No, Matt, my brains are still in place. )

We had two cars for quite some time and both my wife and I worked so, we
alternated. We traded cars after they were four years old and we spaced
them so it was every two years. Four years and 50,000 miles was at the end
of warrantees and, since they were American cars, they were worn out by
then. Sad, but true. Someday our auto industry will wake up and make cars
that aren't ugly as crap and built the same way with Union labor that
doesn't give a damn about anything except their paycheck and benefits.


"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
news:cuzWg.1808$Db4.255536@news1.epix.net...
> Tom wrote:
>
>> I also like my 06 Sonota very much. I tried buying a Toyota but the two
>> dealerships I visited were so nasty and arrogant that I would never
>> consider them again. You can't even get to the cars without going
>> through the showroom and being assigned a salesperson. They have it
>> fenced off to funnel customers into the showroom. I had to show my
>> salesman how to open the hood!!! The sales manager called me 'cheap'
>> because I didn't want to pay the extra $500 that just showed up on the
>> paperwork. Not even the friggin dealer documentation fee, which was
>> $700!!!!! Never will I set foot in Togoa land again.......
>> In contrast, I was in and made a deal with Hyundai in 5 minutes. Took
>> the moon roof cost off without me even saying a word, gave me $1500 more
>> off, got the rebate, and I had so little to pay between the new car and
>> the old one that I couldn't make the $10,000 limit to get another $1000
>> rebate from Hyundai Finance that they wrote ME a check for $6000!!!!! to
>> make the difference. Then I paid it off in 3 months with no penalty.
>> Now THAT'S what I like. I've been buying new cars every 2 years for the
>> last 40 years and never had that experience.
>
> I had a pretty positive sales experience as well. Unfortunately, I got a
> card in the mail that my salesman has since left the dealership and
> somebody else took his place. Haven't been back so no idea how the new
> guy will be.
>
> A new car every two years! Either you are a traveling salesman or you
> have more money than brains! :-)
>
>
> Matt

 

Tom wrote:
> No, Matt, my brains are still in place. )

:-)


> We had two cars for quite some time and both my wife and I worked so, we
> alternated. We traded cars after they were four years old and we spaced
> them so it was every two years. Four years and 50,000 miles was at the end
> of warrantees and, since they were American cars, they were worn out by
> then. Sad, but true. Someday our auto industry will wake up and make cars
> that aren't ugly as crap and built the same way with Union labor that
> doesn't give a damn about anything except their paycheck and benefits.

I've had the opposite experience. My American cars (mostly Chryslers -
Acclaim, and two minivans) and trucks (Jeep Comanche and now Chevy
K1500) have been much more durable than my foreign cars (VW Beetles and
Honda Accord). All have went well over 100,000 miles (well, my Chevy
truck is just shy of 100,000), with the Acclaim going to 143,000 before
being totaled by a deer and my 96 minivan had 178,000 when totaled by a
drunk driver.

My Accord suffered catastrophic engine failure at 72,000 miles when the
cam and rocker arms self-destructed. The two Beetles went over 100K,
but needed valve work, oil leaks addressed, etc.

The Accord had fewer teething pains when new than many of the American
cars (except the Acclaim which was nearly flawless from the start), but
began to systematically self-destruct at 60,000 miles. It needed
struts, new rotors, new drums, new exhaust system, etc., all at 5 years
and 60,000. My Acclaim had the original exhaust when it was totaled
ager 9 years and 143K. I'd just replaced the exhaust on my minivan at
10 years and 178,000 right before it was totaled.

I'm hoping the Sonata holds up more like the Acclaim than the Accord!


Matt

 

<Old_Timer> wrote in message
news:r5sii2158ubobih7r4r0o56takqvlvm0g7@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 21:50:15 -0400, "taters2" <carl.n@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Paid close to $18000 in 5 years value down to about 1/3.
>
> It can be worse than Hyundai
> See table
>
> http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story....ice&aff=boston
>
> Old_Timer

Interesting list, both the worst and the best. I did not expect to see Chevy
and Ford trucks on the worst, I would have though Lexus would have made the
top 1- best list.

