Edgar MacArthur

The owners' manual for the 2007 SF says: "Unleaded gasoline with a Pump
Octane Rating of 87(Research Octane Number 91) or Higher must be used.
For improved vehicle Performance, premium unleaded gasoline with Pump
Octane Rating of 91(RON 95) or higher is recommended."


What do they mean by "improved performance"? Will higher octane result
in more horsepower?

Matt Whiting

Edgar MacArthur wrote:
> The owners' manual for the 2007 SF says: "Unleaded gasoline with a Pump
> Octane Rating of 87(Research Octane Number 91) or Higher must be used.
> For improved vehicle Performance, premium unleaded gasoline with Pump
> Octane Rating of 91(RON 95) or higher is recommended."
>
>
> What do they mean by "improved performance"? Will higher octane result
> in more horsepower?

In some cars, yes, it will. The reason is that with lower octane the
engine will knock. Modern engines have knock sensors and when knock is
detected the engine control computer will take action (retarding the
timing is a fairly common action) to eliminate the condition causing the
knock. The action taken results in a loss of power.

Matt

Edwin Pawlowski

"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
news:AOs_h.9759$Oc.219116@news1.epix.net...
> Edgar MacArthur wrote:

>> What do they mean by "improved performance"? Will higher octane result in
>> more horsepower?
>
> In some cars, yes, it will. The reason is that with lower octane the
> engine will knock. Modern engines have knock sensors and when knock is
> detected the engine control computer will take action (retarding the
> timing is a fairly common action) to eliminate the condition causing the
> knock. The action taken results in a loss of power.

Keep in mind - - - - SOME CARS - - - - . Most cars are designed to run on
87 octane and using the more expensive premium fuel just wastes money.
Mercedes, Corvette, and some performance cars can use the hi-octane stuff
and even require it.

Matt Whiting

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
> news:AOs_h.9759$Oc.219116@news1.epix.net...
>> Edgar MacArthur wrote:
>
>>> What do they mean by "improved performance"? Will higher octane result in
>>> more horsepower?
>> In some cars, yes, it will. The reason is that with lower octane the
>> engine will knock. Modern engines have knock sensors and when knock is
>> detected the engine control computer will take action (retarding the
>> timing is a fairly common action) to eliminate the condition causing the
>> knock. The action taken results in a loss of power.
>
> Keep in mind - - - - SOME CARS - - - - . Most cars are designed to run on
> 87 octane and using the more expensive premium fuel just wastes money.
> Mercedes, Corvette, and some performance cars can use the hi-octane stuff
> and even require it.
>
>

Yes, absolutely. Read the owners manual first to see if premium is
specified. If not, don't waste your money.

Matt

Steve R.

A concern of mine just popped into my head regarding octane after reading
this post.

I am hoping to move to Southern New Mexico relatively soon and the base
grade there and in El Paso are 86...

Looks like I'll be doing the mid grade...

Any thoughts or comments on this scenario?

Steve-AZ



"Edgar MacArthur" <edgarmac@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:9Zq_h.6737$2V1.4584@trnddc08...
> The owners' manual for the 2007 SF says: "Unleaded gasoline with a Pump
> Octane Rating of 87(Research Octane Number 91) or Higher must be used. For
> improved vehicle Performance, premium unleaded gasoline with Pump Octane
> Rating of 91(RON 95) or higher is recommended."
>
>
> What do they mean by "improved performance"? Will higher octane result in
> more horsepower?
>

Darby OGill

"Steve R." <sarinaz@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:W9N_h.8013$ya1.4274@news02.roc.ny...
>A concern of mine just popped into my head regarding octane after reading
>this post.
>
> I am hoping to move to Southern New Mexico relatively soon and the base
> grade there and in El Paso are 86...
>
> Looks like I'll be doing the mid grade...
>
> Any thoughts or comments on this scenario?
>
> Steve-AZ
>

If the manual says 87 is OK, I'd try the 86 and see how it goes, for one
short ride.(or partial tankful). If it requires higher per the manual, you
probably won't want to do that.....It depends how/where you drive. Other
than on a long trip, I might experiment-find out where the engine begins to
get unhappy - if it knocks,ease up and top off with premium......hard
accel/uphill/towing is really where ping happens......40 mph in Kansas
you'll get by with the "cheap" stuff probably. Towing a camper to the summit
of some mountain is a different story.
>
>
> "Edgar MacArthur" <edgarmac@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:9Zq_h.6737$2V1.4584@trnddc08...
>> The owners' manual for the 2007 SF says: "Unleaded gasoline with a Pump
>> Octane Rating of 87(Research Octane Number 91) or Higher must be used.
>> For improved vehicle Performance, premium unleaded gasoline with Pump
>> Octane Rating of 91(RON 95) or higher is recommended."
>>
>>
>> What do they mean by "improved performance"? Will higher octane result in
>> more horsepower?
>>
>
>
>

