Bob Bailin

I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot
catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to
bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough
idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is running
too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway
speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell
which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too rich
one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be really,
really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on
the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you
put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or
glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires.

Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On some
engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter without a
pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to
see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt or
plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned gas
may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the manifold.

If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild kit and have
a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back together.
You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed.

By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than brake
cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake cleaner
generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.)

Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should be
around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in more
than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to 1100-1300
to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you want
to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve removed.
It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb cleaner into the
passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it breaks thru
the remaining blockage.

I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that when you
took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the correct side
up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are back where
they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago where
someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the engine
wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in.

Bob

"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi Bob
> I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the exhaust
manifold,
> it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong part as I
thought
> the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as you
susggested,
> except I didin't decarbonize the head.
>
>
> I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up with oil
> sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket for it. When
> depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was able to swish
> break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for recycled
exhaust.
>
> I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a used
> speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about 2 and a half
> feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards the carb,
was
> clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray some break
> cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole thing back
> together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the same
problem,
> red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I revved the
> engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the ERG is open
to
> see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the idle
changes
> slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it should. Any
> other suggestions?
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is intact),
> > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the head may
> > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. Open the
> > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is idling, and
> > see if it stalls (it should).
> >
> > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the temps in the
> > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the
> > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the temp
> > of the exhaust manifold.
> >
> > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a screwdriver.
> > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin screwdriver
> > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a
> > variable-speed drill.
> >
> > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying water
> > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use something like a
> > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb or you'll
> > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should lower the
> > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to carbon
> > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe, but
eventually
> > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a little
white
> > steam.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com...
> > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in it and it was
> > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust manifold went down
> > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the coolant temp
went
> > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I suspect that
this
> is
> > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the head. Now why is
> > this
> > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn crankshaft sprocket
as
> > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken the spocket
> > off...it
> > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's not worn.
Any
> > > other suggestion?
> > > Thanks in advance.
> > > Mike : )
> > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > >
> > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Hi PPL
> > > > >
> > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets yellow hot
and
> is
> > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only happens when the
car
> > is
> > > > > driven
> > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I suspected was
a
> > > > clogged
> > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust monifold.
> Ripped
> > > out
> > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red hot. The car
> was
> > > > > running rough
> > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the crankshaft and
> camshaft
> > > > > timing, set the
> > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), the car idles
> > > better
> > > > > now but the
> > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of plugs, no
go.
> > Made
> > > > > sure the choke was opening,
> > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines and replaced
the
> > > ones
> > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head gasket, I
> > retorqued
> > > > the
> > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct (suspected that
> the
> > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go. Replaced the
> > timing
> > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the crankshaft and
> > camshaft
> > > > are
> > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back (counter
> > > clockwise)
> > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold doesn't get red
> hot
> > > at
> > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem is that the
> idel
> > > is
> > > > a
> > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean by timing
> range
> > > is:
> > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30 degrees
BTDC
> to
> > > > TDC,
> > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to move the
> > > crankshaft
> > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that the
> crankshaft
> > > and
> > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing marks. Does
> anybody
> > > any
> > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > >
> > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If you open the
> > valve
> > > > by
> > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover the vacuum
> > nipple
> > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with the engine
> > running
> > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or stumble/stall.
> > > >
> > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into the exhaust
> > manifold
> > > > as
> > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be shot and it's
> > > pumping
> > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is too rich
> > (misfire),
> > > > this would
> > > > cause the glowing.
> > > >
> > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you removed it?
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Mike Wilson

Yeppers I'm stumped to
Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire LOL
The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct. The spark
plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection system (air jet
valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling fine so I'll
assume for now the carb is ok.
what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM when the car
is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car runs like
to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then I'll do as you
suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket wasn't put on
back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If I put the
head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG passage? I was
under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake manifold
through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to feed 2 feet
of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think that is far
enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it I put it
back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow. I was also
thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would give me a
better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if nessary.

Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem, then I think
I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : (
Bye for now
Mike


"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot
> catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to
> bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough
> idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is running
> too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway
> speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell
> which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too rich
> one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be really,
> really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on
> the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you
> put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or
> glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires.
>
> Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On some
> engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter without a
> pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to
> see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt or
> plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned gas
> may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the manifold.
>
> If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild kit and
have
> a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back together.
> You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed.
>
> By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than brake
> cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake cleaner
> generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.)
>
> Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should be
> around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in more
> than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to 1100-1300
> to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you want
> to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve removed.
> It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb cleaner into the
> passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it breaks thru
> the remaining blockage.
>
> I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that when you
> took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the correct side
> up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are back where
> they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago where
> someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the engine
> wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in.
>
> Bob
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hi Bob
> > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the exhaust
> manifold,
> > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong part as I
> thought
> > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as you
> susggested,
> > except I didin't decarbonize the head.
> >
> >
> > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up with oil
> > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket for it. When
> > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was able to
swish
> > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for recycled
> exhaust.
> >
> > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a used
> > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about 2 and a
half
> > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards the carb,
> was
> > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray some
break
> > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole thing
back
> > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the same
> problem,
> > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I revved the
> > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the ERG is open
> to
> > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the idle
> changes
> > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it should. Any
> > other suggestions?
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is intact),
> > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the head may
> > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. Open the
> > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is idling, and
> > > see if it stalls (it should).
> > >
> > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the temps in the
> > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the
> > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the temp
> > > of the exhaust manifold.
> > >
> > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a screwdriver.
> > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin screwdriver
> > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a
> > > variable-speed drill.
> > >
> > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying water
> > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use something like a
> > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb or you'll
> > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should lower the
> > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to carbon
> > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe, but
> eventually
> > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a little
> white
> > > steam.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in it and it
was
> > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust manifold went
down
> > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the coolant temp
> went
> > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I suspect that
> this
> > is
> > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the head. Now why
is
> > > this
> > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn crankshaft
sprocket
> as
> > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken the spocket
> > > off...it
> > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's not worn.
> Any
> > > > other suggestion?
> > > > Thanks in advance.
> > > > Mike : )
> > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Hi PPL
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets yellow hot
> and
> > is
> > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only happens when the
> car
> > > is
> > > > > > driven
> > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I suspected
was
> a
> > > > > clogged
> > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust monifold.
> > Ripped
> > > > out
> > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red hot. The
car
> > was
> > > > > > running rough
> > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the crankshaft and
> > camshaft
> > > > > > timing, set the
> > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), the car
idles
> > > > better
> > > > > > now but the
> > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of plugs, no
> go.
> > > Made
> > > > > > sure the choke was opening,
> > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines and replaced
> the
> > > > ones
> > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head gasket, I
> > > retorqued
> > > > > the
> > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct (suspected
that
> > the
> > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go. Replaced the
> > > timing
> > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the crankshaft and
> > > camshaft
> > > > > are
> > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back (counter
> > > > clockwise)
> > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold doesn't get
red
> > hot
> > > > at
> > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem is that
the
> > idel
> > > > is
> > > > > a
> > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean by timing
> > range
> > > > is:
> > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30 degrees
> BTDC
> > to
> > > > > TDC,
> > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to move the
> > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that the
> > crankshaft
> > > > and
> > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing marks. Does
> > anybody
> > > > any
> > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > >
> > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If you open
the
> > > valve
> > > > > by
> > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover the
vacuum
> > > nipple
> > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with the engine
> > > running
> > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or stumble/stall.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into the exhaust
> > > manifold
> > > > > as
> > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be shot and
it's
> > > > pumping
> > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is too rich
> > > (misfire),
> > > > > this would
> > > > > cause the glowing.
> > > > >
> > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you removed it?
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Bob Bailin

The thing with most head gaskets is that on many engines, you
*can* put them on upside down (flipped left to right) and the bolt
holes still line up, but the coolant passages don't, so you have
partially blocked passages and an overheated head.

The idle is a bit high (s.b. 750±100) . Does it refuse to idle at
lower speeds?

I couldn't find the online manual for your Excel at
www.hmaservice.com/webtech , the closest I could get is 1988.
Do you have a feedback carb and an O2 sensor? If you do and
your O2 sensor is dead, the ECU might think that it needs to
increase the O2 by leaning out the mixture as much as it can,
but not so much that you'd notice a performance problem at
highway speeds.

Looking at the 1988 manual, your secondary air control valve is
supposed to let air into the exhaust manfold when the engine is
warming up, then it switches to sending air downstream to the
2nd cat under the car. If this valve is burnt out or always open,
air would always be going into the manifold and causing the
red-hot condition. Try plugging the hose from the valve to the
manifold and see if things improve. There should also be some
sort of check valve where the hose meets the manifold to
prevent hot exhaust from going back thru the hose and burning
up the valve.

The cliff is starting to sound much better.

Bob

"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vrgsejs3al6816@corp.supernews.com...
> Yeppers I'm stumped to
> Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire LOL
> The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct. The spark
> plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection system (air
jet
> valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling fine so I'll
> assume for now the carb is ok.
> what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM when the
car
> is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car runs like