 

"Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:1OCWg.57219$vX5.16418@bignews8.bellsouth.net. ..
> No, Matt, my brains are still in place. )
>
> We had two cars for quite some time and both my wife and I worked so, we
> alternated. We traded cars after they were four years old and we spaced
> them so it was every two years. Four years and 50,000 miles was at the
end
> of warrantees and, since they were American cars, they were worn out by
> then. Sad, but true. Someday our auto industry will wake up and make
cars
> that aren't ugly as crap and built the same way with Union labor that
> doesn't give a damn about anything except their paycheck and benefits.
>

I understand the alternating car purchase thing - we do the same, but
getting 4 years and/or 50,000 miles out of a car is crazy. I've driven GM
products for over 30 years and have consistently gotten 200,000 out of them
with no real problems. If you're only getting 50K out of a car, you're
either buying some real low end junk, or you're way too hard on a car.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

 

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 22:56:28 -0400, "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net>
wrote:

>
>"Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>news:1OCWg.57219$vX5.16418@bignews8.bellsouth.net ...
>> No, Matt, my brains are still in place. )
>>
>> We had two cars for quite some time and both my wife and I worked so, we
>> alternated. We traded cars after they were four years old and we spaced
>> them so it was every two years. Four years and 50,000 miles was at the
>end
>> of warrantees and, since they were American cars, they were worn out by
>> then. Sad, but true. Someday our auto industry will wake up and make
>cars
>> that aren't ugly as crap and built the same way with Union labor that
>> doesn't give a damn about anything except their paycheck and benefits.
>>
>
>I understand the alternating car purchase thing - we do the same, but
>getting 4 years and/or 50,000 miles out of a car is crazy. I've driven GM
>products for over 30 years and have consistently gotten 200,000 out of them
>with no real problems. If you're only getting 50K out of a car, you're
>either buying some real low end junk, or you're way too hard on a car.

Not necessarily true.
A car dealer's lot is filled with low mileage, good condition, late
model used cars that were traded in by the previous owners simply
because they were afflicted with "New Car Fever"

Old_Timer

 

<Old_Timer> wrote in message
news:e76mi25dn7rosfm248up0smos10qb9m274@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 22:56:28 -0400, "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >news:1OCWg.57219$vX5.16418@bignews8.bellsouth.net ...
> >> No, Matt, my brains are still in place. )
> >>
> >> We had two cars for quite some time and both my wife and I worked so,
we
> >> alternated. We traded cars after they were four years old and we
spaced
> >> them so it was every two years. Four years and 50,000 miles was at the
> >end
> >> of warrantees and, since they were American cars, they were worn out by
> >> then. Sad, but true. Someday our auto industry will wake up and make
> >cars
> >> that aren't ugly as crap and built the same way with Union labor that
> >> doesn't give a damn about anything except their paycheck and benefits.
> >>
> >
> >I understand the alternating car purchase thing - we do the same, but
> >getting 4 years and/or 50,000 miles out of a car is crazy. I've driven
GM
> >products for over 30 years and have consistently gotten 200,000 out of
them
> >with no real problems. If you're only getting 50K out of a car, you're
> >either buying some real low end junk, or you're way too hard on a car.
>
> Not necessarily true.
> A car dealer's lot is filled with low mileage, good condition, late
> model used cars that were traded in by the previous owners simply
> because they were afflicted with "New Car Fever"
>

True, but not relevant to my point. I was responding to your comment that
your American cars were worn out by 50,000 miles. That's just no consistent
with reality.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

 

OH, I'm not saying they were worn out at 50,000 miles!!! I'm just saying
that we wanted to avoid any more reduction in resale value and the
inevitable things that go wrong after the warrantee period expires. (Murphy
lives with us) In all the cars I've had (Knock on wood), I've never had a
lemon. When I traded them in, there were no major problems with any of
them. It's just a habit we had gotten into of trading. Now, with a Kia and
a Hyundai, our perspective has changed. Also, with me retiring the miles
don't accumulate as fast and we have broken that visous tradein cycle.

