Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
>>You can always start the pump, then sit in the car while it fills the
>>tank. It the station is one of the stupid ones that removes the latches
>>from the pump handles, use your gas cap or one of the devices made for
>>holding the pump lever to keep the pump running while you sit in the car.
>>For that matter, you can make one really easily.
>
>
> I do that often even in good weather so I can clean the windshield or
> whatever. Hard to find a pump with a latch these days but there is one I
> station I use often. The Self Serve pumps also seem to pump slower than the
> older ones too.
>
> The one Shell station go use has a printed warning on the handle not to
> leave the pump. The fear is static shock when you get out of the car in
> winter and cause an arc. I always ground myself getting out anyway. .
> This was interesting.
> http://www.pei.org/static/

Preventing fuel spills is also a big concern. If the automatic shut-off
fails, a lot of gas can be spilled by the time you realize it when you
are on the other side of the car washing windows.


Matt

 

"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
>
> Preventing fuel spills is also a big concern. If the automatic shut-off
> fails, a lot of gas can be spilled by the time you realize it when you are
> on the other side of the car washing windows.
>

And you can get hit by a car crossing the street so wear clean underwear.

Yes, it can happen. Have you ever been to a station on the Jersey Turnpike
or the like? Or in a busy city station? One attendant will often be
fueling three or four cars at a time. It is a scenario that happens
thousands of times a day all over the country. They depend on the automatic
shut-off to work. So do I.

 

"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
>
> Preventing fuel spills is also a big concern. If the automatic shut-off
> fails, a lot of gas can be spilled by the time you realize it when you are
> on the other side of the car washing windows.
>

And you can get hit by a car crossing the street so wear clean underwear.

Yes, it can happen. Have you ever been to a station on the Jersey Turnpike
or the like? Or in a busy city station? One attendant will often be
fueling three or four cars at a time. It is a scenario that happens
thousands of times a day all over the country. They depend on the automatic
shut-off to work. So do I.

 

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
>
>>Preventing fuel spills is also a big concern. If the automatic shut-off
>>fails, a lot of gas can be spilled by the time you realize it when you are
>>on the other side of the car washing windows.
>>
>
>
> And you can get hit by a car crossing the street so wear clean underwear.
>
> Yes, it can happen. Have you ever been to a station on the Jersey Turnpike
> or the like? Or in a busy city station? One attendant will often be
> fueling three or four cars at a time. It is a scenario that happens
> thousands of times a day all over the country. They depend on the automatic
> shut-off to work. So do I.

A lot of dumb things get done in NJ. Just remember that in most states
you can and will be held liable for the clean-up costs. I hope you have
good insurance as that can get pricey.

Matt

 

"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
>
> A lot of dumb things get done in NJ. Just remember that in most states
> you can and will be held liable for the clean-up costs. I hope you have
> good insurance as that can get pricey.
>
> Matt

Matt, for the past 45 years I've been driving, I've probably bought fuel
over 3000 times. During that time, I've seen tens of thousands of cars
filled either by self serve or attendants. Maybe I've just been lucky, but
I've never seen a spill from a defective pump shutoff. This sort of
activity has been going on all over the world, tens of thousands of time a
day. I suspect it has happened, but not enough that I'm going to change my
ways, nor will I worry about the cleanup costs. Just light a match and it
will be clean in seconds.

If you ever see me at the pump, just wave and move on because I'm not going
to grab the handle just to calm your fears. If they were a serious danger,
they would have been eliminated many years ago.

 

Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote in
news:divRg.1464$Db4.184363@news1.epix.net:

> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
>>
>>>Preventing fuel spills is also a big concern. If the automatic
>>>shut-off fails, a lot of gas can be spilled by the time you realize
>>>it when you are on the other side of the car washing windows.
>>>
>>
>>
>> And you can get hit by a car crossing the street so wear clean
>> underwear.
>>
>> Yes, it can happen. Have you ever been to a station on the Jersey
>> Turnpike or the like? Or in a busy city station? One attendant will
>> often be fueling three or four cars at a time. It is a scenario
>> that happens thousands of times a day all over the country. They
>> depend on the automatic shut-off to work. So do I.
>
> A lot of dumb things get done in NJ. Just remember that in most
> states you can and will be held liable for the clean-up costs. I hope
> you have good insurance as that can get pricey.
>
> Matt
>

Actually, I think a better, and more accurate statement, would be that a
lot of dumb things get done in every state.