> to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then I'll do as
you
> suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket wasn't put
on
> back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If I put the
> head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG passage? I was
> under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake manifold
> through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to feed 2
feet
> of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think that is far
> enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it I put it
> back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow. I was also
> thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would give me a
> better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if nessary.
>
> Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem, then I think
> I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : (
> Bye for now
> Mike
>
>
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot
> > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to
> > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough
> > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is running
> > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway
> > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell
> > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too rich
> > one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be really,
> > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on
> > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you
> > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or
> > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires.
> >
> > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On some
> > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter without a
> > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to
> > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt or
> > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned gas
> > may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the manifold.
> >
> > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild kit and
> have
> > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back together.
> > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed.
> >
> > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than brake
> > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake cleaner
> > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.)
> >
> > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should be
> > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in more
> > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to
1100-1300
> > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you want
> > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve
removed.
> > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb cleaner into
the
> > passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it breaks thru
> > the remaining blockage.
> >
> > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that when you
> > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the correct side
> > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are back where
> > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago where
> > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the engine
> > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hi Bob
> > > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the exhaust
> > manifold,
> > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong part as I
> > thought
> > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as you
> > susggested,
> > > except I didin't decarbonize the head.
> > >
> > >
> > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up with oil
> > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket for it.
When
> > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was able to
> swish
> > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for recycled
> > exhaust.
> > >
> > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a used
> > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about 2 and a
> half
> > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards the
carb,
> > was
> > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray some
> break
> > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole thing
> back
> > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the same
> > problem,
> > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I revved
the
> > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the ERG is
open
> > to
> > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the idle
> > changes
> > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it should.
Any
> > > other suggestions?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is intact),
> > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the head may
> > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. Open the
> > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is idling, and
> > > > see if it stalls (it should).
> > > >
> > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the temps in
the
> > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the
> > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the temp
> > > > of the exhaust manifold.
> > > >
> > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a
screwdriver.
> > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin screwdriver
> > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a
> > > > variable-speed drill.
> > > >
> > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying water
> > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use something like a
> > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb or
you'll
> > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should lower the
> > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to carbon
> > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe, but
> > eventually
> > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a little
> > white
> > > > steam.
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in it and it
> was
> > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust manifold went
> down
> > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the coolant
temp
> > went
> > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I suspect that
> > this
> > > is
> > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the head. Now
why
> is
> > > > this
> > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn crankshaft
> sprocket
> > as
> > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken the
spocket
> > > > off...it
> > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's not
worn.
> > Any
> > > > > other suggestion?
> > > > > Thanks in advance.
> > > > > Mike : )
> > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Hi PPL
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets yellow
hot
> > and
> > > is
> > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only happens when
the
> > car
> > > > is
> > > > > > > driven
> > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I suspected
> was
> > a
> > > > > > clogged
> > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust
monifold.
> > > Ripped
> > > > > out
> > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red hot. The
> car
> > > was
> > > > > > > running rough
> > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the crankshaft and
> > > camshaft
> > > > > > > timing, set the
> > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), the car
> idles
> > > > > better
> > > > > > > now but the
> > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of plugs,
no
> > go.
> > > > Made
> > > > > > > sure the choke was opening,
> > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines and
replaced
> > the
> > > > > ones
> > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head gasket, I
> > > > retorqued
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct (suspected
> that
> > > the
> > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go. Replaced
the
> > > > timing
> > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the crankshaft
and
> > > > camshaft
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back
(counter
> > > > > clockwise)
> > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold doesn't get
> red
> > > hot
> > > > > at
> > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem is that
> the
> > > idel
> > > > > is
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean by
timing
> > > range
> > > > > is:
> > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30 degrees
> > BTDC
> > > to
> > > > > > TDC,
> > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to move the
> > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that the
> > > crankshaft
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing marks. Does
> > > anybody
> > > > > any
> > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If you open
> the
> > > > valve
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover the
> vacuum
> > > > nipple
> > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with the
engine
> > > > running
> > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or stumble/stall.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into the
exhaust
> > > > manifold
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be shot and
> it's
> > > > > pumping
> > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is too rich
> > > > (misfire),
> > > > > > this would
> > > > > > cause the glowing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you removed
it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Mike Wilson

Yep that is true with the head gasket, however for the after market head
gasket that I bought, it will fit on only one way.. The coolant circulates
IE: I have heat inside of the car and there I get oil to the head.It might
be possiable that I might have some how put the head gasket on backwards as
anything is possiable, 99% I didn't. The idle is a tad high, it's because I
have a weak return spring for the Primary Throttle, I've shorthened the
spring (more springy : )) however the idle sometimes is a little high.
Anyhoo I think I'm going to take the carb and intake manifold off today, and
try reaming out the ERG passages in the head and intake manifold. If I don't
find some kind of restriction then I'll take off the head and see where I'm
at from there. Ohh ya one thing to mention, the head isn't as hot as it's
been before, but that might be because it's fall here is Saskatchewan,
burrrrr getting chilly outside.

"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:bpd6a9$8r9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> The thing with most head gaskets is that on many engines, you
> *can* put them on upside down (flipped left to right) and the bolt
> holes still line up, but the coolant passages don't, so you have
> partially blocked passages and an overheated head.
>
> The idle is a bit high (s.b. 750±100) . Does it refuse to idle at
> lower speeds?
>
> I couldn't find the online manual for your Excel at
> www.hmaservice.com/webtech , the closest I could get is 1988.
> Do you have a feedback carb and an O2 sensor? If you do and
> your O2 sensor is dead, the ECU might think that it needs to
> increase the O2 by leaning out the mixture as much as it can,
> but not so much that you'd notice a performance problem at
> highway speeds.
>
> Looking at the 1988 manual, your secondary air control valve is
> supposed to let air into the exhaust manfold when the engine is
> warming up, then it switches to sending air downstream to the
> 2nd cat under the car. If this valve is burnt out or always open,
> air would always be going into the manifold and causing the
> red-hot condition. Try plugging the hose from the valve to the
> manifold and see if things improve. There should also be some
> sort of check valve where the hose meets the manifold to
> prevent hot exhaust from going back thru the hose and burning
> up the valve.
>
> The cliff is starting to sound much better.
>
> Bob
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vrgsejs3al6816@corp.supernews.com...
> > Yeppers I'm stumped to
> > Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire LOL
> > The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct. The
spark
> > plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection system (air
> jet
> > valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling fine so
I'll
> > assume for now the carb is ok.
> > what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM when the
> car
> > is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car runs like
>
> > to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then I'll do as
> you
> > suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket wasn't put
> on
> > back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If I put
the
> > head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG passage? I
was
> > under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake manifold
> > through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to feed 2
> feet
> > of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think that is far
> > enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it I put it
> > back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow. I was
also
> > thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would give me
a
> > better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if nessary.
> >
> > Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem, then I
think
> > I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : (
> > Bye for now
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot
> > > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to
> > > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough
> > > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is running
> > > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway
> > > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell
> > > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too rich
> > > one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be really,
> > > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on
> > > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you
> > > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or
> > > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires.
> > >
> > > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On some
> > > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter without a
> > > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to
> > > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt or
> > > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned gas
> > > may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the manifold.
> > >
> > > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild kit and
> > have
> > > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back together.
> > > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed.
> > >
> > > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than brake
> > > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake cleaner
> > > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.)
> > >
> > > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should be
> > > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in more
> > > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to
> 1100-1300
> > > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you want
> > > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve
> removed.
> > > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb cleaner into
> the
> > > passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it breaks thru
> > > the remaining blockage.
> > >
> > > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that when you
> > > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the correct
side
> > > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are back
where
> > > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago where
> > > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the
engine
> > > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hi Bob
> > > > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the exhaust
> > > manifold,
> > > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong part as I
> > > thought
> > > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as you
> > > susggested,
> > > > except I didin't decarbonize the head.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up with
oil
> > > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket for it.
> When
> > > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was able to
> > swish
> > > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for recycled
> > > exhaust.
> > > >
> > > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a used
> > > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about 2 and
a
> > half
> > > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards the
> carb,
> > > was
> > > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray some
> > break
> > > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole thing
> > back
> > > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the same
> > > problem,
> > > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I revved
> the
> > > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the ERG is
> open
> > > to
> > > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the idle
> > > changes
> > > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it should.
> Any
> > > > other suggestions?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is
intact),
> > > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the head may
> > > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. Open the
> > > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is idling,
and
> > > > > see if it stalls (it should).
> > > > >
> > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the temps in
> the
> > > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the
> > > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the temp
> > > > > of the exhaust manifold.
> > > > >
> > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a
> screwdriver.
> > > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin screwdriver
> > > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a
> > > > > variable-speed drill.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying water
> > > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use something like
a
> > > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb or
> you'll
> > > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should lower
the
> > > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to carbon
> > > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe, but
> > > eventually
> > > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a
little
> > > white
> > > > > steam.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in it and
it
> > was
> > > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust manifold
went
> > down
> > > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the coolant
> temp
> > > went
> > > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I suspect
that
> > > this
> > > > is
> > > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the head. Now
> why
> > is
> > > > > this
> > > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn crankshaft
> > sprocket
> > > as
> > > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken the
> spocket
> > > > > off...it
> > > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's not
> worn.
> > > Any
> > > > > > other suggestion?
> > > > > > Thanks in advance.
> > > > > > Mike : )
> > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Hi PPL
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets yellow
> hot
> > > and
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only happens when
> the
> > > car
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > driven
> > > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I
suspected
> > was
> > > a
> > > > > > > clogged
> > > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust
> monifold.
> > > > Ripped
> > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red hot.
The
> > car
> > > > was
> > > > > > > > running rough
> > > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the crankshaft and
> > > > camshaft
> > > > > > > > timing, set the
> > > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), the car
> > idles
> > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > now but the
> > > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of plugs,
> no
> > > go.
> > > > > Made
> > > > > > > > sure the choke was opening,
> > > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines and
> replaced
> > > the
> > > > > > ones
> > > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head gasket,
I
> > > > > retorqued
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct (suspected
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go. Replaced
> the
> > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the crankshaft
> and
> > > > > camshaft
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back
> (counter
> > > > > > clockwise)
> > > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold doesn't
get
> > red
> > > > hot
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem is
that
> > the
> > > > idel
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean by
> timing
> > > > range
> > > > > > is:
> > > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30
degrees
> > > BTDC
> > > > to
> > > > > > > TDC,
> > > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to move
the
> > > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that the
> > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing marks.
Does
> > > > anybody
> > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If you
open
> > the
> > > > > valve
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover the
> > vacuum
> > > > > nipple
> > > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with the
> engine
> > > > > running
> > > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or
stumble/stall.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into the
> exhaust
> > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be shot
and
> > it's
> > > > > > pumping
> > > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is too
rich
> > > > > (misfire),
> > > > > > > this would
> > > > > > > cause the glowing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you removed
> it?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Mike Wilson

Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out.
I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was saying that I
have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the glowing red
exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft at a half of a
tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the distributor
timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%)
If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem gets worse and
the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark plugs and now
they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are starting to
go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't advancing enough
(when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the crankshaft back
two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing the
distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked the
distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved the engine, the
timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the timing blur on
the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC
Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down the road at
140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've set the timing
to 12% BTDC????
Any suggestions???