Matt, sounds like you better hang deer sirens all over that Sonota!!! I
also have a 2002 Honda Civic, that I use occasionally. I was saving it as a
trade in for a car for my son when he wears out his Jetta (145,000 miles).
At least the Honda retains its value quite well.

Tom
"Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:c7638$452b0bf2$471fbb6d$15203@ALLTEL.NET...
>
> "Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:1OCWg.57219$vX5.16418@bignews8.bellsouth.net. ..
>> No, Matt, my brains are still in place. )
>>
>> We had two cars for quite some time and both my wife and I worked so, we
>> alternated. We traded cars after they were four years old and we spaced
>> them so it was every two years. Four years and 50,000 miles was at the
> end
>> of warrantees and, since they were American cars, they were worn out by
>> then. Sad, but true. Someday our auto industry will wake up and make
> cars
>> that aren't ugly as crap and built the same way with Union labor that
>> doesn't give a damn about anything except their paycheck and benefits.
>>
>
> I understand the alternating car purchase thing - we do the same, but
> getting 4 years and/or 50,000 miles out of a car is crazy. I've driven GM
> products for over 30 years and have consistently gotten 200,000 out of
> them
> with no real problems. If you're only getting 50K out of a car, you're
> either buying some real low end junk, or you're way too hard on a car.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
>
>

 

I was too hasty in saying they were worn out. I guess I was caught up in
the 'moment'. Senioritis syndrome....... I just seemed that, at 50,000
miles, you started hearing all kinds of expensive sounds that talked you
into trading before the perceived sounds became a reality. Now, some of the
older 1960's and 1970's cars WERE worn out by then! Reference any early
model Chrysler product pre-Ioccoa.

Tom


"Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:1OCWg.57219$vX5.16418@bignews8.bellsouth.net. ..
> No, Matt, my brains are still in place. )
>
> We had two cars for quite some time and both my wife and I worked so, we
> alternated. We traded cars after they were four years old and we spaced
> them so it was every two years. Four years and 50,000 miles was at the
> end of warrantees and, since they were American cars, they were worn out
> by then. Sad, but true. Someday our auto industry will wake up and make
> cars that aren't ugly as crap and built the same way with Union labor that
> doesn't give a damn about anything except their paycheck and benefits.
>
>
> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
> news:cuzWg.1808$Db4.255536@news1.epix.net...
>> Tom wrote:
>>
>>> I also like my 06 Sonota very much. I tried buying a Toyota but the two
>>> dealerships I visited were so nasty and arrogant that I would never
>>> consider them again. You can't even get to the cars without going
>>> through the showroom and being assigned a salesperson. They have it
>>> fenced off to funnel customers into the showroom. I had to show my
>>> salesman how to open the hood!!! The sales manager called me 'cheap'
>>> because I didn't want to pay the extra $500 that just showed up on the
>>> paperwork. Not even the friggin dealer documentation fee, which was
>>> $700!!!!! Never will I set foot in Togoa land again.......
>>> In contrast, I was in and made a deal with Hyundai in 5 minutes. Took
>>> the moon roof cost off without me even saying a word, gave me $1500
>>> more off, got the rebate, and I had so little to pay between the new car
>>> and the old one that I couldn't make the $10,000 limit to get another
>>> $1000 rebate from Hyundai Finance that they wrote ME a check for
>>> $6000!!!!! to make the difference. Then I paid it off in 3 months with
>>> no penalty. Now THAT'S what I like. I've been buying new cars every 2
>>> years for the last 40 years and never had that experience.
>>
>> I had a pretty positive sales experience as well. Unfortunately, I got a
>> card in the mail that my salesman has since left the dealership and
>> somebody else took his place. Haven't been back so no idea how the new
>> guy will be.
>>
>> A new car every two years! Either you are a traveling salesman or you
>> have more money than brains! :-)
>>
>>
>> Matt
>
>