Matt Whiting

Darby OGill wrote:
> "Steve R." <sarinaz@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
> news:W9N_h.8013$ya1.4274@news02.roc.ny...
>> A concern of mine just popped into my head regarding octane after reading
>> this post.
>>
>> I am hoping to move to Southern New Mexico relatively soon and the base
>> grade there and in El Paso are 86...
>>
>> Looks like I'll be doing the mid grade...
>>
>> Any thoughts or comments on this scenario?
>>
>> Steve-AZ
>>
>
> If the manual says 87 is OK, I'd try the 86 and see how it goes, for one
> short ride.(or partial tankful). If it requires higher per the manual, you
> probably won't want to do that.....It depends how/where you drive. Other
> than on a long trip, I might experiment-find out where the engine begins to
> get unhappy - if it knocks,ease up and top off with premium......hard
> accel/uphill/towing is really where ping happens......40 mph in Kansas
> you'll get by with the "cheap" stuff probably. Towing a camper to the summit
> of some mountain is a different story.

With most modern cars you won't here pinging unless the gas is really
bad and the computer can't retard the timing enough to stop it. You
will just see a loss in performance and probably gas mileage. It is
probably worth the experiment, although it would likely take 5 tankfuls
to get an accurate enough gas mileage average to really compare to 87
octane. Unless the price difference between 86 and 87 was huge, I'd pay
the few cents more for what the manual specifies.

Matt

sparemespamrep@yahoo.invalid

On Fri, 04 May 2007 21:00:38 GMT, "Steve R." <sarinaz@frontiernet.net>
wrote:

>A concern of mine just popped into my head regarding octane after reading
>this post.
>
>I am hoping to move to Southern New Mexico relatively soon and the base
>grade there and in El Paso are 86...
>
>Looks like I'll be doing the mid grade...
>
>Any thoughts or comments on this scenario?
>
>Steve-AZ
>
>

Keep in mind that octane requirements are to some degree related to
combustion chamber pressure. Combustion chamber pressure in a
normally aspired engine is somewhat related to ambient atmospheric
pressure. So, the engine's power ratings and octane requirements are
normally rated at 29.92 inches of mercury and 59 degrees F unless
otherwise stated.

With Southren New Mexico and the El Paso area being at around 4,000
feet, the engine will not see maximum combustion chamber pressures (or
horse power) unless your driving a turbo charged model.

Drop by your local airport and I'm sure you'll find someone willing to
calculate the air pressure at that altitude, or show you a pressure
lapse rate chart.

So, my thought is you'll never notice anything unusual going on at 86
octane and you will be wasting money using higher octane gas, unless,
of course, you have a model which states "For improved vehicle
Performance, premium unleaded gasoline with Pump Octane Rating of
91(RON 95) or higher is recommended..", or you add a turbo charger.

Tom Debski

Edwin Pawlowski

"Steve R." <sarinaz@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:W9N_h.8013$ya1.4274@news02.roc.ny...
>A concern of mine just popped into my head regarding octane after reading
>this post.
>
> I am hoping to move to Southern New Mexico relatively soon and the base
> grade there and in El Paso are 86...
>
> Looks like I'll be doing the mid grade...
>
> Any thoughts or comments on this scenario?
>
> Steve-AZ

Really? Is there an 87 or does it stop to the normal 89 for mid grade?

I recall that Sunoco used to sell a low grade so they could advertise a low
price but I don't know of many people that actually used it. That was the
old 190 blend. Regular was 200 and you could go up to the super premium
260. In my travels I've not seen anything less than 87 for quite a few
years now.

Darby OGill

">
> Really? Is there an 87 or does it stop to the normal 89 for mid grade?
>
> I recall that Sunoco used to sell a low grade so they could advertise a
> low price but I don't know of many people that actually used it. That was
> the old 190 blend. Regular was 200 and you could go up to the super
> premium 260. In my travels I've not seen anything less than 87 for quite
> a few years now. ....when I drove across country a few years ago I was
> suprised in some states to see 86 as the regular grade and then a mid
> grade (89)....no 87.

Matt Whiting

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Steve R." <sarinaz@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
> news:W9N_h.8013$ya1.4274@news02.roc.ny...
>> A concern of mine just popped into my head regarding octane after reading
>> this post.
>>
>> I am hoping to move to Southern New Mexico relatively soon and the base
>> grade there and in El Paso are 86...
>>
>> Looks like I'll be doing the mid grade...
>>
>> Any thoughts or comments on this scenario?
>>
>> Steve-AZ
>
> Really? Is there an 87 or does it stop to the normal 89 for mid grade?
>
> I recall that Sunoco used to sell a low grade so they could advertise a low
> price but I don't know of many people that actually used it. That was the
> old 190 blend. Regular was 200 and you could go up to the super premium
> 260. In my travels I've not seen anything less than 87 for quite a few
> years now.
>
>

I saw 86 when I took my vacation in the southwest two years ago (NV, AZ,
etc.). I was surprised as you never see less than 87 in the northeast,
but it probably is due to something like the lower ambient air pressure
as another poster mentioned.

