car. He pulls out and I can clearly
> > hear clanging in his right front. Has to be in the hubcap.
> > I tell him to pull over - we only went 10 feet, and popped the hubcap
> > and a lug nut with broken stud falls out.
> > Told him to take it to a tire shop and get the stud replaced.
> > He was glowing with happiness and thought I was a genius.
> > I didn't hear Mike's sound file, so I can't say.
> > Won't hurt to look.
> > But I've heard a million other car noises compared to one time
> > something was in a hubcap. Have heard noisy hubcaps though.
> > Usually fancy ones where something gets loose.
>
> > --Vic
>
> I know it might be something else, and probably is, but wouldn't you wantto
> try the easiest and cheapest fix first?

I suppose, but these hubcaps have big holes in them, so I'm not sure
how something
could get caught in there, move around a lot, and not come out.
Furthermore, there is
more reason to believe this is not a hubcap problem (and so this test
would just be a
waste): sometimes I've heard the sound when the car is not moving, but
idling. When
it happens while idling, there may be, though I'm not sure, a
correlation with putting it
into/out of gear, for example shifting to/from park. And it doesn't
happen constantly
when it's moving either, just episodically. When it occurs with the
shifting it's only like
I think 1, 2, maybe 3 clicks (but they sound just the same and have
the same
frequency.).

Re: Hyundai car making strange noise
 

On Jul 17, 3:54 pm, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:24:15 -0400, "jim"
>
>
>
> <jwhite18...@nospampeoplepc.com> wrote:
>
> >"Vic Smith" <thismailautodele...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:uem165h2st38pdic12uq2i6pm4rq8kkjm1@4ax.com.. .
> >> On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:00:11 -0400, "jim"
> >> <jwhite18...@nospampeoplepc.com> wrote:
>
> >>>Why is this such a problem Mike?
>
> >>>There could be a small rock in one of them too.
>
> >> A buddy who knew nothing about cars called me one day and asked me
> >> if he could come over to check what he called "a serious problem" with
> >> his car. Think it was a late 70's Cutlass, with a 350. Nice car. He
> >> insisted I take it on a Florida vacation once, and I did.
> >> Said he was "embarrassed" when pulling up to a light and the noise
> >> would make people look at him. Problem was week old.
> >> He comes over and we get in the car. He pulls out and I can clearly
> >> hear clanging in his right front. Has to be in the hubcap.
> >> I tell him to pull over - we only went 10 feet, and popped the hubcap
> >> and a lug nut with broken stud falls out.
> >> Told him to take it to a tire shop and get the stud replaced.
> >> He was glowing with happiness and thought I was a genius.
> >> I didn't hear Mike's sound file, so I can't say.
> >> Won't hurt to look.
> >> But I've heard a million other car noises compared to one time
> >> something was in a hubcap. Have heard noisy hubcaps though.
> >> Usually fancy ones where something gets loose.
>
> >> --Vic
>
> >I know it might be something else, and probably is, but wouldn't you want to
> >try the easiest and cheapest fix first?
>
> I said it wouldn't hurt. I listened to the sound file and didn't hear
> anything really.

You need to turn it up and listen close at the times I mentioned. It's
a
fast clicking noise. I know, there's a lot of normal noise (engine
running,
road sound, etc.) in front of it. It's easier to hear when you're
really in the
car than in the recording.

> So my advice is to provide a better sound file or
> take it somebody who can figure it out.
> Never heard a noise that can't be located pretty quickly.
> For lower speed stuff running alongside the car can
> help pin it down quick.
> I like the recorder idea. Might tape it to different parts of the
> suspension and the louder it gets the closer you are.
> Or a good front end man and a rack might tell the tale real fast.
> But I have absolutely no idea what the noise sounds like so I
> can't recommend anything beyond what I said.
>
> --Vic