In my late teens and early twenties I was a petroleum distribution
engineer here in NJ. I worked at a very busy highway station (not on
the NJTP) and we would sometimes have eight cars going on one attendent,
with up to 24 cars fueling simultaneously. Not only did we NEVER have a
shutoff failure, I never even heard of that happening until you
mentioned it above. I would have to say that it is damn near
impossible. But I am sure it has probably happened somewhere. And
didn't someone get killed recently by falling debris from an airplane?
I would think that might be more likely than a spill from a failed fuel
cut-off.

Eric

 

"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
news:2GgRg.1455$Db4.182608@news1.epix.net...
> Brian Nystrom wrote:
>> Matt Whiting wrote:
>>
>>> taters2 wrote:
>>>
>>>> Has everyone went to the fuel pump in tank and why?
>>>
>>>
>>> Less chance of vapor lock is one reason.
>>
>>
>> Fuel injection pretty much eliminated that problem, though your point is
>> still valid.
>
> I haven't seen a fuel injector yet that takes fuel direction from the tank
> and injects it into the engine. The fuel needs to get from the tank to
> the point of injection so there is still lots of fuel line that can vapor
> lock if not under pressure or with sufficent flow. Fuel injection doesn't
> change much with respect to vapor lock.
>
>
> Matt

The way pressure regulation is performed with fuel injection, and an
electric in tank pump prevents vapor lock. The pump pumps fuel up to the
fuel rail. The pressure is regulated by a valve which opens and returns fuel
to the tank over a second line when the desired pressure is achieved. That,
and the fact that you are dealing with a pressurized line from the tank to
the fuel rail, rather than a line where you are trying to "suck" the fuel
from the tank to the intake of the pump. So... BOTH conditions you
mentioned - pressure and flow - are always present with fuel injection. Any
fuel vapor in the line when the vehicle is turned off is instantly
compressed into tiny bubbles as soon as the pump pressurizes the line when
the key is turned on. Those tiny bubbles will be swept through the fuel
rail, and into the return line when the pump restarts when the vehicle
starts.

 

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
>
>>A lot of dumb things get done in NJ. Just remember that in most states
>>you can and will be held liable for the clean-up costs. I hope you have
>>good insurance as that can get pricey.
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> Matt, for the past 45 years I've been driving, I've probably bought fuel
> over 3000 times. During that time, I've seen tens of thousands of cars
> filled either by self serve or attendants. Maybe I've just been lucky, but
> I've never seen a spill from a defective pump shutoff. This sort of
> activity has been going on all over the world, tens of thousands of time a
> day. I suspect it has happened, but not enough that I'm going to change my
> ways, nor will I worry about the cleanup costs. Just light a match and it
> will be clean in seconds.

There was a spill two weeks ago at a station near my home. It was
caused by someone sticking the fuel cap in the handle as most
self-service stations in PA don't have ratchet piece in the handle to
allow the pump to be locked on. I remember wondering (as I read the
sign warning consumers of their liability for spills and warning them
not to leave the pump unattended while fueling) what the clean-up was
going to cost the guy as the station owner put containment "snakes"
around the spill and waited for the hazmat folks to arrive.


> If you ever see me at the pump, just wave and move on because I'm not going
> to grab the handle just to calm your fears. If they were a serious danger,
> they would have been eliminated many years ago.

I wouldn't expect you to from what you've posted already. Some folks
don't have a lot of common sense. Fires from static caused by plastic
gas jugs and sliding across the seat in your car also rarely happen, but
they do happen and it takes little to prevent them. However, many folks
just think it won't happen to them.

Matt

 

Bob wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
> news:2GgRg.1455$Db4.182608@news1.epix.net...
>
>>Brian Nystrom wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Whiting wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>taters2 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Has everyone went to the fuel pump in tank and why?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Less chance of vapor lock is one reason.
>>>
>>>
>>>Fuel injection pretty much eliminated that problem, though your point is
>>>still valid.
>>
>>I haven't seen a fuel injector yet that takes fuel direction from the tank
>>and injects it into the engine. The fuel needs to get from the tank to
>>the point of injection so there is still lots of fuel line that can vapor
>>lock if not under pressure or with sufficent flow. Fuel injection doesn't
>>change much with respect to vapor lock.
>>
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> The way pressure regulation is performed with fuel injection, and an
> electric in tank pump prevents vapor lock. The pump pumps fuel up to the
> fuel rail. The pressure is regulated by a valve which opens and returns fuel
> to the tank over a second line when the desired pressure is achieved. That,
> and the fact that you are dealing with a pressurized line from the tank to
> the fuel rail, rather than a line where you are trying to "suck" the fuel
> from the tank to the intake of the pump. So... BOTH conditions you
> mentioned - pressure and flow - are always present with fuel injection. Any
> fuel vapor in the line when the vehicle is turned off is instantly
> compressed into tiny bubbles as soon as the pump pressurizes the line when
> the key is turned on. Those tiny bubbles will be swept through the fuel
> rail, and into the return line when the pump restarts when the vehicle
> starts.

