Bill Rider

ranck@vt.edu wrote:
> ROBERTMARKMAN@SBCGLOBAL.NET <ROBERTMARKMAN@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> I certainly believe that the dealer should be more expert at
>> diagnosing and handling Hyundai problems than Auto Zone. That's why I
>
> It seems to me you should have taken the car to a different Hyundai
> dealership for a second opinion while it was still in warranty.
> I have had an alternator that tested OK that was killing batteries
> in a Nissan once. So it is possible the alternator has a problem,
> but there are occasional bad batteries that go bad way too soon.
>
> So far, you've had one new battery go bad after the original, and
> you don't say how long the original lasted if it was 4 or 5 years
> old then that is about average. Not great, but not terrible either.
>
> Without knowing what tests the dealer and Autozone did, and what
> they are basing their opinions on, I won't guess who is correct.
> A good independent mechanic might be a better choice to sort this
> out correctly.
>
> As far as Hyundai warranty goes, the dealers in this area have
> treated my daughter very well and even replaced light bulbs under
> the bumper-to-bumper warranty. She has not had any trouble with
> her Elantra getting warranty work, though it has needed very little
> and has been quite a reliable car for her.
>
> Bill Ranck
> Blacksburg, Va.

If the Auto Zone guy said an Elantra alternator should put out only 13
amps, it sounds as if he was checking the charging current at the
battery. If the current was only 9 amps instead of the expected 13,
that could be because the battery had been completely dead, as the OP
said. A dead battery won't charge fast. I think it's because the
electrolyte is weak.

The dealer found different parasitic draws on different days. I ran
into something like that. Unplugging the alternator from the regulator
stopped the drain. I was pretty sure the alternator wasn't supposed to
draw any current at all when the engine was off.

Replacing the alternator stopped the battery from going dead sometimes.
Whatever was wrong with it, apparently some nights it drew enough
current to drain the battery overnight.

I wonder what Auto Zone charges for a rebuilt alternator.

ROBERTMARKMAN@SBCGLOBAL.NET

On Dec 13, 12:35 am, Bill Rider <ple...@nospa.mnet> wrote:
> ra...@vt.edu wrote:
> > ROBERTMARK...@SBCGLOBAL.NET <ROBERTMARK...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >> I certainly believe that the dealer should be more expert at
> >> diagnosing and handlingHyundaiproblems than Auto Zone. That's why I
>
> > It seems to me you should have taken the car to a differentHyundai
> > dealership for a second opinion while it was still inwarranty.
> > I have had an alternator that tested OK that was killing batteries
> > in a Nissan once. So it is possible the alternator has a problem,
> > but there are occasional bad batteries that go bad way too soon.
>
> > So far, you've had one new battery go bad after the original, and
> > you don't say how long the original lasted if it was 4 or 5 years
> > old then that is about average. Not great, but not terrible either.
>
> > Without knowing what tests the dealer and Autozone did, and what
> > they are basing their opinions on, I won't guess who is correct.
> > A good independent mechanic might be a better choice to sort this
> > out correctly.
>
> > As far asHyundaiwarrantygoes, the dealers in this area have
> > treated my daughter very well and even replaced light bulbs under
> > the bumper-to-bumperwarranty. She has not had any trouble with
> > her Elantra gettingwarrantywork, though it has needed very little
> > and has been quite a reliable car for her.
>
> > Bill Ranck
> > Blacksburg, Va.
>
> If the Auto Zone guy said an Elantra alternator should put out only 13
> amps, it sounds as if he was checking the charging current at the
> battery. If the current was only 9 amps instead of the expected 13,
> that could be because the battery had been completely dead, as the OP
> said. A dead battery won't charge fast. I think it's because the
> electrolyte is weak.
>
> The dealer found different parasitic draws on different days. I ran
> into something like that. Unplugging the alternator from the regulator
> stopped the drain. I was pretty sure the alternator wasn't supposed to
> draw any current at all when the engine was off.
>
> Replacing the alternator stopped the battery from going dead sometimes.
> Whatever was wrong with it, apparently some nights it drew enough
> current to drain the battery overnight.
>
> I wonder what Auto Zone charges for a rebuilt alternator.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I don't even know if Auto Zone sells a Hyundai alternator. Even if
they do, I am not capable of working on the car and therefore have to
bring the car to a garage or dealership for both parts and labor.

hyundaitech

I don't recall the beginning of this thread, but here goes:

1. Charging *Voltage* should be about 13.5 to 15.5 *Volts.* This is
measured at the battery terminals.

2. Insufficient charging voltage is just one way for an alternator to
fail.

3. The voltage regulator is inside the alternator. I find it difficult
to believe that the alternator was unplugged from the regulator.

4. It is possible for an alternator to have a parasitic draw. This is
not normal and will discharge a battery, but typically requires sitting a
significant time without driving for the discharge to occur.

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Eric G.

"hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> wrote in
news:4460a723915874f87393b5c6066eb23e@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com:

> 4. It is possible for an alternator to have a parasitic draw. This
> is not normal and will discharge a battery, but typically requires
> sitting a significant time without driving for the discharge to occur.