Re: Hyundai car making strange noise
 

On Jul 18, 12:25 pm, mike3 <mike4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 17, 3:24 pm, "jim" <jwhite18...@nospampeoplepc.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Vic Smith" <thismailautodele...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:uem165h2st38pdic12uq2i6pm4rq8kkjm1@4ax.com.. .
>
> > > On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:00:11 -0400, "jim"
> > > <jwhite18...@nospampeoplepc.com> wrote:
>
> > >>Why is this such a problem Mike?
>
> > >>There could be a small rock in one of them too.
>
> > > A buddy who knew nothing about cars called me one day and asked me
> > > if he could come over to check what he called "a serious problem" with
> > > his car. Think it was a late 70's Cutlass, with a 350. Nice car.. He
> > > insisted I take it on a Florida vacation once, and I did.
> > > Said he was "embarrassed" when pulling up to a light and the noise
> > > would make people look at him. Problem was week old.
> > > He comes over and we get in the car. He pulls out and I can clearly
> > > hear clanging in his right front. Has to be in the hubcap.
> > > I tell him to pull over - we only went 10 feet, and popped the hubcap
> > > and a lug nut with broken stud falls out.
> > > Told him to take it to a tire shop and get the stud replaced.
> > > He was glowing with happiness and thought I was a genius.
> > > I didn't hear Mike's sound file, so I can't say.
> > > Won't hurt to look.
> > > But I've heard a million other car noises compared to one time
> > > something was in a hubcap. Have heard noisy hubcaps though.
> > > Usually fancy ones where something gets loose.
>
> > > --Vic
>
> > I know it might be something else, and probably is, but wouldn't you want to
> > try the easiest and cheapest fix first?
>
> I suppose, but these hubcaps have big holes in them, so I'm not sure
> how something
> could get caught in there, move around a lot, and not come out.
> Furthermore, there is
> more reason to believe this is not a hubcap problem (and so this test
> would just be a
> waste): sometimes I've heard the sound when the car is not moving, but
> idling. When
> it happens while idling, there may be, though I'm not sure, a
> correlation with putting it
> into/out of gear, for example shifting to/from park. And it doesn't
> happen constantly
> when it's moving either, just episodically. When it occurs with the
> shifting it's only like
> I think 1, 2, maybe 3 clicks (but they sound just the same and have
> the same
> frequency.).

And it also doesn't always happen when changing gears, either. But
sometimes
it's been heard it at those times.

Re: Hyundai car making strange noise
 

On Jul 18, 1:28 pm, mike3 <mike4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 18, 12:25 pm, mike3 <mike4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 17, 3:24 pm, "jim" <jwhite18...@nospampeoplepc.com> wrote:
>
> > > "Vic Smith" <thismailautodele...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:uem165h2st38pdic12uq2i6pm4rq8kkjm1@4ax.com.. .
>
> > > > On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:00:11 -0400, "jim"
> > > > <jwhite18...@nospampeoplepc.com> wrote:
>
> > > >>Why is this such a problem Mike?
>
> > > >>There could be a small rock in one of them too.
>
> > > > A buddy who knew nothing about cars called me one day and asked me
> > > > if he could come over to check what he called "a serious problem" with
> > > > his car. Think it was a late 70's Cutlass, with a 350. Nice car. He
> > > > insisted I take it on a Florida vacation once, and I did.
> > > > Said he was "embarrassed" when pulling up to a light and the noise
> > > > would make people look at him. Problem was week old.
> > > > He comes over and we get in the car. He pulls out and I can clearly
> > > > hear clanging in his right front. Has to be in the hubcap.
> > > > I tell him to pull over - we only went 10 feet, and popped the hubcap
> > > > and a lug nut with broken stud falls out.
> > > > Told him to take it to a tire shop and get the stud replaced.
> > > > He was glowing with happiness and thought I was a genius.
> > > > I didn't hear Mike's sound file, so I can't say.
> > > > Won't hurt to look.
> > > > But I've heard a million other car noises compared to one time
> > > > something was in a hubcap. Have heard noisy hubcaps though.
> > > > Usually fancy ones where something gets loose.
>
> > > > --Vic
>
> > > I know it might be something else, and probably is, but wouldn't you want to
> > > try the easiest and cheapest fix first?
>
> > I suppose, but these hubcaps have big holes in them, so I'm not sure
> > how something
> > could get caught in there, move around a lot, and not come out.
> > Furthermore, there is
> > more reason to believe this is not a hubcap problem (and so this test
> > would just be a
> > waste): sometimes I've heard the sound when the car is not moving, but
> > idling. When
> > it happens while idling, there may be, though I'm not sure, a
> > correlation with putting it
> > into/out of gear, for example shifting to/from park. And it doesn't
> > happen constantly
> > when it's moving either, just episodically. When it occurs with the
> > shifting it's only like
> > I think 1, 2, maybe 3 clicks (but they sound just the same and have
> > the same
> > frequency.).
>
> And it also doesn't always happen when changing gears, either. But
> sometimes
> it's been heard it at those times.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Could you be a dear and leave usenet for those who don't slap
respondants' suggestions back in their faces? I can't tell you how
much I hope the noise is hubcap creep.

