Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
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Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Hey Bob
Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold isn't red
at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my previous post. I
guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine speed is
higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving faster,
let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is under
load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives fine, good
acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to do with the
fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission does
require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum canister maybe
leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive without any
problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
Mike
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife to her
> prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested that I call
on
> Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never got
around
> to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you about it.
>
> I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the exhaust
> manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true, except for
some
> very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You can't see
this
> very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY I forgot
to
> mention this yesterday.
>
> What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I don't get
> anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll back off
the
> foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed out of the
> engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory you have,
> because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that, pressing
> down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating, thus I have
to
> back her off a bit.
> One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as fast, as
> possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100 plus from
> time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
>
> I'll get back to you tomorrow
>
> Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> "Never pet a burning dog!"
>
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > Here's a test for you:
> >
> > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective dist
> > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns,
> > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > remains constant).
> >
> > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear?
> > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph,
> > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing, your
> > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply
> > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> >
> > Try it and let me know.
> >
> > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the floor)
> > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're accelerating)?
> > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of those
> > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT) mentioned
> > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT for
> > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum dropping
> > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture results in
> > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually
> > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever (you're
> > supposed to downshift instead).
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various reason
> why
> > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was timing. But
> what's
> > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen when I
> drive
> > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective vacuum
> > advance
> > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a local
> > wrecker
> > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was burnt or
leaky
> > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the solution is
> > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the valves,
> > there
> > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that the
valves
> > were
> > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs are a tan
> > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set them
loose,
> > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I determined
> that
> > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I just added
> > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the engine being
> > cold.
> > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't have any
luck
> > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
clearances,
> > if
> > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage so I can
> > tear
> > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running better
now?
> > LOL
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot Exhaust
> > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near the top.
> > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the cause. The
> > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt or
> > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > >
> > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering when
> > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance was
> > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too tight,
the
> > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not seat
for
> > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4
> > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the
engine
> > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but
> > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser than
too
> > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent shape,
> > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this mistake
> > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles on the
> > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few hours
> > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had set the
> > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up in
> > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road before
> > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the top
> chamber
> > > > that
> > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker, but
the
> > last
> > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the
engines,
> > > just
> > > > my
> > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the vacuum
lines
> > > (sorry
> > > > I
> > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86 model
> > > doesn't
> > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part for the
> car.
> > > > Again
> > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the
highway.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the
> > > distributor
> > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The vacuum
> > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an
> > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There are
> > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for
> manual.
> > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot less.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002) explaining
> how
> > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams.
> > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal vacuum
> > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine
> > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your description
> > which
> > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at either of
> > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev up
the
> > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the other.
> > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore the
> > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is
> > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one that
> > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability
> > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's shot,
> > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this
> > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to see
> > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor next. If
> > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all these
> > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an
> analog!)
> > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car is
> > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer
> > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm not
> > sure
> > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2 sensors
> > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of penetrating
> > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust manifold
> > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the EGR
> > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck,
> they
> > > > moved
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and greased
> > them
> > > > up.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem.
The
> > > > breaker
> > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased
it,
> > > > adjusted
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance module
> as
> > it
> > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the
bottom
> > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the
line
> to
> > > > build
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2 or
3
> > mm.
> > > > The
> > > > > > top
> > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely
> > working
> > > > > > better
> > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there is
> no
> > > back
> > > > > > > firing. With the engine wrmed up, timing light attached,
revved
> > the
> > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the
> > > distributor
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then
> > advancing
> > > > BTDC
> > > > > 5
> > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a
drive
> > down
> > > > the
> > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the
> exhaust
> > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph, the
> > > exhaust
> > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out
the
> > > > > > > > 1988 Excel service manual online at
www.hmaservice.com/webtech
> .
> > > > > > > > Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under
> > > > > > > > "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then
read
> > > > > > > > about the distributor on page 30.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for this
> > dist
> > > > > > > > is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm.
This
> > > > > > > > probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at
2500
> > > rpms
> > > > > > > > (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not
enough).
> > > > > > > > Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the
> engine
> > > > > > > > much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5°
is
> > > > > > > > not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing
> light.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when
> cold.
> > > > > > > > It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor
> > > > performance
> > > > > > > > until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR
being
> > > > > > > > open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum, which
> is
> > > > > > > > highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully
> > closed
> > > or
> > > > > > > > fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like
when
> > the
> > > > car
> > > > > > > > is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the
> mechanical
> > > > > > > > advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then
> reconnect
> > > > > > > > the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than
before.
> > > > > > > > If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you open
> > > > > > > > the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which
may
> > be
> > > > > > > > the same defective thermal switch that's also running the
EGR.
> > > > > > > > Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to
that
> > > > > > > > switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably
has
> > > > > > > > vacuum routing diagrams too.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Good luck.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl
> : )
> > > > > > > > > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill
down
> > the
> > > > road
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > us.
> > > > > > > > > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week.
> > > : )
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to
> > 130Kph
> > > > > > > > > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never
> > thought
> > > > to
> > > > > > try
> > > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with
the
> > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't
trust
> > the
> > > > > Haynes
> > > > > > > > > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the
underside
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > hood,
> > > > > > > > > however I do agree that I might have a distributor
problem.
> > I'll
> > > > > check
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the
car
> > was
> > > > > > > > backfiring,
> > > > > > > > > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so
> the
> > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > could be the problem.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to
> > 2,500
> > > > RPM
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car
> is
> > > > stone
> > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to
> > > 2,500RPM
> > > > > > cold
> > > > > > > > > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the
> thermo
> > > > valve
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo
> valve,
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > heats
> > > > > > > > > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the
> temp
> > is
> > > > hot
> > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG
> > does
> > > > open
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says
> that
> > > the
> > > > > ERG
> > > > > > > > valve
> > > > > > > > > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The
> ERG
> > > > opens
> > > > > up
> > > > > > > > fully
> > > > > > > > > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but
> not
> > > at
> > > > > > idle.
> > > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the
> wrong
> > > > times.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the
> > > highway
> > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back
home
> > in
> > > > over
> > > > > > > > drive,
> > > > > > > > > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min.
Checked
> > the
> > > > > > > > > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red
> > cherry
> > > > > > tomato.
> > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle.
> > > > > > > > > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no
go,
> > > then
> > > > > > check
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a
thermo
> > > > valve.
> > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG
> > > diagram
> > > > > for
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > 88
> > > > > > > > > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting
path
> to
> > > > > follow
> > > > > > > now.
> > > > > > > > > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At
> > least
> > > I
> > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at
> > > highway
> > > > > > > > > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out
> there
> > > > > either.
> > > > > > > > > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at
> > fairly
> > > > > > > > > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet
> > your
> > > > > > > > > > acceleration really sucks. >
> > > > > > > > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of
> > > unburned
> > > > > > > > > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary
air
> > > hose
> > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably
broken
> or
> > > > > > > > > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so
> the
> > > > dist
> > > > > > > > > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've
compensated
> > for
> > > > > > > > > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle
is
> > > open,
> > > > > > > > > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on
> the
> > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine
> would
> > > be
> > > > > > > > > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai,
or
> a
> > > lot
> > > > > > > > > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430
for
> a
> > > > > > > > > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any
dist
> > from
> > > > > > > > > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has
> the
> > > > same
> > > > > > > > > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly
> > > between
> > > > > > > > > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay
trying
> > to
> > > > > > > > > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few
> months
> > > ago
> > > > > > > > > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out
> > there
> > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different
> > > auctions
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a
> > > > > > > > > > used distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out.
> > > > > > > > > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember
I
> > was
> > > > > saying
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate
> the
> > > > > glowing
> > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the
> > crankshaft
> > > > at
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and
> the
> > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%)
> > > > > > > > > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the
> problem
> > > > gets
> > > > > > > worse
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked
the
> > > spark
> > > > > > plugs
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > now
> > > > > > > > > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC,
> plugs
> > > are
> > > > > > > > starting
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing
> > isn't
> > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either
shifting
> > the
> > > > > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth,
> > > advancing
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I
> > > checked
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and
> > revved
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark
> IE:
> > > the
> > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > blur
> > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20%
BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I
> wipp
> > > down
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > road
> > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's
because
> > > I've
> > > > > set
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC????
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold isn't red
at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my previous post. I
guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine speed is
higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving faster,
let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is under
load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives fine, good
acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to do with the
fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission does
require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum canister maybe
leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive without any
problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
Mike
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife to her
> prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested that I call
on
> Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never got
around
> to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you about it.
>
> I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the exhaust
> manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true, except for
some
> very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You can't see
this
> very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY I forgot
to
> mention this yesterday.
>
> What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I don't get
> anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll back off
the
> foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed out of the
> engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory you have,
> because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that, pressing
> down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating, thus I have
to
> back her off a bit.
> One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as fast, as
> possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100 plus from
> time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
>
> I'll get back to you tomorrow
>
> Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> "Never pet a burning dog!"
>
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > Here's a test for you:
> >
> > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective dist
> > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns,
> > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > remains constant).
> >
> > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear?
> > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph,
> > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing, your
> > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply
> > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> >
> > Try it and let me know.
> >
> > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the floor)
> > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're accelerating)?
> > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of those
> > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT) mentioned
> > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT for
> > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum dropping
> > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture results in
> > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually
> > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever (you're
> > supposed to downshift instead).
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various reason
> why
> > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was timing. But
> what's
> > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen when I
> drive
> > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective vacuum
> > advance
> > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a local
> > wrecker
> > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was burnt or
leaky
> > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the solution is
> > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the valves,
> > there
> > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that the
valves
> > were
> > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs are a tan
> > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set them
loose,
> > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I determined
> that
> > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I just added
> > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the engine being
> > cold.
> > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't have any
luck
> > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
clearances,
> > if
> > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage so I can
> > tear
> > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running better
now?
> > LOL
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot Exhaust
> > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near the top.
> > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the cause. The
> > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt or
> > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > >
> > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering when
> > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance was
> > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too tight,
the
> > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not seat
for
> > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4
> > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the
engine
> > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but
> > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser than
too
> > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent shape,
> > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this mistake
> > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles on the
> > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few hours
> > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had set the
> > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up in
> > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road before
> > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the top
> chamber
> > > > that
> > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker, but
the
> > last
> > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the
engines,
> > > just
> > > > my
> > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the vacuum
lines
> > > (sorry
> > > > I
> > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86 model
> > > doesn't
> > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part for the
> car.
> > > > Again
> > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the
highway.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the
> > > distributor
> > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The vacuum
> > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an
> > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There are
> > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for
> manual.
> > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot less.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002) explaining
> how
> > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams.
> > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal vacuum
> > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine
> > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your description
> > which
> > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at either of
> > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev up
the
> > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the other.
> > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore the
> > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is
> > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one that
> > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability
> > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's shot,
> > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this
> > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to see
> > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor next. If
> > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all these
> > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an
> analog!)
> > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car is
> > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer
> > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm not
> > sure
> > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2 sensors
> > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of penetrating
> > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust manifold
> > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the EGR
> > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck,
> they
> > > > moved
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and greased
> > them
> > > > up.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem.
The
> > > > breaker
> > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased
it,
> > > > adjusted
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance module
> as
> > it
> > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the
bottom
> > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the
line
> to
> > > > build
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2 or
3
> > mm.
> > > > The
> > > > > > top
> > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely
> > working
> > > > > > better
> > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there is
> no
> > > back
> > > > > > > firing. With the engine wrmed up, timing light attached,
revved
> > the
> > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the
> > > distributor
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then
> > advancing
> > > > BTDC
> > > > > 5
> > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a
drive
> > down
> > > > the
> > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the
> exhaust
> > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph, the
> > > exhaust
> > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out
the
> > > > > > > > 1988 Excel service manual online at
www.hmaservice.com/webtech
> .
> > > > > > > > Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under
> > > > > > > > "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then
read
> > > > > > > > about the distributor on page 30.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for this
> > dist
> > > > > > > > is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm.
This
> > > > > > > > probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at
2500
> > > rpms
> > > > > > > > (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not
enough).
> > > > > > > > Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the
> engine
> > > > > > > > much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5°
is
> > > > > > > > not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing
> light.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when
> cold.
> > > > > > > > It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor
> > > > performance
> > > > > > > > until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR
being
> > > > > > > > open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum, which
> is
> > > > > > > > highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully
> > closed
> > > or
> > > > > > > > fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like
when
> > the
> > > > car
> > > > > > > > is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the
> mechanical
> > > > > > > > advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then
> reconnect
> > > > > > > > the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than
before.
> > > > > > > > If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you open
> > > > > > > > the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which
may
> > be
> > > > > > > > the same defective thermal switch that's also running the
EGR.
> > > > > > > > Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to
that
> > > > > > > > switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably
has
> > > > > > > > vacuum routing diagrams too.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Good luck.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl
> : )
> > > > > > > > > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill
down
> > the
> > > > road
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > us.
> > > > > > > > > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week.
> > > : )
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to
> > 130Kph
> > > > > > > > > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never
> > thought
> > > > to
> > > > > > try
> > > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with
the
> > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't
trust
> > the
> > > > > Haynes
> > > > > > > > > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the
underside
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > hood,
> > > > > > > > > however I do agree that I might have a distributor
problem.
> > I'll
> > > > > check
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the
car
> > was
> > > > > > > > backfiring,
> > > > > > > > > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so
> the
> > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > could be the problem.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to
> > 2,500
> > > > RPM
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car
> is
> > > > stone
> > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to
> > > 2,500RPM
> > > > > > cold
> > > > > > > > > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the
> thermo
> > > > valve
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo
> valve,
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > heats
> > > > > > > > > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the
> temp
> > is
> > > > hot
> > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG
> > does
> > > > open
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says
> that
> > > the
> > > > > ERG
> > > > > > > > valve
> > > > > > > > > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The
> ERG
> > > > opens
> > > > > up
> > > > > > > > fully
> > > > > > > > > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but
> not
> > > at
> > > > > > idle.
> > > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the
> wrong
> > > > times.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the
> > > highway
> > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back
home
> > in
> > > > over
> > > > > > > > drive,
> > > > > > > > > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min.
Checked
> > the
> > > > > > > > > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red
> > cherry
> > > > > > tomato.
> > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle.
> > > > > > > > > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no
go,
> > > then
> > > > > > check
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a
thermo
> > > > valve.
> > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG
> > > diagram
> > > > > for
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > 88
> > > > > > > > > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting
path
> to
> > > > > follow
> > > > > > > now.
> > > > > > > > > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At
> > least
> > > I
> > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at
> > > highway
> > > > > > > > > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out
> there
> > > > > either.
> > > > > > > > > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at
> > fairly
> > > > > > > > > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet
> > your
> > > > > > > > > > acceleration really sucks. >
> > > > > > > > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of
> > > unburned
> > > > > > > > > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary
air
> > > hose
> > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably
broken
> or
> > > > > > > > > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so
> the
> > > > dist
> > > > > > > > > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've
compensated
> > for
> > > > > > > > > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle
is
> > > open,
> > > > > > > > > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on
> the
> > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine
> would
> > > be
> > > > > > > > > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai,
or
> a
> > > lot
> > > > > > > > > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430
for
> a
> > > > > > > > > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any
dist
> > from
> > > > > > > > > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has
> the
> > > > same
> > > > > > > > > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly
> > > between
> > > > > > > > > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay
trying
> > to
> > > > > > > > > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few
> months
> > > ago
> > > > > > > > > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out
> > there
> > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different
> > > auctions
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a
> > > > > > > > > > used distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out.
> > > > > > > > > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember
I
> > was
> > > > > saying
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate
> the
> > > > > glowing
> > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the
> > crankshaft
> > > > at
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and
> the
> > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%)
> > > > > > > > > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the
> problem
> > > > gets
> > > > > > > worse
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked
the
> > > spark
> > > > > > plugs
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > now
> > > > > > > > > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC,
> plugs
> > > are
> > > > > > > > starting
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing
> > isn't
> > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either
shifting
> > the
> > > > > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth,
> > > advancing
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I
> > > checked
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and
> > revved
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark
> IE:
> > > the
> > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > blur
> > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20%
BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I
> wipp
> > > down
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > road
> > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's
because
> > > I've
> > > > > set
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC????
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Update:
Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a look at
the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red, seems
like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> Hey Bob
> Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold isn't
red
> at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my previous post.
I
> guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine speed is
> higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving faster,
> let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
>
> What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is under
> load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives fine,
good
> acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to do with
the
> fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission does
> require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum canister maybe
> leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive without any
> problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
>
> Mike
>
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife to her
> > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested that I
call
> on
> > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never got
> around
> > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you about
it.
> >
> > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the exhaust
> > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true, except for
> some
> > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You can't see
> this
> > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY I
forgot
> to
> > mention this yesterday.
> >
> > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I don't
get
> > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll back off
> the
> > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed out of the
> > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory you
have,
> > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that, pressing
> > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating, thus I
have
> to
> > back her off a bit.
> > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as fast, as
> > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100 plus from
> > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> >
> > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> >
> > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> >
> > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > Here's a test for you:
> > >
> > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective dist
> > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns,
> > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > > remains constant).
> > >
> > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear?
> > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph,
> > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing, your
> > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply
> > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > >
> > > Try it and let me know.
> > >
> > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the floor)
> > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're accelerating)?
> > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of those
> > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT) mentioned
> > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT for
> > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum dropping
> > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture results in
> > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually
> > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever (you're
> > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various
reason
> > why
> > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was timing. But
> > what's
> > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen when I
> > drive
> > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective vacuum
> > > advance
> > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a local
> > > wrecker
> > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was burnt or
> leaky
> > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the solution is
> > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the
valves,
> > > there
> > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that the
> valves
> > > were
> > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs are a
tan
> > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set them
> loose,
> > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
determined
> > that
> > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I just
added
> > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the engine
being
> > > cold.
> > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't have any
> luck
> > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
> clearances,
> > > if
> > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage so I
can
> > > tear
> > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running better
> now?
> > > LOL
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot
Exhaust
> > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near the
top.
> > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the cause.
The
> > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt or
> > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > >
> > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering when
> > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance was
> > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too tight,
> the
> > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not seat
> for
> > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4
> > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the
> engine
> > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but
> > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser than
> too
> > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent shape,
> > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this
mistake
> > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles on
the
> > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few
hours
> > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had set
the
> > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up in
> > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road before
> > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the top
> > chamber
> > > > > that
> > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker, but
> the
> > > last
> > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the
> engines,
> > > > just
> > > > > my
> > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the vacuum
> lines
> > > > (sorry
> > > > > I
> > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86
model
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part for
the
> > car.
> > > > > Again
> > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the
> highway.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the
> > > > distributor
> > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The vacuum
> > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an
> > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There
are
> > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for
> > manual.
> > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot
less.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002)
explaining
> > how
> > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams.
> > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal vacuum
> > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine
> > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
description
> > > which
> > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at either
of
> > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev up
> the
> > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the other.
> > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore
the
> > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is
> > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one that
> > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability
> > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's shot,
> > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this
> > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to
see
> > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor next.
If
> > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all
these
> > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an
> > analog!)
> > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car is
> > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer
> > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm
not
> > > sure
> > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2
sensors
> > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
penetrating
> > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust
manifold
> > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the EGR
> > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck,
> > they
> > > > > moved
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and
greased
> > > them
> > > > > up.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem.
> The
> > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased
> it,
> > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance
module
> > as
> > > it
> > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the
> bottom
> > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the
> line
> > to
> > > > > build
> > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2
or
> 3
> > > mm.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely
> > > working
> > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there
is
> > no
>> > > back
> > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached,
> revved
> > > the
> > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the
> > > > distributor
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then
> > > advancing
> > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a
> drive
> > > down
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the
> > exhaust
> > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph,
the
> > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out
> the
> > > > > > > > > 1988 Excel service manual online at
> www.hmaservice.com/webtech
> > .
> > > > > > > > > Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under
> > > > > > > > > "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then
> read
> > > > > > > > > about the distributor on page 30.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for
this
> > > dist
> > > > > > > > > is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm.
> This
> > > > > > > > > probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at
> 2500
> > > > rpms
> > > > > > > > > (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not
> enough).
> > > > > > > > > Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the
> > engine
> > > > > > > > > much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5°
> is
> > > > > > > > > not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing
> > light.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when
> > cold.
> > > > > > > > > It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor
> > > > > performance
> > > > > > > > > until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR
> being
> > > > > > > > > open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum,
which
> > is
> > > > > > > > > highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully
> > > closed
> > > > or
> > > > > > > > > fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like
> when
> > > the
> > > > > car
> > > > > > > > > is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the
> > mechanical
> > > > > > > > > advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then
> > reconnect
> > > > > > > > > the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than
> before.
> > > > > > > > > If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you
open
> > > > > > > > > the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which
> may
> > > be
> > > > > > > > > the same defective thermal switch that's also running the
> EGR.
> > > > > > > > > Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to
> that
> > > > > > > > > switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably
> has
> > > > > > > > > vacuum routing diagrams too.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Good luck.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl
> > : )
> > > > > > > > > > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill
> down
> > > the
> > > > > road
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > us.
> > > > > > > > > > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a
week.
> > > > : )
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to
> > > 130Kph
> > > > > > > > > > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never
> > > thought
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > try
> > > > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with
> the
> > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't
> trust
> > > the
> > > > > > Haynes
> > > > > > > > > > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the
> underside
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > hood,
> > > > > > > > > > however I do agree that I might have a distributor
> problem.
> > > I'll
> > > > > > check
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the
> car
> > > was
> > > > > > > > > backfiring,
> > > > > > > > > > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark)
so
> > the
> > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > could be the problem.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car
to
> > > 2,500
> > > > > RPM
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the
car
> > is
> > > > > stone
> > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up
to
> > > > 2,500RPM
> > > > > > > cold
> > > > > > > > > > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the
> > thermo
> > > > > valve
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo
> > valve,
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > heats
> > > > > > > > > > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the
> > temp
> > > is
> > > > > hot
> > > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The
ERG
> > > does
> > > > > open
> > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual
says
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > ERG
> > > > > > > > > valve
> > > > > > > > > > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot.
The
> > ERG
> > > > > opens
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > fully
> > > > > > > > > > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold),
but
> > not
> > > > at
> > > > > > > idle.
> > > > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the
> > wrong
> > > > > times.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down
the
> > > > highway
> > > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back
> home
> > > in
> > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > drive,
> > > > > > > > > > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min.
> Checked
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red
> > > cherry
> > > > > > > tomato.
> > > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full
throttle.
> > > > > > > > > > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no
> go,
> > > > then
> > > > > > > check
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a
> thermo
> > > > > valve.
> > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the
ERG
> > > > diagram
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > 88
> > > > > > > > > > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting
> path
> > to
> > > > > > follow
> > > > > > > > now.
> > > > > > > > > > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you.
At
> > > least
> > > > I
> > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going
at
> > > > highway
> > > > > > > > > > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out
> > there
> > > > > > either.
> > > > > > > > > > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at
> > > fairly
> > > > > > > > > > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I
bet
> > > your
> > > > > > > > > > > acceleration really sucks. >
> > > > > > > > > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT
of
> > > > unburned
> > > > > > > > > > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your
manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary
> air
> > > > hose
> > > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably
> broken
> > or
> > > > > > > > > > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring),
so
> > the
> > > > > dist
> > > > > > > > > > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've
> compensated
> > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle
> is
> > > > open,
> > > > > > > > > > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of,
on
> > the
> > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine
> > would
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai,
> or
> > a
> > > > lot
> > > > > > > > > > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430
> for
> > a
> > > > > > > > > > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any
> dist
> > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it
has
> > the
> > > > > same
> > > > > > > > > > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ
slightly
> > > > between
> > > > > > > > > > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay
> trying
> > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few
> > months
> > > > ago
> > > > > > > > > > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing
out
> > > there
> > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different
> > > > auctions
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find
a
> > > > > > > > > > > used distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance.