"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vrkjsm843rmua1@corp.supernews.com...
> Yep that is true with the head gasket, however for the after market head
> gasket that I bought, it will fit on only one way.. The coolant circulates
> IE: I have heat inside of the car and there I get oil to the head.It might
> be possiable that I might have some how put the head gasket on backwards
as
> anything is possiable, 99% I didn't. The idle is a tad high, it's because
I
> have a weak return spring for the Primary Throttle, I've shorthened the
> spring (more springy : )) however the idle sometimes is a little high.
> Anyhoo I think I'm going to take the carb and intake manifold off today,
and
> try reaming out the ERG passages in the head and intake manifold. If I
don't
> find some kind of restriction then I'll take off the head and see where
I'm
> at from there. Ohh ya one thing to mention, the head isn't as hot as it's
> been before, but that might be because it's fall here is Saskatchewan,
> burrrrr getting chilly outside.
>
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:bpd6a9$8r9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > The thing with most head gaskets is that on many engines, you
> > *can* put them on upside down (flipped left to right) and the bolt
> > holes still line up, but the coolant passages don't, so you have
> > partially blocked passages and an overheated head.
> >
> > The idle is a bit high (s.b. 750±100) . Does it refuse to idle at
> > lower speeds?
> >
> > I couldn't find the online manual for your Excel at
> > www.hmaservice.com/webtech , the closest I could get is 1988.
> > Do you have a feedback carb and an O2 sensor? If you do and
> > your O2 sensor is dead, the ECU might think that it needs to
> > increase the O2 by leaning out the mixture as much as it can,
> > but not so much that you'd notice a performance problem at
> > highway speeds.
> >
> > Looking at the 1988 manual, your secondary air control valve is
> > supposed to let air into the exhaust manfold when the engine is
> > warming up, then it switches to sending air downstream to the
> > 2nd cat under the car. If this valve is burnt out or always open,
> > air would always be going into the manifold and causing the
> > red-hot condition. Try plugging the hose from the valve to the
> > manifold and see if things improve. There should also be some
> > sort of check valve where the hose meets the manifold to
> > prevent hot exhaust from going back thru the hose and burning
> > up the valve.
> >
> > The cliff is starting to sound much better.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vrgsejs3al6816@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Yeppers I'm stumped to
> > > Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire LOL
> > > The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct. The
> spark
> > > plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection system
(air
> > jet
> > > valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling fine so
> I'll
> > > assume for now the carb is ok.
> > > what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM when
the
> > car
> > > is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car runs
like
> >
> > > to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then I'll do
as
> > you
> > > suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket wasn't
put
> > on
> > > back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If I put
> the
> > > head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG passage? I
> was
> > > under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake
manifold
> > > through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to feed
2
> > feet
> > > of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think that is
far
> > > enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it I put
it
> > > back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow. I was
> also
> > > thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would give
me
> a
> > > better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if nessary.
> > >
> > > Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem, then I
> think
> > > I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : (
> > > Bye for now
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot
> > > > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to
> > > > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough
> > > > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is running
> > > > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway
> > > > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell
> > > > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too
rich
> > > > one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be really,
> > > > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on
> > > > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you
> > > > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or
> > > > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires.
> > > >
> > > > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On some
> > > > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter without a
> > > > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to
> > > > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt or
> > > > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned gas
> > > > may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the
manifold.
> > > >
> > > > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild kit
and
> > > have
> > > > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back
together.
> > > > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed.
> > > >
> > > > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than brake
> > > > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake
cleaner
> > > > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.)
> > > >
> > > > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should be
> > > > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in more
> > > > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to
> > 1100-1300
> > > > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you want
> > > > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve
> > removed.
> > > > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb cleaner
into
> > the
> > > > passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it breaks
thru
> > > > the remaining blockage.
> > > >
> > > > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that when
you
> > > > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the correct
> side
> > > > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are back
> where
> > > > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago where
> > > > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the
> engine
> > > > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in.
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Hi Bob
> > > > > I made a mistake wen I was saying that the ERG was on the exhaust
> > > > manifold,
> > > > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong part as
I
> > > > thought
> > > > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as you
> > > > susggested,
> > > > > except I didin't decarbonize the head.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up with
> oil
> > > > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket for
it.
> > When
> > > > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was able
to
> > > swish
> > > > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for recycled
> > > > exhaust.
> > > > >
> > > > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a used
> > > > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about 2
and
> a
> > > half
> > > > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards the
> > carb,
> > > > was
> > > > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray
some
> > > break
> > > > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole
thing
> > > back
> > > > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the same
> > > > problem,
> > > > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I
revved
> > the
> > > > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the ERG
is
> > open
> > > > to
> > > > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the
idle
> > > > changes
> > > > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it
should.
> > Any
> > > > > other suggestions?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is
> intact),
> > > > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the head
may
> > > > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. Open
the
> > > > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is idling,
> and
> > > > > > see if it stalls (it should).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the temps
in
> > the
> > > > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the
> > > > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the temp
> > > > > > of the exhaust manifold.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a
> > screwdriver.
> > > > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin screwdriver
> > > > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a
> > > > > > variable-speed drill.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying
water
> > > > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use something
like
> a
> > > > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb or
> > you'll
> > > > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should lower
> the
> > > > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to
carbon
> > > > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe, but
> > > > eventually
> > > > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a
> little
> > > > white
> > > > > > steam.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in it
and
> it
> > > was
> > > > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust manifold
> went
> > > down
> > > > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the coolant
> > temp
> > > > went
> > > > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I suspect
> that
> > > > this
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the head.
Now
> > why
> > > is
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn crankshaft
> > > sprocket
> > > > as
> > > > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken the
> > spocket
> > > > > > off...it
> > > > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's not
> > worn.
> > > > Any
> > > > > > > other suggestion?
> > > > > > > Thanks in advance.
> > > > > > > Mike : )
> > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Hi PPL
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets
yellow
> > hot
> > > > and
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only happens
when
> > the
> > > > car
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > driven
> > > > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I
> suspected
> > > was
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > clogged
> > > > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust
> > monifold.
> > > > > Ripped
> > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red hot.
> The
> > > car
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > running rough
> > > > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the crankshaft
and
> > > > > camshaft
> > > > > > > > > timing, set the
> > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), the
car
> > > idles
> > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > now but the
> > > > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of
plugs,
> > no
> > > > go.
> > > > > > Made
> > > > > > > > > sure the choke was opening,
> > > > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines and
> > replaced
> > > > the
> > > > > > > ones
> > > > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head
gasket,
> I
> > > > > > retorqued
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct
(suspected
> > > that
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go.
Replaced
> > the
> > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the
crankshaft
> > and
> > > > > > camshaft
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back
> > (counter
> > > > > > > clockwise)
> > > > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold doesn't
> get
> > > red
> > > > > hot
> > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem is
> that
> > > the
> > > > > idel
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean by
> > timing
> > > > > range
> > > > > > > is:
> > > > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30
> degrees
> > > > BTDC
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > TDC,
> > > > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to move

> the
> > > > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that the
> > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing marks.
> Does
> > > > > anybody
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If you
> open
> > > the
> > > > > > valve
> > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover the
> > > vacuum
> > > > > > nipple
> > > > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with the
> > engine
> > > > > > running
> > > > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or
> stumble/stall.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into the
> > exhaust
> > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be shot
> and
> > > it's
> > > > > > > pumping
> > > > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is too
> rich
> > > > > > (misfire),
> > > > > > > > this would
> > > > > > > > cause the glowing.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you
removed
> > it?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Bob Bailin

Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at highway
speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there either.
So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at fairly
low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet your
acceleration really sucks.

And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of unburned
HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold.
You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air hose before
you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops.

The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or
streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the dist
is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated for
it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is open,
and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the highway.
If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would be
knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas.

A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a lot
less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a
manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist from
a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the same
tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly between
the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying to
get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months ago
for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out there right
now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different auctions for
a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible).

I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a
used distributor first.

Bob

"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com...
> Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out.
> I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was saying that I
> have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the glowing red
> exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft at a half of
a
> tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the distributor
> timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%)
> If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem gets worse and
> the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark plugs and
now
> they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are starting to
> go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't advancing
enough
> (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the crankshaft
back
> two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing the
> distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked the
> distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved the engine,
the
> timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the timing blur
on
> the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC
> Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down the road at
> 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've set the
timing
> to 12% BTDC????
> Any suggestions???
>
>
>
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vrkjsm843rmua1@corp.supernews.com...
> > Yep that is true with the head gasket, however for the after market head
> > gasket that I bought, it will fit on only one way.. The coolant
circulates
> > IE: I have heat inside of the car and there I get oil to the head.It
might
> > be possiable that I might have some how put the head gasket on backwards
> as
> > anything is possiable, 99% I didn't. The idle is a tad high, it's
because
> I
> > have a weak return spring for the Primary Throttle, I've shorthened the
> > spring (more springy : )) however the idle sometimes is a little high.
> > Anyhoo I think I'm going to take the carb and intake manifold off today,
> and
> > try reaming out the ERG passages in the head and intake manifold. If I
> don't
> > find some kind of restriction then I'll take off the head and see where
> I'm
> > at from there. Ohh ya one thing to mention, the head isn't as hot as
it's
> > been before, but that might be because it's fall here is Saskatchewan,
> > burrrrr getting chilly outside.
> >
> > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > news:bpd6a9$8r9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > The thing with most head gaskets is that on many engines, you
> > > *can* put them on upside down (flipped left to right) and the bolt
> > > holes still line up, but the coolant passages don't, so you have
> > > partially blocked passages and an overheated head.
> > >
> > > The idle is a bit high (s.b. 750±100) . Does it refuse to idle at
> > > lower speeds?
> > >
> > > I couldn't find the online manual for your Excel at
> > > www.hmaservice.com/webtech , the closest I could get is 1988.
> > > Do you have a feedback carb and an O2 sensor? If you do and
> > > your O2 sensor is dead, the ECU might think that it needs to
> > > increase the O2 by leaning out the mixture as much as it can,
> > > but not so much that you'd notice a performance problem at
> > > highway speeds.
> > >
> > > Looking at the 1988 manual, your secondary air control valve is
> > > supposed to let air into the exhaust manfold when the engine is
> > > warming up, then it switches to sending air downstream to the
> > > 2nd cat under the car. If this valve is burnt out or always open,
> > > air would always be going into the manifold and causing the
> > > red-hot condition. Try plugging the hose from the valve to the
> > > manifold and see if things improve. There should also be some
> > > sort of check valve where the hose meets the manifold to
> > > prevent hot exhaust from going back thru the hose and burning
> > > up the valve.
> > >
> > > The cliff is starting to sound much better.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vrgsejs3al6816@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Yeppers I'm stumped to
> > > > Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire LOL
> > > > The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct. The
> > spark
> > > > plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection system
> (air
> > > jet
> > > > valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling fine
so
> > I'll
> > > > assume for now the carb is ok.
> > > > what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM when
> the
> > > car
> > > > is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car runs
> like
> > >
> > > > to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then I'll do
> as
> > > you
> > > > suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket wasn't
> put
> > > on
> > > > back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If I
put
> > the
> > > > head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG passage?
I
> > was
> > > > under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake
> manifold
> > > > through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to
feed
> 2
> > > feet
> > > > of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think that is
> far
> > > > enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it I
put
> it
> > > > back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow. I
was
> > also
> > > > thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would give
> me
> > a
> > > > better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if
nessary.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem, then I
> > think
> > > > I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : (
> > > > Bye for now
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot
> > > > > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to
> > > > > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough
> > > > > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is
running
> > > > > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway
> > > > > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell
> > > > > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too
> rich
> > > > > one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be
really,
> > > > > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on
> > > > > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you
> > > > > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or
> > > > > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On some
> > > > > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter without
a
> > > > > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to
> > > > > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt or
> > > > > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned gas
> > > > > may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the
> manifold.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild kit
> and
> > > > have
> > > > > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back
> together.
> > > > > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed.
> > > > >
> > > > > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than brake
> > > > > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake
> cleaner
> > > > > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should
be
> > > > > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in more
> > > > > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to
> > > 1100-1300
> > > > > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you
want
> > > > > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve
> > > removed.
> > > > > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb cleaner
> into
> > > the
> > > > > passages that you reamed out, a litle at a time, until it breaks
> thru
> > > > > the remaining blockage.
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that when
> you
> > > > > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the
correct
> > side
> > > > > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are back
> > where
> > > > > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago
where
> > > > > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the
> > engine
> > > > > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Hi Bob
> > > > > > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the
exhaust
> > > > > manifold,
> > > > > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong part
as
> I
> > > > > thought
> > > > > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as you
> > > > > susggested,
> > > > > > except I didin't decarbonize the head.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up
with
> > oil
> > > > > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket for
> it.
> > > When
> > > > > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was able
> to
> > > > swish
> > > > > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for
recycled
> > > > > exhaust.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a
used
> > > > > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about 2
> and
> > a
> > > > half
> > > > > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards
the
> > > carb,
> > > > > was
> > > > > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray
> some
> > > > break
> > > > > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole
> thing
> > > > back
> > > > > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the
same
> > > > > problem,
> > > > > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I
> revved
> > > the
> > > > > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the ERG
> is
> > > open
> > > > > to
> > > > > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the
> idle
> > > > > changes
> > > > > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it
> should.
> > > Any
> > > > > > other suggestions?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is
> > intact),
> > > > > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the head
> may
> > > > > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. Open
> the
> > > > > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is
idling,
> > and
> > > > > > > see if it stalls (it should).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the temps
> in
> > > the
> > > > > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the
> > > > > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the
temp
> > > > > > > of the exhaust manifold.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a
> > > screwdriver.
> > > > > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin
screwdriver
> > > > > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a
> > > > > > > variable-speed drill.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying
> water
> > > > > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use something
> like
> > a
> > > > > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb
or
> > > you'll
> > > > > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should
lower
> > the
> > > > > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to
> carbon
> > > > > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe,
but
> > > > > eventually
> > > > > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a
> > little
> > > > > white
> > > > > > > steam.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in it
> and
> > it
> > > > was
> > > > > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust manifold
> > went
> > > > down
> > > > > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the
coolant
> > > temp
> > > > > went
> > > > > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I
suspect
> > that
> > > > > this
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the head.
> Now
> > > why
> > > > is
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn crankshaft
> > > > sprocket
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken the
> > > spocket
> > > > > > > off...it
> > > > > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's
not
> > > worn.
> > > > > Any
> > > > > > > > other suggestion?
> > > > > > > > Thanks in advance.
> > > > > > > > Mike : )
> > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Hi PPL
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets
> yellow
> > > hot
> > > > > and
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only happens
> when
> > > the
> > > > > car
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > driven
> > > > > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I
> > suspected
> > > > was
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > clogged
> > > > > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust
> > > monifold.
> > > > > > Ripped
> > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red
hot.
> > The
> > > > car
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > running rough
> > > > > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the crankshaft
> and
> > > > > > camshaft
> > > > > > > > > > timing, set the
> > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), the
> car
> > > > idles
> > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > now but the
> > > > > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of
> plugs,
> > > no
> > > > > go.
> > > > > > > Made
> > > > > > > > > > sure the choke was opening,
> > > > > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines and
> > > replaced
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > ones
> > > > > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head
> gasket,
> > I
> > > > > > > retorqued
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct
> (suspected
> > > > that
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go.
> Replaced
> > > the
> > > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the
> crankshaft
> > > and
> > > > > > > camshaft
> > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back
> > > (counter
> > > > > > > > clockwise)
> > > > > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold
doesn't
> > get
> > > > red
> > > > > > hot
> > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem is
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > idel
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean by
> > > timing
> > > > > > range
> > > > > > > > is:
> > > > > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30
> > degrees
> > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > TDC,
> > > > > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to
move
>
> > the
> > > > > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that
the
> > > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing marks.
> > Does
> > > > > > anybody
> > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If
you
> > open
> > > > the
> > > > > > > valve
> > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover
the
> > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > nipple
> > > > > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with
the
> > > engine
> > > > > > > running
> > > > > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or
> > stumble/stall.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into the
> > > exhaust
> > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be
shot
> > and
> > > > it's
> > > > > > > > pumping
> > > > > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is too
> > rich
> > > > > > > (misfire),
> > > > > > > > > this would
> > > > > > > > > cause the glowing.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you
> removed
> > > it?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Mike Wilson

Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl : )
Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill down the road from
us.
Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week. : )

Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to 130Kph
I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never thought to try
that.
I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with the distributor set
to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't trust the Haynes
manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the underside of the hood,
however I do agree that I might have a distributor problem. I'll check that
out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the car was backfiring,
asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so the distributor
could be the problem.

One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to 2,500 RPM and
observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car is stone cold.
The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to 2,500RPM cold
engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the thermo valve has to
be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo valve, engine heats
up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the temp is hot enough
(185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG does open up all
the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says that the ERG valve
shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The ERG opens up fully
when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but not at idle. I'm
thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the wrong times.

Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the highway really
fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back home in over drive,
at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min. Checked the
manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red cherry tomato. LOL
So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle.
I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no go, then check the
distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a thermo valve.
Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG diagram for a 88
and up, I'll have to go by that diagram.

Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting path to follow now.
I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At least I don't
feel like driving the car off of a cliff now!



"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at highway
> speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there either.
> So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at fairly
> low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet your
> acceleration really sucks. >
> And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of unburned
> HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold.
> You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air hose before
> you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops.
>
> The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or
> streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the dist
> is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated for
> it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is open,
> and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the highway.
> If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would be
> knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas.
>
> A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a lot
> less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a
> manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist from
> a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the same
> tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly between
> the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying to
> get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months ago
> for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out there right
> now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different auctions for
> a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible).
>
> I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a
> used distributor first.
>
> Bob
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out.
> > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was saying that
I
> > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the glowing red
> > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft at a half
of
> a
> > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the distributor
> > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%)
> > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem gets worse
and
> > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark plugs and
> now
> > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are starting
to
> > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't advancing
> enough
> > (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the crankshaft
> back
> > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing the
> > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked the
> > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved the engine,
> the
> > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the timing
blur
> on
> > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC
> > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down the road
at
> > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've set the
> timing
> > to 12% BTDC????
> > Any suggestions???
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vrkjsm843rmua1@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Yep that is true with the head gasket, however for the after market
head
> > > gasket that I bought, it will fit on only one way.. The coolant
> circulates
> > > IE: I have heat inside of the car and there I get oil to the head.It
> might
> > > be possiable that I might have some how put the head gasket on
backwards
> > as
> > > anything is possiable, 99% I didn't. The idle is a tad high, it's
> because
> > I
> > > have a weak return spring for the Primary Throttle, I've shorthened
the
> > > spring (more springy : )) however the idle sometimes is a little high.
> > > Anyhoo I think I'm going to take the carb and intake manifold off
today,
> > and
> > > try reaming out the ERG passages in the head and intake manifold. If I
> > don't
> > > find some kind of restriction then I'll take off the head and see
where
> > I'm
> > > at from there. Ohh ya one thing to mention, the head isn't as hot as
> it's
> > > been before, but that might be because it's fall here is Saskatchewan,
> > > burrrrr getting chilly outside.
> > >
> > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bpd6a9$8r9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > The thing with most head gaskets is that on many engines, you
> > > > *can* put them on upside down (flipped left to right) and the bolt
> > > > holes still line up, but the coolant passages don't, so you have
> > > > partially blocked passages and an overheated head.
> > > >
> > > > The idle is a bit high (s.b. 750±100) . Does it refuse to idle at
> > > > lower speeds?
> > > >
> > > > I couldn't find the online manual for your Excel at
> > > > www.hmaservice.com/webtech , the closest I could get is 1988.
> > > > Do you have a feedback carb and an O2 sensor? If you do and
> > > > your O2 sensor is dead, the ECU might think that it needs to
> > > > increase the O2 by leaning out the mixture as much as it can,
> > > > but not so much that you'd notice a performance problem at
> > > > highway speeds.
> > > >
> > > > Looking at the 1988 manual, your secondary air control valve is
> > > > supposed to let air into the exhaust manfold when the engine is
> > > > warming up, then it switches to sending air downstream to the
> > > > 2nd cat under the car. If this valve is burnt out or always open,
> > > > air would always be going into the manifold and causing the
> > > > red-hot condition. Try plugging the hose from the valve to the
> > > > manifold and see if things improve. There should also be some
> > > > sort of check valve where the hose meets the manifold to
> > > > prevent hot exhaust from going back thru the hose and burning
> > > > up the valve.
> > > >
> > > > The cliff is starting to sound much better.
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vrgsejs3al6816@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Yeppers I'm stumped to
> > > > > Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire LOL
> > > > > The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct.
The
> > > spark
> > > > > plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection
system
> > (air
> > > > jet
> > > > > valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling fine
> so
> > > I'll
> > > > > assume for now the carb is ok.
> > > > > what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM
when
> > the
> > > > car
> > > > > is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car runs
> > like
> > > >
> > > > > to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then I'll
do
> > as
> > > > you
> > > > > suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket
wasn't
> > put
> > > > on
> > > > > back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If I
> put
> > > the
> > > > > head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG
passage?
> I
> > > was
> > > > > under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake
> > manifold
> > > > > through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to
> feed
> > 2
> > > > feet
> > > > > of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think that
is
> > far
> > > > > enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it I
> put
> > it
> > > > > back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow. I
> was
> > > also
> > > > > thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would
give
> > me
> > > a
> > > > > better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if
> nessary.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem, then
I
> > > think
> > > > > I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : (
> > > > > Bye for now
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot
> > > > > > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to
> > > > > > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough
> > > > > > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is
> running
> > > > > > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway
> > > > > > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell
> > > > > > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too
> > rich
> > > > > > one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be
> really,
> > > > > > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on
> > > > > > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you
> > > > > > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or
> > > > > > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On
some
> > > > > > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter
without
> a
> > > > > > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to
> > > > > > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt
or
> > > > > > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned
gas
> > > > > > may just go out the ack pipe instead of afterburning in the
> > manifold.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild
kit
> > and
> > > > > have
> > > > > > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back
> > together.
> > > > > > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than
brake
> > > > > > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake
> > cleaner
> > > > > > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should
> be
> > > > > > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in
more
> > > > > > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to
> > > > 1100-1300
> > > > > > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you
> want
> > > > > > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve
> > > > removed.
> > > > > > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb
cleaner
> > into
> > > > the
> > > > > > passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it
breaks
> > thru
> > > > > > the remaining blockage.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that
when
> > you
> > > > > > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the
> correct
> > > side
> > > > > > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are
back
> > > where
> > > > > > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago
> where
> > > > > > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the
> > > engine
> > > > > > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Hi Bob
> > > > > > > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the
> exhaust
> > > > > > manifold,
> > > > > > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong
part
> as
> > I
> > > > > > thought
> > > > > > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as
you
> > > > > > susggested,
> > > > > > > except I didin't decarbonize the head.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up
> with
> > > oil
> > > > > > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket
for
> > it.
> > > > When
> > > > > > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was
able
> > to
> > > > > swish
> > > > > > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for
> recycled
> > > > > > exhaust.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a
> used
> > > > > > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about
2
> > and
> > > a
> > > > > half
> > > > > > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards
> the
> > > > carb,
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray
> > some
> > > > > break
> > > > > > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole
> > thing
> > > > > back
> > > > > > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the
> same
> > > > > > problem,
> > > > > > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I
> > revved
> > > > the
> > > > > > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the
ERG
> > is
> > > > open
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the
> > idle
> > > > > > changes
> > > > > > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it
> > should.
> > > > Any
> > > > > > > other suggestions?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is
> > > intact),
> > > > > > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the
head
> > may
> > > > > > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years.
Open
> > the
> > > > > > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is
> idling,
> > > and
> > > > > > > > see if it stalls (it should).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the
temps
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the
> > > > > > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the
> temp
> > > > > > > > of the exhaust manifold.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a
> > > > screwdriver.
> > > > > > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin
> screwdriver
> > > > > > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a
> > > > > > > > variable-speed drill.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying
> > water
> > > > > > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use
something
> > like
> > > a
> > > > > > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb
> or
> > > > you'll
> > > > > > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should
> lower
> > > the
> > > > > > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to
> > carbon
> > > > > > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe,
> but
> > > > > > eventually
> > > > > > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a
> > > little
> > > > > > white
> > > > > > > > steam.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in
it
> > and
> > > it
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust
manifold
> > > went
> > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the
> coolant
> > > > temp
> > > > > > went
> > > > > > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I
> suspect
> > > that
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the
head.
> > Now
> > > > why
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn
crankshaft
> > > > > sprocket
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken
the
> > > > spocket
> > > > > > > > off...it
> > > > > > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's
> not
> > > > worn.
> > > > > > Any
> > > > > > > > > other suggestion?
> > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance.
> > > > > > > > > Mike : )
> > > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Hi PPL
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets
> > yellow
> > > > hot
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only
happens
> > when
> > > > the
> > > > > > car
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > driven
> > > > > > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I
> > > suspected
> > > > > was
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > clogged
> > > > > > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust
> > > > monifold.
> > > > > > > Ripped
> > > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red
> hot.
> > > The
> > > > > car
> > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > running rough
> > > > > > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the
crankshaft
> > and
> > > > > > > camshaft
> > > > > > > > > > > timing, set the
> > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs),
the
> > car
> > > > > idles
> > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > now but the
> > > > > > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of
> > plugs,
> > > > no
> > > > > > go.
> > > > > > > > Made
> > > > > > > > > > > sure the choke was opening,
> > > > > > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines
and
> > > > replaced
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > ones
> > > > > > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head
> > gasket,
> > > I
> > > > > > > > retorqued
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct
> > (suspected
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go.
> > Replaced
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the
> > crankshaft
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > camshaft
> > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back
> > > > (counter
> > > > > > > > > clockwise)
> > > > > > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold
> doesn't
> > > get
> > > > > red
> > > > > > > hot
> > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem
is
> > > that
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > idel
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean
by
> > > > timing
> > > > > > > range
> > > > > > > > > is:
> > > > > > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30
> > > degrees
> > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > TDC,
> > > > > > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to
> move
> >
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that
> the
> > > > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing
marks.
> > > Does
> > > > > > > anybody
> > > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If
> you
> > > open
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > valve
> > > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover
> the
> > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > nipple
> > > > > > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with
> the
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > > running
> > > > > > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or
> > > stumble/stall.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into
the
> > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be
> shot
> > > and
> > > > > it's
> > > > > > > > > pumping
> > > > > > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is
too
> > > rich
> > > > > > > > (misfire),
> > > > > > > > > > this would
> > > > > > > > > > cause the glowing.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you
> > removed
> > > > it?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Bob Bailin

Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out the
1988 Excel service manual online at www.hmaservice.com/webtech .
Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under
"Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then read
about the distributor on page 30.

I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for this dist
is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm. This
probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at 2500 rpms
(there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not enough).
Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops.

When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the engine
much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5° is
not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing light.

Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when cold.
It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor performance
until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR being
open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum, which is
highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully closed or
fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like when the car
is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly.

I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the mechanical
advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then reconnect
the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than before.
If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you open
the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which may be
the same defective thermal switch that's also running the EGR.
Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to that
switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably has
vacuum routing diagrams too.

Good luck.

Bob

"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com...
> Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl : )
> Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill down the road from
> us.
> Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week. : )
>
> Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to 130Kph
> I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never thought to try
> that.
> I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with the distributor
set
> to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't trust the Haynes
> manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the underside of the hood,
> however I do agree that I might have a distributor problem. I'll check
that
> out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the car was
backfiring,
> asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so the distributor
> could be the problem.
>
> One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to 2,500 RPM and
> observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car is stone cold.
> The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to 2,500RPM cold
> engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the thermo valve has to
> be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo valve, engine heats
> up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the temp is hot
enough
> (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG does open up
all
> the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says that the ERG
valve
> shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The ERG opens up
fully
> when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but not at idle.
I'm
> thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the wrong times.
>
> Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the highway really
> fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back home in over
drive,
> at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min. Checked the
> manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red cherry tomato.
LOL
> So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle.
> I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no go, then check
the
> distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a thermo valve.
> Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG diagram for a
88
> and up, I'll have to go by that diagram.
>
> Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting path to follow now.
> I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At least I don't
> feel like driving the car off of a cliff now!
>
>
>
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at highway
> > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there either.
> > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at fairly
> > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet your
> > acceleration really sucks. >
> > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of unburned
> > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold.
> > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air hose before
> > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops.
> >
> > The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or
> > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the dist
> > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated for
> > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is open,
> > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the highway.
> > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would be
> > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas.
> >
> > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a lot
> > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a
> > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist from
> > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the same
> > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly between
> > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying to
> > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months ago
> > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out there right
> > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different auctions for
> > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible).
> >
> > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a
> > used distributor first.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out.
> > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was saying
that
> I
> > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the glowing red
> > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft at a half
> of
> > a
> > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the distributor
> > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%)
> > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem gets worse
> and
> > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark plugs
and
> > now
> > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are
starting
> to
> > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't advancing
> > enough
> > > (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the
crankshaft
> > back
> > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing the
> > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked the
> > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved the
engine,
> > the
> > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the timing
> blur
> > on
> > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC
> > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down the
road
> at
> > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've set the
> > timing
> > > to 12% BTDC????
> > > Any suggestions???
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vrkjsm843rmua1@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Yep that is true with the head gasket, however for the after market
> head
> > > > gasket that I bought, it will fit on only one way.. The coolant
> > circulates
> > > > IE: I have heat inside of the car and there I get oil to the head.It
> > might
> > > > be possiable that I might have some how put the head gasket on
> backwards
> > > as
> > > > anything is possiable, 99% I didn't. The idle is a tad high, it's
> > because
> > > I
> > > > have a weak return spring for the Primary Throttle, I've shorthened
> the
> > > > spring (more springy : )) however the idle sometimes is a little
high.
> > > > Anyhoo I think I'm going to take the carb and intake manifold off
> today,
> > > and
> > > > try reaming out the ERG passages in the head and intake manifold. If
I
> > > don't
> > > > find some kind of restriction then I'll take off the head and see
> where
> > > I'm
> > > > at from there. Ohh ya one thing to mention, the head isn't as hot as
> > it's
> > > > been before, but that might be because it's fall here is
Saskatchewan,
> > > > burrrrr getting chilly outside.
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bpd6a9$8r9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > The thing with most head gaskets is that on many engines, you
> > > > > *can* put them on upside down (flipped left to right) and the bolt
> > > > > holes still line up, but the coolant passages don't, so you have
> > > > > partially blocked passages and an overheated head.
> > > > >
> > > > > The idle is a bit high (s.b. 750±100) . Does it refuse to idle at
> > > > > lower speeds?
> > > > >
> > > > > I couldn't find the online manual for your Excel at
> > > > > www.hmaservice.com/webtech , the closest I could get is 1988.
> > > > > Do you have a feedback carb and an O2 sensor? If you do and
> > > > > your O2 sensor is dead, the ECU might think that it needs to
> > > > > increase the O2 by leaning out the mixture as much as it can,
> > > > > but not so much that you'd notice a performance problem at
> > > > > highway speeds.
> > > > >
> > > > > Looking at the 1988 manual, your secondary air control valve is
> > > > > supposed to let air into the exhaust manfold when the engine is
> > > > > warming up, then it switches to sending air downstream to the
> > > > > 2nd cat under the car. If this valve is burnt out or always open,
> > > > > air would always be going into the manifold and causing the
> > > > > red-hot condition. Try plugging the hose from the valve to the
> > > > > manifold and see if things improve. There should also be some
> > > > > sort of check valve where the hose meets the manifold to
> > > > > prevent hot exhaust from going back thru the hose and burning
> > > > > up the valve.
> > > > >
> > > > > The cliff is starting to sound much better.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vrgsejs3al6816@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Yeppers I'm stumped to
> > > > > > Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire
LOL
> > > > > > The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct.
> The
> > > > spark
> > > > > > plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection
> system
> > > (air
> > > > > jet
> > > > > > valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling
fine
> > so
> > > > I'll
> > > > > > assume for now the carb is ok.
> > > > > > what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM
> when
> > > the
> > > > > car
> > > > > > is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car
runs
> > > like
> > > > >
> > > > > > to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then
I'll
> do
> > > as
> > > > > you
> > > > > > suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket
> wasn't
> > > put
> > > > > on
> > > > > > back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If
I
> > put
> > > > the
> > > > > > head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG
> passage?
> > I
> > > > was
> > > > > > under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake
> > > manifold
> > > > > > through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to
> > feed
> > > 2
> > > > > feet
> > > > > > of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think
that
> is
> > > far
> > > > > > enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it
I
> > put
> > > it
> > > > > > back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow.
I
> > was
> > > > also
> > > > > > thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would
> give
> > > me
> > > > a
> > > > > > better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if
> > nessary.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem,
then
> I
> > > > think
> > > > > > I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : (
> > > > > > Bye for now
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot
> > > > > > > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to
> > > > > > > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough
> > > > > > > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is
> > running
> > > > > > > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway
> > > > > > > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to
tell
> > > > > > > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's
too
> > > rich
> > > > > > > one or more wil be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be
> > really,
> > > > > > > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits
on
> > > > > > > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When
you
> > > > > > > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or
> > > > > > > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On
> some
> > > > > > > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter
> without
> > a
> > > > > > > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve
to
> > > > > > > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt
> or
> > > > > > > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned
> gas
> > > > > > > may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the
> > > manifold.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild
> kit
> > > and
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back
> > > together.
> > > > > > > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than
> brake
> > > > > > > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake
> > > cleaner
> > > > > > > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It
should
> > be
> > > > > > > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in
> more
> > > > > > > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up
to
> > > > > 1100-1300
> > > > > > > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If
you
> > want
> > > > > > > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR
valve
> > > > > removed.
> > > > > > > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb
> cleaner
> > > into
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it
> breaks
> > > thru
> > > > > > > the remaining blockage.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that
> when
> > > you
> > > > > > > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the
> > correct
> > > > side
> > > > > > > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are
> back
> > > > where
> > > > > > > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago
> > where
> > > > > > > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and
the
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Hi Bob
> > > > > > > > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the
> > exhaust
> > > > > > > manifold,
> > > > > > > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong
> part
> > as
> > > I
> > > > > > > thought
> > > > > > > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as
> you
> > > > > > > susggested,
> > > > > > > > except I didin't decarbonize the head.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up
> > with
> > > > oil
> > > > > > > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket
> for
> > > it.
> > > > > When
> > > > > > > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was
> able
> > > to
> > > > > > swish
> > > > > > > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for
> > recycled
> > > > > > > exhaust.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with
a
> > used
> > > > > > > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed
about
> 2
> > > and
> > > > a
> > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes
towards
> > the
> > > > > carb,
> > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and
spray
> > > some
> > > > > > break
> > > > > > > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the
whole
> > > thing
> > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have
the
> > same
> > > > > > > problem,
> > > > > > > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp
I
> > > revved
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the
> ERG
> > > is
> > > > > open
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger,
the
> > > idle
> > > > > > > changes
> > > > > > > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it
> > > should.
> > > > > Any
> > > > > > > > other suggestions?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm
is
> > > > intact),
> > > > > > > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the
> head
> > > may
> > > > > > > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years.
> Open
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is
> > idling,
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > see if it stalls (it should).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the
> temps
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce
the
> > > > > > > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop
the
> > temp
> > > > > > > > > of the exhaust manifold.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a
> > > > > screwdriver.
> > > > > > > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin
> > screwdriver
> > > > > > > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a
> > > > > > > > > variable-speed drill.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by
spraying
> > > water
> > > > > > > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use
> something
> > > like
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the
carb
> > or
> > > > > you'll
> > > > > > > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should
> > lower
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to
> > > carbon
> > > > > > > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the
tailpipe,
> > but
> > > > > > > eventually
> > > > > > > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with
a
> > > > little
> > > > > > > white
> > > > > > > > > steam.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in
> it
> > > and
> > > > it
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust
> manifold
> > > > went
> > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the
> > coolant
> > > > > temp
> > > > > > > went
> > > > > > > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I
> > suspect
> > > > that
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the
> head.
> > > Now
> > > > > why
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn
> crankshaft
> > > > > > sprocket
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken
> the
> > > > > spocket
> > > > > > > > > off...it
> > > > > > > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess
it's
> > not
> > > > > worn.
> > > > > > > Any
> > > > > > > > > > other suggestion?
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance.
> > > > > > > > > > Mike : )
> > > > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hi PPL
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets
> > > yellow
> > > > > hot
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only
> happens
> > > when
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > car
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > driven
> > > > > > > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I
> > > > suspected
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > clogged
> > > > > > > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the
exhaust
> > > > > monifold.
> > > > > > > > Ripped
> > > > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only
red
> > hot.
> > > > The
> > > > > > car
> > > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > > running rough
> > > > > > > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the
> crankshaft
> > > and
> > > > > > > > camshaft
> > > > > > > > > > > > timing, set the
> > > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs),
> the
> > > car
> > > > > > idles
> > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > now but the
> > > > > > > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair
of
> > > plugs,
> > > > > no
> > > > > > > go.
> > > > > > > > > Made
> > > > > > > > > > > > sure the choke was opening,
> > > > > > > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines
> and
> > > > > replaced
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > ones
> > > > > > > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head
> > > gasket,
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > > retorqued
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct
> > > (suspected
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go.
> > > Replaced
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the
> > > crankshaft
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > camshaft
> > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft
back
> > > > > (counter
> > > > > > > > > > clockwise)
> > > > > > > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold
> > doesn't
> > > > get
> > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > hot
> > > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only
problem
> is
> > > > that
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > idel
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I
mean
> by
> > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > range
> > > > > > > > > > is:
> > > > > > > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is
30
> > > > degrees
> > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > TDC,
> > > > > > > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have
to
> > move
> > >
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says
that
> > the
> > > > > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing
> marks.
> > > > Does
> > > > > > > > anybody
> > > > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve.
If
> > you
> > > > open
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > valve
> > > > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you
cover
> > the
> > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > nipple
> > > > > > > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand
with
> > the
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > running
> > > > > > > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or
> > > > stumble/stall.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into
> the
> > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be
> > shot
> > > > and
> > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > > > > pumping
> > > > > > > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is
> too
> > > > rich
> > > > > > > > > (misfire),
> > > > > > > > > > > this would
> > > > > > > > > > > cause the glowing.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you
> > > removed
> > > > > it?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Mike Wilson