Toyota MDT in MO

Re: Hyundai car making strange noise
 

Toyota MDT in MO wrote:

> Could you be a dear and leave usenet for those who don't slap
> respondants' suggestions back in their faces? I can't tell you how
> much I hope the noise is hubcap creep.
>
> Toyota MDT in MO

I'm thinking it's a sticky caliper. Just did another set of rear discs
on a GM with STUCK glides.

Anyone have a better lube for them? The stuff I'm using now is a
silicone based grease made for the pins but it still doesn't last that long.
The current method is to clean (or replace them if pitted) the pins. use
a dowel to clean out the bores (a .30 caliber gun brush works REAL well)
then solvent flush and air dry. Then a generous helping of lube and
install the pins. Then a light coat of sealer inside the boot to lock it
to the caliper mount and to the pin. I would think that water/air
wouldn't be getting in there but I still get a couple that stick.

--
Steve W.

Re: Hyundai car making strange noise
 

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 18:46:26 -0400, "Steve W." <csr684@NOTyahoo.com>
wrote:

>Toyota MDT in MO wrote:
>
>> Could you be a dear and leave usenet for those who don't slap
>> respondants' suggestions back in their faces? I can't tell you how
>> much I hope the noise is hubcap creep.
>>
>> Toyota MDT in MO
>
>I'm thinking it's a sticky caliper. Just did another set of rear discs
>on a GM with STUCK glides.
>
>Anyone have a better lube for them?

I got some black stuff in little clear plastic tubes; can't remember
name...too lazy to dig through my *kit* but for giggles, couldn't you
just squeeze some silver-colored anti-seize into the pin guides? The
same stuff we use on spark plugs. Takes the heat, just can't say how
long it would stay where it should. Then in 30 days or so, see if you
still have play in the calipers...maybe use a screwdriver to test, but
remember the pads need to be compressed first. So have to remove
wheel and tire to do that. Just an idea if you've got the time.

Nick


> The stuff I'm using now is a
>silicone based grease made for the pins but it still doesn't last that long.
>The current method is to clean (or replace them if pitted) the pins. use
>a dowel to clean out the bores (a .30 caliber gun brush works REAL well)
>then solvent flush and air dry. Then a generous helping of lube and
>install the pins. Then a light coat of sealer inside the boot to lock it
>to the caliper mount and to the pin. I would think that water/air
>wouldn't be getting in there but I still get a couple that stick.

Re: Hyundai car making strange noise
 

"mike3" <mike4ty4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Furthermore, there is
more reason to believe this is not a hubcap problem (and so this test
would just be a
waste): sometimes I've heard the sound when the car is not moving, but
idling. When
it happens while idling, there may be, though I'm not sure, a
correlation with putting it
into/out of gear, for example shifting to/from park. And it doesn't
happen constantly
when it's moving either, just episodically. When it occurs with the
shifting it's only like
I think 1, 2, maybe 3 clicks (but they sound just the same and have
the same
frequency.).

************************************************** **********************

That is important information you left out the first time. Doing
diagnostics you follow certain paths of common problems. Noises when moving
versus noises when standing are usually very different sources.

Given your mechanical abilities and aptitude, there is a fairly simple
solution to the problem. Take the car to the dealer Monday morning. Trade
it in on a new one.

Re: Hyundai car making strange noise
 

LMAO111

Steve in AZ

"MasterBlaster" <Nobody's.Home@My.Place> wrote in message
news:mny7m.36596$PH1.23187@edtnps82...
>
> "mike3" wrote:
>
>> We have a Hyundai Accent GS car (2001) that's been making this bizarre
>> "clicking" or "creaking" noise while driving it. I recorded a sample
>> here:
>>
>> http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?2md3oydznvm
>
> It's from the enginetrannysuspensionbodyhoodaxlebrakestrutdoohic key.
> Don't worry, all Hyundais do that.
>
> Actually, it's almost impossible to tell what the noise is just from a
> recording.
> I'd have to actually drive the car at different speeds, over different
> terrain
> (smooth, bumpy, rough, etc), speeding up, slowing down, turning left,
> right,
> braking and so on.... to try and narrow it down to the most likely causes.
> Then it's back to the shop, up on the hoist, and start prying and twisting
> parts
> to pinpoint the noise.
>
>