Just like my 1988 Chevy pickup. I let it sit for a few months at a time
and the battery is almost always "dead". There is enough juice to run the
lights and radio, but it won't turn her over.

Strangely, even after many discharges, the battery is fine as long as I
keep the water level up and drive it for 15 minutes. Then I could probably
run it forever without a jump.

Thank goodness for those nice, portable battery packs.

Eric

hyundaitech

When we're talking about months at a time, even normal parasitic draws can
drain a battery.

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Eric G.

"hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> wrote in
news:b2f52b56322d1d47db57519f525be18d@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com:

> When we're talking about months at a time, even normal parasitic draws
> can drain a battery.

Absolutely! What surprises me is that after it charges it stays charged
until the next time it sits. I could see this happening a few times, but
this battery has been going for about 4 years of this now.

Eric

Bill Rider

hyundaitech wrote:
> I don't recall the beginning of this thread, but here goes:

The OP is in misc.consumers.frugal-living. I crossposted here because I
don't have a Hyundai.
>
> 1. Charging *Voltage* should be about 13.5 to 15.5 *Volts.* This is
> measured at the battery terminals.

The OP said his alternator was bad because Auto Zone tested amps. I
wondered about that.
>
> 2. Insufficient charging voltage is just one way for an alternator to
> fail.

I used diodes to make a dashboard DC meter for 12 - 15 V. If I have the
headlights on and the blower on high and the meter shows 13.6 V, what
could be wrong with the alternator?

>
> 3. The voltage regulator is inside the alternator. I find it difficult
> to believe that the alternator was unplugged from the regulator.

My experience was not with a Hyundai.
>
> 4. It is possible for an alternator to have a parasitic draw. This is
> not normal and will discharge a battery, but typically requires sitting a
> significant time without driving for the discharge to occur.

It's not normal: that's what I wanted to know. I didn't know why an
alternator would need to draw parasitic current.

On my Ford years ago, on different days I measured 7 - 35 ma, as I
recall. Overnight, that didn't seem like enough to worry about, but
sometimes my battery would be dead.

I think it's because diode leakage depends on temperature and leakage
heats a diode. If the leakage were over a certain amount when I parked,
during the night the temperature and current would increase until the
battery was dead.

Twice, the OP has had fairly new batteries go dead. The dealer has
found that the vehicle's parasitic draw varies but is within specs. If
the alternator were found to have parasitic draw, wouldn't that be
reason to replace it?


>
> --
> Message posted using http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.hyundai/
> More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.html
>

Brian Nystrom

Eric G. wrote:
> "hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> wrote in
> news:b2f52b56322d1d47db57519f525be18d@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com:
>
>> When we're talking about months at a time, even normal parasitic draws
>> can drain a battery.
>
> Absolutely! What surprises me is that after it charges it stays charged
> until the next time it sits. I could see this happening a few times, but
> this battery has been going for about 4 years of this now.

There's a simple solution to the problem. Get one of the small solar
panels that's designed to trickle charge a car battery (they attach to
the inside of the windshield and plug into the cigarette lighter. You
can leave the car for months and the battery will remain charged. I did
this with my Excel and even after three months sitting, it started like
I had been driving it all along.

hyundaitech

"I used diodes to make a dashboard DC meter for 12 - 15 V. If I have the
headlights on and the blower on high and the meter shows 13.6 V, what
could be wrong with the alternator?"

As far as alternator output is concerned, it's probably okay with these
results. You're applying a significant load, so maintaining 13.6V is good
evidence to suggest that the alternator can deliver proper amperage as well
as voltage. While it doesn't often occur on Hyundais, I've seen numerous
GM alternators which fail by not being able to meet (or even come close
to) their rated amperage output. To check this properly, you'll need to
rev the engine and apply enough load to verify with an inductive ammeter
that the alternator will reach the specified output. As the load is
increased, the alternator amperage output will increase up until the point
where it reaches its maximum. The method you present, while not a
guarantee is going to yield accurate results in most circumstances. The
only thing I'd add is that you should probably turn on anything electrical
you can find that will apply a significant load-- a/c, wipers, brakes,
defogger, etc. Then rev the engine and monitor voltage. If the
alternator can keep proper voltage or close to it, it's probably fine (as
far as output is concerned).

The parasitic draw would be another way for an alternator to fail, but
doesn't necessarily affect output.


"On my Ford years ago, on different days I measured 7 - 35 ma, as I
recall. Overnight, that didn't seem like enough to worry about, but
sometimes my battery would be dead."

This shouldn't be enough to drain a battery overnight, and is in fact
typical parasitic draw. I'd suspect either a battery issue or a problem
with an intermittent draw you have yet to witness with your ammeter. An
example would be a door that every-once-in-a-while doesn't fully depress
the switch and the dome lamp comes on and goes off throughout the night as
contact is made and lost.


"Twice, the OP has had fairly new batteries go dead. The dealer has
found that the vehicle's parasitic draw varies but is within specs. If
the alternator were found to have parasitic draw, wouldn't that be
reason to replace it?"