 

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 07:10:28 -0400, "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net>
wrote:

>
><Old_Timer> wrote in message
>news:e76mi25dn7rosfm248up0smos10qb9m274@4ax.com.. .
>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 22:56:28 -0400, "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> >news:1OCWg.57219$vX5.16418@bignews8.bellsouth.net ...
>> >> No, Matt, my brains are still in place. )
>> >>
>> >> We had two cars for quite some time and both my wife and I worked so,
>we
>> >> alternated. We traded cars after they were four years old and we
>spaced
>> >> them so it was every two years. Four years and 50,000 miles was at the
>> >end
>> >> of warrantees and, since they were American cars, they were worn out by
>> >> then. Sad, but true. Someday our auto industry will wake up and make
>> >cars
>> >> that aren't ugly as crap and built the same way with Union labor that
>> >> doesn't give a damn about anything except their paycheck and benefits.
>> >>
>> >
>> >I understand the alternating car purchase thing - we do the same, but
>> >getting 4 years and/or 50,000 miles out of a car is crazy. I've driven
>GM
>> >products for over 30 years and have consistently gotten 200,000 out of
>them
>> >with no real problems. If you're only getting 50K out of a car, you're
>> >either buying some real low end junk, or you're way too hard on a car.
>>
>> Not necessarily true.
>> A car dealer's lot is filled with low mileage, good condition, late
>> model used cars that were traded in by the previous owners simply
>> because they were afflicted with "New Car Fever"
>>
>
>True, but not relevant to my point. I was responding to your comment that
>your American cars were worn out by 50,000 miles. That's just no consistent
>with reality.

I have made no such comment. In fact, I will say my 1996 Dodge
Dakota has over 100,000 miles and is still in "cherry" condition.

Old_Timer

 

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:32:46 -0400, "Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>I was too hasty in saying they were worn out. I guess I was caught up in
>the 'moment'. Senioritis syndrome....... I just seemed that, at 50,000
>miles, you started hearing all kinds of expensive sounds that talked you
>into trading before the perceived sounds became a reality. Now, some of the
>older 1960's and 1970's cars WERE worn out by then! Reference any early
>model Chrysler product pre-Ioccoa.
>
>Tom

If you really want to a "look back" I am old enough to recall when
cars of the 1930's era frequently required ring and valve jobs at
35,000 miles. This was especially true for the early Ford V8's.
Also the rear differentials were howling on many cars with 50000
miles. As for the bodies, it was not unusual for the fenders to be
"flapping" when the car was 8-10 years old. There were no rust
preventatives built into the cars of that era.

The durability of the engines on all cars, domestic and imported,
have seen substantial improvement over the years.