Remember
> I
> > > was
> > > > > > saying
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to
eliminate
> > the
> > > > > > glowing
> > > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > > > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the
> > > crankshaft
> > > > > at
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can)
and
> > the
> > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%)
> > > > > > > > > > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the
> > problem
> > > > > gets
> > > > > > > > worse
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked
> the
> > > > spark
> > > > > > > plugs
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > now
> > > > > > > > > > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC,
> > plugs
> > > > are
> > > > > > > > > starting
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the
timing
> > > isn't
> > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either
> shifting
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth,
> > > > advancing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect.
I
> > > > checked
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC)
and
> > > revved
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing
mark
> > IE:
> > > > the
> > > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > > blur
> > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20%
> BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I
> > wipp
> > > > down
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > road
> > > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's
> because
> > > > I've
> > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC????
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a look at
the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red, seems
like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> Hey Bob
> Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold isn't
red
> at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my previous post.
I
> guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine speed is
> higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving faster,
> let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
>
> What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is under
> load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives fine,
good
> acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to do with
the
> fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission does
> require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum canister maybe
> leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive without any
> problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
>
> Mike
>
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife to her
> > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested that I
call
> on
> > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never got
> around
> > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you about
it.
> >
> > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the exhaust
> > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true, except for
> some
> > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You can't see
> this
> > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY I
forgot
> to
> > mention this yesterday.
> >
> > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I don't
get
> > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll back off
> the
> > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed out of the
> > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory you
have,
> > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that, pressing
> > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating, thus I
have
> to
> > back her off a bit.
> > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as fast, as
> > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100 plus from
> > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> >
> > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> >
> > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> >
> > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > Here's a test for you:
> > >
> > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective dist
> > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns,
> > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > > remains constant).
> > >
> > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear?
> > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph,
> > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing, your
> > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply
> > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > >
> > > Try it and let me know.
> > >
> > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the floor)
> > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're accelerating)?
> > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of those
> > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT) mentioned
> > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT for
> > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum dropping
> > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture results in
> > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually
> > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever (you're
> > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various
reason
> > why
> > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was timing. But
> > what's
> > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen when I
> > drive
> > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective vacuum
> > > advance
> > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a local
> > > wrecker
> > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was burnt or
> leaky
> > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the solution is
> > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the
valves,
> > > there
> > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that the
> valves
> > > were
> > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs are a
tan
> > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set them
> loose,
> > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
determined
> > that
> > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I just
added
> > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the engine
being
> > > cold.
> > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't have any
> luck
> > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
> clearances,
> > > if
> > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage so I
can
> > > tear
> > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running better
> now?
> > > LOL
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot
Exhaust
> > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near the
top.
> > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the cause.
The
> > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt or
> > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > >
> > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering when
> > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance was
> > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too tight,
> the
> > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not seat
> for
> > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4
> > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the
> engine
> > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but
> > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser than
> too
> > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent shape,
> > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this
mistake
> > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles on
the
> > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few
hours
> > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had set
the
> > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up in
> > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road before
> > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the top
> > chamber
> > > > > that
> > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker, but
> the
> > > last
> > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the
> engines,
> > > > just
> > > > > my
> > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the vacuum
> lines
> > > > (sorry
> > > > > I
> > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86
model
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part for
the
> > car.
> > > > > Again
> > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the
> highway.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the
> > > > distributor
> > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The vacuum
> > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an
> > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There
are
> > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for
> > manual.
> > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot
less.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002)
explaining
> > how
> > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams.
> > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal vacuum
> > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine
> > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
description
> > > which
> > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at either
of
> > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev up
> the
> > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the other.
> > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore
the
> > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is
> > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one that
> > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability
> > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's shot,
> > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this
> > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to
see
> > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor next.
If
> > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all
these
> > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an
> > analog!)
> > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car is
> > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer
> > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm
not
> > > sure
> > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2
sensors
> > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
penetrating
> > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust
manifold
> > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the EGR
> > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck,
> > they
> > > > > moved
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and
greased
> > > them
> > > > > up.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem.
> The
> > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased
> it,
> > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance
module
> > as
> > > it
> > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the
> bottom
> > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the
> line
> > to
> > > > > build
> > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2
or
> 3
> > > mm.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely
> > > working
> > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there
is
> > no
>> > > back
> > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached,
> revved
> > > the
> > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the
> > > > distributor
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then
> > > advancing
> > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a
> drive
> > > down
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the
> > exhaust
> > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph,
the
> > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out
> the
> > > > > > > > > 1988 Excel service manual online at
> www.hmaservice.com/webtech
> > .
> > > > > > > > > Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under
> > > > > > > > > "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then
> read
> > > > > > > > > about the distributor on page 30.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for
this
> > > dist
> > > > > > > > > is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm.
> This
> > > > > > > > > probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at
> 2500
> > > > rpms
> > > > > > > > > (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not
> enough).
> > > > > > > > > Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the
> > engine
> > > > > > > > > much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5°
> is
> > > > > > > > > not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing
> > light.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when
> > cold.
> > > > > > > > > It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor
> > > > > performance
> > > > > > > > > until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR
> being
> > > > > > > > > open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum,
which
> > is
> > > > > > > > > highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully
> > > closed
> > > > or
> > > > > > > > > fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like
> when
> > > the
> > > > > car
> > > > > > > > > is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the
> > mechanical
> > > > > > > > > advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then
> > reconnect
> > > > > > > > > the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than
> before.
> > > > > > > > > If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you
open
> > > > > > > > > the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which
> may
> > > be
> > > > > > > > > the same defective thermal switch that's also running the
> EGR.
> > > > > > > > > Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to
> that
> > > > > > > > > switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably
> has
> > > > > > > > > vacuum routing diagrams too.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Good luck.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl
> > : )
> > > > > > > > > > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill
> down
> > > the
> > > > > road
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > us.
> > > > > > > > > > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a
week.
> > > > : )
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to
> > > 130Kph
> > > > > > > > > > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never
> > > thought
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > try
> > > > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with
> the
> > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't
> trust
> > > the
> > > > > > Haynes
> > > > > > > > > > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the
> underside
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > hood,
> > > > > > > > > > however I do agree that I might have a distributor
> problem.
> > > I'll
> > > > > > check
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the
> car
> > > was
> > > > > > > > > backfiring,
> > > > > > > > > > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark)
so
> > the
> > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > could be the problem.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car
to
> > > 2,500
> > > > > RPM
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the
car
> > is
> > > > > stone
> > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up
to
> > > > 2,500RPM
> > > > > > > cold
> > > > > > > > > > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the
> > thermo
> > > > > valve
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo
> > valve,
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > heats
> > > > > > > > > > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the
> > temp
> > > is
> > > > > hot
> > > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The
ERG
> > > does
> > > > > open
> > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual
says
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > ERG
> > > > > > > > > valve
> > > > > > > > > > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot.
The
> > ERG
> > > > > opens
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > fully
> > > > > > > > > > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold),
but
> > not
> > > > at
> > > > > > > idle.
> > > > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the
> > wrong
> > > > > times.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down
the
> > > > highway
> > > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back
> home
> > > in
> > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > drive,
> > > > > > > > > > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min.
> Checked
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red
> > > cherry
> > > > > > > tomato.
> > > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full
throttle.
> > > > > > > > > > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no
> go,
> > > > then
> > > > > > > check
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a
> thermo
> > > > > valve.
> > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the
ERG
> > > > diagram
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > 88
> > > > > > > > > > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting
> path
> > to
> > > > > > follow
> > > > > > > > now.
> > > > > > > > > > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you.
At
> > > least
> > > > I
> > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going
at
> > > > highway
> > > > > > > > > > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out
> > there
> > > > > > either.
> > > > > > > > > > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at
> > > fairly
> > > > > > > > > > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I
bet
> > > your
> > > > > > > > > > > acceleration really sucks. >
> > > > > > > > > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT
of
> > > > unburned
> > > > > > > > > > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your
manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary
> air
> > > > hose
> > > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably
> broken
> > or
> > > > > > > > > > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring),
so
> > the
> > > > > dist
> > > > > > > > > > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've
> compensated
> > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle
> is
> > > > open,
> > > > > > > > > > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of,
on
> > the
> > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine
> > would
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai,
> or
> > a
> > > > lot
> > > > > > > > > > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430
> for
> > a
> > > > > > > > > > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any
> dist
> > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it
has
> > the
> > > > > same
> > > > > > > > > > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ
slightly
> > > > between
> > > > > > > > > > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay
> trying
> > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few
> > months
> > > > ago
> > > > > > > > > > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing
out
> > > there
> > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different
> > > > auctions
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find
a
> > > > > > > > > > > used distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance.
Remember
> I
> > > was
> > > > > > saying
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to
eliminate
> > the
> > > > > > glowing
> > > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > > > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the
> > > crankshaft
> > > > > at
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can)
and
> > the
> > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%)
> > > > > > > > > > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the
> > problem
> > > > > gets
> > > > > > > > worse
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked
> the
> > > > spark
> > > > > > > plugs
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > now
> > > > > > > > > > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC,
> > plugs
> > > > are
> > > > > > > > > starting
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the
timing
> > > isn't
> > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either
> shifting
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth,
> > > > advancing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect.
I
> > > > checked
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC)
and
> > > revved
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing
mark
> > IE:
> > > > the
> > > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > > blur
> > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20%
> BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I
> > wipp
> > > > down
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > road
> > > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's
> because
> > > > I've
> > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC????
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way I
did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
Try one more test:
Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
providing an extra 8° using this method).
BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
Bob
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> Update:
> Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a look at
> the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red, seems
> like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hey Bob
> > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold isn't
> red
> > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my previous
post.
> I
> > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine speed
is
> > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving faster,
> > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> >
> > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is under
> > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives fine,
> good
> > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to do with
> the
> > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission does
> > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum canister
maybe
> > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive without
any
> > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife to her
> > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested that I
> call
> > on
> > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never got
> > around
> > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you about
> it.
> > >
> > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the exhaust
> > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true, except
for
> > some
> > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You can't
see
> > this
> > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY I
> forgot
> > to
> > > mention this yesterday.
> > >
> > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I don't
> get
> > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll back
off
> > the
> > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed out of
the
> > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory you
> have,
> > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that,
pressing
> > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating, thus I
> have
> > to
> > > back her off a bit.
> > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as fast,
as
> > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100 plus
from
> > > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> > >
> > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > >
> > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > >
> > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > >
> > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective dist
> > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns,
> > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > > > remains constant).
> > > >
> > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear?
> > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph,
> > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing, your
> > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply
> > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > >
> > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > >
> > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the
floor)
> > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
accelerating)?
> > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of those
> > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT)
mentioned
> > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT for
> > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum dropping
> > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture results
in
> > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually
> > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever (you're
> > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various
> reason
> > > why
> > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was timing.
But
> > > what's
> > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen when
I
> > > drive
> > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective
vacuum
> > > > advance
> > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a
local
> > > > wrecker
> > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was burnt or
> > leaky
> > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the solution
is
> > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the
> valves,
> > > > there
> > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that the
> > valves
> > > > were
> > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs are a
> tan
> > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set them
> > loose,
> > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
> determined
> > > that
> > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I just
> added
> > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the engine
> being
> > > > cold.
> > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't have
any
> > luck
> > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
> > clearances,
> > > > if
> > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage so I
> can
> > > > tear
> > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running better
> > now?
> > > > LOL
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot
> Exhaust
> > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near the
> top.
> > > >> > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the cause.
> The
> > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt
or
> > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering
when
> > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance
was
> > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too
tight,
> > the
> > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not
seat
> > for
> > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4
> > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the
> > engine
> > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but
> > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser
than
> > too
> > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent
shape,
> > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this
> mistake
> > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles on
> the
> > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few
> hours
> > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had set
> the
> > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up in
> > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road before
> > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the top
> > > chamber
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker,
but
> > the
> > > > last
> > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the
> > engines,
> > > > > just
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the vacuum
> > lines
> > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86
> model
> > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part for
> the
> > > car.
> > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the
> > highway.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the
> > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The
vacuum
> > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an
> > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There
> are
> > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for
> > > manual.
> > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot
> less.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002)
> explaining
> > > how
> > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams.
> > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal
vacuum
> > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine
> > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
> description
> > > > which
> > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at
either
> of
> > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev
up
> > the
> > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the
other.
> > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore
> the
> > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is
> > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one
that
> > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability
> > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's
shot,
> > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this
> > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to
> see
> > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor
next.
> If
> > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all
> these
> > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an
> > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car
is
> > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer
> > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm
> not
> > > > sure
> > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2
> sensors
> > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
> penetrating
> > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust
> manifold
> > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the
EGR
> > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were
stuck,
> > > they
> > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and
> greased
> > > > them
> > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my
problem.
> > The
> > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and
greased
> > it,
> > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance
> module
> > > as
> > > > it
> > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the
> > bottom
> > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the
> > line
> > > to
> > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2
> or
> > 3
> > > > mm.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is
definitely
> > > > working
> > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now
there
> is
> > > no
> > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached,
> > revved
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the
> > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then
> > > > advancing
> > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a
> > drive
> > > > down
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the
> > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph,
> the
> > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
suggestions?
> > > > > > > > >
did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
Try one more test:
Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
providing an extra 8° using this method).
BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
Bob
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> Update:
> Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a look at
> the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red, seems
> like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hey Bob
> > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold isn't
> red
> > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my previous
post.
> I
> > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine speed
is
> > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving faster,
> > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> >
> > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is under
> > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives fine,
> good
> > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to do with
> the
> > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission does
> > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum canister
maybe
> > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive without
any
> > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife to her
> > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested that I
> call
> > on
> > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never got
> > around
> > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you about
> it.
> > >
> > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the exhaust
> > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true, except
for
> > some
> > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You can't
see
> > this
> > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY I
> forgot
> > to
> > > mention this yesterday.
> > >
> > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I don't
> get
> > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll back
off
> > the
> > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed out of
the
> > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory you
> have,
> > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that,
pressing
> > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating, thus I
> have
> > to
> > > back her off a bit.
> > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as fast,
as
> > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100 plus
from
> > > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> > >
> > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > >
> > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > >
> > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > >
> > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective dist
> > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns,
> > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > > > remains constant).
> > > >
> > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear?
> > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph,
> > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing, your
> > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply
> > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > >
> > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > >
> > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the
floor)
> > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
accelerating)?
> > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of those
> > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT)
mentioned
> > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT for
> > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum dropping
> > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture results
in
> > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually
> > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever (you're
> > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various
> reason
> > > why
> > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was timing.
But
> > > what's
> > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen when
I
> > > drive
> > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective
vacuum
> > > > advance
> > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a
local
> > > > wrecker
> > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was burnt or
> > leaky
> > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the solution
is
> > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the
> valves,
> > > > there
> > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that the
> > valves
> > > > were
> > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs are a
> tan
> > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set them
> > loose,
> > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
> determined
> > > that
> > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I just
> added
> > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the engine
> being
> > > > cold.
> > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't have
any
> > luck
> > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
> > clearances,
> > > > if
> > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage so I
> can
> > > > tear
> > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running better
> > now?
> > > > LOL
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot
> Exhaust
> > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near the
> top.
> > > >> > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the cause.
> The
> > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt
or
> > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering
when
> > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance
was
> > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too
tight,
> > the
> > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not
seat
> > for
> > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4
> > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the
> > engine
> > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but
> > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser
than
> > too
> > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent
shape,
> > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this
> mistake
> > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles on
> the
> > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few
> hours
> > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had set
> the
> > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up in
> > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road before
> > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the top
> > > chamber
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker,
but
> > the
> > > > last
> > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the
> > engines,
> > > > > just
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the vacuum
> > lines
> > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86
> model
> > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part for
> the
> > > car.
> > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the
> > highway.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the
> > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The
vacuum
> > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an
> > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There
> are
> > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for
> > > manual.
> > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot
> less.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002)
> explaining
> > > how
> > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams.
> > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal
vacuum
> > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine
> > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
> description
> > > > which
> > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at
either
> of
> > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev
up
> > the
> > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the
other.
> > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore
> the
> > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is
> > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one
that
> > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability
> > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's
shot,
> > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this
> > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to
> see
> > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor
next.
> If
> > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all
> these
> > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an
> > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car
is
> > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer
> > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm
> not
> > > > sure
> > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2
> sensors
> > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
> penetrating
> > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust
> manifold
> > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the
EGR
> > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were
stuck,
> > > they
> > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and
> greased
> > > > them
> > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my
problem.
> > The
> > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and
greased
> > it,
> > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance
> module
> > > as
> > > > it
> > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the
> > bottom
> > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the
> > line
> > > to
> > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2
> or
> > 3
> > > > mm.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is
definitely
> > > > working
> > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now
there
> is
> > > no
> > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached,
> > revved
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the
> > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then
> > > > advancing
> > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a
> > drive
> > > > down
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the
> > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph,
> the
> > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
suggestions?
> > > > > > > > >
#34
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Hey Bob
The car is a manual Transmission
That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
Mike
"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way I
> did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> Try one more test:
>
> Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> providing an extra 8° using this method).
>
> BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
>
> Bob
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > Update:
> > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a look
at
> > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red, seems
> > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hey Bob
> > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold
isn't
> > red
> > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my previous
> post.
> > I
> > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine speed
> is
> > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving
faster,
> > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > >
> > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is
under
> > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives fine,
> > good
> > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to do
with
> > the
> > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission
does
> > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum canister
> maybe
> > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive without
> any
> > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife to
her
> > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested that I
> > call
> > > on
> > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never got
> > > around
> > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you
about
> > it.
> > > >
> > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the
exhaust
> > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true, except
> for
> > > some
> > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You can't
> see
> > > this
> > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY I
> > forgot
> > > to
> > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > >
> > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I
don't
> > get
> > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll back
> off
> > > the
> > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed out of
> the
> > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory you
> > have,
> > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that,
> pressing
> > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating, thus I
> > have
> > > to
> > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as
fast,
> as
> > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100 plus
> from
> > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> > > >
> > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > >
> > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > >
> > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective dist
> > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns,
> > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > > > > remains constant).
> > > > >
> > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear?
> > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph,
> > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing,
your
> > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply
> > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > >
> > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > >
> > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the
> floor)
> > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> accelerating)?
> > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of those
> > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT)
> mentioned
> > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT for
> > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum
dropping
> > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture
results
> in
> > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually
> > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever (you're
> > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various
> > reason
> > > > why
> > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was timing.
> But
> > > > what's
> > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen
when
> I
> > > > drive
> > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective
> vacuum
> > > > > advance
> > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a
> local
> > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was burnt
or
> > > leaky
> > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the
solution
> is
> > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the
> > valves,
> > > > > there
> > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that the
> > > valves
> > > > > were
> > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs are
a
> > tan
> > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set them
> > > loose,
> > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
> > determined
> > > > that
> > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I just
> > added
> > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the engine
> > being
> > > > > cold.
> > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't have
> any
> > > luck
> > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
> > > clearances,
> > > > > if
> > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage so
I
> > can
> > > > > tear
> > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running
better
> > > now?
> > > > > LOL
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot
> > Exhaust
> > > > > > > Manfold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near
the
> > top.
> > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the
cause.
> > The
> > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt
> or
> > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering
> when
> > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance
> was
> > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too
> tight,
> > > the
> > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not
> seat
> > > for
> > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4
> > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the
> > > engine
> > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but
> > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser
> than
> > > too
> > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent
> shape,
> > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this
> > mistake
> > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles
on
> > the
> > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few
> > hours
> > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had
set
> > the
> > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up
in
> > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road
before
> > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the
top
> > > > chamber
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker,
> but
> > > the
> > > > > last
> > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the
> > > engines,
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the
vacuum
> > > lines
> > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86
> > model
> > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part
for
> > the
> > > > car.
> > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the
> > > highway.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on
the
> > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The
> vacuum
> > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for
an
> > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now).
There
> > are
> > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other
for
> > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot
> > less.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002)
> > explaining
> > > > how
> > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of
diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal
> vacuum
> > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the
engine
> > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
> > description
> > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at
> either
> > of
> > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev
> up
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the
> other.
> > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is
therefore
> > the
> > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car
is
> > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one
> that
> > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
driveability
> > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's
> shot,
> > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If
this
> > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily
to
> > see
> > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor
> next.
> > If
> > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all
> > these
> > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not
an
> > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the
car
> is
> > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the
computer
> > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out.
I'm
> > not
> > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2
> > sensors
> > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
> > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust
> > manifold
> > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the
> EGR
> > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were
> stuck,
> > > > they
> > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and
> > greased
> > > > > them
> > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my
> problem.
> > > The
> > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and
> greased
> > > it,
> > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance
> > module
> > > > as
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the
> > > bottom
> > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on
the
> > > line
> > > > to
> > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe
2
> > or
> > > 3
> > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is
> definitely
> > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now
> there
> > is
> > > > no
> > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light
attached,
> > > revved
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed
the
> > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and
then
> > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for
a
> > > drive
> > > > > down
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and
the
> > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at
100Kph,
> > the
> > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > >
>
>
The car is a manual Transmission
That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
Mike
"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way I
> did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> Try one more test:
>
> Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> providing an extra 8° using this method).
>
> BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
>
> Bob
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > Update:
> > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a look
at
> > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red, seems
> > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hey Bob
> > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold
isn't
> > red
> > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my previous
> post.
> > I
> > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine speed
> is
> > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving
faster,
> > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > >
> > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is
under
> > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives fine,
> > good
> > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to do
with
> > the
> > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission
does
> > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum canister
> maybe
> > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive without
> any
> > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife to
her
> > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested that I
> > call
> > > on
> > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never got
> > > around
> > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you
about
> > it.
> > > >
> > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the
exhaust
> > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true, except
> for
> > > some
> > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You can't
> see
> > > this
> > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY I
> > forgot
> > > to
> > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > >
> > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I
don't
> > get
> > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll back
> off
> > > the
> > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed out of
> the
> > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory you
> > have,
> > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that,
> pressing
> > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating, thus I
> > have
> > > to
> > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as
fast,
> as
> > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100 plus
> from
> > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> > > >
> > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > >
> > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > >
> > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective dist
> > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns,
> > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > > > > remains constant).
> > > > >
> > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear?
> > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph,
> > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing,
your
> > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply
> > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > >
> > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > >
> > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the
> floor)
> > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> accelerating)?
> > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of those
> > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT)
> mentioned
> > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT for
> > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum
dropping
> > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture
results
> in
> > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually
> > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever (you're
> > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various
> > reason
> > > > why
> > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was timing.
> But
> > > > what's
> > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen
when
> I
> > > > drive
> > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective
> vacuum
> > > > > advance
> > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a
> local
> > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was burnt
or
> > > leaky
> > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the
solution
> is
> > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the
> > valves,
> > > > > there
> > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that the
> > > valves
> > > > > were
> > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs are
a
> > tan
> > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set them
> > > loose,
> > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
> > determined
> > > > that
> > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I just
> > added
> > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the engine
> > being
> > > > > cold.
> > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't have
> any
> > > luck
> > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
> > > clearances,
> > > > > if
> > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage so
I
> > can
> > > > > tear
> > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running
better
> > > now?
> > > > > LOL
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot
> > Exhaust
> > > > > > > Manfold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near
the
> > top.
> > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the
cause.
> > The
> > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt
> or
> > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering
> when
> > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance
> was
> > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too
> tight,
> > > the
> > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not
> seat
> > > for
> > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4
> > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the
> > > engine
> > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but
> > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser
> than
> > > too
> > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent
> shape,
> > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this
> > mistake
> > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles
on
> > the
> > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few
> > hours
> > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had
set
> > the
> > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up
in
> > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road
before
> > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the
top
> > > > chamber
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker,
> but
> > > the
> > > > > last
> > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the
> > > engines,
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the
vacuum
> > > lines
> > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86
> > model
> > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part
for
> > the
> > > > car.
> > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the
> > > highway.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on
the
> > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The
> vacuum
> > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for
an
> > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now).
There
> > are
> > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other
for
> > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot
> > less.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002)
> > explaining
> > > > how
> > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of
diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal
> vacuum
> > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the
engine
> > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
> > description
> > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at
> either
> > of
> > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev
> up
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the
> other.
> > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is
therefore
> > the
> > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car
is
> > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one
> that
> > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
driveability
> > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's
> shot,
> > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If
this
> > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily
to
> > see
> > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor
> next.