Matt

QX

>With Southren New Mexico and the El Paso area being at around 4,000
>feet, the engine will not see maximum combustion chamber pressures (or
>horse power) unless your driving a turbo charged model.

FWIW, in my Subaru Forester XT, I definitely see a difference in fuel.
My wife, who ususally drives the Sonata, filled my tank with 87
instead of the recommended 91. Ran very poorly. But then as you say,
the turbo does make a difference. BTW, I normally drive at 2000 ft,
but drove up to a 7800ft trailhead for a hiking trip, and really
noticed it then.

Richard

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>> "Steve R." <sarinaz@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
>> news:W9N_h.8013$ya1.4274@news02.roc.ny...
>>> A concern of mine just popped into my head regarding octane after
>>> reading this post.
>>>
>>> I am hoping to move to Southern New Mexico relatively soon and the
>>> base grade there and in El Paso are 86...
>>>
>>> Looks like I'll be doing the mid grade...
>>>
>>> Any thoughts or comments on this scenario?
>>>
>>> Steve-AZ
>>
>> Really? Is there an 87 or does it stop to the normal 89 for mid grade?
>>
>> I recall that Sunoco used to sell a low grade so they could advertise
>> a low price but I don't know of many people that actually used it.
>> That was the old 190 blend. Regular was 200 and you could go up to
>> the super premium 260. In my travels I've not seen anything less than
>> 87 for quite a few years now.
>>
>
> I saw 86 when I took my vacation in the southwest two years ago (NV, AZ,
> etc.). I was surprised as you never see less than 87 in the northeast,
> but it probably is due to something like the lower ambient air pressure
> as another poster mentioned.
>
> Matt
Sav-On gas stations around Oneida, NY sell 86 octane gasoline.

Michael

"QX" <nomail@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:l92p33llddeiaao8csfr3ovf2ti3s0kg6j@4ax.com...
>
>
>>With Southren New Mexico and the El Paso area being at around 4,000
>>feet, the engine will not see maximum combustion chamber pressures (or
>>horse power) unless your driving a turbo charged model.
>
> FWIW, in my Subaru Forester XT, I definitely see a difference in fuel.
> My wife, who ususally drives the Sonata, filled my tank with 87
> instead of the recommended 91. Ran very poorly. But then as you say,
> the turbo does make a difference. BTW, I normally drive at 2000 ft,
> but drove up to a 7800ft trailhead for a hiking trip, and really
> noticed it then.

In many older engines you need less octane for mountains like the 454 in
my motorhome, I take it that changed with the newer engines.

Michael

Larry Harvilla

Steve R. wrote:
> A concern of mine just popped into my head regarding octane after reading
> this post.
>
> I am hoping to move to Southern New Mexico relatively soon and the base
> grade there and in El Paso are 86...
>
> Looks like I'll be doing the mid grade...
>
> Any thoughts or comments on this scenario?


Just saw this message three weeks after most of the thread had played
itself out, hence the e-mail to the OP as well as the post to the group.

At higher elevations like you find in southern NM and western TX, the
lighter air by itself acts to reduce knocking without the need for any
particular octane rating. The compression in the cylinder is lower at
5,000 ft than at sea level, meaning that even lower-octane fuels will
not knock nearly as easily.

It is for this reason that 85/87/91 are the three "standard" octane
ratings in much of the Rockies and Mountain West region, while 87/89/93
tends to be predominant at lower elevations. Your .sig said something
about Arizona, so I will take the liberty of assuming you live(d) in the
most heavily populated part of that state: metro Phoenix (elev. ~1,000
ft.), where 87/89/93 are probably standard because of the lower elevations.

As long as you're going to stay at higher elevations, you should be
perfectly safe to run 85 octane fuel in a car whose manual calls for 87.
A lot of things, from octane ratings to cooking directions for food, are
written with total neglect of the effects of higher elevation (e.g.,
water boils at +203F in Denver, not +212F), and it sounds like your
manual is no different.

The only time you would really need to worry is if you're taking longer
trips outside of high-elevation regions. If you take 85 octane fuel much
below ~3,500 ft., it will definitely start to knock and cause all the
problems that knocking causes. This would be where you'd want to get the
87 octane fuel, e.g. somewhere between Midland and Abilene if you're
headed for Dallas, or somewhere before you drop down into Tucson if
you're headed back for AZ. OTOH, the 85 octane should be fine for a trip
up I-25 to Albuquerque, since that's all in higher terrain.

--
Larry Harvilla
e-mail: larry AT phatpage DOT org
blog-aliciousness: http://www.phatpage.org/news/

Highways section still in progress at http://www.phatpage.org/highways.html