Old_Timer



>"Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>news:1OCWg.57219$vX5.16418@bignews8.bellsouth.net ...
>> No, Matt, my brains are still in place. )
>>
>> We had two cars for quite some time and both my wife and I worked so, we
>> alternated. We traded cars after they were four years old and we spaced
>> them so it was every two years. Four years and 50,000 miles was at the
>> end of warrantees and, since they were American cars, they were worn out
>> by then. Sad, but true. Someday our auto industry will wake up and make
>> cars that aren't ugly as crap and built the same way with Union labor that
>> doesn't give a damn about anything except their paycheck and benefits.
>>
>>
>> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
>> news:cuzWg.1808$Db4.255536@news1.epix.net...
>>> Tom wrote:
>>>
>>>> I also like my 06 Sonota very much. I tried buying a Toyota but the two
>>>> dealerships I visited were so nasty and arrogant that I would never
>>>> consider them again. You can't even get to the cars without going
>>>> through the showroom and being assigned a salesperson. They have it
>>>> fenced off to funnel customers into the showroom. I had to show my
>>>> salesman how to open the hood!!! The sales manager called me 'cheap'
>>>> because I didn't want to pay the extra $500 that just showed up on the
>>>> paperwork. Not even the friggin dealer documentation fee, which was
>>>> $700!!!!! Never will I set foot in Togoa land again.......
>>>> In contrast, I was in and made a deal with Hyundai in 5 minutes. Took
>>>> the moon roof cost off without me even saying a word, gave me $1500
>>>> more off, got the rebate, and I had so little to pay between the new car
>>>> and the old one that I couldn't make the $10,000 limit to get another
>>>> $1000 rebate from Hyundai Finance that they wrote ME a check for
>>>> $6000!!!!! to make the difference. Then I paid it off in 3 months with
>>>> no penalty. Now THAT'S what I like. I've been buying new cars every 2
>>>> years for the last 40 years and never had that experience.
>>>
>>> I had a pretty positive sales experience as well. Unfortunately, I got a
>>> card in the mail that my salesman has since left the dealership and
>>> somebody else took his place. Haven't been back so no idea how the new
>>> guy will be.
>>>
>>> A new car every two years! Either you are a traveling salesman or you
>>> have more money than brains! :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> Matt
>>
>>
>

 

Amen, Old Timer!!
I think a lot of these young 'whipper snappers' have no idea what 50,000
miles on a 1950's era car really meant. Hell, even the tires were good for
only 10,000 miles or so. I had to have my 54 chevy rebuilt after 40,000
miles when I bought it for $395. Had to finance it for a year. )


<Old_Timer> wrote in message
news:67fni2tkm94b67b6udfrisidqq784bmj5o@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:32:46 -0400, "Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
>>I was too hasty in saying they were worn out. I guess I was caught up in
>>the 'moment'. Senioritis syndrome....... I just seemed that, at 50,000
>>miles, you started hearing all kinds of expensive sounds that talked you
>>into trading before the perceived sounds became a reality. Now, some of
>>the
>>older 1960's and 1970's cars WERE worn out by then! Reference any early
>>model Chrysler product pre-Ioccoa.
>>
>>Tom
>
> If you really want to a "look back" I am old enough to recall when
> cars of the 1930's era frequently required ring and valve jobs at
> 35,000 miles. This was especially true for the early Ford V8's.
> Also the rear differentials were howling on many cars with 50000
> miles. As for the bodies, it was not unusual for the fenders to be
> "flapping" when the car was 8-10 years old. There were no rust
> preventatives built into the cars of that era.
>
> The durability of the engines on all cars, domestic and imported,
> have seen substantial improvement over the years.
>
> Old_Timer
>
>
>
>>"Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>news:1OCWg.57219$vX5.16418@bignews8.bellsouth.ne t...
>>> No, Matt, my brains are still in place. )
>>>
>>> We had two cars for quite some time and both my wife and I worked so, we
>>> alternated. We traded cars after they were four years old and we spaced
>>> them so it was every two years. Four years and 50,000 miles was at the
>>> end of warrantees and, since they were American cars, they were worn out
>>> by then. Sad, but true. Someday our auto industry will wake up and
>>> make
>>> cars that aren't ugly as crap and built the same way with Union labor
>>> that
>>> doesn't give a damn about anything except their paycheck and benefits.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
>>> news:cuzWg.1808$Db4.255536@news1.epix.net...
>>>> Tom wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I also like my 06 Sonota very much. I tried buying a Toyota but the
>>>>> two
>>>>> dealerships I visited were so nasty and arrogant that I would never
>>>>> consider them again. You can't even get to the cars without going
>>>>> through the showroom and being assigned a salesperson. They have it
>>>>> fenced off to funnel customers into the showroom. I had to show my
>>>>> salesman how to open the hood!!! The sales manager called me 'cheap'
>>>>> because I didn't want to pay the extra $500 that just showed up on the
>>>>> paperwork. Not even the friggin dealer documentation fee, which was
>>>>> $700!!!!! Never will I set foot in Togoa land again.......
>>>>> In contrast, I was in and made a deal with Hyundai in 5 minutes. Took
>>>>> the moon roof cost off without me even saying a word, gave me $1500
>>>>> more off, got the rebate, and I had so little to pay between the new
>>>>> car
>>>>> and the old one that I couldn't make the $10,000 limit to get another
>>>>> $1000 rebate from Hyundai Finance that they wrote ME a check for
>>>>> $6000!!!!! to make the difference. Then I paid it off in 3 months
>>>>> with
>>>>> no penalty. Now THAT'S what I like. I've been buying new cars every 2
>>>>> years for the last 40 years and never had that experience.
>>>>
>>>> I had a pretty positive sales experience as well. Unfortunately, I got
>>>> a
>>>> card in the mail that my salesman has since left the dealership and
>>>> somebody else took his place. Haven't been back so no idea how the new
>>>> guy will be.
>>>>
>>>> A new car every two years! Either you are a traveling salesman or you
>>>> have more money than brains! :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>
>