> > If
> > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all
> > these
> > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not
an
> > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the
car
> is
> > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the
computer
> > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out.
I'm
> > not
> > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2
> > sensors
> > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
> > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust
> > manifold
> > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the
> EGR
> > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were
> stuck,
> > > > they
> > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and
> > greased
> > > > > them
> > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my
> problem.
> > > The
> > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and
> greased
> > > it,
> > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance
> > module
> > > > as
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the
> > > bottom
> > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on
the
> > > line
> > > > to
> > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe
2
> > or
> > > 3
> > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is
> definitely
> > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now
> there
> > is
> > > > no
> > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light
attached,
> > > revved
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed
the
> > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and
then
> > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for
a
> > > drive
> > > > > down
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and
the
> > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at
100Kph,
> > the
> > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > >
>
>
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Hey Bob
Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow I'm going
into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for the car.
I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
Mike
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> Hey Bob
> The car is a manual Transmission
> That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
>
> Mike
>
>
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way I
> > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> > Try one more test:
> >
> > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> >
> > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Update:
> > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a
look
> at
> > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red,
seems
> > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hey Bob
> > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold
> isn't
> > > red
> > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my previous
> > post.
> > > I
> > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine
speed
> > is
> > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving
> faster,
> > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > >
> > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is
> under
> > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives
fine,
> > > good
> > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to do
> with
> > > the
> > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission
> does
> > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum canister
> > maybe
> > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive
without
> > any
> > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife to
> her
> > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested that
I
> > > call
> > > > on
> > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never
got
> > > > around
> > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you
> about
> > > it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the
> exhaust
> > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true,
except
> > for
> > > > some
> > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You
can't
> > see
> > > > this
> > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY I
> > > forgot
> > > > to
> > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I
> don't
> > > get
> > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll
back
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed out
of
> > the
> > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory
you
> > > have,
> > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that,
> > pressing
> > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating, thus
I
> > > have
> > > > to
> > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as
> fast,
> > as
> > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100
plus
> > from
> > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective
dist
> > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns,
> > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear?
> > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph,
> > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing,
> your
> > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply
> > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the
> > floor)
> > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> > accelerating)?
> > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of
those
> > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT)
> > mentioned
> > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT
for
> > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum
> dropping
> > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture
> results
> > in
> > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually
> > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever
(you're
> > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various
> > > reason
> > > > > why
> > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was
timing.
> > But
> > > > > what's
> > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen
> when
> > I
> > > > > drive
> > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective
> > vacuum
> > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a
> > local
> > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was
burnt
> or
> > > > leaky
> > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the
> solution
> > is
> > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the
> > > valves,
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that
the
> > > > valves
> > > > > > were
> > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs
are
> a
> > > tan
> > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set
them
> > > > loose,
> > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
> > > determined
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I
just
> > > added
> > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the
engine
> > > being
> > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't
have
> > any
> > > > luck
> > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
> > > > clearances,
> > > > > > if
> > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage
so
> I
> > > can
> > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running
> better
> > > > now?
> > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd51@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot
> > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near
> the
> > > top.
> > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the
> cause.
> > > The
> > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded,
burnt
> > or
> > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering
> > when
> > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve
clearance
> > was
> > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too
> > tight,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not
> > seat
> > > > for
> > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances,
4
> > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning
the
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up
but
> > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly
looser
> > than
> > > > too
> > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent
> > shape,
> > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this
> > > mistake
> > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10
miles
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a
few
> > > hours
> > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had
> set
> > > the
> > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up
> in
> > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road
> before
> > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the
> top
> > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local
wrecker,
> > but
> > > > the
> > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing
the
> > > > engines,
> > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the
> vacuum
> > > > lines
> > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The
86
> > > model
> > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part
> for
> > > the
> > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on
the
> > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on
> the
> > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The
> > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for
> an
> > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now).
> There
> > > are
> > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other
> for
> > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a
lot
> > > less.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002)
> > > explaining
> > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of
> diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal
> > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the
> engine
> > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
> > > description
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at
> > either
> > > of
> > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you
rev
> > up
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the
> > other.
> > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is
> therefore
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car
> is
> > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the
one
> > that
> > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
> driveability
> > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's
> > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If
> this
> > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily
> to
> > > see
> > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor
> > next.
> > > If
> > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after
all
> > > these
> > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not
> an
> > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the
> car
> > is
> > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the
> computer
> > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out.
> I'm
> > > not
> > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2
> > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
> > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust
> > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out
the
> > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were
> > stuck,
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and
> > > greased
> > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my
> > problem.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and
> > greased
> > > > it,
> > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum
advance
> > > module
> > > > > as
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to
the
> > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on
> the
> > > > line
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much,
maybe
> 2
> > > or
> > > > 3
> > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is
> > definitely
> > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now
> > there
> > > is
> > > > > no
> > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light
> attached,
> > > > revved
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed
> the
> > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and
> then
> > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car
for
> a
> > > > drive
> > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and
> the
> > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at
> 100Kph,
> > > the
> > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> >
> >
>
>
Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow I'm going
into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for the car.
I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
Mike
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> Hey Bob
> The car is a manual Transmission
> That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
>
> Mike
>
>
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way I
> > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> > Try one more test:
> >
> > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> >
> > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Update:
> > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a
look
> at
> > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red,
seems
> > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hey Bob
> > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold
> isn't
> > > red
> > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my previous
> > post.
> > > I
> > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine
speed
> > is
> > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving
> faster,
> > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > >
> > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is
> under
> > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives
fine,
> > > good
> > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to do
> with
> > > the
> > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission
> does
> > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum canister
> > maybe
> > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive
without
> > any
> > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife to
> her
> > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested that
I
> > > call
> > > > on
> > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never
got
> > > > around
> > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you
> about
> > > it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the
> exhaust
> > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true,
except
> > for
> > > > some
> > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You
can't
> > see
> > > > this
> > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY I
> > > forgot
> > > > to
> > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I
> don't
> > > get
> > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll
back
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed out
of
> > the
> > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory
you
> > > have,
> > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that,
> > pressing
> > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating, thus
I
> > > have
> > > > to
> > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as
> fast,
> > as
> > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100
plus
> > from
> > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective
dist
> > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns,
> > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear?
> > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph,
> > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing,
> your
> > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply
> > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the
> > floor)
> > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> > accelerating)?
> > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of
those
> > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT)
> > mentioned
> > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT
for
> > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum
> dropping
> > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture
> results
> > in
> > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually
> > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever
(you're
> > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various
> > > reason
> > > > > why
> > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was
timing.
> > But
> > > > > what's
> > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen
> when
> > I
> > > > > drive
> > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective
> > vacuum
> > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a
> > local
> > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was
burnt
> or
> > > > leaky
> > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the
> solution
> > is
> > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the
> > > valves,
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that
the
> > > > valves
> > > > > > were
> > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs
are
> a
> > > tan
> > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set
them
> > > > loose,
> > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
> > > determined
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I
just
> > > added
> > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the
engine
> > > being
> > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't
have
> > any
> > > > luck
> > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
> > > > clearances,
> > > > > > if
> > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage
so
> I
> > > can
> > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running
> better
> > > > now?
> > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd51@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot
> > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near
> the
> > > top.
> > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the
> cause.
> > > The
> > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded,
burnt
> > or
> > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering
> > when
> > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve
clearance
> > was
> > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too
> > tight,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not
> > seat
> > > > for
> > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances,
4
> > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning
the
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up
but
> > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly
looser
> > than
> > > > too
> > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent
> > shape,
> > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this
> > > mistake
> > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10
miles
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a
few
> > > hours
> > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had
> set
> > > the
> > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up
> in
> > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road
> before
> > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the
> top
> > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local
wrecker,
> > but
> > > > the
> > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing
the
> > > > engines,
> > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the
> vacuum
> > > > lines
> > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The
86
> > > model
> > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part
> for
> > > the
> > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on
the
> > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on
> the
> > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The
> > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for
> an
> > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now).
> There
> > > are
> > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other
> for
> > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a
lot
> > > less.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002)
> > > explaining
> > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of
> diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal
> > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the
> engine
> > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
> > > description
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at
> > either
> > > of
> > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you
rev
> > up
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the
> > other.
> > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is
> therefore
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car
> is
> > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the
one
> > that
> > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
> driveability
> > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's
> > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If
> this
> > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily
> to
> > > see
> > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor
> > next.
> > > If
> > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after
all
> > > these
> > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not
> an
> > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the
> car
> > is
> > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the
> computer
> > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out.
> I'm
> > > not
> > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2
> > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
> > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust
> > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out
the
> > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were
> > stuck,
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and
> > > greased
> > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my
> > problem.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and
> > greased
> > > > it,
> > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum
advance
> > > module
> > > > > as
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to
the
> > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on
> the
> > > > line
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much,
maybe
> 2
> > > or
> > > > 3
> > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is
> > definitely
> > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now
> > there
> > > is
> > > > > no
> > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light
> attached,
> > > > revved
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed
> the
> > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and
> then
> > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car
for
> a
> > > > drive
> > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and
> the
> > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at
> 100Kph,
> > > the
> > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> >
> >
>
>
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Hi Bob
Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine IE holds
vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now, still the
same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small difference: this
time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the for the
problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red around
100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all. tomorrow I'm
thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting the valve
lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine clold
(added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let you know
how that turns out
Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
Mike
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> Hey Bob
> Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow I'm
going
> into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for the car.
> I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
>
> Mike
>
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hey Bob
> > The car is a manual Transmission
> > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way I
> > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> > > Try one more test:
> > >
> > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > >
> > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Update:
> > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a
> look
> > at
> > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red,
> seems
> > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold
> > isn't
> > > > red
> > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my
previous
> > > post.
> > > > I
> > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine
> speed
> > > is
> > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving
> > faster,
> > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is
> > under
> > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives
> fine,
> > > > good
> > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to
do
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission
> > does
> > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum
canister
> > > maybe
> > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive
> without
> > > any
> > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife
to
> > her
> > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested
that
> I
> > > > call
> > > > > on
> > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never
> got
> > > > > around
> > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you
> > about
> > > > it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the
> > exhaust
> > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true,
> except
> > > for
> > > > > some
> > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You
> can't
> > > see
> > > > > this
> > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY
I
> > > > forgot
> > > > > to
> > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I
> > don't
> > > > get
> > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll
> back
> > > off
> > > > > the
> > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed
out
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory
> you
> > > > have,
> > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that,
> > > pressing
> > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating,
thus
> I
> > > > have
> > > > > to
> > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as
> > fast,
> > > as
> > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100
> plus
> > > from
> > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective
> dist
> > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine
turns,
> > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower
gear?
> > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at
130Kph,
> > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing,
> > your
> > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed
simply
>
> > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the
> > > floor)
> > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of
> those
> > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT)
> > > mentioned
> > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT
> for
> > > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum
> > dropping
> > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture
> > results
> > > in
> > > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one
actually
> > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever
> (you're
> > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found
various
> > > > reason
> > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was
> timing.
> > > But
> > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't
happen
> > when
> > > I
> > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective
> > > vacuum
> > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out
a
> > > local
> > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was
> burnt
> > or
> > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the
> > solution
> > > is
> > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at
the
> > > > valves,
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that
> the
> > > > > valves
> > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs
> are
> > a
> > > > tan
> > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set
> them
> > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
> > > > determined
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I
> just
> > > > added
> > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the
> engine
> > > > being
> > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't
> have
> > > any
> > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
> > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring th car to a friend's heated
garage
> so
> > I
> > > > can
> > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running
> > better
> > > > > now?
> > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red
Hot
> > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread
near
> > the
> > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the
> > cause.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded,
> burnt
> > > or
> > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was
wondering
> > > when
> > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve
> clearance
> > > was
> > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's
too
> > > tight,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float
(not
> > > seat
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
clearances,
> 4
> > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning
> the
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up
> but
> > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly
> looser
> > > than
> > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent
> > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made
this
> > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10
> miles
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a
> few
> > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I
had
> > set
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it
up
> > in
> > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road
> > before
> > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's
the
> > top
> > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local
> wrecker,
> > > but
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing
> the
> > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the
> > vacuum
> > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The
> 86
> > > > model
> > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new
part
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on
> the
> > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance
on
> > the
> > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The
> > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part
for
> > an
> > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now).
> > There
> > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the
other
> > for
> > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a
> lot
> > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002)
> > > > explaining
> > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of
> > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for
normal
> > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the
> > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
> > > > description
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at
> > > either
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you
> rev
> > > up
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the
> > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is
> > therefore
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the
car
> > is
> > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the
> one
> > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
> > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one
that's
> > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds.
If
> > this
> > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
temporarily
> > to
> > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2
sensor
> > > next.
> > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after
> all
> > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter
(not
> > an
> > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when
the
> > car
> > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the
> > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it
out.
> > I'm
> > > > not
> > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket
O2
> > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
> > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust
> > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out
> the
> > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights
were
> > > stuck,
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle
and
> > > > greased
> > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my
> > > problem.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and
> > > greased
> > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum
> advance
> > > > module
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to
> the
> > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump)
on
> > the
> > > > > line
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much,
> maybe
> > 2
> > > > or
> > > > > 3
> > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is
> > > definitely
> > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC,
now
> > > there
> > > > is
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light
> > attached,
> > > > > revved
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I
fixed
> > the
> > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and
> > then
> > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car
> for
> > a
> > > > > drive
> > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped
and
> > the
> > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at
> > 100Kph,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine IE holds
vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now, still the
same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small difference: this
time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the for the
problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red around
100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all. tomorrow I'm
thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting the valve
lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine clold
(added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let you know
how that turns out
Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
Mike
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> Hey Bob
> Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow I'm
going
> into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for the car.
> I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
>
> Mike
>
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hey Bob
> > The car is a manual Transmission
> > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way I
> > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> > > Try one more test:
> > >
> > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > >
> > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Update:
> > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a
> look
> > at
> > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red,
> seems
> > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold
> > isn't
> > > > red
> > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my
previous
> > > post.
> > > > I
> > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine
> speed
> > > is
> > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving
> > faster,
> > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is
> > under
> > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives
> fine,
> > > > good
> > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to
do
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission
> > does
> > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum
canister
> > > maybe
> > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive
> without
> > > any
> > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife
to
> > her
> > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested
that
> I
> > > > call
> > > > > on
> > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never
> got
> > > > > around
> > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you
> > about
> > > > it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the
> > exhaust
> > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true,
> except
> > > for
> > > > > some
> > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You
> can't
> > > see
> > > > > this
> > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY
I
> > > > forgot
> > > > > to
> > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I
> > don't
> > > > get
> > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll
> back
> > > off
> > > > > the
> > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed
out
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory
> you
> > > > have,
> > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that,
> > > pressing
> > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating,
thus
> I
> > > > have
> > > > > to
> > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as
> > fast,
> > > as
> > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100
> plus
> > > from
> > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective
> dist
> > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine
turns,
> > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower
gear?
> > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at
130Kph,
> > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing,
> > your
> > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed
simply
>
> > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the
> > > floor)
> > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of
> those
> > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT)
> > > mentioned
> > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT
> for
> > > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum
> > dropping
> > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture
> > results
> > > in
> > > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one
actually
> > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever
> (you're
> > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found
various
> > > > reason
> > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was
> timing.
> > > But
> > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't
happen
> > when
> > > I
> > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective
> > > vacuum
> > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out
a
> > > local
> > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was
> burnt
> > or
> > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the
> > solution
> > > is
> > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at
the
> > > > valves,
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that
> the
> > > > > valves
> > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs
> are
> > a
> > > > tan
> > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set
> them
> > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
> > > > determined
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I
> just
> > > > added
> > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the
> engine
> > > > being
> > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't
> have
> > > any
> > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
> > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring th car to a friend's heated
garage
> so
> > I
> > > > can
> > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running
> > better
> > > > > now?
> > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red
Hot
> > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread
near
> > the
> > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the
> > cause.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded,
> burnt
> > > or
> > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was
wondering
> > > when
> > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve
> clearance
> > > was
> > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's
too
> > > tight,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float
(not
> > > seat
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
clearances,
> 4
> > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning
> the
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up
> but
> > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly
> looser
> > > than
> > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent
> > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made
this
> > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10
> miles
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a
> few
> > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I
had
> > set
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it
up
> > in
> > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road
> > before
> > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's
the
> > top
> > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local
> wrecker,
> > > but
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing
> the
> > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the
> > vacuum
> > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The
> 86
> > > > model
> > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new
part
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on
> the
> > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance
on
> > the
> > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The
> > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part
for
> > an
> > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now).
> > There
> > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the
other
> > for
> > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a
> lot
> > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002)
> > > > explaining
> > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of
> > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for
normal
> > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the
> > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
> > > > description
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at
> > > either
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you
> rev
> > > up
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the
> > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is
> > therefore
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the
car
> > is
> > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the
> one
> > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
> > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one
that's
> > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds.
If
> > this
> > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
temporarily
> > to
> > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2
sensor
> > > next.
> > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after
> all
> > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter
(not
> > an
> > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when
the
> > car
> > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the
> > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it
out.
> > I'm
> > > > not
> > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket
O2
> > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
> > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust
> > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out
> the
> > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights
were
> > > stuck,
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle
and
> > > > greased
> > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my
> > > problem.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and
> > > greased
> > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum
> advance
> > > > module
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to
> the
> > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump)
on
> > the
> > > > > line
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much,
> maybe
> > 2
> > > > or
> > > > > 3
> > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is
> > > definitely
> > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC,
now
> > > there
> > > > is
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light
> > attached,
> > > > > revved
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I
fixed
> > the
> > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and
> > then
> > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car
> for
> > a
> > > > > drive
> > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped
and
> > the
> > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at
> > 100Kph,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#37
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Hi Bob
Not sure if your still with me on this problem, I'm 90% sure I got the
problem nailed. The new distributor made the car work better, along with
adjusting the valve lash when the car is hot (remember I added a thousand of
an inch to the specs on a cold engine) Drove the car at 130Kph for 20 min,
the exhaust manifold is dark, dark, red, any lower speed and the problem
doesn't occur. So for now I'll just have to take it easy on the car, until I
can find out what is causing the slight problem at 130 Kph. I was thinking
that, the carb might not be set up properly, something I overlooked. Anyhoo
I just wanted to let you know that I got most of the problem figured out.
Cheers
Mike
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vt8n82rtbg67f3@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi Bob
> Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine IE holds
> vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now, still the
> same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small difference:
this
> time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the for the
> problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red around
> 100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all. tomorrow I'm
> thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting the valve
> lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine clold
> (added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let you know
> how that turns out
> Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
> Mike
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hey Bob
> > Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow I'm
> going
> > into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for the
car.
> > I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hey Bob
> > > The car is a manual Transmission
> > > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way I
> > > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> > > > Try one more test:
> > > >
> > > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> > > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> > > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > > >
> > > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Update:
> > > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a
> > look
> > > at
> > > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red,
> > seems
> > > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust
manifold
> > > isn't
> > > > > red
> > > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my
> previous
> > > > post.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine
> > speed
> > > > is
> > > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving
> > > faster,
> > > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car
is
> > > under
> > > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives
> > fine,
> > > > > good
> > > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to
> do
> > > with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The
transmission
> > > does
> > > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum
> canister
> > > > maybe
> > > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive
> > without
> > > > any
> > > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife
> to
> > > her
> > > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested
> that
> > I
> > > > > call
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I
never
> > got
> > > > > > around
> > > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to
you
> > > about
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the
> > > exhaust
> > > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true,
> > except
> > > > for
> > > > > > some
> > > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You
> > can't
> > > > see
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night.
SORRY
> I
> > > > > forgot
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If
I
> > > don't
> > > > > get
> > > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll
> > back
> > > > off
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed
> out
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good
theory
> > you
> > > > > have,
> > > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive,
that,
> > > > pressing
> > > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating,
> thus
> > I
> > > > > have
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car
as
> > > fast,
> > > > as
> > > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100
> > plus
> > > > from
> > > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at
100Kph.
> > > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective
> > dist
> > > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine
> turns,
> > > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the
gas
> > > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower
> gear?
> > > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at
> 130Kph,
> > > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the
timing,
> > > your
> > > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed
> simply
> >
> > > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to
the
> > > > floor)
> > > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> > > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of
> > those
> > > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT)
> > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at
WOT
> > for
> > > > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit
that
> > > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum
> > > dropping
> > > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture
> > > results
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one
> actually
> > > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever
> > (you're
> > > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found
> various
> > > > > reason
> > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was
> > timing.
> > > > But
> > > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't
> happen
> > > when
> > > > I
> > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a
defective
> > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking
out
> a
> > > > local
> > > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was
> > burnt
> > > or
> > > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the
> > > solution
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at
> the
> > > > > valves,
> > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed
that
> > the
> > > > > > valves
> > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark
plugs
> > are
> > > a
> > > > > tan
> > > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally
set
> > them
> > > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
> > > > > determined
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I
> > just
> > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for he
> > engine
> > > > > being
> > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't
> > have
> > > > any
> > > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the
hot
> > > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated
> garage
> > so
> > > I
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is
running
> > > better
> > > > > > now?
> > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red
> Hot
> > > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread
> near
> > > the
> > > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to
the
> > > cause.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded,
> > burnt
> > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was
> wondering
> > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve
> > clearance
> > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's
> too
> > > > tight,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float
> (not
> > > > seat
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
> clearances,
> > 4
> > > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after
turning
> > the
> > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed
up
> > but
> > > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly
> > looser
> > > > than
> > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in
decent
> > > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made
> this
> > > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10
> > miles
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up
a
> > few
> > > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I
> had
> > > set
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed
it
> up
> > > in
> > > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the
road
> > > before
> > > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's
> the
> > > top
> > > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local
> > wrecker,
> > > > but
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were
missing
> > the
> > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the
> > > vacuum
> > > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem.
The
> > 86
> > > > > model
> > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new
> part
> > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph)
on
> > the
> > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of
advance
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs.
The
> > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part
> for
> > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right
now).
> > > There
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the
> other
> > > for
> > > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for
a
> > lot
> > > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article
(V1-30-002)
> > > > > explaining
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of
> > > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for
> normal
> > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when
the
> > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
> > > > > description
> > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction
at
> > > > either
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If
you
> > rev
> > > > up
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not
the
> > > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is
> > > therefore
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the
> car
> > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is
the
> > one
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
> > > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one
> that's
> > > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds.
> If
> > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
> temporarily
> > > to
> > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2
> sensor
> > > > next.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out
after
> > all
> > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter
> (not
> > > an
> > > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when
> the
> > > car
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the
> > > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it
> out.
> > > I'm
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket
> O2
> > > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
> > > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the
exhaust
> > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning
out
> > the
> > > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights
> were
> > > > stuck,
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle
> and
> > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my
> > > > problem.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up
and
> > > > greased
> > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum
> > advance
> > > > > module
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached
to
> > the
> > > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand
pump)
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > line
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much,
> > maybe
> > > 2
> > > > > or
> > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is
> > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC,
> now
> > > > there
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light
> > > attached,
> > > > > > revved
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I
> fixed
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees
and
> > > then
> > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the
car
> > for
> > > a
> > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped
> and
> > > the
> > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at
> > > 100Kph,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> > > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Not sure if your still with me on this problem, I'm 90% sure I got the
problem nailed. The new distributor made the car work better, along with
adjusting the valve lash when the car is hot (remember I added a thousand of
an inch to the specs on a cold engine) Drove the car at 130Kph for 20 min,
the exhaust manifold is dark, dark, red, any lower speed and the problem
doesn't occur. So for now I'll just have to take it easy on the car, until I
can find out what is causing the slight problem at 130 Kph. I was thinking
that, the carb might not be set up properly, something I overlooked. Anyhoo
I just wanted to let you know that I got most of the problem figured out.
Cheers
Mike
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vt8n82rtbg67f3@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi Bob
> Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine IE holds
> vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now, still the
> same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small difference:
this
> time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the for the
> problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red around
> 100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all. tomorrow I'm
> thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting the valve
> lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine clold
> (added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let you know
> how that turns out
> Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
> Mike
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hey Bob
> > Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow I'm
> going
> > into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for the
car.