Update:
Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck, they moved but
barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and greased them up. The
weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem. The breaker
plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased it, adjusted the
igniter (.030 ")
I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance module as it doesn't
seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the bottom nipple,
sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the line to build up
pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2 or 3 mm. The top
nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely working better
now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there is no back
firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached, revved the engine,
observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the distributor the
timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then advancing BTDC 5
to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a drive down the
road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the exhaust manifold
is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph, the exhaust
manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions?

"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out the
> 1988 Excel service manual online at www.hmaservice.com/webtech .
> Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under
> "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then read
> about the distributor on page 30.
>
> I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for this dist
> is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm. This
> probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at 2500 rpms
> (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not enough).
> Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops.
>
> When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the engine
> much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5° is
> not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing light.
>
> Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when cold.
> It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor performance
> until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR being
> open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum, which is
> highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully closed or
> fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like when the car
> is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly.
>
> I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the mechanical
> advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then reconnect
> the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than before.
> If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you open
> the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which may be
> the same defective thermal switch that's also running the EGR.
> Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to that
> switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably has
> vacuum routing diagrams too.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Bob
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com...
> > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl : )
> > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill down the road
from
> > us.
> > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week. : )
> >
> > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to 130Kph
> > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never thought to try
> > that.
> > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with the distributor
> set
> > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't trust the Haynes
> > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the underside of the
hood,
> > however I do agree that I might have a distributor problem. I'll check
> that
> > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the car was
> backfiring,
> > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so the
distributor
> > could be the problem.
> >
> > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to 2,500 RPM and
> > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car is stone
cold.
> > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to 2,500RPM cold
> > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the thermo valve has
to
> > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo valve, engine
heats
> > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the temp is hot
> enough
> > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG does open up
> all
> > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says that the ERG
> valve
> > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The ERG opens up
> fully
> > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but not at idle.
> I'm
> > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the wrong times.
> >
> > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the highway really
> > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back home in over
> drive,
> > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min. Checked the
> > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red cherry tomato.
> LOL
> > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle.
> > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no go, then check
> the
> > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a thermo valve.
> > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG diagram for a
> 88
> > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram.
> >
> > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting path to follow
now.
> > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At least I don't
> > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now!
> >
> >
> >
> > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at highway
> > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there either.
> > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at fairly
> > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet your
> > > acceleration really sucks. >
> > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of unburned
> > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold.
> > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air hose before
> > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops.
> > >
> > > The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or
> > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the dist
> > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated for
> > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is open,
> > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the highway.
> > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would be
> > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas.
> > >
> > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a lot
> > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a
> > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist from
> > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the same
> > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly between
> > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying to
> > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months ago
> > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out there right
> > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different auctions for
> > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible).
> > >
> > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a
> > > used distributor first.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out.
> > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was saying
> that
> > I
> > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the glowing
red
> > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft at a
half
> > of
> > > a
> > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the
distributor
> > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%)
> > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem gets
worse
> > and
> > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark plugs
> and
> > > now
> > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are
> starting
> > to
> > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't
advancing
> > > enough
> > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the
> crankshaft
> > > back
> > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing the
> > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked the
> > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved the
> engine,
> > > the
> > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the timing
> > blur
> > > on
> > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC
> > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down the
> road
> > at
> > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've set
the
> > > timing
> > > > to 12% BTDC????
> > > > Any suggestions???
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vrkjsm843rmua1@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Yep that is true with the head gasket, however for the after
market
> > head
> > > > > gasket that I bought, it will fit on only one way.. The coolant
> > > circulates
> > > > > IE: I have heat inside of the car and there I get oil to the
head.It
> > > might
> > > > > be possiable that I might have some how put the head gasket on
> > backwards
> > > > as
> > > > > anything is possiable, 99% I didn't. The idle is a tad high, it's
> > > because
> > > > I
> > > > > have a weak return spring for the Primary Throttle, I've
shorthened
> > the
> > > > > spring (more springy : )) however the idle sometimes is a little
> high.
> > > > > Anyhoo I think I'm going to take the carb and intake manifold off
> > today,
> > > > and
> > > > > try reaming out the ERG passages in the head and intake manifold.
If
> I
> > > > don't
> > > > > find some kind of restriction then I'll take off the head and see
> > where
> > > > I'm
> > > > > at from there. Ohh ya one thing to mention, the head isn't as hot
as
> > > it's
> > > > > been before, but that might be because it's fall here is
> Saskatchewan,
> > > > > burrrrr getting chilly outside.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bpd6a9$8r9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > The thing with most head gaskets is that on many engines, you
> > > > > > *can* put them on upside down (flipped left to right) and the
bolt
> > > > > > holes still line up, but the coolant passages don't, so you have
> > > > > > partially blocked passages and an overheated head.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The idle is a bit high (s.b. 750±100) . Does it refuse to idle
at
> > > > > > lower speeds?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I couldn't find the online manual for your Excel at
> > > > > > www.hmaservice.com/webtech , the closest I could get is 1988.
> > > > > > Do you have a feedback carb and an O2 sensor? If you do and
> > > > > > your O2 sensor is dead, the ECU might think that it needs to
> > > > > > increase the O2 by leaning out the mixture as much as it can,
> > > > > > but not so much that you'd notice a performance problem at
> > > > > > highway speeds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Looking at the 1988 manual, your secondary air control valve is
> > > > > > supposed to let air into the exhaust manfold when the engine is
> > > > > > warming up, then it switches to sending air downstream to the
> > > > > > 2nd cat under the car. If this valve is burnt out or always
open,
> > > > > > air would always be going into the manifold and causing the
> > > > > > red-hot condition. Try plugging the hose from the valve to the
> > > > > > manifold and see if things improve. There should also be some
> > > > > > sort of check valve where the hose meets the manifold to
> > > > > > prevent hot exhaust from going back thru the hose and burning
> > > > > > up the valve.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The cliff is starting to sound much better.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vrgsejs3al6816@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Yeppers I'm stumped to
> > > > > > > Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire
> LOL
> > > > > > > The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be
correct.
> > The
> > > > > spark
> > > > > > > plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection
> > system
> > > > (air
> > > > > > jet
> > > > > > > valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling
> fine
> > > so
> > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > assume for now the carb is ok.
> > > > > > > what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM
> > when
> > > > the
> > > > > > car
> > > > > > > is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car
> runs
> > > > like
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then
> I'll
> > do
> > > > as
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket
> > wasn't
> > > > put
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes.
If
> I
> > > put
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG
> > passage?
> > > I
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake
> > > > manifold
> > > > > > > through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able
to
> > > feed
> > > > 2
> > > > > > feet
> > > > > > > of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think
> that
> > is
> > > > far
> > > > > > > enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that
it
> I
> > > put
> > > > it
> > > > > > > back in the correct place, but I'll double check that
tomorrow.
> I
> > > was
> > > > > also
> > > > > > > thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that
would
> > give
> > > > me
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if
> > > nessary.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem,
> then
> > I
> > > > > think
> > > > > > > I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : (
> > > > > > > Bye for now
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundi), I've seen red-hot
> > > > > > > > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due
to
> > > > > > > > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough
> > > > > > > > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is
> > > running
> > > > > > > > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway
> > > > > > > > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to
> tell
> > > > > > > > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's
> too
> > > > rich
> > > > > > > > one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be
> > > really,
> > > > > > > > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan
deposits
> on
> > > > > > > > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When
> you
> > > > > > > > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or
> > > > > > > > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On
> > some
> > > > > > > > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter
> > without
> > > a
> > > > > > > > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve
> to
> > > > > > > > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the
belt
> > or
> > > > > > > > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the
unburned
> > gas
> > > > > > > > may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the
> > > > manifold.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb
rebuild
> > kit
> > > > and
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back
> > > > together.
> > > > > > > > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than
> > brake
> > > > > > > > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint,
brake
> > > > cleaner
> > > > > > > > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It
> should
> > > be
> > > > > > > > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in
> > more
> > > > > > > > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up
> to
> > > > > > 1100-1300
> > > > > > > > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If
> you
> > > want
> > > > > > > > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR
> valve
> > > > > > removed.
> > > > > > > > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb
> > cleaner
> > > > into
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it
> > breaks
> > > > thru
> > > > > > > > the remaining blockage.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming
that
> > when
> > > > you
> > > > > > > > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the
> > > correct
> > > > > side
> > > > > > > > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses
are
> > back
> > > > > where
> > > > > > > > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years
ago
> > > where
> > > > > > > > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and
> the
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked
in.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Hi Bob
> > > > > > > > > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the
> > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > manifold,
> > > > > > > > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong
> > part
> > > as
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > thought
> > > > > > > > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did
as
> > you
> > > > > > > > susggested,
> > > > > > > > > except I didin't decarbonize the head.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed
up
> > > with
> > > > > oil
> > > > > > > > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new
gasket
> > for
> > > > it.
> > > > > > When
> > > > > > > > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and
was
> > able
> > > > to
> > > > > > > swish
> > > > > > > > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for
> > > recycled
> > > > > > > > exhaust.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold)
with
> a
> > > used
> > > > > > > > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed
> about
> > 2
> > > > and
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes
> towards
> > > the
> > > > > > carb,
> > > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and
> spray
> > > > some
> > > > > > > break
> > > > > > > > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the
> whole
> > > > thing
> > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have
> the
> > > same
> > > > > > > > problem,
> > > > > > > > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating
temp
> I
> > > > revved
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of
the
> > ERG
> > > > is
> > > > > > open
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger,
> the
> > > > idle
> > > > > > > > changes
> > > > > > > > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as
it
> > > > should.
> > > > > > Any
> > > > > > > > > other suggestions?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm
> is
> > > > > intact),
> > > > > > > > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the
> > head
> > > > may
> > > > > > > > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17
years.
> > Open
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is
> > > idling,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > see if it stalls (it should).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the
> > temps
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce
> the
> > > > > > > > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop
> the
> > > temp
> > > > > > > > > > of the exhaust manifold.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with
a
> > > > > > screwdriver.
> > > > > > > > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin
> > > screwdriver
> > > > > > > > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a
> > > > > > > > > > variable-speed drill.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by
> spraying
> > > > water
> > > > > > > > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use
> > something
> > > > like
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the
> carb
> > > or
> > > > > > you'll
> > > > > > > > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This
should
> > > lower
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due
to
> > > > carbon
> > > > > > > > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the
> tailpipe,
> > > but
> > > > > > > > eventually
> > > > > > > > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you
with
> a
> > > > > little
> > > > > > > > white
> > > > > > > > > > steam.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat
in
> > it
> > > > and
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust
> > manifold
> > > > > went
> > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the
> > > coolant
> > > > > > temp
> > > > > > > > went
> > > > > > > > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I
> > > suspect
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the
> > head.
> > > > Now
> > > > > > why
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn
> > crankshaft
> > > > > > > sprocket
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already
taken
> > the
> > > > > > spocket
> > > > > > > > > > off...it
> > > > > > > > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess
> it's
> > > not
> > > > > > worn.
> > > > > > > > Any
> > > > > > > > > > > other suggestion?
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance.
> > > > > > > > > > > Mike : )
> > > > > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi PPL
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold
gets
> > > > yellow
> > > > > > hot
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only
> > happens
> > > > when
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > car
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > driven
> > > > > > > > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing
I
> > > > > suspected
> > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > clogged
> > > > > > > > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the
> exhaust
> > > > > > monifold.
> > > > > > > > > Ripped
> > > > > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only
> red
> > > hot.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > car
> > > > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > running rough
> > > > > > > > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the
> > crankshaft
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > camshaft
> > > > > > > > > > > > > timing, set the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per
specs),
> > the
> > > > car
> > > > > > > idles
> > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > now but the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair
> of
> > > > plugs,
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > go.
> > > > > > > > > > Made
> > > > > > > > > > > > > sure the choke was opening,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume
lines
> > and
> > > > > > replaced
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > ones
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the
head
> > > > gasket,
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > retorqued
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct
> > > > (suspected
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no
go.
> > > > Replaced
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the
> > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > camshaft
> > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft
> back
> > > > > > (counter
> > > > > > > > > > > clockwise)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold
> > > doesn't
> > > > > get
> > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > > hot
> > > > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only
> problem
> > is
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > idel
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I
> mean
> > by
> > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > range
> > > > > > > > > > > is:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing
is
> 30
> > > > > degrees
> > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > TDC,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have
> to
> > > move
> > > >
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says
> that
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing
> > marks.
> > > > > Does
> > > > > > > > > anybody
> > > > > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve.
> If
> > > you
> > > > > open
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > valve
> > > > > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you
> cover
> > > the
> > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > nipple
> > > > > > > > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand
> with
> > > the
> > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > running
> > > > > > > > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or
> > > > > stumble/stall.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection
into
> > the
> > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may
be
> > > shot
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > > > > > pumping
> > > > > > > > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust
is
> > too
> > > > > rich
> > > > > > > > > > (misfire),
> > > > > > > > > > > > this would
> > > > > > > > > > > > cause the glowing.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when
you
> > > > removed
> > > > > > it?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Bob Bailin

My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the distributor
at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The vacuum
advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an
unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There are
2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for manual.
Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot less.

After writing the above, I went to http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.

Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002) explaining how
feedback
carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams.
For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal vacuum
advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine
is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your description which
one of the two is broken, but you can:

When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at either of
the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev up the
engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the other.
This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore the
cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is
cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one that
doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability
problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's shot,
you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this
is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to see
if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.

Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor next. If
you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all these
years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an analog!)
to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car is
fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer
thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm not sure
how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2 sensors
are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of penetrating
oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust manifold
without breaking it off.

And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the EGR
passage in the intake manifold.

But do try fixing up the distributor first.

Bob

"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> Update:
> Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck, they moved
but
> barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and greased them up.
The
> weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem. The breaker
> plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased it, adjusted
the
> igniter (.030 ")
> I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance module as it
doesn't
> seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the bottom nipple,
> sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the line to build
up
> pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2 or 3 mm. The
top
> nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely working
better
> now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there is no back
> firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached, revved the
engine,
> observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the distributor the
> timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then advancing BTDC 5
> to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a drive down the
> road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the exhaust
manifold
> is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph, the exhaust
> manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions?
>
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out the
> > 1988 Excel service manual online at www.hmaservice.com/webtech .
> > Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under
> > "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then read
> > about the distributor on page 30.
> >
> > I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for this dist
> > is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm. This
> > probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at 2500 rpms
> > (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not enough).
> > Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops.
> >
> > When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the engine
> > much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5° is
> > not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing light.
> >
> > Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when cold.
> > It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor performance
> > until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR being
> > open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum, which is
> > highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully closed or
> > fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like when the car
> > is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly.
> >
> > I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the mechanical
> > advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then reconnect
> > the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than before.
> > If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you open
> > the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which may be
> > the same defective thermal switch that's also running the EGR.
> > Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to that
> > switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably has
> > vacuum routing diagrams too.
> >
> > Good luck.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl : )
> > > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill down the road
> from
> > > us.
> > > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week. : )
> > >
> > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to 130Kph
> > > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never thought to
try
> > > that.
> > > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with the
distributor
> > set
> > > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't trust the Haynes
> > > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the underside of the
> hood,
> > > however I do agree that I might have a distributor problem. I'll check
> > that
> > > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the car was
> > backfiring,
> > > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so the
> distributor
> > > could be the problem.
> > >
> > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to 2,500 RPM
and
> > > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car is stone
> cold.
> > > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to 2,500RPM
cold
> > > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the thermo valve
has
> to
> > > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo valve, engine
> heats
> > > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the temp is hot
> > enough
> > > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG does open
up
> > all
> > > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says that the ERG
> > valve
> > > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The ERG opens up
> > fully
> > > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but not at
idle.
> > I'm
> > > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the wrong times.
> > >
> > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the highway
really
> > > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back home in over
> > drive,
> > > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min. Checked the
> > > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red cherry
tomato.
> > LOL
> > > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle.
> > > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no go, then
check
> > the
> > > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a thermo valve.
> > > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG diagram for
a
> > 88
> > > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram.
> > >
> > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting path to follow
> now.
> > > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At least I
don't
> > > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at highway
> > > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there either.
> > > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at fairly
> > > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet your
> > > > acceleration really sucks. >
> > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of unburned
> > > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold.
> > > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air hose
before
> > > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops.
> > > >
> > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or
> > > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the dist
> > > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated for
> > > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is open,
> > > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the highway.
> > > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would be
> > > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas.
> > > >
> > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a lot
> > > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a
> > > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist from
> > > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the same
> > > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly between
> > > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying to
> > > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months ago
> > > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out there right
> > > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different auctions for
> > > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible).
> > > >
> > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a
> > > > used distributor first.
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out.
> > > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was saying
> > that
> > > I
> > > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the glowing
> red
> > > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft at a
> half
> > > of
> > > > a
> > > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the
> distributor
> > > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%)
> > > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem gets
> worse
> > > and
> > > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark
plugs
> > and
> > > > now
> > > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are
> > starting
> > > to
> > > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't
> advancing
> > > > enough
> > > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the
> > crankshaft
> > > > back
> > > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing the
> > > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked the
> > > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved the
> > engine,
> > > > the
> > > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the
timing
> > > blur
> > > > on
> > > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC
> > > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down the
> > road
> > > at
> > > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've set
> the
> > > > timing
> > > > > to 12% BTDC????