 

"Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:g6OWg.22948$zF5.16043@bignews1.bellsouth.net. ..

> OH, I'm not saying they were worn out at 50,000 miles!!!

I responded to this very quote from your original post...

You said - "Four years and 50,000 miles was at the end of warrantees and,
since they were American cars, they were worn out by then. Sad, but true."

It was hard to read something other than what you said into what you said...

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

 

"Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:maOWg.22950$zF5.2104@bignews1.bellsouth.net.. .

> I was too hasty in saying they were worn out. I guess I was caught up in
> the 'moment'. Senioritis syndrome.......

It's all right. We all do that. Ask me how I know...

> I just seemed that, at 50,000
> miles, you started hearing all kinds of expensive sounds that talked you
> into trading before the perceived sounds became a reality. Now, some of
the
> older 1960's and 1970's cars WERE worn out by then! Reference any early
> model Chrysler product pre-Ioccoa.
>

Agreed that back in the "good old days" we often faced some major repairs at
mileage levels that today go unnoticed. The average car today will go well
over 100,000 with no major problems (although they may indeed present some
mind-boggling nusances), and today's engines can well be expected to run
200,000 with only the most fundamental level of care. Keep the oil changed,
don't overheat it, etc. If you have to pay to get things repaired though,
even those mind-boggling nusances can get expensive.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

 

<Old_Timer> wrote in message
news:rveni2tjh2t195hmofjtfbo1nrcefi62ad@4ax.com...

>
> I have made no such comment. In fact, I will say my 1996 Dodge
> Dakota has over 100,000 miles and is still in "cherry" condition.
>

Sorry - I got lost in the attributes. My bad.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

 

"Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:lp4Xg.22677$vi3.138@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> Amen, Old Timer!!
> I think a lot of these young 'whipper snappers' have no idea what 50,000
> miles on a 1950's era car really meant. Hell, even the tires were good
> for only 10,000 miles or so. I had to have my 54 chevy rebuilt after
> 40,000 miles when I bought it for $395. Had to finance it for a year.
> )
>

And a 150 mile trip was and adventure on the two lane roads compared to the
turnpikes and interstates we use today. Not to mention the headlights at
night and lack of street lighting, poor road signs.

My first car was a '53 Mercury Monterey. If it held fluid, it leaked. I
carried oil, water/antifreeze mix, and trans fluid. Getting 3 years from a
battery was excellent. Plugs were cleaned every 5k and replaced at 10k.
Points lasted maybe 10k but often needed a tweak between. It did have an
automatic choke that had to be cleaned a couple of times a year to function.
IIRC the radio had tubes and being a technological oriented kind of guy, I
added a rear seat speaker.

Just got rid of my '91 Regal with the original exhaust system still in
place. Second set of plugs, only serious repair was a water pump at 80k so
at that time the radiator hoses and serpentine belt were replaced. It was
on battery number 3 after 15 years.