> > I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hey Bob
> > > The car is a manual Transmission
> > > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way I
> > > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> > > > Try one more test:
> > > >
> > > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> > > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> > > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > > >
> > > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Update:
> > > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a
> > look
> > > at
> > > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red,
> > seems
> > > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust
manifold
> > > isn't
> > > > > red
> > > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my
> previous
> > > > post.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine
> > speed
> > > > is
> > > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving
> > > faster,
> > > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car
is
> > > under
> > > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives
> > fine,
> > > > > good
> > > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to
> do
> > > with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The
transmission
> > > does
> > > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum
> canister
> > > > maybe
> > > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive
> > without
> > > > any
> > > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife
> to
> > > her
> > > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested
> that
> > I
> > > > > call
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I
never
> > got
> > > > > > around
> > > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to
you
> > > about
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the
> > > exhaust
> > > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true,
> > except
> > > > for
> > > > > > some
> > > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You
> > can't
> > > > see
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night.
SORRY
> I
> > > > > forgot
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If
I
> > > don't
> > > > > get
> > > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll
> > back
> > > > off
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed
> out
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good
theory
> > you
> > > > > have,
> > > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive,
that,
> > > > pressing
> > > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating,
> thus
> > I
> > > > > have
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car
as
> > > fast,
> > > > as
> > > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100
> > plus
> > > > from
> > > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at
100Kph.
> > > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective
> > dist
> > > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine
> turns,
> > > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the
gas
> > > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower
> gear?
> > > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at
> 130Kph,
> > > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the
timing,
> > > your
> > > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed
> simply
> >
> > > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to
the
> > > > floor)
> > > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> > > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of
> > those
> > > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT)
> > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at
WOT
> > for
> > > > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit
that
> > > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum
> > > dropping
> > > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture
> > > results
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one
> actually
> > > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever
> > (you're
> > > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found
> various
> > > > > reason
> > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was
> > timing.
> > > > But
> > > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't
> happen
> > > when
> > > > I
> > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a
defective
> > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking
out
> a
> > > > local
> > > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was
> > burnt
> > > or
> > > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the
> > > solution
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at
> the
> > > > > valves,
> > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed
that
> > the
> > > > > > valves
> > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark
plugs
> > are
> > > a
> > > > > tan
> > > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally
set
> > them
> > > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
> > > > > determined
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I
> > just
> > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for he
> > engine
> > > > > being
> > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't
> > have
> > > > any
> > > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the
hot
> > > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated
> garage
> > so
> > > I
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is
running
> > > better
> > > > > > now?
> > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red
> Hot
> > > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread
> near
> > > the
> > > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to
the
> > > cause.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded,
> > burnt
> > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was
> wondering
> > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve
> > clearance
> > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's
> too
> > > > tight,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float
> (not
> > > > seat
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
> clearances,
> > 4
> > > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after
turning
> > the
> > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed
up
> > but
> > > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly
> > looser
> > > > than
> > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in
decent
> > > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made
> this
> > > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10
> > miles
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up
a
> > few
> > > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I
> had
> > > set
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed
it
> up
> > > in
> > > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the
road
> > > before
> > > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's
> the
> > > top
> > > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local
> > wrecker,
> > > > but
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were
missing
> > the
> > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the
> > > vacuum
> > > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem.
The
> > 86
> > > > > model
> > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new
> part
> > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph)
on
> > the
> > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of
advance
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs.
The
> > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part
> for
> > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right
now).
> > > There
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the
> other
> > > for
> > > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for
a
> > lot
> > > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article
(V1-30-002)
> > > > > explaining
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of
> > > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for
> normal
> > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when
the
> > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
> > > > > description
> > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction
at
> > > > either
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If
you
> > rev
> > > > up
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not
the
> > > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is
> > > therefore
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the
> car
> > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is
the
> > one
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
> > > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one
> that's
> > > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds.
> If
> > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
> temporarily
> > > to
> > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2
> sensor
> > > > next.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out
after
> > all
> > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter
> (not
> > > an
> > > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when
> the
> > > car
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the
> > > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it
> out.
> > > I'm
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket
> O2
> > > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
> > > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the
exhaust
> > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning
out
> > the
> > > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights
> were
> > > > stuck,
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle
> and
> > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my
> > > > problem.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up
and
> > > > greased
> > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum
> > advance
> > > > > module
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached
to
> > the
> > > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand
pump)
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > line
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much,
> > maybe
> > > 2
> > > > > or
> > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is
> > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC,
> now
> > > > there
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light
> > > attached,
> > > > > > revved
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I
> fixed
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees
and
> > > then
> > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the
car
> > for
> > > a
> > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped
> and
> > > the
> > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at
> > > 100Kph,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> > > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#38
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Thanks for the update. I've never driven my brother's 91 Fuel Inj
Excel at that high a speed for an extended period, but I did notice
that the exhaust manifold heat shield that I replaced a couple of
years ago looks pretty beat up for such a relatively young part,
which may mean that this may just be a design flaw with this
engine.
As I've said before, if you're pushing the engine to keep it going
at 130Kph, you may not be supplying it with enough ported
vacuum to keep the dist at its maximum advance. If you have a
vacuum gauge, try putting it inline using a tee with the hose going
to the dist advance, and see what the readings are at 100 vs 130.
You can always advance the base timing from 12 to, say, 14 BTDC
as long as the engine doesn't knock and performance doesn't
suffer.
I doubt there's a carb problem, but if it was running too rich at full
throttle, it should backfire a bit when you let up sharply on the gas.
Other than a weak power valve spring or slightly clogged secondary
air bleeds, there's not a whole lot to adjust on a carb.
And once again, check out the air injection hose to the exhaust
manifold. Block it off, plug it, whatever, to stop any air from entering
the manifold.
And for what it's worth, I won't have a 91 Excel to work on anymore.
My brother managed to effectively total his on a slippery interstate
last week during that New England storm. Fishtailing and bouncing
from an adjacent car to a jersey barrier and back, even at a really
low speed, will tend to do that. And damn, I just got it to pass a
state emissions test for the first time in 6 years thanks to a new
catalytic converter I installed over Thanksgiving. The new part just
messed up the car's karma, and it was doomed.
Bob
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vtddldjlhdc5d@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi Bob
> Not sure if your still with me on this problem, I'm 90% sure I got the
> problem nailed. The new distributor made the car work better, along with
> adjusting the valve lash when the car is hot (remember I added a thousand
of
> an inch to the specs on a cold engine) Drove the car at 130Kph for 20 min,
> the exhaust manifold is dark, dark, red, any lower speed and the problem
> doesn't occur. So for now I'll just have to take it easy on the car, until
I
> can find out what is causing the slight problem at 130 Kph. I was thinking
> that, the carb might not be set up properly, something I overlooked.
Anyhoo
> I just wanted to let you know that I got most of the problem figured out.
> Cheers
> Mike
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vt8n82rtbg67f3@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hi Bob
> > Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine IE
holds
> > vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now, still the
> > same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small difference:
> this
> > time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the for
the
> > problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red
around
> > 100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all. tomorrow
I'm
> > thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting the
valve
> > lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine clold
> > (added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let you
know
> > how that turns out
> > Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
> > Mike
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hey Bob
> > > Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow I'm
> > going
> > > into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for the
> car.
> > > I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hey Bob
> > > > The car is a manual Transmission
> > > > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way
I
> > > > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> > > > > Try one more test:
> > > > >
> > > > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > > > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > > > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > > > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> > > > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> > > > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took
a
> > > look
> > > > at
> > > > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be
red,
> > > seems
> > > > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust
> manifold
> > > > isn't
> > > > > > red
> > > > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my
> > previous
> > > > > post.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the
engine
> > > speed
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is
driving
> > > > faster,
> > > > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the
car
> is
> > > > under
> > > > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car
drives
> > > fine,
> > > > > > good
> > > > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has
to
> > do
> > > > with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The
> transmission
> > > > does
> > > > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum
> > canister
> > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive
> > > without
> > > > > any
> > > > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the
wife
> > to
> > > > her
> > > > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they
suggested
> > that
> > > I
> > > > > > call
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I
> never
> > > got
> > > > > > > around
> > > > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to
> you
> > > > about
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that
the
> > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true,
> > > except
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold).
You
> > > can't
> > > > > see
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night.
> SORRY
> > I
> > > > > > forgot
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor.
If
> I
> > > > don't
> > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal,
I'll
> > > back
> > > > > off
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of
speed
> > out
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good
> theory
> > > you
> > > > > > have,
> > > > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive,
> that,
> > > > > pressing
> > > > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from
accelerating,
> > thus
> > > I
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car
> as
> > > > fast,
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at
100
> > > plus
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on
fire.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at
> 100Kph.
> > > > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a
defective
> > > dist
> > > > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when
the
> > > > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine
> > turns,
> > > > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the
> gas
> > > > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower
> > gear?
> > > > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at
> > 130Kph,
> > > > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the
> timing,
> > > > your
> > > > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed
> > simply
> > >
> > > > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into
the
> > > > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to
> the
> > > > > floor)
> > > > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> > > > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One
of
> > > those
> > > > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at
WOT)
> > > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at
> WOT
> > > for
> > > > > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit
> that
> > > > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold
vacuum
> > > > dropping
> > > > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich
mixture
> > > > results
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one
> > actually
> > > > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever
> > > (you're
> > > > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found
> > various
> > > > > > reason
> > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was
> > > timing.
> > > > > But
> > > > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't
> > happen
> > > > when
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a
> defective
> > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking
> out
> > a
> > > > > local
> > > > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem
was
> > > burnt
> > > > or
> > > > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly andthe
> > > > solution
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked
at
> > the
> > > > > > valves,
> > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed
> that
> > > the
> > > > > > > valves
> > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark
> plugs
> > > are
> > > > a
> > > > > > tan
> > > > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally
> set
> > > them
> > > > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After
I
> > > > > > determined
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold,
I
> > > just
> > > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for
the
> > > engine
> > > > > > being
> > > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I
don't
> > > have
> > > > > any
> > > > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the
> hot
> > > > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated
> > garage
> > > so
> > > > I
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is
> running
> > > > better
> > > > > > > now?
> > > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on
Red
> > Hot
> > > > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread
> > near
> > > > the
> > > > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to
> the
> > > > cause.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing
retarded,
> > > burnt
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was
> > wondering
> > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve
> > > clearance
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If
it's
> > too
> > > > > tight,
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to
float
> > (not
> > > > > seat
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
> > clearances,
> > > 4
> > > > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after
> turning
> > > the
> > > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully
warmed
> up
> > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly
> > > looser
> > > > > than
> > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in
> decent
> > > > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I
made
> > this
> > > > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for
10
> > > miles
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right
up
> a
> > > few
> > > > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that
I
> > had
> > > > set
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed
> it
> > up
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the
> road
> > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum,
it's
> > the
> > > > top
> > > > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local
> > > wrecker,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were
> missing
> > > the
> > > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse
the
> > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem.
> The
> > > 86
> > > > > > model
> > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new
> > part
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph)
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of
> advance
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs.
> The
> > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate
part
> > for
> > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right
> now).
> > > > There
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the
> > other
> > > > for
> > > > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard
for
> a
> > > lot
> > > > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article
> (V1-30-002)
> > > > > > explaining
> > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of
> > > > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for
> > normal
> > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when
> the
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from
your
> > > > > > description
> > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no
suction
> at
> > > > > either
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If
> you
> > > rev
> > > > > up
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not
> the
> > > > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is
> > > > therefore
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when
the
> > car
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is
> the
> > > one
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
> > > > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one
> > that's
> > > > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway
speeds.
> > If
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
> > temporarily
> > > > to
> > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2
> > sensor
> > > > > next.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out
> after
> > > all
> > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital
voltmeter
> > (not
> > > > an
> > > > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector
when
> > the
> > > > car
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the
> > > > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean
it
> > out.
> > > > I'm
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine.
Aftermarket
> > O2
> > > > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot
of
> > > > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the
> exhaust
> > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning
> out
> > > the
> > > > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote
in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights
> > were
> > > > > stuck,
> > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights,
spindle
> > and
> > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of
my
> > > > > problem.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up
> and
> > > > > greased
> > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum
> > > advance
> > > > > > module
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line
attached
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand
> pump)
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > line
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very
much,
> > > maybe
> > > > 2
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car
is
> > > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees
BTDC,
> > now
> > > > > there
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light
> > > > attached,
> > > > > > > revved
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I
> > fixed
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees
> and
> > > > then
> > > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the
> car
> > > for
> > > > a
> > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min,
stopped
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive
at
> > > > 100Kph,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> > > > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Excel at that high a speed for an extended period, but I did notice
that the exhaust manifold heat shield that I replaced a couple of
years ago looks pretty beat up for such a relatively young part,
which may mean that this may just be a design flaw with this
engine.
As I've said before, if you're pushing the engine to keep it going
at 130Kph, you may not be supplying it with enough ported
vacuum to keep the dist at its maximum advance. If you have a
vacuum gauge, try putting it inline using a tee with the hose going
to the dist advance, and see what the readings are at 100 vs 130.
You can always advance the base timing from 12 to, say, 14 BTDC
as long as the engine doesn't knock and performance doesn't
suffer.
I doubt there's a carb problem, but if it was running too rich at full
throttle, it should backfire a bit when you let up sharply on the gas.
Other than a weak power valve spring or slightly clogged secondary
air bleeds, there's not a whole lot to adjust on a carb.
And once again, check out the air injection hose to the exhaust
manifold. Block it off, plug it, whatever, to stop any air from entering
the manifold.
And for what it's worth, I won't have a 91 Excel to work on anymore.
My brother managed to effectively total his on a slippery interstate
last week during that New England storm. Fishtailing and bouncing
from an adjacent car to a jersey barrier and back, even at a really
low speed, will tend to do that. And damn, I just got it to pass a
state emissions test for the first time in 6 years thanks to a new
catalytic converter I installed over Thanksgiving. The new part just
messed up the car's karma, and it was doomed.
Bob
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vtddldjlhdc5d@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi Bob
> Not sure if your still with me on this problem, I'm 90% sure I got the
> problem nailed. The new distributor made the car work better, along with
> adjusting the valve lash when the car is hot (remember I added a thousand
of
> an inch to the specs on a cold engine) Drove the car at 130Kph for 20 min,
> the exhaust manifold is dark, dark, red, any lower speed and the problem
> doesn't occur. So for now I'll just have to take it easy on the car, until
I
> can find out what is causing the slight problem at 130 Kph. I was thinking
> that, the carb might not be set up properly, something I overlooked.
Anyhoo
> I just wanted to let you know that I got most of the problem figured out.
> Cheers
> Mike
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vt8n82rtbg67f3@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hi Bob
> > Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine IE
holds
> > vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now, still the
> > same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small difference:
> this
> > time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the for
the
> > problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red
around
> > 100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all. tomorrow
I'm
> > thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting the
valve
> > lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine clold
> > (added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let you
know
> > how that turns out
> > Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
> > Mike
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hey Bob
> > > Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow I'm
> > going
> > > into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for the
> car.
> > > I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hey Bob
> > > > The car is a manual Transmission
> > > > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way
I
> > > > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> > > > > Try one more test:
> > > > >
> > > > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > > > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > > > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > > > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> > > > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> > > > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took
a
> > > look
> > > > at
> > > > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be
red,
> > > seems
> > > > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust
> manifold
> > > > isn't
> > > > > > red
> > > > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my
> > previous
> > > > > post.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the
engine
> > > speed
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is
driving
> > > > faster,
> > > > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the
car
> is
> > > > under
> > > > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car
drives
> > > fine,
> > > > > > good
> > > > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has
to
> > do
> > > > with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The
> transmission
> > > > does
> > > > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum
> > canister
> > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive
> > > without
> > > > > any
> > > > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the
wife
> > to
> > > > her
> > > > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they
suggested
> > that
> > > I
> > > > > > call
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I
> never
> > > got
> > > > > > > around
> > > > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to
> you
> > > > about
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that
the
> > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true,
> > > except
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold).
You
> > > can't
> > > > > see
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night.
> SORRY
> > I
> > > > > > forgot
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor.
If
> I
> > > > don't
> > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal,
I'll
> > > back
> > > > > off
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of
speed
> > out
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good
> theory
> > > you
> > > > > > have,
> > > > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive,
> that,
> > > > > pressing
> > > > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from
accelerating,
> > thus
> > > I
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car
> as
> > > > fast,
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at
100
> > > plus
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on
fire.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at
> 100Kph.
> > > > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a
defective
> > > dist
> > > > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when
the
> > > > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine
> > turns,
> > > > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the
> gas
> > > > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower
> > gear?
> > > > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at
> > 130Kph,
> > > > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the
> timing,
> > > > your
> > > > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed
> > simply
> > >
> > > > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into
the
> > > > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to
> the
> > > > > floor)
> > > > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> > > > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One
of
> > > those
> > > > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at
WOT)
> > > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at
> WOT
> > > for
> > > > > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit
> that
> > > > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold
vacuum
> > > > dropping
> > > > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich
mixture
> > > > results
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one
> > actually
> > > > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever
> > > (you're
> > > > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found
> > various
> > > > > > reason
> > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was
> > > timing.
> > > > > But
> > > > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't
> > happen
> > > > when
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a
> defective
> > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking
> out
> > a
> > > > > local
> > > > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem
was
> > > burnt
> > > > or
> > > > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly andthe
> > > > solution
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked
at
> > the
> > > > > > valves,
> > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed
> that
> > > the
> > > > > > > valves
> > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark
> plugs
> > > are
> > > > a
> > > > > > tan
> > > > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally
> set
> > > them
> > > > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After
I
> > > > > > determined
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold,
I
> > > just
> > > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for
the
> > > engine
> > > > > > being
> > > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I
don't
> > > have
> > > > > any
> > > > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the
> hot
> > > > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated
> > garage
> > > so
> > > > I
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is
> running
> > > > better
> > > > > > > now?
> > > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on
Red
> > Hot
> > > > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread
> > near
> > > > the
> > > > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to
> the
> > > > cause.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing
retarded,
> > > burnt
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was
> > wondering
> > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve
> > > clearance
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If
it's
> > too
> > > > > tight,
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to
float
> > (not
> > > > > seat
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
> > clearances,
> > > 4
> > > > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after
> turning
> > > the
> > > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully
warmed
> up
> > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly
> > > looser
> > > > > than
> > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in
> decent
> > > > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I
made
> > this
> > > > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for
10
> > > miles
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right
up
> a
> > > few
> > > > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that
I
> > had
> > > > set
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed
> it
> > up
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the
> road
> > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum,
it's
> > the
> > > > top
> > > > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local
> > > wrecker,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were
> missing
> > > the
> > > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse
the
> > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem.
> The
> > > 86
> > > > > > model
> > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new
> > part
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph)
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of
> advance
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs.
> The
> > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate
part
> > for
> > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right
> now).
> > > > There
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the
> > other
> > > > for
> > > > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard
for
> a
> > > lot
> > > > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article
> (V1-30-002)
> > > > > > explaining
> > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of
> > > > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for
> > normal
> > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when
> the
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from
your
> > > > > > description
> > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no
suction
> at
> > > > > either
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If
> you
> > > rev
> > > > > up
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not
> the
> > > > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is
> > > > therefore
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when
the
> > car
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is
> the
> > > one
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
> > > > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one
> > that's
> > > > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway
speeds.
> > If
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
> > temporarily
> > > > to
> > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2
> > sensor
> > > > > next.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out
> after
> > > all
> > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital
voltmeter
> > (not
> > > > an
> > > > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector
when
> > the
> > > > car
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the
> > > > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean
it
> > out.
> > > > I'm
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine.
Aftermarket
> > O2
> > > > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot
of
> > > > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the
> exhaust
> > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning
> out
> > > the
> > > > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote
in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights
> > were
> > > > > stuck,
> > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights,
spindle
> > and
> > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of
my
> > > > > problem.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up
> and
> > > > > greased
> > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum
> > > advance
> > > > > > module
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line
attached
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand
> pump)
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > line
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very
much,
> > > maybe
> > > > 2
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car
is
> > > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees
BTDC,
> > now
> > > > > there
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light
> > > > attached,
> > > > > > > revved
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I
> > fixed
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees
> and
> > > > then
> > > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the
> car
> > > for
> > > > a
> > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min,
stopped
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive
at
> > > > 100Kph,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> > > > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
I agree it could be a design flaw, however Hyundai would have taken care of
the problem by now (1986-91)
I'll research the problem, check to see if the dis has enough vacuum as you
are suggesting.
BTW, the dis timing is around 6% BTDC, I left the dis timing like this
becacause I knew it to be correct. When I said that I changed the dis timing
to 12% BTDC, and got a posiative result, I changed it back to the
recommended specs 4 BTDC +-1
I found 4 degrees to be a little sluggish and 6 degrees to be right on the
money.
With the setup the way I have it right now, releasing my foot from the gas
pedal sharply doesn't produce any back fire, however I think you ment if I
had the engine set to 12 degrees BTDC. That is a good theory that you have,
I'll give it a shot. One thing I forgot to mention in my last post...I has
some white deposits on #1 and #2 spark plugs, after readjusting the valve
lash with the engine hot, the plugs are fine, funny...when I lived in
Ottawa, I worked as an auto mechanic for 7 years and have known lots of
mechnics to add a couple of thou to the specs so the can adjust valves (over
head cam) on a cold engine. This methiod has always worked great, I gess in
my case I have valve margins that are warn unevenly producing a little bit
of a gap. I'll definatly plug the air injection system and see if that makes
a difference, however it may be a few days before I get back to you as I
have to reinstall Windows XP having a internet problem and did everything
that is humanly possiable to fix the problem and no go, so gots to reinstall
the OS. BTW if you have any computer, hardware, software, networking
problems, I'm the man. My specility is operating system trouble shooting. I
worked for Compaq for 4+ years in the commercial divsion and have 10 years
of combined trouble shooting experience.
Anyhoo I'll do a few tests on the car and let ya know.
Mike
"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:br8qm6$kq9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> Thanks for the update. I've never driven my brother's 91 Fuel Inj
> Excel at that high a speed for an extended period, but I did notice
> that the exhaust manifold heat shield that I replaced a couple of
> years ago looks pretty beat up for such a relatively young part,
> which may mean that this may just be a design flaw with this
> engine.
>
> As I've said before, if you're pushing the engine to keep it going
> at 130Kph, you may not be supplying it with enough ported
> vacuum to keep the dist at its maximum advance. If you have a
> vacuum gauge, try putting it inline using a tee with the hose going
> to the dist advance, and see what the readings are at 100 vs 130.
>
> You can always advance the base timing from 12 to, say, 14 BTDC
> as long as the engine doesn't knock and performance doesn't
> suffer.
>
> I doubt there's a carb problem, but if it was running too rich at full
> throttle, it should backfire a bit when you let up sharply on the gas.
> Other than a weak power valve spring or slightly clogged secondary
> air bleeds, there's not a whole lot to adjust on a carb.
>
> And once again, check out the air injection hose to the exhaust
> manifold. Block it off, plug it, whatever, to stop any air from entering
> the manifold.
>
> And for what it's worth, I won't have a 91 Excel to work on anymore.
> My brother managed to effectively total his on a slippery interstate
> last week during that New England storm. Fishtailing and bouncing
> from an adjacent car to a jersey barrier and back, even at a really
> low speed, will tend to do that. And damn, I just got it to pass a
> state emissions test for the first time in 6 years thanks to a new
> catalytic converter I installed over Thanksgiving. The new part just
> messed up the car's karma, and it was doomed.
>
> Bob
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vtddldjlhdc5d@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hi Bob
> > Not sure if your still with me on this problem, I'm 90% sure I got the
> > problem nailed. The new distributor made the car work better, along with
> > adjusting the valve lash when the car is hot (remember I added a
thousand
> of
> > an inch to the specs on a cold engine) Drove the car at 130Kph for 20
min,
> > the exhaust manifold is dark, dark, red, any lower speed and the problem
> > doesn't occur. So for now I'll just have to take it easy on the car,
until
> I
> > can find out what is causing the slight problem at 130 Kph. I was
thinking
> > that, the carb might not be set up properly, something I overlooked.