Re: Hyundai car making strange noise
 

On Jul 18, 1:55 pm, Toyota MDT in MO <toyotamdti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 18, 1:28 pm, mike3 <mike4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 18, 12:25 pm, mike3 <mike4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 17, 3:24 pm, "jim" <jwhite18...@nospampeoplepc.com> wrote:
>
> > > > "Vic Smith" <thismailautodele...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:uem165h2st38pdic12uq2i6pm4rq8kkjm1@4ax.com.. .
>
> > > > > On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:00:11 -0400, "jim"
> > > > > <jwhite18...@nospampeoplepc.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >>Why is this such a problem Mike?
>
> > > > >>There could be a small rock in one of them too.
>
> > > > > A buddy who knew nothing about cars called me one day and asked me
> > > > > if he could come over to check what he called "a serious problem"with
> > > > > his car. Think it was a late 70's Cutlass, with a 350. Nicecar. He
> > > > > insisted I take it on a Florida vacation once, and I did.
> > > > > Said he was "embarrassed" when pulling up to a light and the noise
> > > > > would make people look at him. Problem was week old.
> > > > > He comes over and we get in the car. He pulls out and I can clearly
> > > > > hear clanging in his right front. Has to be in the hubcap.
> > > > > I tell him to pull over - we only went 10 feet, and popped the hubcap
> > > > > and a lug nut with broken stud falls out.
> > > > > Told him to take it to a tire shop and get the stud replaced.
> > > > > He was glowing with happiness and thought I was a genius.
> > > > > I didn't hear Mike's sound file, so I can't say.
> > > > > Won't hurt to look.
> > > > > But I've heard a million other car noises compared to one time
> > > > > something was in a hubcap. Have heard noisy hubcaps though.
> > > > > Usually fancy ones where something gets loose.
>
> > > > > --Vic
>
> > > > I know it might be something else, and probably is, but wouldn't you want to
> > > > try the easiest and cheapest fix first?
>
> > > I suppose, but these hubcaps have big holes in them, so I'm not sure
> > > how something
> > > could get caught in there, move around a lot, and not come out.
> > > Furthermore, there is
> > > more reason to believe this is not a hubcap problem (and so this test
> > > would just be a
> > > waste): sometimes I've heard the sound when the car is not moving, but
> > > idling. When
> > > it happens while idling, there may be, though I'm not sure, a
> > > correlation with putting it
> > > into/out of gear, for example shifting to/from park. And it doesn't
> > > happen constantly
> > > when it's moving either, just episodically. When it occurs with the
> > > shifting it's only like
> > > I think 1, 2, maybe 3 clicks (but they sound just the same and have
> > > the same
> > > frequency.).
>
> > And it also doesn't always happen when changing gears, either. But
> > sometimes
> > it's been heard it at those times.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Could you be a dear and leave usenet for those who don't slap
> respondants' suggestions back in their faces? I can't tell you how
> much I hope the noise is hubcap creep.
>

Why do you think I'm just dismissing it? Rather I thought about it,
and
I weighed it in light of available evidence.

Re: Hyundai car making strange noise
 

On Jul 18, 8:15 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote:
> "mike3" <mike4...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> Furthermore, there is
> more reason to believe this is not a hubcap problem (and so this test
> would just be a
> waste): sometimes I've heard the sound when the car is not moving, but
> idling. When
> it happens while idling, there may be, though I'm not sure, a
> correlation with putting it
> into/out of gear, for example shifting to/from park. And it doesn't
> happen constantly
> when it's moving either, just episodically. When it occurs with the
> shifting it's only like
> I think 1, 2, maybe 3 clicks (but they sound just the same and have
> the same
> frequency.).
>
> ************************************************** **********************
>
> That is important information you left out the first time. Doing
> diagnostics you follow certain paths of common problems. Noises when moving
> versus noises when standing are usually very different sources.
>

And what about ones that occur during both?

But now that I *have* given the information, what would you suspect
now?