Absolutely. An alternator should place zero parasitic draw on the
battery. If unplugging the alternator removes the draw, the alternator
should be replaced. Something is failing, and it's only a matter of time
until it gets worse or the alternator completely stops charging.


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Mike Marlow

"Eric G." <NgOrSePeAnM99@Zoptonline.Znet> wrote in message
news:Xns9A05C7EA7E992Xz124HiiUdfEEE6@140.99.99.130 ...
> "hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> wrote in
> news:b2f52b56322d1d47db57519f525be18d@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com:
>
>> When we're talking about months at a time, even normal parasitic draws
>> can drain a battery.
>
> Absolutely! What surprises me is that after it charges it stays charged
> until the next time it sits. I could see this happening a few times, but
> this battery has been going for about 4 years of this now.
>


Don't let it surprise you Eric. Draining a battery slowly that way is not
really harmful to a battery.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

Bill Rider

Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Eric G." <NgOrSePeAnM99@Zoptonline.Znet> wrote in message
> news:Xns9A05C7EA7E992Xz124HiiUdfEEE6@140.99.99.130 ...
>> "hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> wrote in
>> news:b2f52b56322d1d47db57519f525be18d@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com:
>>
>>> When we're talking about months at a time, even normal parasitic draws
>>> can drain a battery.
>> Absolutely! What surprises me is that after it charges it stays charged
>> until the next time it sits. I could see this happening a few times, but
>> this battery has been going for about 4 years of this now.
>>
>
>
> Don't let it surprise you Eric. Draining a battery slowly that way is not
> really harmful to a battery.
>
Any deep discharge will shorten the life of a car battery. It's worse
if it discharges over a long period because the longer the sulfate sits
on the plates, the harder it is to dissolve. It also shortens the life
of a battery to start the engine when it's not fully charged because
that causes sulfate to crumble and fall to the floor of the cell.

A car battery will self-discharge even if not connected to a vehicle.
It's likely to be worse with a truck battery. Trucks tend to use
conventional batteries (not maintenance-free) because conventional
batteries withstand vibration better. The self-discharge of a
conventional battery is faster. It may go flat in four months.

If a solar panel will keep a battery charged, it may greatly extend
battery life as well as keeping the vehicle ready to start.

Bill Rider

hyundaitech wrote:
> "I used diodes to make a dashboard DC meter for 12 - 15 V. If I have the
> headlights on and the blower on high and the meter shows 13.6 V, what
> could be wrong with the alternator?"
>
> As far as alternator output is concerned, it's probably okay with these
> results. You're applying a significant load, so maintaining 13.6V is good
> evidence to suggest that the alternator can deliver proper amperage as well
> as voltage. While it doesn't often occur on Hyundais, I've seen numerous
> GM alternators which fail by not being able to meet (or even come close
> to) their rated amperage output. To check this properly, you'll need to
> rev the engine and apply enough load to verify with an inductive ammeter
> that the alternator will reach the specified output. As the load is
> increased, the alternator amperage output will increase up until the point
> where it reaches its maximum. The method you present, while not a
> guarantee is going to yield accurate results in most circumstances. The
> only thing I'd add is that you should probably turn on anything electrical
> you can find that will apply a significant load-- a/c, wipers, brakes,
> defogger, etc. Then rev the engine and monitor voltage. If the
> alternator can keep proper voltage or close to it, it's probably fine (as
> far as output is concerned).

I built that meter for an old BMW motorcycle. BMW goofed in mounting an
automobile alternator directly to the crankshaft because without the
speed advantage of pulleys it didn't provide much current below highway
speeds. It was nice to see the needle sweep from 12 to 14.4 (the
charging voltage of a conventional battery) when I reached the critical
speed.
>
> The parasitic draw would be another way for an alternator to fail, but
> doesn't necessarily affect output.
>
>
> "On my Ford years ago, on different days I measured 7 - 35 ma, as I
> recall. Overnight, that didn't seem like enough to worry about, but
> sometimes my battery would be dead."
>
> This shouldn't be enough to drain a battery overnight, and is in fact
> typical parasitic draw. I'd suspect either a battery issue or a problem
> with an intermittent draw you have yet to witness with your ammeter. An
> example would be a door that every-once-in-a-while doesn't fully depress
> the switch and the dome lamp comes on and goes off throughout the night as
> contact is made and lost.

I thought the draw was normal until I discovered that unplugging the
alternator stopped it. It was an old pickup truck with a simple
electrical system, so it was easy to eliminate other possibilities such
as the dome light.

In troubleshooting electronics, a leaky semiconductor is likely to be
the cause of a problem because the leak will increase dramatically as
the semiconductor heats up. At 7ma, the diode might have to dissipate
less than 1/10 watt. That might not cause trouble overnight. If it
were warm enough to draw 50ma, that would be 6/10 watt. That could be
enough to gradually increase the temperature, which would increase the
current, which would increase the heating, which would increase the
current until the battery was drained.

Unplugging the alternator prevented battery discharge. Replacing the
alternator solved the problem.

I had a car where it was apparently the dome light that sometimes
discharged the battery. The light was on a darned timer, so even if I
parked after dark I wouldn't realize the door wasn't closed tight when I
walked away.