> Anyhoo
> > I just wanted to let you know that I got most of the problem figured
out.
> > Cheers
> > Mike
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vt8n82rtbg67f3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hi Bob
> > > Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine IE
> holds
> > > vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now, still
the
> > > same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small
difference:
> > this
> > > time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the for
> the
> > > problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red
> around
> > > 100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all. tomorrow
> I'm
> > > thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting the
> valve
> > > lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine clold
> > > (added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let you
> know
> > > how that turns out
> > > Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
> > > Mike
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hey Bob
> > > > Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow
I'm
> > > going
> > > > into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for
the
> > car.
> > > > I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > The car is a manual Transmission
> > > > > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a
way
> I
> > > > > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> > > > > > Try one more test:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > > > > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > > > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > > > > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > > > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > > > > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> > > > > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> > > > > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > > > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > > > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > > > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > > > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min,
took
> a
> > > > look
> > > > > at
> > > > > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be
> red,
> > > > seems
> > > > > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust
> > manifold
> > > > > isn't
> > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my
> > > previous
> > > > > > post.
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the
> engine
> > > > speed
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is
> driving
> > > > > faster,
> > > > > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the
> car
> > is
> > > > > under
> > > > > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car
> drives
> > > > fine,
> > > > > > > good
> > > > > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem
has
> to
> > > do
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The
> > transmission
> > > > > does
> > > > > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum
> > > canister
> > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over
drive
> > > > without
> > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am?
LOL
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the
> wife
> > > to
> > > > > her
> > > > > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they
> suggested
> > > that
> > > > I
> > > > > > > call
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in
it.
> > > > > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I
> > never
> > > > got
> > > > > > > > around
> > > > > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back
to
> > you
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that
> the
> > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is
true,
> > > > except
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold).
> You
> > > > can't
> > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night.
> > SORRY
> > > I
> > > > > > > forgot
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the
floor.
> If
> > I
> > > > > don't
> > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal,
> I'll
> > > > back
> > > > > > off
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of
> speed
> > > out
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good
> > theory
> > > > you
> > > > > > > have,
> > > > > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive,
> > that,
> > > > > > pressing
> > > > > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from
> accelerating,
> > > thus
> > > > I
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the
car
> > as
> > > > > fast,
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at
> 100
> > > > plus
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on
> fire.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at
> > 100Kph.
> > > > > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a
> defective
> > > > dist
> > > > > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when
> the
> > > > > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the
engine
> > > turns,
> > > > > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of
the
> > gas
> > > > > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a
lower
> > > gear?
> > > > > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at
> > > 130Kph,
> > > > > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the
> > timing,
> > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower
speed
> > > simply
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into
> the
> > > > > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal
to
> > the
> > > > > > floor)
> > > > > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> > > > > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One
> of
> > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at
> WOT)
> > > > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running
at
> > WOT
> > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power
circuit
> > that
> > > > > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold
> vacuum
> > > > > dropping
> > > > > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich
> mixture
> > > > > results
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one
> > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly
ever
> > > > (you're
> > > > > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found
> > > various
> > > > > > > reason
> > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem
was
> > > > timing.
> > > > > > But
> > > > > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't
> > > happen
> > > > > when
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a
> > defective
> > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be
checking
> > out
> > > a
> > > > > > local
> > > > > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem
> was
> > > > burnt
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and
the
> > > > > solution
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I
looked
> at
> > > the
> > > > > > > valves,
> > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I
assumed
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > valves
> > > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark
> > plugs
> > > > are
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > tan
> > > > > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I
originally
> > set
> > > > them
> > > > > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing.
After
> I
> > > > > > > determined
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was
cold,
> I
> > > > just
> > > > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for
> the
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > being
> > > > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I
> don't
> > > > have
> > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to
the
> > hot
> > > > > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated
> > > garage
> > > > so
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is
> > running
> > > > > better
> > > > > > > > now?
> > > > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on
> Red
> > > Hot
> > > > > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this
thread
> > > near
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as
to
> > the
> > > > > cause.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing
> retarded,
> > > > burnt
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was
> > > wondering
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve
> > > > clearance
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If
> it's
> > > too
> > > > > > tight,
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to
> float
> > > (not
> > > > > > seat
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
> > > clearances,
> > > > 4
> > > > > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after
> > turning
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully
> warmed
> > up
> > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be
slightly
> > > > looser
> > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in
> > decent
> > > > > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I
> made
> > > this
> > > > > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for
> 10
> > > > miles
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started
right
> up
> > a
> > > > few
> > > > > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems
that
> I
> > > had
> > > > > set
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply
warmed
> > it
> > > up
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the
> > road
> > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum,
> it's
> > > the
> > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local
> > > > wrecker,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were
> > missing
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse
> the
> > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the
problem.
> > The
> > > > 86
> > > > > > > model
> > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a
new
> > > part
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100
Kph)
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of
> > advance
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned
HCs.
> > The
> > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate
> part
> > > for
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right
> > now).
> > > > > There
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny,
the
> > > other
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard
> for
> > a
> > > > lot
> > > > > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the
TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article
> > (V1-30-002)
> > > > > > > explaining
> > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots
of
> > > > > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for
> > > normal
> > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance
when
> > the
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from
> your
> > > > > > > description
> > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no
> suction
> > at
> > > > > > either
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle.
If
> > you
> > > > rev
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but
not
> > the
> > > > > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other
is
> > > > > therefore
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when
> the
> > > car
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple
is
> > the
> > > > one
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
> > > > > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the
one
> > > that's
> > > > > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway
> speeds.
> > > If
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
> > > temporarily
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2
> > > sensor
> > > > > > next.
> > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out
> > after
> > > > all
> > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital
> voltmeter
> > > (not
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector
> when
> > > the
> > > > > car
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and
the
> > > > > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean
> it
> > > out.
> > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine.
> Aftermarket
> > > O2
> > > > > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a
lot
> of
> > > > > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the
> > exhaust
> > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing
cleaning
> > out
> > > > the
> > > > > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca>
wrote
> in
> > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor
weights
> > > were
> > > > > > stuck,
> > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights,
> spindle
> > > and
> > > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part
of
> my
> > > > > > problem.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it
up
> > and
> > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the
vacuum
> > > > advance
> > > > > > > module
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line
> attached
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand
> > pump)
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > line
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very
> much,
> > > > maybe
> > > > > 2
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car
> is
> > > > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees
> BTDC,
> > > now
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing
light
> > > > > attached,
> > > > > > > > revved
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before
I
> > > fixed
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2
degrees
> > and
> > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took
the
> > car
> > > > for
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min,
> stopped
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over
drive
> at
> > > > > 100Kph,
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> > > > > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
the problem by now (1986-91)
I'll research the problem, check to see if the dis has enough vacuum as you
are suggesting.
BTW, the dis timing is around 6% BTDC, I left the dis timing like this
becacause I knew it to be correct. When I said that I changed the dis timing
to 12% BTDC, and got a posiative result, I changed it back to the
recommended specs 4 BTDC +-1
I found 4 degrees to be a little sluggish and 6 degrees to be right on the
money.
With the setup the way I have it right now, releasing my foot from the gas
pedal sharply doesn't produce any back fire, however I think you ment if I
had the engine set to 12 degrees BTDC. That is a good theory that you have,
I'll give it a shot. One thing I forgot to mention in my last post...I has
some white deposits on #1 and #2 spark plugs, after readjusting the valve
lash with the engine hot, the plugs are fine, funny...when I lived in
Ottawa, I worked as an auto mechanic for 7 years and have known lots of
mechnics to add a couple of thou to the specs so the can adjust valves (over
head cam) on a cold engine. This methiod has always worked great, I gess in
my case I have valve margins that are warn unevenly producing a little bit
of a gap. I'll definatly plug the air injection system and see if that makes
a difference, however it may be a few days before I get back to you as I
have to reinstall Windows XP having a internet problem and did everything
that is humanly possiable to fix the problem and no go, so gots to reinstall
the OS. BTW if you have any computer, hardware, software, networking
problems, I'm the man. My specility is operating system trouble shooting. I
worked for Compaq for 4+ years in the commercial divsion and have 10 years
of combined trouble shooting experience.
Anyhoo I'll do a few tests on the car and let ya know.
Mike
"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:br8qm6$kq9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> Thanks for the update. I've never driven my brother's 91 Fuel Inj
> Excel at that high a speed for an extended period, but I did notice
> that the exhaust manifold heat shield that I replaced a couple of
> years ago looks pretty beat up for such a relatively young part,
> which may mean that this may just be a design flaw with this
> engine.
>
> As I've said before, if you're pushing the engine to keep it going
> at 130Kph, you may not be supplying it with enough ported
> vacuum to keep the dist at its maximum advance. If you have a
> vacuum gauge, try putting it inline using a tee with the hose going
> to the dist advance, and see what the readings are at 100 vs 130.
>
> You can always advance the base timing from 12 to, say, 14 BTDC
> as long as the engine doesn't knock and performance doesn't
> suffer.
>
> I doubt there's a carb problem, but if it was running too rich at full
> throttle, it should backfire a bit when you let up sharply on the gas.
> Other than a weak power valve spring or slightly clogged secondary
> air bleeds, there's not a whole lot to adjust on a carb.
>
> And once again, check out the air injection hose to the exhaust
> manifold. Block it off, plug it, whatever, to stop any air from entering
> the manifold.
>
> And for what it's worth, I won't have a 91 Excel to work on anymore.
> My brother managed to effectively total his on a slippery interstate
> last week during that New England storm. Fishtailing and bouncing
> from an adjacent car to a jersey barrier and back, even at a really
> low speed, will tend to do that. And damn, I just got it to pass a
> state emissions test for the first time in 6 years thanks to a new
> catalytic converter I installed over Thanksgiving. The new part just
> messed up the car's karma, and it was doomed.
>
> Bob
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vtddldjlhdc5d@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hi Bob
> > Not sure if your still with me on this problem, I'm 90% sure I got the
> > problem nailed. The new distributor made the car work better, along with
> > adjusting the valve lash when the car is hot (remember I added a
thousand
> of
> > an inch to the specs on a cold engine) Drove the car at 130Kph for 20
min,
> > the exhaust manifold is dark, dark, red, any lower speed and the problem
> > doesn't occur. So for now I'll just have to take it easy on the car,
until
> I
> > can find out what is causing the slight problem at 130 Kph. I was
thinking
> > that, the carb might not be set up properly, something I overlooked.
> Anyhoo
> > I just wanted to let you know that I got most of the problem figured
out.
> > Cheers
> > Mike
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vt8n82rtbg67f3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hi Bob
> > > Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine IE
> holds
> > > vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now, still
the
> > > same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small
difference:
> > this
> > > time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the for
> the
> > > problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red
> around
> > > 100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all. tomorrow
> I'm
> > > thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting the
> valve
> > > lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine clold
> > > (added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let you
> know
> > > how that turns out
> > > Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
> > > Mike
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hey Bob
> > > > Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow
I'm
> > > going
> > > > into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for
the
> > car.
> > > > I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > The car is a manual Transmission
> > > > > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a
way
> I
> > > > > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> > > > > > Try one more test:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > > > > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > > > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > > > > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > > > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > > > > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> > > > > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> > > > > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > > > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > > > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > > > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > > > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min,
took
> a
> > > > look
> > > > > at
> > > > > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be
> red,
> > > > seems
> > > > > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust
> > manifold
> > > > > isn't
> > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my
> > > previous
> > > > > > post.
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the
> engine
> > > > speed
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is
> driving
> > > > > faster,
> > > > > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the
> car
> > is
> > > > > under
> > > > > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car
> drives
> > > > fine,
> > > > > > > good
> > > > > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem
has
> to
> > > do
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The
> > transmission
> > > > > does
> > > > > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum
> > > canister
> > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over
drive
> > > > without
> > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am?
LOL
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the
> wife
> > > to
> > > > > her
> > > > > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they
> suggested
> > > that
> > > > I
> > > > > > > call
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in
it.
> > > > > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I
> > never
> > > > got
> > > > > > > > around
> > > > > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back
to
> > you
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that
> the
> > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is
true,
> > > > except
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold).
> You
> > > > can't
> > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night.
> > SORRY
> > > I
> > > > > > > forgot
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the
floor.
> If
> > I
> > > > > don't
> > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal,
> I'll
> > > > back
> > > > > > off
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of
> speed
> > > out
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good
> > theory
> > > > you
> > > > > > > have,
> > > > > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive,
> > that,
> > > > > > pressing
> > > > > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from
> accelerating,
> > > thus
> > > > I
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the
car
> > as
> > > > > fast,
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at
> 100
> > > > plus
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on
> fire.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at
> > 100Kph.
> > > > > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a
> defective
> > > > dist
> > > > > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when
> the
> > > > > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the
engine
> > > turns,
> > > > > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of
the
> > gas
> > > > > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a
lower
> > > gear?
> > > > > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at
> > > 130Kph,
> > > > > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the
> > timing,
> > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower
speed
> > > simply
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into
> the
> > > > > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal
to
> > the
> > > > > > floor)
> > > > > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> > > > > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One
> of
> > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at
> WOT)
> > > > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running
at
> > WOT
> > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power
circuit
> > that
> > > > > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold
> vacuum
> > > > > dropping
> > > > > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich
> mixture
> > > > > results
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one
> > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly
ever
> > > > (you're
> > > > > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found
> > > various
> > > > > > > reason
> > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem
was
> > > > timing.
> > > > > > But
> > > > > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't
> > > happen
> > > > > when
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a
> > defective
> > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be
checking
> > out
> > > a
> > > > > > local
> > > > > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem
> was
> > > > burnt
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and
the
> > > > > solution
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I
looked
> at
> > > the
> > > > > > > valves,
> > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I
assumed
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > valves
> > > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark
> > plugs
> > > > are
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > tan
> > > > > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I
originally
> > set
> > > > them
> > > > > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing.
After
> I
> > > > > > > determined
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was
cold,
> I
> > > > just
> > > > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for
> the
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > being
> > > > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I
> don't
> > > > have
> > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to
the
> > hot
> > > > > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated
> > > garage
> > > > so
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is
> > running
> > > > > better
> > > > > > > > now?
> > > > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on
> Red
> > > Hot
> > > > > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this
thread
> > > near
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as
to
> > the
> > > > > cause.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing
> retarded,
> > > > burnt
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was
> > > wondering
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve
> > > > clearance
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If
> it's
> > > too
> > > > > > tight,
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to
> float
> > > (not
> > > > > > seat
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
> > > clearances,
> > > > 4
> > > > > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after
> > turning
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully
> warmed
> > up
> > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be
slightly
> > > > looser
> > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in
> > decent
> > > > > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I
> made
> > > this
> > > > > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for
> 10
> > > > miles
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started
right
> up
> > a
> > > > few
> > > > > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems
that
> I
> > > had
> > > > > set
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply
warmed
> > it
> > > up
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the
> > road
> > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum,
> it's
> > > the
> > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local
> > > > wrecker,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were
> > missing
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse
> the
> > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the
problem.
> > The
> > > > 86
> > > > > > > model
> > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a
new
> > > part
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100
Kph)
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of
> > advance
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned
HCs.
> > The
> > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate
> part
> > > for
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right
> > now).
> > > > > There
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny,
the
> > > other
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard
> for
> > a
> > > > lot
> > > > > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the
TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article
> > (V1-30-002)
> > > > > > > explaining
> > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots
of
> > > > > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for
> > > normal
> > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance
when
> > the
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from
> your
> > > > > > > description
> > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no
> suction
> > at
> > > > > > either
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle.
If
> > you
> > > > rev
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but
not
> > the
> > > > > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other
is
> > > > > therefore
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when
> the
> > > car
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple
is
> > the
> > > > one
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
> > > > > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the
one
> > > that's
> > > > > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway
> speeds.
> > > If
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
> > > temporarily
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2
> > > sensor
> > > > > > next.
> > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out
> > after
> > > > all
> > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital
> voltmeter
> > > (not
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector
> when
> > > the
> > > > > car
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and
the
> > > > > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean
> it
> > > out.
> > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine.
> Aftermarket
> > > O2
> > > > > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a
lot
> of
> > > > > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the
> > exhaust
> > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing
cleaning
> > out
> > > > the
> > > > > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca>
wrote
> in
> > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor
weights
> > > were
> > > > > > stuck,
> > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights,
> spindle
> > > and
> > > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part
of
> my
> > > > > > problem.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it
up
> > and
> > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the
vacuum
> > > > advance
> > > > > > > module
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line
> attached
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand
> > pump)
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > line
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very
> much,
> > > > maybe
> > > > > 2
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car
> is
> > > > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees
> BTDC,
> > > now
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing
light
> > > > > attached,
> > > > > > > > revved
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before
I
> > > fixed
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2
degrees
> > and
> > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took
the
> > car
> > > > for
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min,
> stopped
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over
drive
> at
> > > > > 100Kph,
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> > > > > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#40
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Well, my day job is as a systems administrator, also solving O/S
problems, so I won't have to trouble you with that sort of problem.
Personally, I'd do anything to avoid having to reinstall XP, unless
there's little or nothing in the way of software to save or reinstall.
If you do, try to start with the SP1 version right off the bat as a
fresh install if things are really that bad off.
But this is known as thread drift...
Bob
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vtkb552jfosj6a@corp.supernews.com...
> I agree it could be a design flaw, however Hyundai would have taken care
of
> the problem by now (1986-91)
> I'll research the problem, check to see if the dis has enough vacuum as
you
> are suggesting.
> BTW, the dis timing is around 6% BTDC, I left the dis timing like this
> becacause I knew it to be correct. When I said that I changed the dis
timing
> to 12% BTDC, and got a posiative result, I changed it back to the
> recommended specs 4 BTDC +-1
> I found 4 degrees to be a little sluggish and 6 degrees to be right on the
> money.
> With the setup the way I have it right now, releasing my foot from the gas
> pedal sharply doesn't produce any back fire, however I think you ment if I
> had the engine set to 12 degrees BTDC. That is a good theory that you
have,
> I'll give it a shot. One thing I forgot to mention in my last post...I has
> some white deposits on #1 and #2 spark plugs, after readjusting the valve
> lash with the engine hot, the plugs are fine, funny...when I lived in
> Ottawa, I worked as an auto mechanic for 7 years and have known lots of
> mechnics to add a couple of thou to the specs so the can adjust valves
(over
> head cam) on a cold engine. This methiod has always worked great, I gess
in
> my case I have valve margins that are warn unevenly producing a little bit
> of a gap. I'll definatly plug the air injection system and see if that
makes
> a difference, however it may be a few days before I get back to you as I
> have to reinstall Windows XP having a internet problem and did everything
> that is humanly possiable to fix the problem and no go, so gots to
reinstall
> the OS. BTW if you have any computer, hardware, software, networking
> problems, I'm the man. My specility is operating system trouble shooting.
I
> worked for Compaq for 4+ years in the commercial divsion and have 10 years
> of combined trouble shooting experience.
> Anyhoo I'll do a few tests on the car and let ya know.
>
> Mike
>
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:br8qm6$kq9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > Thanks for the update. I've never driven my brother's 91 Fuel Inj
> > Excel at that high a speed for an extended period, but I did notice
> > that the exhaust manifold heat shield that I replaced a couple of
> > years ago looks pretty beat up for such a relatively young part,
> > which may mean that this may just be a design flaw with this
> > engine.
> >
> > As I've said before, if you're pushing the engine to keep it going
> > at 130Kph, you may not be supplying it with enough ported
> > vacuum to keep the dist at its maximum advance. If you have a
> > vacuum gauge, try putting it inline using a tee with the hose going
> > to the dist advance, and see what the readings are at 100 vs 130.
> >
> > You can always advance the base timing from 12 to, say, 14 BTDC
> > as long as the engine doesn't knock and performance doesn't
> > suffer.
> >
> > I doubt there's a carb problem, but if it was running too rich at full
> > throttle, it should backfire a bit when you let up sharply on the gas.
> > Other than a weak power valve spring or slightly clogged secondary
> > air bleeds, there's not a whole lot to adjust on a carb.
> >
> > And once again, check out the air injection hose to the exhaust
> > manifold. Block it off, plug it, whatever, to stop any air from entering
> > the manifold.
> >
> > And for what it's worth, I won't have a 91 Excel to work on anymore.
> > My brother managed to effectively total his on a slippery interstate
> > last week during that New England storm. Fishtailing and bouncing
> > from an adjacent car to a jersey barrier and back, even at a really
> > low speed, will tend to do that. And damn, I just got it to pass a
> > state emissions test for the first time in 6 years thanks to a new
> > catalytic converter I installed over Thanksgiving. The new part just
> > messed up the car's karma, and it was doomed.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vtddldjlhdc5d@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hi Bob
> > > Not sure if your still with me on this problem, I'm 90% sure I got the
> > > problem nailed. The new distributor made the car work better, along
with
> > > adjusting the valve lash when the car is hot (remember I added a
> thousand
> > of
> > > an inch to the specs on a cold engine) Drove the car at 130Kph for 20
> min,
> > > the exhaust manifold is dark, dark, red, any lower speed and the
problem
> > > doesn't occur. So for now I'll just have to take it easy on the car,
> until
> > I
> > > can find out what is causing the slight problem at 130 Kph. I was
> thinking
> > > that, the carb might not be set up properly, something I overlooked.
> > Anyhoo
> > > I just wanted to let you know that I got most of the problem figured
> out.
> > > Cheers
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vt8n82rtbg67f3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hi Bob
> > > > Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine IE
> > holds
> > > > vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now, still
> the
> > > > same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small
> difference:
> > > this
> > > > time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the
for
> > the
> > > > problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red
> > around
> > > > 100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all.
tomorrow
> > I'm
> > > > thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting the
> > valve
> > > > lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine
clold
> > > > (added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let you
> > know
> > > > how that turns out
> > > > Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
> > > > Mike
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow
> I'm
> > > > going
> > > > > into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for
> the
> > > car.
> > > > > I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > The car is a manual Transmission
> > > > > > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a
> way
> > I
> > > > > > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the
key.
> > > > > > > Try one more test:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > > > > > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > > > > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > > > > > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > > > > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > > > > > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it
should
> > > > > > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red
glow,
> > > > > > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > > > > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > > > > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > > > > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > > > > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min,
> took
> > a
> > > > > look
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't
be
> > red,
> > > > > seems
> > > > > > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust
> > > manifold
> > > > > > isn't
> > > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on
my
> > > > previous
> > > > > > > post.
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the
> > engine
> > > > > speed
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is
> > driving
> > > > > > faster,
> > > > > > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when
the
> > car
> > > is
> > > > > > under
> > > > > > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car
> > drives
> > > > > fine,
> > > > > > > > good
> > > > > > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem
> has
> > to
> > > > do
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The
> > > transmission
> > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the
vacuum
> > > > canister
> > > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over
> drive
> > > > > without
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am?
> LOL
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring
the
> > wife
> > > > to
> > > > > > her
> > > > > > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they
> > suggested
> > > > that
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > call
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in
> it.
> > > > > > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also,
I
> > > never
> > > > > got
> > > > > > > > > around
> > > > > > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back
> to
> > > you
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said
that
> > the
> > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is
> true,
> > > > > except
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the
manifold).
> > You
> > > > > can't
> > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at
night.
> > > SORRY
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > forgot
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the
> floor.
> > If
> > > I
> > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas
pedal,
> > I'll
> > > > > back
> > > > > > > off
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of
> > speed
> > > > out
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good
> > > theory
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > have,
> > > > > > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over
drive,
> > > that,
> > > > > > > pressing
> > > > > > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from
> > accelerating,
> > > > thus
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the
> car
> > > as
> > > > > > fast,
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive
at
> > 100
> > > > > plus
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on
> > fire.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at
> > > 100Kph.
> > > > > > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a
> > defective
> > > > > dist
> > > > > > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough
when
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the
> engine
> > > > turns,
> > > > > > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of
> the
> > > gas
> > > > > > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a
> lower
> > > > gear?
> > > > > > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're
at
> > > > 130Kph,
> > > > > > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the
> > > timing,
> > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower
> speed
> > > > simply
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's
into
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle
(pedal
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > > floor)
> > > > > > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when
you're
> > > > > > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine.
One
> > of
> > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at
> > WOT)
> > > > > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running
> at
> > > WOT
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power
> circuit
> > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold
> > vacuum
> > > > > > dropping
> > > > > > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich
> > mixture
> > > > > > results
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does
one
> > > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly
> ever
> > > > > (you're
> > > > > > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and
found
> > > > various
> > > > > > > > reason
> > > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem
> was
> > > > > timing.