Mike Wilson

Ok we'll do that
I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the top chamber that
doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker, but the last
time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the engines, just my
luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the vacuum lines (sorry I
forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86 model doesn't
have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part for the car. Again
the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the highway.

Mike



"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the distributor
> at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The vacuum
> advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an
> unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There are
> 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for manual.
> Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot less.
>
> After writing the above, I went to http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
>
> Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002) explaining how
> feedback
> carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams.
> For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal vacuum
> advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine
> is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your description which
> one of the two is broken, but you can:
>
> When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at either of
> the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev up the
> engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the other.
> This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore the
> cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is
> cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one that
> doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability
> problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's shot,
> you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this
> is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to see
> if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
>
> Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor next. If
> you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all these
> years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an analog!)
> to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car is
> fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer
> thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm not sure
> how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2 sensors
> are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of penetrating
> oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust manifold
> without breaking it off.
>
> And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the EGR
> passage in the intake manifold.
>
> But do try fixing up the distributor first.
>
> Bob
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > Update:
> > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck, they moved
> but
> > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and greased them up.
> The
> > weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem. The breaker
> > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased it, adjusted
> the
> > igniter (.030 ")
> > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance module as it
> doesn't
> > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the bottom nipple,
> > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the line to build
> up
> > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2 or 3 mm. The
> top
> > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely working
> better
> > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there is no back
> > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached, revved the
> engine,
> > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the distributor
the
> > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then advancing BTDC
5
> > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a drive down the
> > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the exhaust
> manifold
> > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph, the exhaust
> > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions?
> >
> > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out the
> > > 1988 Excel service manual online at www.hmaservice.com/webtech .
> > > Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under
> > > "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then read
> > > about the distributor on page 30.
> > >
> > > I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for this dist
> > > is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm. This
> > > probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at 2500 rpms
> > > (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not enough).
> > > Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops.
> > >
> > > When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the engine
> > > much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5° is
> > > not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing light.
> > >
> > > Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when cold.
> > > It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor performance
> > > until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR being
> > > open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum, which is
> > > highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully closed or
> > > fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like when the car
> > > is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly.
> > >
> > > I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the mechanical
> > > advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then reconnect
> > > the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than before.
> > > If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you open
> > > the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which may be
> > > the same defective thermal switch that's also running the EGR.
> > > Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to that
> > > switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably has
> > > vacuum routing diagrams too.
> > >
> > > Good luck.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl : )
> > > > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill down the road
> > from
> > > > us.
> > > > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week. : )
> > > >
> > > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to 130Kph
> > > > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never thought to
> try
> > > > that.
> > > > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with the
> distributor
> > > set
> > > > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't trust the
Haynes
> > > > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the underside of the
> > hood,
> > > > however I do agree that I might have a distributor problem. I'll
check
> > > that
> > > > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the car was
> > > backfiring,
> > > > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so the
> > distributor
> > > > could be the problem.
> > > >
> > > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to 2,500 RPM
> and
> > > > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car is stone
> > cold.
> > > > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to 2,500RPM
> cold
> > > > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the thermo valve
> has
> > to
> > > > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo valve, engine
> > heats
> > > > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the temp is hot
> > > enough
> > > > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG does open
> up
> > > all
> > > > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says that the
ERG
> > > valve
> > > > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The ERG opens
up
> > > fully
> > > > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but not at
> idle.
> > > I'm
> > > > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the wrong times.
> > > >
> > > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the highway
> really
> > > > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back home in over
> > > drive,
> > > > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min. Checked the
> > > > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red cherry
> tomato.
> > > LOL
> > > > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle.
> > > > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no go, then
> check
> > > the
> > > > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a thermo valve.
> > > > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG diagram
for
> a
> > > 88
> > > > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting path to
follow
> > now.
> > > > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At least I
> don't
> > > > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at highway
> > > > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there
either.
> > > > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at fairly
> > > > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet your
> > > > > acceleration really sucks. >
> > > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of unburned
> > > > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold.
> > > > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air hose
> before
> > > > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops.
> > > > >
> > > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or
> > > > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the dist
> > > > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated for
> > > > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is open,
> > > > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the
highway.
> > > > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would be
> > > > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas.
> > > > >
> > > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a lot
> > > > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a
> > > > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist from
> > > > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the same
> > > > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly between
> > > > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying to
> > > > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months ago
> > > > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out there
right
> > > > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different auctions
for
> > > > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible).
> > > > >
> > > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a
> > > > > used distributor first.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out.
> > > > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was
saying
> > > that
> > > > I
> > > > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the
glowing
> > red
> > > > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft at
a
> > half
> > > > of
> > > > > a
> > > > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the
> > distributor
> > > > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%)
> > > > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem gets
> > worse
> > > > and
> > > > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark
> plugs
> > > and
> > > > > now
> > > > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are
> > > starting
> > > > to
> > > > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't
> > advancing
> > > > > enough
> > > > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the
> > > crankshaft
> > > > > back
> > > > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing
the
> > > > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked
the
> > > > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved the
> > > engine,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the
> timing
> > > > blur
> > > > > on
> > > > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC
> > > > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down
the
> > > road
> > > > at
> > > > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've
set
> > the
> > > > > timing
> > > > > > to 12% BTDC????
>
>

Bob Bailin

Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot Exhaust
Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near the top.
But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the cause. The
most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt or
leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.

You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering when
you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance was
set properly when you put things back together? If it's too tight, the
valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not seat for
long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4
valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the engine
over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but
not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser than too
tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent shape,
none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this mistake
on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles on the
highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few hours
later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had set the
cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up in
the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road before
setting the hot clearance.

Bob

"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> Ok we'll do that
> I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the top chamber
that
> doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker, but the last
> time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the engines, just
my
> luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the vacuum lines (sorry
I
> forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86 model doesn't
> have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part for the car.
Again
> the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the highway.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the distributor
> > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The vacuum
> > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an
> > unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There are
> > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for manual.
> > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot less.
> >
> > After writing the above, I went to http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> >
> > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002) explaining how
> > feedback
> > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams.
> > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal vacuum
> > advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine
> > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your description which
> > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> >
> > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at either of
> > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev up the
> > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the other.
> > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore the
> > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is
> > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one that
> > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability
> > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's shot,
> > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this
> > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to see
> > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> >
> > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor next. If
> > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all these
> > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an analog!)
> > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car is
> > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer
> > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm not sure
> > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2 sensors
> > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of penetrating
> > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust manifold
> > without breaking it off.
> >
> > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the EGR
> > passage in the intake manifold.
> >
> > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Update:
> > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck, they
moved
> > but
> > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and greased them
up.
> > The
> > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem. The
breaker
> > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased it,
adjusted
> > the
> > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance module as it
> > doesn't
> > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the bottom
nipple,
> > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the line to
build
> > up
> > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2 or 3 mm.
The
> > top
> > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely working
> > better
> > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there is no back
> > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached, revved the
> > engine,
> > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the distributor
> the
> > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then advancing
BTDC
> 5
> > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a drive down
the
> > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the exhaust
> > manifold
> > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph, the exhaust
> > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions?
> > >
> > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out the
> > > > 1988 Excel service manual online at www.hmaservice.com/webtech .
> > > > Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under
> > > > "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then read
> > > > about the distributor on page 30.
> > > >
> > > > I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for this dist
> > > > is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm. This
> > > > probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at 2500 rpms
> > > > (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not enough).
> > > > Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops.
> > > >
> > > > When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the engine
> > > > much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5° is
> > > > not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing light.
> > > >
> > > > Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when cold.
> > > > It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor
performance
> > > > until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR being
> > > > open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum, which is
> > > > highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully closed or
> > > > fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like when the
car
> > > > is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly.
> > > >
> > > > I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the mechanical
> > > > advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then reconnect
> > > > the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than before.
> > > > If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you open
> > > > the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which may be
> > > > the same defective thermal switch that's also running the EGR.
> > > > Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to that
> > > > switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably has
> > > > vacuum routing diagrams too.
> > > >
> > > > Good luck.
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl : )
> > > > > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill down the
road
> > > from
> > > > > us.
> > > > > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week. : )
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to 130Kph
> > > > > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never thought
to
> > try
> > > > > that.
> > > > > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with the
> > distributor
> > > > set
> > > > > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't trust the
> Haynes
> > > > > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the underside of
the
> > > hood,
> > > > > however I do agree that I might have a distributor problem. I'll
> check
> > > > that
> > > > > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the car was
> > > > backfiring,
> > > > > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so the
> > > distributor
> > > > > could be the problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to 2,500
RPM
> > and
> > > > > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car is
stone
> > > cold.
> > > > > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to 2,500RPM
> > cold
> > > > > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the thermo
valve
> > has
> > > to
> > > > > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo valve,
engine
> > > heats
> > > > > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the temp is
hot
> > > > enough
> > > > > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG does
open
> > up
> > > > all
> > > > > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says that the
> ERG
> > > > valve
> > > > > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The ERG
opens
> up
> > > > fully
> > > > > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but not at
> > idle.
> > > > I'm
> > > > > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the wrong
times.
> > > > >
> > > > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the highway
> > really
> > > > > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back home in
over
> > > > drive,
> > > > > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min. Checked the
> > > > > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red cherry
> > tomato.
> > > > LOL
> > > > > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle.
> > > > > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no go, then
> > check
> > > > the
> > > > > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a thermo
valve.
> > > > > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG diagram
> for
> > a
> > > > 88
> > > > > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting path to
> follow
> > > now.
> > > > > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At least I
> > don't
> > > > > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at highway
> > > > > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there
> either.
> > > > > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at fairly
> > > > > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet your
> > > > > > acceleration really sucks. >
> > > > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of unburned
> > > > > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold.
> > > > > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air hose
> > before
> > > > > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or
> > > > > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the
dist
> > > > > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated for
> > > > > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is open,
> > > > > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the
> highway.
> > > > > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would be
> > > > > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a lot
> > > > > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a
> > > > > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist from
> > > > > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the
same
> > > > > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly between
> > > > > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying to
> > > > > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months ago
> > > > > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out there
> right
> > > > > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different auctions
> for
> > > > > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a
> > > > > > used distributor first.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out.
> > > > > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was
> saying
> > > > that
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the
> glowing
> > > red
> > > > > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft
at
> a
> > > half
> > > > > of
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the
> > > distributor
> > > > > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%)
> > > > > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem
gets
> > > worse
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark
> > plugs
> > > > and
> > > > > > now
> > > > > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are
> > > > starting
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't
> > > advancing
> > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the
> > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > back
> > > > > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing
> the
> > > > > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked
> the
> > > > > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved
the
> > > > engine,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the
> > timing
> > > > > blur
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC
> > > > > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down
> the
> > > > road
> > > > > at
> > > > > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've
> set
> > > the
> > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > to 12% BTDC????
> >
> >
>
>