You missed my point entirely. This has nothing to do with fuel
injection. A similar closed loop system could just as easily be used
with a carburetor.

Matt

 

"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
>
> There was a spill two weeks ago at a station near my home. It was caused
> by someone sticking the fuel cap in the handle as most self-service
> stations in PA don't have ratchet piece in the handle to allow the pump to
> be locked on.

I have to wonder about the details.l If the pump had a ratchet handle, it
may have actually prevented the accident. For the system to work properly,
the nozzle has to be inserted at least a little ways intot he filler neck.
How far, I don't know. If the cap sticker did not properly place the nozzle
because of the cap, it may have caused the problem. It may have fallen out
of the filler pipe completely. Could be a lot of stupid things. Some
people should not be allowed to pump gas under any circumstances.


>
> I wouldn't expect you to from what you've posted already. Some folks
> don't have a lot of common sense. Fires from static caused by plastic gas
> jugs and sliding across the seat in your car also rarely happen, but they
> do happen and it takes little to prevent them. However, many folks just
> think it won't happen to them.

See, that is where we differ. I have a lot of common sense. If I have to
get back in the car, I do ground myself long before reaching the filler
area. Common sense will prevent many accidents. Since many people have
none, it may be best to have full service again. Some towns in MA and the
entire state of NJ forbid SS for that reason.

 

"Edwin Pawlowski" <esp@snet.net> wrote in message
news:7jERg.4187$vJ2.323@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com ...
>
> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
> >
> > There was a spill two weeks ago at a station near my home. It was
caused
> > by someone sticking the fuel cap in the handle as most self-service
> > stations in PA don't have ratchet piece in the handle to allow the pump
to
> > be locked on.
>
> I have to wonder about the details.l If the pump had a ratchet handle, it
> may have actually prevented the accident. For the system to work properly,
> the nozzle has to be inserted at least a little ways intot he filler neck.
> How far, I don't know. If the cap sticker did not properly place the
nozzle
> because of the cap, it may have caused the problem. It may have fallen
out
> of the filler pipe completely. Could be a lot of stupid things. Some
> people should not be allowed to pump gas under any circumstances.

This is not a problem of sticking the gas cap in the handle. The pump
nozzle is required to sense when fuel is up in the filler neck. That's a
defective pump nozzle, not a problem with ratchets or gas caps.


--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

 

Boy! I'm glad I ask about why do they put the Fuel Pump in the Gas Tank!I
became very interested in the fact it turned into an open forum of about
gassing your car!Now I can talk from experience and it is the best
teacher! Do Not Put the nozzle on automatic and get back into the car!
Leaving it to wash the W/S is bad enought!I have owned Sevice stations and
Later I hauled Gasoline to Service Stations and to the Farmers! Gasoline
does not make friends!I have seen countless failures of automatic nozzles!
It scares me the most when someone smokes while pumping the gas! My son was
caught on fire with gasoline, It burns fast and terribly! Just don't take
the chance PLEASE!!!!Now back to the original thing on vapor lock! I am
very familiar with vapor lock! can be cured on the older cars very easily.
It always ocurred between the fuel pump and carbureator due to the motor
heat va[porizing the gas in the line!About 2-3 clothes pins would act as
heat sinks and stop the problem-

 

Mechanical pumps usually put out about 6-8 psi, whereas electric pumps are
typically regulated to 35 to 60 psi, while being capable of delivering up
to 90 to 100 psi. The fuel pressures necessary to operate the fuel
injectors led the way to the use of the electric fuel pump.

 

If the system is functioning as designed, it cannot vapor lock. The system
should keep 20 to 25 psi in the line forever (until the line is opened).
You have a regulator and a fuel pump check valve that should prevent the
fuel pressure from going below that level.

 

hyundaitech wrote:

> Mechanical pumps usually put out about 6-8 psi, whereas electric pumps are
> typically regulated to 35 to 60 psi, while being capable of delivering up
> to 90 to 100 psi. The fuel pressures necessary to operate the fuel
> injectors led the way to the use of the electric fuel pump.

Mechanical pumps can easily be designed to put out a lot more than 6-8
psi. Think diesel injector pump. I don't think pressure had anything
to do with the move to electric fuel pumps. I don't know all the
reasons why the move was made, but I think it is simply better all
around to push the fuel rather than pull it and it would be very hard to
get a mechanically operated fuel pump back by the fuel tank!


Matt