> > > > > > > But
> > > > > > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem
doesn't
> > > > happen
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a
> > > defective
> > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be
> checking
> > > out
> > > > a
> > > > > > > local
> > > > > > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the
problem
> > was
> > > > > burnt
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and
> the
> > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I
> looked
> > at
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > valves,
> > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I
> assumed
> > > that
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > valves
> > > > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the
spark
> > > plugs
> > > > > are
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > tan
> > > > > > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I
> originally
> > > set
> > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing.
> After
> > I
> > > > > > > > determined
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was
> cold,
> > I
> > > > > just
> > > > > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate
for
> > the
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > being
> > > > > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I
> > don't
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to
> the
> > > hot
> > > > > > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's
heated
> > > > garage
> > > > > so
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is
> > > running
> > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > now?
> > > > > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search
on
> > Red
> > > > Hot
> > > > > > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this
> thread
> > > > near
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > cause.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing
> > retarded,
> > > > > burnt
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was
> > > > wondering
> > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the
valve
> > > > > clearance
> > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If
> > it's
> > > > too
> > > > > > > tight,
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to
> > float
> > > > (not
> > > > > > > seat
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
> > > > clearances,
> > > > > 4
> > > > > > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after
> > > turning
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully
> > warmed
> > > up
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be
> slightly
> > > > > looser
> > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were
in
> > > decent
> > > > > > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I
> > made
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly
for
> > 10
> > > > > miles
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started
> right
> > up
> > > a
> > > > > few
> > > > > > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems
> that
> > I
> > > > had
> > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply
> warmed
> > > it
> > > > up
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on
the
> > > road
> > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote
in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold
vacuum,
> > it's
> > > > the
> > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the
local
> > > > > wrecker,
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were
> > > missing
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to
reverse
> > the
> > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the
> problem.
> > > The
> > > > > 86
> > > > > > > > model
> > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a
> new
> > > > part
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100
> Kph)
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote
in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of
> > > advance
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned
> HCs.
> > > The
> > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a
separate
> > part
> > > > for
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down
right
> > > now).
> > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny,
> the
> > > > other
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local
junkyard
> > for
> > > a
> > > > > lot
> > > > > > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the
> TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article
> > > (V1-30-002)
> > > > > > > > explaining
> > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with
lots
> of
> > > > > > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is
for
> > > > normal
> > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance
> when
> > > the
> > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell
from
> > your
> > > > > > > > description
> > > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no
> > suction
> > > at
> > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at
idle.
> If
> > > you
> > > > > rev
> > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but
> not
> > > the
> > > > > > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other
> is
> > > > > > therefore
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum
when
> > the
> > > > car
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple
> is
> > > the
> > > > > one
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have
cold
> > > > > > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the
> one
> > > > that's
> > > > > > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway
> > speeds.
> > > > If
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
> > > > temporarily
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the
O2
> > > > sensor
> > > > > > > next.
> > > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt
out
> > > after
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital
> > voltmeter
> > > > (not
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector
> > when
> > > > the
> > > > > > car
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and
> the
> > > > > > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to
lean
> > it
> > > > out.
> > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine.
> > Aftermarket
> > > > O2
> > > > > > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a
> lot
> > of
> > > > > > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the
> > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing
> cleaning
> > > out
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca>
> wrote
> > in
> > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor
> weights
> > > > were
> > > > > > > stuck,
> > > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights,
> > spindle
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part
> of
> > my
> > > > > > > problem.
> > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it
> up
> > > and
> > > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the
> vacuum
> > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > module
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line
> > attached
> > > to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a
hand
> > > pump)
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > line
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very
> > much,
> > > > > maybe
> > > > > > 2
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The
car
> > is
> > > > > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees
> > BTDC,
> > > > now
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing
> light
> > > > > > attached,
> > > > > > > > > revved
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly.
Before
> I
> > > > fixed
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2
> degrees
> > > and
> > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took
> the
> > > car
> > > > > for
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min,
> > stopped
> > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over
> drive
> > at
> > > > > > 100Kph,
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled,
any
> > > > > > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
problems, so I won't have to trouble you with that sort of problem.
Personally, I'd do anything to avoid having to reinstall XP, unless
there's little or nothing in the way of software to save or reinstall.
If you do, try to start with the SP1 version right off the bat as a
fresh install if things are really that bad off.
But this is known as thread drift...
Bob
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vtkb552jfosj6a@corp.supernews.com...
> I agree it could be a design flaw, however Hyundai would have taken care
of
> the problem by now (1986-91)
> I'll research the problem, check to see if the dis has enough vacuum as
you
> are suggesting.
> BTW, the dis timing is around 6% BTDC, I left the dis timing like this
> becacause I knew it to be correct. When I said that I changed the dis
timing
> to 12% BTDC, and got a posiative result, I changed it back to the
> recommended specs 4 BTDC +-1
> I found 4 degrees to be a little sluggish and 6 degrees to be right on the
> money.
> With the setup the way I have it right now, releasing my foot from the gas
> pedal sharply doesn't produce any back fire, however I think you ment if I
> had the engine set to 12 degrees BTDC. That is a good theory that you
have,
> I'll give it a shot. One thing I forgot to mention in my last post...I has
> some white deposits on #1 and #2 spark plugs, after readjusting the valve
> lash with the engine hot, the plugs are fine, funny...when I lived in
> Ottawa, I worked as an auto mechanic for 7 years and have known lots of
> mechnics to add a couple of thou to the specs so the can adjust valves
(over
> head cam) on a cold engine. This methiod has always worked great, I gess
in
> my case I have valve margins that are warn unevenly producing a little bit
> of a gap. I'll definatly plug the air injection system and see if that
makes
> a difference, however it may be a few days before I get back to you as I
> have to reinstall Windows XP having a internet problem and did everything
> that is humanly possiable to fix the problem and no go, so gots to
reinstall
> the OS. BTW if you have any computer, hardware, software, networking
> problems, I'm the man. My specility is operating system trouble shooting.
I
> worked for Compaq for 4+ years in the commercial divsion and have 10 years
> of combined trouble shooting experience.
> Anyhoo I'll do a few tests on the car and let ya know.
>
> Mike
>
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:br8qm6$kq9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > Thanks for the update. I've never driven my brother's 91 Fuel Inj
> > Excel at that high a speed for an extended period, but I did notice
> > that the exhaust manifold heat shield that I replaced a couple of
> > years ago looks pretty beat up for such a relatively young part,
> > which may mean that this may just be a design flaw with this
> > engine.
> >
> > As I've said before, if you're pushing the engine to keep it going
> > at 130Kph, you may not be supplying it with enough ported
> > vacuum to keep the dist at its maximum advance. If you have a
> > vacuum gauge, try putting it inline using a tee with the hose going
> > to the dist advance, and see what the readings are at 100 vs 130.
> >
> > You can always advance the base timing from 12 to, say, 14 BTDC
> > as long as the engine doesn't knock and performance doesn't
> > suffer.
> >
> > I doubt there's a carb problem, but if it was running too rich at full
> > throttle, it should backfire a bit when you let up sharply on the gas.
> > Other than a weak power valve spring or slightly clogged secondary
> > air bleeds, there's not a whole lot to adjust on a carb.
> >
> > And once again, check out the air injection hose to the exhaust
> > manifold. Block it off, plug it, whatever, to stop any air from entering
> > the manifold.
> >
> > And for what it's worth, I won't have a 91 Excel to work on anymore.
> > My brother managed to effectively total his on a slippery interstate
> > last week during that New England storm. Fishtailing and bouncing
> > from an adjacent car to a jersey barrier and back, even at a really
> > low speed, will tend to do that. And damn, I just got it to pass a
> > state emissions test for the first time in 6 years thanks to a new
> > catalytic converter I installed over Thanksgiving. The new part just
> > messed up the car's karma, and it was doomed.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vtddldjlhdc5d@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hi Bob
> > > Not sure if your still with me on this problem, I'm 90% sure I got the
> > > problem nailed. The new distributor made the car work better, along
with
> > > adjusting the valve lash when the car is hot (remember I added a
> thousand
> > of
> > > an inch to the specs on a cold engine) Drove the car at 130Kph for 20
> min,
> > > the exhaust manifold is dark, dark, red, any lower speed and the
problem
> > > doesn't occur. So for now I'll just have to take it easy on the car,
> until
> > I
> > > can find out what is causing the slight problem at 130 Kph. I was
> thinking
> > > that, the carb might not be set up properly, something I overlooked.
> > Anyhoo
> > > I just wanted to let you know that I got most of the problem figured
> out.
> > > Cheers
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vt8n82rtbg67f3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hi Bob
> > > > Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine IE
> > holds
> > > > vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now, still
> the
> > > > same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small
> difference:
> > > this
> > > > time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the
for
> > the
> > > > problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red
> > around
> > > > 100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all.
tomorrow
> > I'm
> > > > thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting the
> > valve
> > > > lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine
clold
> > > > (added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let you
> > know
> > > > how that turns out
> > > > Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
> > > > Mike
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow
> I'm
> > > > going
> > > > > into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for
> the
> > > car.
> > > > > I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > The car is a manual Transmission
> > > > > > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a
> way
> > I
> > > > > > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the
key.
> > > > > > > Try one more test:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > > > > > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > > > > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > > > > > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > > > > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > > > > > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it
should
> > > > > > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red
glow,
> > > > > > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > > > > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > > > > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > > > > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > > > > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min,
> took
> > a
> > > > > look
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't
be
> > red,
> > > > > seems
> > > > > > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust
> > > manifold
> > > > > > isn't
> > > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on
my
> > > > previous
> > > > > > > post.
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the
> > engine
> > > > > speed
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is
> > driving
> > > > > > faster,
> > > > > > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when
the
> > car
> > > is
> > > > > > under
> > > > > > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car
> > drives
> > > > > fine,
> > > > > > > > good
> > > > > > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem
> has
> > to
> > > > do
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The
> > > transmission
> > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the
vacuum
> > > > canister
> > > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over
> drive
> > > > > without
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am?
> LOL
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring
the
> > wife
> > > > to
> > > > > > her
> > > > > > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they
> > suggested
> > > > that
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > call
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in
> it.
> > > > > > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also,
I
> > > never
> > > > > got
> > > > > > > > > around
> > > > > > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back
> to
> > > you
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said
that
> > the
> > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is
> true,
> > > > > except
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the
manifold).
> > You
> > > > > can't
> > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at
night.
> > > SORRY
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > forgot
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the
> floor.
> > If
> > > I
> > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas
pedal,
> > I'll
> > > > > back
> > > > > > > off
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of
> > speed
> > > > out
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good
> > > theory
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > have,
> > > > > > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over
drive,
> > > that,
> > > > > > > pressing
> > > > > > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from
> > accelerating,
> > > > thus
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the
> car
> > > as
> > > > > > fast,
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive
at
> > 100
> > > > > plus
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on
> > fire.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at
> > > 100Kph.
> > > > > > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a
> > defective
> > > > > dist
> > > > > > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough
when
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the
> engine
> > > > turns,
> > > > > > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of
> the
> > > gas
> > > > > > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a
> lower
> > > > gear?
> > > > > > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're
at
> > > > 130Kph,
> > > > > > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the
> > > timing,
> > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower
> speed
> > > > simply
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's
into
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle
(pedal
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > > floor)
> > > > > > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when
you're
> > > > > > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine.
One
> > of
> > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at
> > WOT)
> > > > > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running
> at
> > > WOT
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power
> circuit
> > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold
> > vacuum
> > > > > > dropping
> > > > > > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich
> > mixture
> > > > > > results
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does
one
> > > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly
> ever
> > > > > (you're
> > > > > > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and
found
> > > > various
> > > > > > > > reason
> > > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem
> was
> > > > > timing.
> > > > > > > But
> > > > > > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem
doesn't
> > > > happen
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a
> > > defective
> > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be
> checking
> > > out
> > > > a
> > > > > > > local
> > > > > > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the
problem
> > was
> > > > > burnt
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and
> the
> > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I
> looked
> > at
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > valves,
> > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I
> assumed
> > > that
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > valves
> > > > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the
spark
> > > plugs
> > > > > are
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > tan
> > > > > > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I
> originally
> > > set
> > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing.
> After
> > I
> > > > > > > > determined
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was
> cold,
> > I
> > > > > just
> > > > > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate
for
> > the
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > being
> > > > > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I
> > don't
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to
> the
> > > hot
> > > > > > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's
heated
> > > > garage
> > > > > so
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is
> > > running
> > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > now?
> > > > > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search
on
> > Red
> > > > Hot
> > > > > > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this
> thread
> > > > near
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > cause.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing
> > retarded,
> > > > > burnt
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was
> > > > wondering
> > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the
valve
> > > > > clearance
> > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If
> > it's
> > > > too
> > > > > > > tight,
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to
> > float
> > > > (not
> > > > > > > seat
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
> > > > clearances,
> > > > > 4
> > > > > > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after
> > > turning
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully
> > warmed
> > > up
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be
> slightly
> > > > > looser
> > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were
in
> > > decent
> > > > > > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I
> > made
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly
for
> > 10
> > > > > miles
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started
> right
> > up
> > > a
> > > > > few
> > > > > > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems
> that
> > I
> > > > had
> > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply
> warmed
> > > it
> > > > up
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on
the
> > > road
> > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote
in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold
vacuum,
> > it's
> > > > the
> > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the
local
> > > > > wrecker,
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were
> > > missing
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to
reverse
> > the
> > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the
> problem.
> > > The
> > > > > 86
> > > > > > > > model
> > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a
> new
> > > > part
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100
> Kph)
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote
in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of
> > > advance
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned
> HCs.
> > > The
> > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a
separate
> > part
> > > > for
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down
right
> > > now).
> > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny,
> the
> > > > other
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local
junkyard
> > for
> > > a
> > > > > lot
> > > > > > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the
> TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article
> > > (V1-30-002)
> > > > > > > > explaining
> > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with
lots
> of
> > > > > > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is
for
> > > > normal
> > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance
> when
> > > the
> > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell
from
> > your
> > > > > > > > description
> > > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no
> > suction
> > > at
> > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at
idle.
> If
> > > you
> > > > > rev
> > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but
> not
> > > the
> > > > > > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other
> is
> > > > > > therefore
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum
when
> > the
> > > > car
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple
> is
> > > the
> > > > > one
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have
cold
> > > > > > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the
> one
> > > > that's
> > > > > > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway
> > speeds.
> > > > If
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
> > > > temporarily
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the
O2
> > > > sensor
> > > > > > > next.
> > > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt
out
> > > after
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital
> > voltmeter
> > > > (not
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector
> > when
> > > > the
> > > > > > car
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and
> the
> > > > > > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to
lean
> > it
> > > > out.
> > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine.
> > Aftermarket
> > > > O2
> > > > > > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a
> lot
> > of
> > > > > > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the
> > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing
> cleaning
> > > out
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca>
> wrote
> > in
> > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor
> weights
> > > > were
> > > > > > > stuck,
> > > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights,
> > spindle
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part
> of
> > my
> > > > > > > problem.
> > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it
> up
> > > and
> > > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the
> vacuum
> > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > module
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line
> > attached
> > > to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a
hand
> > > pump)
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > line
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very
> > much,
> > > > > maybe
> > > > > > 2
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The
car
> > is
> > > > > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees
> > BTDC,
> > > > now
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing
> light
> > > > > > attached,
> > > > > > > > > revved
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly.
Before
> I
> > > > fixed
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2
> degrees
> > > and
> > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took
> the
> > > car
> > > > > for
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min,
> > stopped
> > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over
> drive
> > at
> > > > > > 100Kph,
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled,
any
> > > > > > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#41
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:<bpd6a9$8r9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...
> The thing with most head gaskets is that on many engines, you
> *can* put them on upside down (flipped left to right) and the bolt
> holes still line up, but the coolant passages don't, so you have
> partially blocked passages and an overheated head.
>
> The idle is a bit high (s.b. 750±100) . Does it refuse to idle at
> lower speeds?
>
> I couldn't find the online manual for your Excel at
> www.hmaservice.com/webtech , the closest I could get is 1988.
> Do you have a feedback carb and an O2 sensor? If you do and
> your O2 sensor is dead, the ECU might think that it needs to
> increase the O2 by leaning out the mixture as much as it can,
> but not so much that you'd notice a performance problem at
> highway speeds.
>
> Looking at the 1988 manual, your secondary air control valve is
> supposed to let air into the exhaust manfold when the engine is
> warming up, then it switches to sending air downstream to the
> 2nd cat under the car. If this valve is burnt out or always open,
> air would always be going into the manifold and causing the
> red-hot condition. Try plugging the hose from the valve to the
> manifold and see if things improve. There should also be some
> sort of check valve where the hose meets the manifold to
> prevent hot exhaust from going back thru the hose and burning
> up the valve.
>
> The cliff is starting to sound much better.
>
> Bob
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vrgsejs3al6816@corp.supernews.com...
> > Yeppers I'm stumped to
> > Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire LOL
> > The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct. The spark
> > plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection system (air
> jet
> > valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling fine so I'll
> > assume for now the carb is ok.
> > what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM when the
> car
> > is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car runs like
>
> > to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then I'll do as
> you
> > suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket wasn't put
> on
> > back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If I put the
> > head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG passage? I was
> > under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake manifold
> > through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to feed 2
> feet
> > of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think that is far
> > enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it I put it
> > back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow. I was also
> > thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would give me a
> > better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if nessary.
> >
> > Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem, then I think
> > I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : (
> > Bye for now
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot
> > > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to
> > > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough
> > > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is running
> > > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway
> > > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell
> > > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too rich
> > > one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be really,
> > > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on
> > > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you
> > > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or
> > > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires.
> > >
> > > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On some
> > > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter without a
> > > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to
> > > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt or
> > > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned gas
> > > may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the manifold.
> > >
> > > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild kit and
> have
> > > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back together.
> > > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed.
> > >
> > > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than brake
> > > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake cleaner
> > > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.)
> > >
> > > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should be
> > > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in more
> > > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to
> 1100-1300
> > > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you want
> > > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve
> removed.
> > > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb cleaner into
> the
> > > passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it breaks thru
> > > the remaining blockage.
> > >
> > > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that when you
> > > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the correct side
> > > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are back where
> > > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago where
> > > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the engine
> > > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hi Bob
> > > > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the exhaust
> manifold,
> > > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong part as I
> thought
> > > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as you
> susggested,
> > > > except I didin't decarbonize the head.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up with oil
> > > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket for it.
> When
> > > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was able to
> swish
> > > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for recycled
> exhaust.
> > > >
> > > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a used
> > > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about 2 and a
> half
> > > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards the
> carb,
> was
> > > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray some
> break
> > > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole thing
> back
> > > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the same
> problem,
> > > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I revved
> the
> > > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the ERG is
> open
> to
> > > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the idle
> changes
> > > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it should.
> Any
> > > > other suggestions?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is intact),
> > > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the head may
> > > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. Open the
> > > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is idling, and
> > > > > see if it stalls (it should).
> > > > >
> > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the temps in
> the
> > > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the
> > > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the temp
> > > > > of the exhaust manifold.
> > > > >
> > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a
> screwdriver.
> > > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin screwdriver
> > > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a
> > > > > variable-speed drill.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying water
> > > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use something like a
> > > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb or
> you'll
> > > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should lower the
> > > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to carbon
> > > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe, but
> eventually
> > > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a little
> white
> > > > > steam.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in it and it
> was
> > > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust manifold went
> down
> > > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the coolant
> temp
> went
> > > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I suspect that
> this
> is
> > > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the head. Now
> why
> is
> this
> > > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn crankshaft
> sprocket
> as
> > > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken the
> spocket
> off...it
> > > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's not
> worn.
> Any
> > > > > > other suggestion?
> > > > > > Thanks in advance.
> > > > > > Mike : )
> > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Hi PPL
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets yellow
> hot
> and
> is
> > > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only happens when
> the
> car
> is
> > > > > > > > driven
> > > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I suspected
> was
> a
> clogged
> > > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust
> monifold.
> Ripped
> out
> > > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red hot. The
> car
> was
> > > > > > > > running rough
> > > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the crankshaft and
> camshaft
> > > > > > > > timing, set the
> > > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), the car
> idles
> better
> > > > > > > > now but the
> > > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of plugs,
> no
> go.
> Made
> > > > > > > > sure the choke was opening,
> > > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines and
> replaced
> the
> ones
> > > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head gasket, I
> retorqued
> the
> > > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct (suspected
> that
> the
> > > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go. Replaced
> the
> timing
> > > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the crankshaft
> and
> camshaft
> are
> > > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back
> (counter
> clockwise)
> > > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold doesn't get
> red
> hot
> at
> > > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem is that
> the
> idel
> is
> a
> > > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean by
> timing
> range
> is:
> > > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30 degrees
> BTDC
> to
> TDC,
> > > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to move the
> crankshaft
> > > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that the
> crankshaft
> and
> > > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing marks. Does
> anybody
> any
> > > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If you open
> the
> valve
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover the
> vacuum
> nipple
> > > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with the
> engine
> running
> > > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or stumble/stall.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into the
> exhaust
> manifold
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be shot and
> it's
> pumping
> > > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is too rich
> (misfire),
> > > > > > > this would
> > > > > > > cause the glowing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you removed
> it?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
Im having somewhat the same problem with my chevy cavalier 85, 2.0
liter. The exhaust manifold lights up bright red after running for a
few moments. My friend had told me to un-hook the catalytic converter
from the pipe and see if it would get hot. When i looked under the car
i didnt see the catalytic converter. I looked up a picture to make
sure i knew what i was looking for, but found nothing. Timing was
right on and everything, it doesnt seem that the timing chain could
have slipped at all either. Im still stuck on this whole thing.
> The thing with most head gaskets is that on many engines, you
> *can* put them on upside down (flipped left to right) and the bolt
> holes still line up, but the coolant passages don't, so you have
> partially blocked passages and an overheated head.
>
> The idle is a bit high (s.b. 750±100) . Does it refuse to idle at
> lower speeds?
>
> I couldn't find the online manual for your Excel at
> www.hmaservice.com/webtech , the closest I could get is 1988.
> Do you have a feedback carb and an O2 sensor? If you do and
> your O2 sensor is dead, the ECU might think that it needs to
> increase the O2 by leaning out the mixture as much as it can,
> but not so much that you'd notice a performance problem at
> highway speeds.
>
> Looking at the 1988 manual, your secondary air control valve is
> supposed to let air into the exhaust manfold when the engine is
> warming up, then it switches to sending air downstream to the
> 2nd cat under the car. If this valve is burnt out or always open,
> air would always be going into the manifold and causing the
> red-hot condition. Try plugging the hose from the valve to the
> manifold and see if things improve. There should also be some
> sort of check valve where the hose meets the manifold to
> prevent hot exhaust from going back thru the hose and burning
> up the valve.
>
> The cliff is starting to sound much better.
>
> Bob
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vrgsejs3al6816@corp.supernews.com...
> > Yeppers I'm stumped to
> > Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire LOL
> > The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct. The spark
> > plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection system (air
> jet
> > valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling fine so I'll
> > assume for now the carb is ok.
> > what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM when the
> car
> > is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car runs like
>
> > to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then I'll do as
> you
> > suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket wasn't put
> on
> > back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If I put the
> > head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG passage? I was
> > under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake manifold
> > through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to feed 2
> feet
> > of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think that is far
> > enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it I put it
> > back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow. I was also
> > thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would give me a
> > better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if nessary.
> >
> > Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem, then I think
> > I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : (
> > Bye for now
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot
> > > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to
> > > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough
> > > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is running
> > > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway
> > > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell
> > > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too rich
> > > one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be really,
> > > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on
> > > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you
> > > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or
> > > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires.
> > >
> > > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On some
> > > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter without a
> > > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to
> > > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt or
> > > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned gas
> > > may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the manifold.
> > >
> > > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild kit and
> have
> > > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back together.
> > > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed.
> > >
> > > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than brake
> > > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake cleaner
> > > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.)
> > >
> > > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should be
> > > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in more
> > > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to
> 1100-1300
> > > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you want
> > > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve
> removed.
> > > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb cleaner into
> the
> > > passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it breaks thru
> > > the remaining blockage.
> > >
> > > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that when you
> > > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the correct side
> > > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are back where
> > > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago where
> > > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the engine
> > > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hi Bob
> > > > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the exhaust
> manifold,
> > > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong part as I
> thought
> > > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as you
> susggested,
> > > > except I didin't decarbonize the head.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up with oil
> > > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket for it.
> When
> > > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was able to
> swish
> > > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for recycled
> exhaust.
> > > >
> > > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a used
> > > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about 2 and a
> half
> > > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards the
> carb,
> was
> > > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray some
> break
> > > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole thing
> back
> > > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the same
> problem,
> > > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I revved
> the
> > > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the ERG is
> open
> to
> > > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the idle
> changes
> > > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it should.
> Any
> > > > other suggestions?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is intact),
> > > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the head may
> > > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. Open the
> > > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is idling, and
> > > > > see if it stalls (it should).
> > > > >
> > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the temps in
> the
> > > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the
> > > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the temp
> > > > > of the exhaust manifold.
> > > > >
> > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a
> screwdriver.
> > > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin screwdriver
> > > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a
> > > > > variable-speed drill.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying water
> > > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use something like a
> > > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb or
> you'll
> > > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should lower the
> > > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to carbon
> > > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe, but
> eventually
> > > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a little
> white
> > > > > steam.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in it and it
> was
> > > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust manifold went
> down
> > > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the coolant
> temp
> went
> > > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I suspect that
> this
> is
> > > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the head. Now
> why
> is
> this
> > > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn crankshaft
> sprocket
> as
> > > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken the
> spocket
> off...it
> > > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's not
> worn.
> Any
> > > > > > other suggestion?
> > > > > > Thanks in advance.
> > > > > > Mike : )
> > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Hi PPL
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets yellow
> hot
> and
> is
> > > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only happens when
> the
> car
> is
> > > > > > > > driven
> > > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I suspected
> was
> a
> clogged
> > > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust
> monifold.
> Ripped
> out
> > > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red hot. The
> car
> was
> > > > > > > > running rough
> > > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the crankshaft and
> camshaft
> > > > > > > > timing, set the
> > > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), the car
> idles
> better
> > > > > > > > now but the
> > > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of plugs,
> no
> go.
> Made
> > > > > > > > sure the choke was opening,
> > > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines and
> replaced
> the
> ones
> > > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head gasket, I
> retorqued
> the
> > > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct (suspected
> that
> the
> > > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go. Replaced
> the
> timing
> > > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the crankshaft
> and
> camshaft
> are
> > > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back
> (counter
> clockwise)
> > > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold doesn't get
> red
> hot
> at
> > > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem is that
> the
> idel
> is
> a
> > > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean by
> timing
> range
> is:
> > > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30 degrees
> BTDC
> to
> TDC,
> > > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to move the
> crankshaft
> > > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that the
> crankshaft
> and
> > > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing marks. Does
> anybody
> any
> > > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If you open
> the
> valve
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover the
> vacuum
> nipple
> > > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with the
> engine
> running
> > > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or stumble/stall.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into the
> exhaust
> manifold
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be shot and
> it's
> pumping
> > > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is too rich
> (misfire),
> > > > > > > this would
> > > > > > > cause the glowing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you removed
> it?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
Im having somewhat the same problem with my chevy cavalier 85, 2.0
liter. The exhaust manifold lights up bright red after running for a
few moments. My friend had told me to un-hook the catalytic converter
from the pipe and see if it would get hot. When i looked under the car
i didnt see the catalytic converter. I looked up a picture to make
sure i knew what i was looking for, but found nothing. Timing was
right on and everything, it doesnt seem that the timing chain could
have slipped at all either. Im still stuck on this whole thing.
#42
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
"Niccko" <Niccko_tyme@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:206c1f50.0312141958.6f4f838d@posting.google.c om...
>
> Im having somewhat the same problem with my chevy cavalier 85, 2.0
> liter. The exhaust manifold lights up bright red after running for a
> few moments. My friend had told me to un-hook the catalytic converter
> from the pipe and see if it would get hot. When i looked under the car
> i didnt see the catalytic converter. I looked up a picture to make
> sure i knew what i was looking for, but found nothing. Timing was
> right on and everything, it doesnt seem that the timing chain could
> have slipped at all either. Im still stuck on this whole thing.
The cat is a muffler-shaped device located on the exhaust pipe towards
the front of the car, usually about where the driver sits. If you follow
the exhaust pipe from the engine to the back of the car, you should
see something muffler-like before you get to the actual muffler at the
back of the car. But removing the cat won't solve your problem, and
it's not easily removed on most cars.
If you've been following this thread, you'll see that the red glow is the
result of continued combustion in the manifold. This can be caused by
many things, such as base timing being off, not enough advance at
higher rpms, too rich a mixture, or an air leak into the manifold. If the
glow is that obvious and you really don't know what to do, take it to
your favorite mechanic and let him have a go at it.
#43
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:<brk550$n7h$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...
> "Niccko" <Niccko_tyme@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:206c1f50.0312141958.6f4f838d@posting.google.c om...
> >
> > Im having somewhat the same problem with my chevy cavalier 85, 2.0
> > liter. The exhaust manifold lights up bright red after running for a
> > few moments. My friend had told me to un-hook the catalytic converter
> > from the pipe and see if it would get hot. When i looked under the car
> > i didnt see the catalytic converter. I looked up a picture to make
> > sure i knew what i was looking for, but found nothing. Timing was
> > right on and everything, it doesnt seem that the timing chain could
> > have slipped at all either. Im still stuck on this whole thing.
>
> The cat is a muffler-shaped device located on the exhaust pipe towards
> the front of the car, usually about where the driver sits. If you follow
> the exhaust pipe from the engine to the back of the car, you should
> see something muffler-like before you get to the actual muffler at the
> back of the car. But removing the cat won't solve your problem, and
> it's not easily removed on most cars.
>
> If you've been following this thread, you'll see that the red glow is the
> result of continued combustion in the manifold. This can be caused by
> many things, such as base timing being off, not enough advance at
> higher rpms, too rich a mixture, or an air leak into the manifold. If the
> glow is that obvious and you really don't know what to do, take it to
> your favorite mechanic and let him have a go at it.
Awesome advice there, i think that you have shinned the light upon me!
i veleive the problem happend after i did a tune up, but i changed it
back to where everything was set before the tune up (including putting
the old cables, cap and rotor on) seems to be really sluggish, i cant
get it to go over 15 mph in first, and it gets up to 25 in a five mile
stretch. ive noticed that it could just possibly be a leak then. ill
take a look at everything again, Possibly check if im runnin too rich.
> "Niccko" <Niccko_tyme@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:206c1f50.0312141958.6f4f838d@posting.google.c om...
> >
> > Im having somewhat the same problem with my chevy cavalier 85, 2.0
> > liter. The exhaust manifold lights up bright red after running for a
> > few moments. My friend had told me to un-hook the catalytic converter
> > from the pipe and see if it would get hot. When i looked under the car
> > i didnt see the catalytic converter. I looked up a picture to make
> > sure i knew what i was looking for, but found nothing. Timing was
> > right on and everything, it doesnt seem that the timing chain could
> > have slipped at all either. Im still stuck on this whole thing.
>
> The cat is a muffler-shaped device located on the exhaust pipe towards
> the front of the car, usually about where the driver sits. If you follow
> the exhaust pipe from the engine to the back of the car, you should
> see something muffler-like before you get to the actual muffler at the
> back of the car. But removing the cat won't solve your problem, and
> it's not easily removed on most cars.
>
> If you've been following this thread, you'll see that the red glow is the
> result of continued combustion in the manifold. This can be caused by
> many things, such as base timing being off, not enough advance at
> higher rpms, too rich a mixture, or an air leak into the manifold. If the
> glow is that obvious and you really don't know what to do, take it to
> your favorite mechanic and let him have a go at it.
Awesome advice there, i think that you have shinned the light upon me!
i veleive the problem happend after i did a tune up, but i changed it
back to where everything was set before the tune up (including putting
the old cables, cap and rotor on) seems to be really sluggish, i cant
get it to go over 15 mph in first, and it gets up to 25 in a five mile
stretch. ive noticed that it could just possibly be a leak then. ill
take a look at everything again, Possibly check if im runnin too rich.
#44
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Hi Bob
Hope you had a nice Christmas, I did. Sorry I haven't gotten back to you
until now, it's been nutzzzz around here, I haven't had much time to myself
lately. I'm not even sure if you're even looking at this post anymore.
Anyhooooo, thanks for all the help, I'm going to leave the car the way it
is, it's not perfect, but at least I know that the exhaust manifold won't
get so hot that it will melt off!!!! LOL
As I mentioned before the problem has all but gone away. The remaining,
slight red glow (only when the car is driven faster then 110Kph) isn't that
bad at all. The remainder of the problem might be the Thermo to ERG valve,
but for now I'm going to leave er alone until I find out for sure.
Talk to you soon
Mike
PS funny story about your brother's doomed car. Funny thing is that the
Excell doesn't handle that badly, I know because I drive down, gravel back
roads, here in the country. Sure it's not a Porche, but it handles ok for a
small car : )
I'll check from time to time to see if you
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vtkb552jfosj6a@corp.supernews.com...
> I agree it could be a design flaw, however Hyundai would have taken care
of
> the problem by now (1986-91)
> I'll research the problem, check to see if the dis has enough vacuum as
you
> are suggesting.
> BTW, the dis timing is around 6% BTDC, I left the dis timing like this
> becacause I knew it to be correct. When I said that I changed the dis
timing
> to 12% BTDC, and got a posiative result, I changed it back to the
> recommended specs 4 BTDC +-1
> I found 4 degrees to be a little sluggish and 6 degrees to be right on the
> money.
> With the setup the way I have it right now, releasing my foot from the gas
> pedal sharply doesn't produce any back fire, however I think you ment if I
> had the engine set to 12 degrees BTDC. That is a good theory that you
have,
> I'll give it a shot. One thing I forgot to mention in my last post...I has
> some white deposits on #1 and #2 spark plugs, after readjusting the valve
> lash with the engine hot, the plugs are fine, funny...when I lived in
> Ottawa, I worked as an auto mechanic for 7 years and have known lots of
> mechnics to add a couple of thou to the specs so the can adjust valves
(over
> head cam) on a cold engine. This methiod has always worked great, I gess
in
> my case I have valve margins that are warn unevenly producing a little bit
> of a gap. I'll definatly plug the air injection system and see if that
makes
> a difference, however it may be a few days before I get back to you as I
> have to reinstall Windows XP having a internet problem and did everything
> that is humanly possiable to fix the problem and no go, so gots to
reinstall
> the OS. BTW if you have any computer, hardware, software, networking
> problems, I'm the man. My specility is operating system trouble shooting.
I
> worked for Compaq for 4+ years in the commercial divsion and have 10 years
> of combined trouble shooting experience.
> Anyhoo I'll do a few tests on the car and let ya know.
>
> Mike
>
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:br8qm6$kq9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > Thanks for the update. I've never driven my brother's 91 Fuel Inj
> > Excel at that high a speed for an extended period, but I did notice
> > that the exhaust manifold heat shield that I replaced a couple of
> > years ago looks pretty beat up for such a relatively young part,
> > which may mean that this may just be a design flaw with this
> > engine.
> >
> > As I've said before, if you're pushing the engine to keep it going
> > at 130Kph, you may not be supplying it with enough ported
> > vacuum to keep the dist at its maximum advance. If you have a
> > vacuum gauge, try putting it inline using a tee with the hose going
> > to the dist advance, and see what the readings are at 100 vs 130.
> >
> > You can always advance the base timing from 12 to, say, 14 BTDC
> > as long as the engine doesn't knock and performance doesn't
> > suffer.
> >
> > I doubt there's a carb problem, but if it was running too rich at full
> > throttle, it should backfire a bit when you let up sharply on the gas.
> > Other than a weak power valve spring or slightly clogged secondary
> > air bleeds, there's not a whole lot to adjust on a carb.
> >
> > And once again, check out the air injection hose to the exhaust
> > manifold. Block it off, plug it, whatever, to stop any air from entering
> > the manifold.
> >
> > And for what it's worth, I won't have a 91 Excel to work on anymore.
> > My brother managed to effectively total his on a slippery interstate
> > last week during that New England storm. Fishtailing and bouncing
> > from an adjacent car to a jersey barrier and back, even at a really
> > low speed, will tend to do that. And damn, I just got it to pass a
> > state emissions test for the first time in 6 years thanks to a new
> > catalytic converter I installed over Thanksgiving. The new part just
> > messed up the car's karma, and it was doomed.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vtddldjlhdc5d@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hi Bob
> > > Not sure if your still with me on this problem, I'm 90% sure I got the
> > > problem nailed. The new distributor made the car work better, along
with
> > > adjusting the valve lash when the car is hot (remember I added a
> thousand
> > of
> > > an inch to the specs on a cold engine) Drove the car at 130Kph for 20
> min,
> > > the exhaust manifold is dark, dark, red, any lower speed and the
problem
> > > doesn't occur. So for now I'll just have to take it easy on the car,
> until
> > I
> > > can find out what is causing the slight problem at 130 Kph. I was
> thinking
> > > that, the carb might not be set up properly, something I overlooked.
> > Anyhoo
> > > I just wanted to let you know that I got most of the problem figured
> out.
> > > Cheers
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vt8n82rtbg67f3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hi Bob
> > > > Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine IE
> > holds
> > > > vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now, still
> the
> > > > same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small
> difference:
> > > this
> > > > time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the
for
> > the
> > > > problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red
> > around
> > > > 100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all.
tomorrow
> > I'm
> > > > thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting the
> > valve
> > > > lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine
clold
> > > > (added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let you
> > know
> > > > how that turns out
> > > > Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
> > > > Mike
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow
> I'm
> > > > going
> > > > > into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for
> the
> > > car.
> > > > > I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > The car is a manual Transmission
> > > > > > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a
> way
> > I
> > > > > > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the
key.
> > > > > > > Try one more test:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > > > > > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > > > > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > > > > > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > > > > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > > > > > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it
should
> > > > > > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red
glow,
> > > > > > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > > > > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > > > > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > > > > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > > > > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min,
> took
> > a
> > > > > look
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't
be
> > red,
> > > > > seems
> > > > > > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust
> > > manifold
> > > > > > isn't
> > > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on
my
> > > > previous
> > > > > > > post.
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the
> > engine
> > > > > speed
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is
> > driving
> > > > > > faster,
> > > > > > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when
the
> > car
> > > is
> > > > > > under
> > > > > > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car
> > drives
> > > > > fine,
> > > > > > > > good
> > > > > > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem
> has
> > to
> > > > do
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The
> > > transmission
> > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the
vacuum
> > > > canister
> > > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over
> drive
> > > > > without
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am?
> LOL
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring
the
> > wife
> > > > to
> > > > > > her
> > > > > > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they
> > suggested
> > > > that
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > call
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in
> it.
> > > > > > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also,
I
> > > never
> > > > > got
> > > > > > > > > around
> > > > > > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back
> to
> > > you
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said
that
> > the
> > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is
> true,
> > > > > except
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the
manifold).
> > You
> > > > > can't
> > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at
night.
> > > SORRY
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > forgot
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the
> floor.
> > If
> > > I
> > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas
pedal,
> > I'll
> > > > > back
> > > > > > > off
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of
> > speed
> > > > out
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good
> > > theory
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > have,
> > > > > > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over
drive,
> > > that,
> > > > > > > pressing
> > > > > > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from
> > accelerating,
> > > > thus
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the
> car
> > > as
> > > > > > fast,
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive
at
> > 100
> > > > > plus
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on
> > fire.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at
> > > 100Kph.
> > > > > > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a
> > defective
> > > > > dist
> > > > > > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough
when
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the
> engine
> > > > turns,
> > > > > > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of
> the
> > > gas
> > > > > > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a
> lower
> > > > gear?
> > > > > > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're
at
> > > > 130Kph,
> > > > > > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the
> > > timing,
> > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower
> speed
> > > > simply
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's
into
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle
(pedal
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > > floor)
> > > > > > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when
you're
> > > > > > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine.
One
> > of
> > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at
> > WOT)
> > > > > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running
> at
> > > WOT
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power
> circuit
> > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold
> > vacuum
> > > > > > dropping
> > > > > > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich
> > mixture
> > > > > > results
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > the glow after a priod of time, but how often does
one
> > > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly
> ever
> > > > > (you're
> > > > > > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and
found
> > > > various
> > > > > > > > reason
> > > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem
> was
> > > > > timing.
> > > > > > > But
> > > > > > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem
doesn't
> > > > happen
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a
> > > defective
> > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be
> checking
> > > out
> > > > a
> > > > > > > local
> > > > > > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the
problem
> > was
> > > > > burnt
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and
> the
> > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I
> looked
> > at
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > valves,
> > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I
> assumed
> > > that
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > valves
> > > > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the
spark
> > > plugs
> > > > > are
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > tan
> > > > > > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I
> originally
> > > set
> > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing.
> After
> > I
> > > > > > > > determined
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was
> cold,
> > I
> > > > > just
> > > > > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate
for
> > the
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > being
> > > > > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I
> > don't
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to
> the
> > > hot
> > > > > > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's
heated
> > > > garage
> > > > > so
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is
> > > running
> > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > now?
> > > > > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search
on
> > Red
> > > > Hot
> > > > > > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this
> thread
> > > > near
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > cause.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing
> > retarded,
> > > > > burnt
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was
> > > > wondering
> > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the
valve
> > > > > clearance
> > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If
> > it's
> > > > too
> > > > > > > tight,
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to
> > float
> > > > (not
> > > > > > > seat
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
> > > > clearances,
> > > > > 4
> > > > > > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after
> > > turning
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully
> > warmed
> > > up
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be
> slightly
> > > > > looser
> > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were
in
> > > decent
> > > > > > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I
> > made
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly
for
> > 10
> > > > > miles
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started
> right
> > up
> > > a
> > > > > few
> > > > > > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems
> that
> > I
> > > > had
> > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply
> warmed
> > > it
> > > > up
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on
the
> > > road
> > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote
in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold
vacuum,
> > it's
> > > > the
> > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the
local
> > > > > wrecker,
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were
> > > missing
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to
reverse
> > the
> > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the
> problem.
> > > The
> > > > > 86
> > > > > > > > model
> > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a
> new
> > > > part
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100
> Kph)
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote
in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of
> > > advance
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned
> HCs.
> > > The
> > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a
separate
> > part
> > > > for
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down
right
> > > now).
> > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny,
> the
> > > > other
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local
junkyard
> > for
> > > a
> > > > > lot
> > > > > > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the
> TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article
> > > (V1-30-002)
> > > > > > > > explaining
> > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with
lots
> of
> > > > > > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is
for
> > > > normal
> > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance
> when
> > > the
> > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell
from
> > your
> > > > > > > > description
> > > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no
> > suction
> > > at
> > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at
idle.
> If
> > > you
> > > > > rev
> > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but
> not
> > > the
> > > > > > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other
> is
> > > > > > therefore
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum
when
> > the
> > > > car
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple
> is
> > > the
> > > > > one
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have
cold
> > > > > > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the
> one
> > > > that's
> > > > > > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway
> > speeds.
> > > > If
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
> > > > temporarily
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the
O2
> > > > sensor
> > > > > > > next.
> > > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt
out
> > > after
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital
> > voltmeter
> > > > (not
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector
> > when
> > > > the
> > > > > > car
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and
> the
> > > > > > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to
lean
> > it
> > > > out.
> > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine.
> > Aftermarket
> > > > O2
> > > > > > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a
> lot
> > of
> > > > > > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the
> > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing
> cleaning
> > > out
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca>
> wrote
> > in
> > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor
> weights
> > > > were
> > > > > > > stuck,
> > > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights,
> > spindle
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part
> of
> > my
> > > > > > > problem.
> > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it
> up
> > > and
> > > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the
> vacuum
> > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > module
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line
> > attached
> > > to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a
hand
> > > pump)
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > line
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very
> > much,
> > > > > maybe
> > > > > > 2
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The
car
> > is
> > > > > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees
> > BTDC,
> > > > now
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing
> light
> > > > > > attached,
> > > > > > > > > revved
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly.
Before
> I
> > > > fixed
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2
> degrees
> > > and
> > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took
> the
> > > car
> > > > > for
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min,
> > stopped
> > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over
> drive
> > at
> > > > > > 100Kph,
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled,
any
> > > > > > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Hope you had a nice Christmas, I did. Sorry I haven't gotten back to you
until now, it's been nutzzzz around here, I haven't had much time to myself
lately. I'm not even sure if you're even looking at this post anymore.
Anyhooooo, thanks for all the help, I'm going to leave the car the way it
is, it's not perfect, but at least I know that the exhaust manifold won't
get so hot that it will melt off!!!! LOL
As I mentioned before the problem has all but gone away. The remaining,
slight red glow (only when the car is driven faster then 110Kph) isn't that
bad at all. The remainder of the problem might be the Thermo to ERG valve,
but for now I'm going to leave er alone until I find out for sure.
Talk to you soon
Mike
PS funny story about your brother's doomed car. Funny thing is that the
Excell doesn't handle that badly, I know because I drive down, gravel back
roads, here in the country. Sure it's not a Porche, but it handles ok for a
small car : )
I'll check from time to time to see if you
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vtkb552jfosj6a@corp.supernews.com...
> I agree it could be a design flaw, however Hyundai would have taken care
of
> the problem by now (1986-91)
> I'll research the problem, check to see if the dis has enough vacuum as
you
> are suggesting.
> BTW, the dis timing is around 6% BTDC, I left the dis timing like this
> becacause I knew it to be correct. When I said that I changed the dis
timing
> to 12% BTDC, and got a posiative result, I changed it back to the
> recommended specs 4 BTDC +-1
> I found 4 degrees to be a little sluggish and 6 degrees to be right on the
> money.
> With the setup the way I have it right now, releasing my foot from the gas
> pedal sharply doesn't produce any back fire, however I think you ment if I
> had the engine set to 12 degrees BTDC. That is a good theory that you
have,
> I'll give it a shot. One thing I forgot to mention in my last post...I has
> some white deposits on #1 and #2 spark plugs, after readjusting the valve
> lash with the engine hot, the plugs are fine, funny...when I lived in
> Ottawa, I worked as an auto mechanic for 7 years and have known lots of
> mechnics to add a couple of thou to the specs so the can adjust valves
(over
> head cam) on a cold engine. This methiod has always worked great, I gess
in
> my case I have valve margins that are warn unevenly producing a little bit
> of a gap. I'll definatly plug the air injection system and see if that
makes
> a difference, however it may be a few days before I get back to you as I
> have to reinstall Windows XP having a internet problem and did everything
> that is humanly possiable to fix the problem and no go, so gots to
reinstall
> the OS. BTW if you have any computer, hardware, software, networking
> problems, I'm the man. My specility is operating system trouble shooting.
I
> worked for Compaq for 4+ years in the commercial divsion and have 10 years
> of combined trouble shooting experience.
> Anyhoo I'll do a few tests on the car and let ya know.
>
> Mike
>
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:br8qm6$kq9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > Thanks for the update. I've never driven my brother's 91 Fuel Inj
> > Excel at that high a speed for an extended period, but I did notice
> > that the exhaust manifold heat shield that I replaced a couple of
> > years ago looks pretty beat up for such a relatively young part,
> > which may mean that this may just be a design flaw with this
> > engine.
> >
> > As I've said before, if you're pushing the engine to keep it going
> > at 130Kph, you may not be supplying it with enough ported
> > vacuum to keep the dist at its maximum advance. If you have a
> > vacuum gauge, try putting it inline using a tee with the hose going
> > to the dist advance, and see what the readings are at 100 vs 130.
> >
> > You can always advance the base timing from 12 to, say, 14 BTDC
> > as long as the engine doesn't knock and performance doesn't
> > suffer.
> >
> > I doubt there's a carb problem, but if it was running too rich at full
> > throttle, it should backfire a bit when you let up sharply on the gas.
> > Other than a weak power valve spring or slightly clogged secondary
> > air bleeds, there's not a whole lot to adjust on a carb.
> >
> > And once again, check out the air injection hose to the exhaust
> > manifold. Block it off, plug it, whatever, to stop any air from entering
> > the manifold.
> >
> > And for what it's worth, I won't have a 91 Excel to work on anymore.
> > My brother managed to effectively total his on a slippery interstate
> > last week during that New England storm. Fishtailing and bouncing
> > from an adjacent car to a jersey barrier and back, even at a really
> > low speed, will tend to do that. And damn, I just got it to pass a
> > state emissions test for the first time in 6 years thanks to a new
> > catalytic converter I installed over Thanksgiving. The new part just
> > messed up the car's karma, and it was doomed.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vtddldjlhdc5d@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hi Bob
> > > Not sure if your still with me on this problem, I'm 90% sure I got the
> > > problem nailed. The new distributor made the car work better, along
with
> > > adjusting the valve lash when the car is hot (remember I added a
> thousand
> > of
> > > an inch to the specs on a cold engine) Drove the car at 130Kph for 20
> min,
> > > the exhaust manifold is dark, dark, red, any lower speed and the
problem
> > > doesn't occur. So for now I'll just have to take it easy on the car,
> until
> > I
> > > can find out what is causing the slight problem at 130 Kph. I was
> thinking
> > > that, the carb might not be set up properly, something I overlooked.
> > Anyhoo
> > > I just wanted to let you know that I got most of the problem figured
> out.
> > > Cheers
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vt8n82rtbg67f3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hi Bob
> > > > Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine IE
> > holds
> > > > vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now, still
> the
> > > > same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small
> difference:
> > > this
> > > > time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the
for
> > the
> > > > problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red
> > around
> > > > 100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all.
tomorrow
> > I'm
> > > > thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting the
> > valve
> > > > lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine
clold
> > > > (added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let you
> > know
> > > > how that turns out
> > > > Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
> > > > Mike
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow
> I'm
> > > > going
> > > > > into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for
> the
> > > car.
> > > > > I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > The car is a manual Transmission
> > > > > > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a
> way
> > I
> > > > > > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the
key.
> > > > > > > Try one more test:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > > > > > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > > > > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > > > > > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > > > > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > > > > > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it
should
> > > > > > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red
glow,
> > > > > > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > > > > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > > > > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > > > > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > > > > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min,
> took
> > a
> > > > > look
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't
be
> > red,
> > > > > seems
> > > > > > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust
> > > manifold
> > > > > > isn't
> > > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on
my
> > > > previous
> > > > > > > post.
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the
> > engine
> > > > > speed
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is
> > driving
> > > > > > faster,
> > > > > > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when
the
> > car
> > > is
> > > > > > under
> > > > > > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car
> > drives
> > > > > fine,
> > > > > > > > good
> > > > > > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem
> has
> > to
> > > > do
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The
> > > transmission
> > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the
vacuum
> > > > canister
> > > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over
> drive
> > > > > without
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am?
> LOL
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring
the
> > wife
> > > > to
> > > > > > her
> > > > > > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they
> > suggested
> > > > that
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > call
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in
> it.
> > > > > > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also,
I
> > > never
> > > > > got
> > > > > > > > > around
> > > > > > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back
> to
> > > you
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said
that
> > the
> > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is
> true,
> > > > > except
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the
manifold).
> > You
> > > > > can't
> > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at
night.
> > > SORRY
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > forgot
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the
> floor.
> > If
> > > I
> > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas
pedal,
> > I'll
> > > > > back
> > > > > > > off
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of
> > speed
> > > > out
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good
> > > theory
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > have,
> > > > > > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over
drive,
> > > that,
> > > > > > > pressing
> > > > > > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from
> > accelerating,
> > > > thus
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the
> car
> > > as
> > > > > > fast,
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive
at
> > 100
> > > > > plus
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on
> > fire.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at
> > > 100Kph.
> > > > > > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a
> > defective
> > > > > dist
> > > > > > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough
when
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the
> engine
> > > > turns,
> > > > > > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of
> the
> > > gas
> > > > > > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a
> lower
> > > > gear?
> > > > > > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're
at
> > > > 130Kph,
> > > > > > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the
> > > timing,
> > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower
> speed
> > > > simply
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's
into
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle
(pedal
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > > floor)
> > > > > > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when
you're
> > > > > > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine.
One
> > of
> > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at
> > WOT)
> > > > > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running
> at
> > > WOT
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power
> circuit
> > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold
> > vacuum
> > > > > > dropping
> > > > > > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich
> > mixture
> > > > > > results
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > the glow after a priod of time, but how often does
one
> > > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly
> ever
> > > > > (you're
> > > > > > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and
found
> > > > various
> > > > > > > > reason
> > > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem
> was
> > > > > timing.
> > > > > > > But
> > > > > > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem
doesn't
> > > > happen
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a
> > > defective
> > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be
> checking
> > > out
> > > > a
> > > > > > > local
> > > > > > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the
problem
> > was
> > > > > burnt
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and
> the
> > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I
> looked
> > at
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > valves,
> > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I
> assumed
> > > that
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > valves
> > > > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the
spark
> > > plugs
> > > > > are
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > tan
> > > > > > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I
> originally
> > > set
> > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing.
> After
> > I
> > > > > > > > determined
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was
> cold,
> > I
> > > > > just
> > > > > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate
for
> > the
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > being
> > > > > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I
> > don't
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to
> the
> > > hot
> > > > > > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's
heated
> > > > garage
> > > > > so
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is
> > > running
> > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > now?
> > > > > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search
on
> > Red
> > > > Hot
> > > > > > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this
> thread
> > > > near
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > cause.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing
> > retarded,
> > > > > burnt
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was
> > > > wondering
> > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the
valve
> > > > > clearance
> > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If
> > it's
> > > > too
> > > > > > > tight,
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to
> > float
> > > > (not
> > > > > > > seat
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
> > > > clearances,
> > > > > 4
> > > > > > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after
> > > turning
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully
> > warmed
> > > up
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be
> slightly
> > > > > looser
> > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were
in
> > > decent
> > > > > > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I
> > made
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly
for
> > 10
> > > > > miles
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started
> right
> > up
> > > a
> > > > > few
> > > > > > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems
> that
> > I
> > > > had
> > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply
> warmed
> > > it
> > > > up
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on
the
> > > road
> > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote
in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold
vacuum,
> > it's
> > > > the
> > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the
local
> > > > > wrecker,
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were
> > > missing
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to
reverse
> > the
> > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the
> problem.
> > > The
> > > > > 86
> > > > > > > > model
> > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a
> new
> > > > part
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100
> Kph)
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote
in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of
> > > advance
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned
> HCs.
> > > The
> > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a
separate
> > part
> > > > for
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down
right
> > > now).
> > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny,
> the
> > > > other
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local
junkyard
> > for
> > > a
> > > > > lot
> > > > > > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the
> TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article
> > > (V1-30-002)
> > > > > > > > explaining
> > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with
lots
> of
> > > > > > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is
for
> > > > normal
> > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance
> when
> > > the
> > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell
from
> > your
> > > > > > > > description
> > > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no
> > suction
> > > at
> > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at
idle.
> If
> > > you
> > > > > rev
> > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but
> not
> > > the
> > > > > > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other
> is
> > > > > > therefore
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum
when
> > the
> > > > car
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple
> is
> > > the
> > > > > one
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have
cold
> > > > > > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the
> one
> > > > that's
> > > > > > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway
> > speeds.
> > > > If
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
> > > > temporarily
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the
O2
> > > > sensor
> > > > > > > next.
> > > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt
out
> > > after
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital
> > voltmeter
> > > > (not
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector
> > when
> > > > the
> > > > > > car
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and
> the
> > > > > > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to
lean
> > it
> > > > out.
> > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine.
> > Aftermarket
> > > > O2
> > > > > > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a
> lot
> > of
> > > > > > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the
> > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing
> cleaning
> > > out
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca>
> wrote
> > in
> > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor
> weights
> > > > were
> > > > > > > stuck,
> > > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights,
> > spindle
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part
> of
> > my
> > > > > > > problem.
> > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it
> up
> > > and
> > > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the
> vacuum
> > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > module
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line
> > attached
> > > to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a
hand
> > > pump)
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > line
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very
> > much,
> > > > > maybe
> > > > > > 2
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The
car
> > is
> > > > > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees
> > BTDC,
> > > > now
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing
> light
> > > > > > attached,
> > > > > > > > > revved
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly.
Before
> I
> > > > fixed
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2
> degrees
> > > and
> > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took
> the
> > > car
> > > > > for
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min,
> > stopped
> > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over
> drive
> > at
> > > > > > 100Kph,
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled,
any
> > > > > > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
You're quite welcome. I'm glad to hear things worked out well
enough with the Excel. The fact that it's such a reliable little car
once you've gotten all the kinks worked out makes it difficult for
my brother to simply junk his doomed one when all it seems to
need is (just!) 2 fenders, a front bumper and a passenger door
and a hood. In other words, with all the damage, it still runs and
drives great. FWIW, the first body shop he took it to didn't even
want to give an estimate.
Regarding your car, you might want to eventually buy a heat
shield for the exhaust manifold for about $20-30, just to protect
the hood and any nearby hoses and wiring when summer comes
around.
But right now, I have to figure out what to do on this balmy, zero
degree (F) day here in CT. Balmy for you, that is.
Later,
Bob
"Mike W" <wilsonjmichael@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vvnj1vabrufbb8@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi Bob
> Hope you had a nice Christmas, I did. Sorry I haven't gotten back to you
> until now, it's been nutzzzz around here, I haven't had much time to
myself
> lately. I'm not even sure if you're even looking at this post anymore.
> Anyhooooo, thanks for all the help, I'm going to leave the car the way it
> is, it's not perfect, but at least I know that the exhaust manifold won't
> get so hot that it will melt off!!!! LOL
> As I mentioned before the problem has all but gone away. The remaining,
> slight red glow (only when the car is driven faster then 110Kph) isn't
that
> bad at all. The remainder of the problem might be the Thermo to ERG valve,
> but for now I'm going to leave er alone until I find out for sure.
>
> Talk to you soon
> Mike
> PS funny story about your brother's doomed car. Funny thing is that the
> Excell doesn't handle that badly, I know because I drive down, gravel back
> roads, here in the country. Sure it's not a Porche, but it handles ok for
a
> small car : )
>
> I'll check from time to time to see if you
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vtkb552jfosj6a@corp.supernews.com...
> > I agree it could be a design flaw, however Hyundai would have taken care
> of
> > the problem by now (1986-91)
> > I'll research the problem, check to see if the dis has enough vacuum as
> you
> > are suggesting.
> > BTW, the dis timing is around 6% BTDC, I left the dis timing like this
> > becacause I knew it to be correct. When I said that I changed the dis
> timing
> > to 12% BTDC, and got a posiative result, I changed it back to the
> > recommended specs 4 BTDC +-1
> > I found 4 degrees to be a little sluggish and 6 degrees to be right on
the
> > money.
> > With the setup the way I have it right now, releasing my foot from the
gas
> > pedal sharply doesn't produce any back fire, however I think you ment if
I
> > had the engine set to 12 degrees BTDC. That is a good theory that you
> have,
> > I'll give it a shot. One thing I forgot to mention in my last post...I
has
> > some white deposits on #1 and #2 spark plugs, after readjusting the
valve
> > lash with the engine hot, the plugs are fine, funny...when I lived in
> > Ottawa, I worked as an auto mechanic for 7 years and have known lots of
> > mechnics to add a couple of thou to the specs so the can adjust valves
> (over
> > head cam) on a cold engine. This methiod has always worked great, I gess
> in
> > my case I have valve margins that are warn unevenly producing a little
bit
> > of a gap. I'll definatly plug the air injection system and see if that
> makes
> > a difference, however it may be a few days before I get back to you as I
> > have to reinstall Windows XP having a internet problem and did
everything
> > that is humanly possiable to fix the problem and no go, so gots to
> reinstall
> > the OS. BTW if you have any computer, hardware, software, networking
> > problems, I'm the man. My specility is operating system trouble
shooting.
> I
> > worked for Compaq for 4+ years in the commercial divsion and have 10
years
> > of combined trouble shooting experience.
> > Anyhoo I'll do a few tests on the car and let ya know.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > news:br8qm6$kq9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > Thanks for the update. I've never driven my brother's 91 Fuel Inj
> > > Excel at that high a speed for an extended period, but I did notice
> > > that the exhaust manifold heat shield that I replaced a couple of
> > > years ago looks pretty beat up for such a relatively young part,
> > > which may mean that this may just be a design flaw with this
> > > engine.
> > >
> > > As I've said before, if you're pushing the engine to keep it going
> > > at 130Kph, you may not be supplying it with enough ported
> > > vacuum to keep the dist at its maximum advance. If you have a
> > > vacuum gauge, try putting it inline using a tee with the hose going
> > > to the dist advance, and see what the readings are at 100 vs 130.
> > >
> > > You can always advance the base timing from 12 to, say, 14 BTDC
> > > as long as the engine doesn't knock and performance doesn't
> > > suffer.
> > >
> > > I doubt there's a carb problem, but if it was running too rich at full
> > > throttle, it should backfire a bit when you let up sharply on the gas.
> > > Other than a weak power valve spring or slightly clogged secondary
> > > air bleeds, there's not a whole lot to adjust on a carb.
> > >
> > > And once again, check out the air injection hose to the exhaust
> > > manifold. Block it off, plug it, whatever, to stop any air from
entering
> > > the manifold.
> > >
> > > And for what it's worth, I won't have a 91 Excel to work on anymore.
> > > My brother managed to effectively total his on a slippery interstate
> > > last week during that New England storm. Fishtailing and bouncing
> > > from an adjacent car to a jersey barrier and back, even at a really
> > > low speed, will tend to do that. And damn, I just got it to pass a
> > > state emissions test for the first time in 6 years thanks to a new
> > > catalytic converter I installed over Thanksgiving. The new part just
> > > messed up the car's karma, and it was doomed.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vtddldjlhdc5d@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hi Bob
> > > > Not sure if your still with me on this problem, I'm 90% sure I got
the
> > > > problem nailed. The new distributor made the car work better, along
> with
> > > > adjusting the valve lash when the car is hot (remember I added a
> > thousand
> > > of
> > > > an inch to the specs on a cold engine) Drove the car at 130Kph for
20
> > min,
> > > > the exhaust manifold is dark, dark, red, any lower speed and the
> problem
> > > > doesn't occur. So for now I'll just have to take it easy on the car,
> > until
> > > I
> > > > can find out what is causing the slight problem at 130 Kph. I was
> > thinking
> > > > that, the carb might not be set up properly, something I overlooked.
> > > Anyhoo
> > > > I just wanted to let you know that I got most of the problem figured
> > out.
> > > > Cheers
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vt8n82rtbg67f3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Hi Bob
> > > > > Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine
IE
> > > holds
> > > > > vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now,
still
> > the
> > > > > same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small
> > difference:
> > > > this
> > > > > time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the
> for
> > > the
> > > > > problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red
> > > around
> > > > > 100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all.
> tomorrow
> > > I'm
> > > > > thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting
the
> > > valve
> > > > > lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine
> clold
> > > > > (added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let
you
> > > know
> > > > > how that turns out
> > > > > Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff.
Tomorrow
> > I'm
> > > > > going
> > > > > > into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution
for
> > the
> > > > car.
> > > > > > I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so
far.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > > The car is a manual Transmission
> > > > > > > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in
a
> > way
> > > I
> > > > > > > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the
> key.
> > > > > > > > Try one more test:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will
take
> > > > > > > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > > > > > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging
under
> > > > > > > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > > > > > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you
better
> > > > > > > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it
> should
> > > > > > > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red
> glow,
> > > > > > > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > > > > > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > > > > > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > > > > > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > > > > > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10
min,
> > took
> > > a
> > > > > > look
> > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't
> be
> > > red,
> > > > > > seems
> > > > > > > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the
exhaust
> > > > manifold
> > > > > > > isn't
> > > > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on
> my
> > > > > previous
> > > > > > > > post.
> > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as
the
> > > engine
> > > > > > speed
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is
> > > driving
> > > > > > > faster,
> > > > > > > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when
> the
> > > car
> > > > is
> > > > > > > under
> > > > > > > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the
car
> > > drives
> > > > > > fine,
> > > > > > > > > good
> > > > > > > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the
problem
> > has
> > > to
> > > > > do
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The
> > > > transmission
> > > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the
> vacuum
> > > > > canister
> > > > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over
> > drive
> > > > > > without
> > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I
am?
> > LOL
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring
> the
> > > wife
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > her
> > > > > > > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they
> > > suggested
> > > > > that
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > call
> > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine
in
> > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that
also,
> I
> > > > never
> > > > > > got
> > > > > > > > > > around
> > > > > > > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get
back
> > to
> > > > you
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said
> that
> > > the
> > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is
> > true,
> > > > > > except
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the
> manifold).
> > > You
> > > > > > can't
> > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at
> night.
> > > > SORRY
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > forgot
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the
> > floor.
> > > If
> > > > I
> > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas
> pedal,
> > > I'll
> > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > off
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce
of
> > > speed
> > > > > out
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a
good
> > > > theory
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > have,
> > > > > > > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over
> drive,
> > > > that,
> > > > > > > > pressing
> > > > > > > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from
> > > accelerating,
> > > > > thus
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving
the
> > car
> > > > as
> > > > > > > fast,
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to
drive
> at
> > > 100
> > > > > > plus
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching
on
> > > fire.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not
at
> > > > 100Kph.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a
> > > defective
> > > > > > dist
> > > > > > > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough
> when
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the
> > engine
> > > > > turns,
> > > > > > > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed
of
> > the
> > > > gas
> > > > > > > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a
> > lower
> > > > > gear?
> > > > > > > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're
> at
> > > > > 130Kph,
> > > > > > > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed
the
> > > > timing,
> > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower
> > speed
> > > > > simply
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's
> into
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle
> (pedal
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > floor)
> > > > > > > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when
> you're
> > > > > > > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine.
> One
> > > of
> > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill
at
> > > WOT)
> > > > > > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of
running
> > at
> > > > WOT
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > extended periods of time. ost carbs have a power
> > circuit
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold
> > > vacuum
> > > > > > > dropping
> > > > > > > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich
> > > mixture
> > > > > > > results
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does
> one
> > > > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly
> > ever
> > > > > > (you're
> > > > > > > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and
> found
> > > > > various
> > > > > > > > > reason
> > > > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the
problem
> > was
> > > > > > timing.
> > > > > > > > But
> > > > > > > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem
> doesn't
> > > > > happen
> > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a
> > > > defective
> > > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be
> > checking
> > > > out
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > local
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the
> problem
> > > was
> > > > > > burnt
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly
and
> > the
> > > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I
> > looked
> > > at
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > valves,
> > > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I
> > assumed
> > > > that
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > valves
> > > > > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the
> spark
> > > > plugs
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > tan
> > > > > > > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I
> > originally
> > > > set
> > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing.
> > After
> > > I
> > > > > > > > > determined
> > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was
> > cold,
> > > I
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate
> for
> > > the
> > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > being
> > > > > > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If
I
> > > don't
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves
to
> > the
> > > > hot
> > > > > > > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's
> heated
> > > > > garage
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car
is
> > > > running
> > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > now?
> > > > > > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search
> on
> > > Red
> > > > > Hot
> > > > > > > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this
> > thread
> > > > > near
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions
as
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > cause.
> > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing
> > > retarded,
> > > > > > burnt
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I
was
> > > > > wondering
> > > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the
> valve
> > > > > > clearance
> > > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together?
If
> > > it's
> > > > > too
> > > > > > > > tight,
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start
to
> > > float
> > > > > (not
> > > > > > > > seat
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
> > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > 4
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4
after
> > > > turning
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully
> > > warmed
> > > > up
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be
> > slightly
> > > > > > looser
> > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were
> in
> > > > decent
> > > > > > > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because
I
> > > made
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly
> for
> > > 10
> > > > > > miles
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started
> > right
> > > up
> > > > a
> > > > > > few
> > > > > > > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems
> > that
> > > I
> > > > > had
> > > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply
> > warmed
> > > > it
> > > > > up
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on
> the
> > > > road
> > > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca>
wrote
> in
> > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold
> vacuum,
> > > it's
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the
> local
> > > > > > wrecker,
> > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all
were
> > > > missing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to
> reverse
> > > the
> > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the
> > problem.
> > > > The
> > > > > > 86
> > > > > > > > > model
> > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy
a
> > new
> > > > > part
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow
(100
> > Kph)
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote
> in
> > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack
of
> > > > advance
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much
unburned
> > HCs.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a
> separate
> > > part
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down
> right
> > > > now).
> > > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic
tranny,
> > the
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local
> junkyard
> > > for
> > > > a
> > > > > > lot
> > > > > > > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the
> > TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article
> > > > (V1-30-002)
> > > > > > > > > explaining
> > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with
> lots
> > of
> > > > > > > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is
> for
> > > > > normal
> > > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance
> > when
> > > > the
> > > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell
> from
> > > your
> > > > > > > > > description
> > > > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no
> > > suction
> > > > at
> > > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at
> idle.
> > If
> > > > you
> > > > > > rev
> > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose
but
> > not
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the
other
> > is
> > > > > > > therefore
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum
> when
> > > the
> > > > > car
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance
nipple
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have
> cold
> > > > > > > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is
the
> > one
> > > > > that's
> > > > > > > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway
> > > speeds.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
> > > > > temporarily
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold
problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out
the
> O2
> > > > > sensor
> > > > > > > > next.
> > > > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt
> out
> > > > after
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital
> > > voltmeter
> > > > > (not
> > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the
connector
> > > when
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > car
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor,
and
> > the
> > > > > > > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to
> lean
> > > it
> > > > > out.
> > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine.
> > > Aftermarket
> > > > > O2
> > > > > > > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and
a
> > lot
> > > of
> > > > > > > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of
the
> > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing
> > cleaning
> > > > out
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca>
> > wrote
> > > in
> > > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor
> > weights
> > > > > were
> > > > > > > > stuck,
> > > > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights,
> > > spindle
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was
part
> > of
> > > my
> > > > > > > > problem.
> > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned
it
> > up
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the
> > vacuum
> > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > module
> > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line
> > > attached
> > > > to
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a
> hand
> > > > pump)
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > line
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not
very
> > > much,
> > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > 2
> > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The
> car
> > > is
> > > > > > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4
degrees
> > > BTDC,
> > > > > now
> > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing
> > light
> > > > > > > attached,
> > > > > > > > > > revved
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly.
> Before
> > I
> > > > > fixed
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2
> > degrees
> > > > and
> > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine.
Took
> > the
> > > > car
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min,
> > > stopped
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over
> > drive
> > > at
> > > > > > > 100Kph,
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled,
> any
> > > > > > > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
enough with the Excel. The fact that it's such a reliable little car
once you've gotten all the kinks worked out makes it difficult for
my brother to simply junk his doomed one when all it seems to
need is (just!) 2 fenders, a front bumper and a passenger door
and a hood. In other words, with all the damage, it still runs and
drives great. FWIW, the first body shop he took it to didn't even
want to give an estimate.
Regarding your car, you might want to eventually buy a heat
shield for the exhaust manifold for about $20-30, just to protect
the hood and any nearby hoses and wiring when summer comes
around.
But right now, I have to figure out what to do on this balmy, zero
degree (F) day here in CT. Balmy for you, that is.
Later,
Bob
"Mike W" <wilsonjmichael@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vvnj1vabrufbb8@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi Bob
> Hope you had a nice Christmas, I did. Sorry I haven't gotten back to you
> until now, it's been nutzzzz around here, I haven't had much time to
myself
> lately. I'm not even sure if you're even looking at this post anymore.
> Anyhooooo, thanks for all the help, I'm going to leave the car the way it
> is, it's not perfect, but at least I know that the exhaust manifold won't
> get so hot that it will melt off!!!! LOL
> As I mentioned before the problem has all but gone away. The remaining,
> slight red glow (only when the car is driven faster then 110Kph) isn't
that
> bad at all. The remainder of the problem might be the Thermo to ERG valve,
> but for now I'm going to leave er alone until I find out for sure.
>
> Talk to you soon
> Mike
> PS funny story about your brother's doomed car. Funny thing is that the
> Excell doesn't handle that badly, I know because I drive down, gravel back
> roads, here in the country. Sure it's not a Porche, but it handles ok for
a
> small car : )
>
> I'll check from time to time to see if you
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vtkb552jfosj6a@corp.supernews.com...
> > I agree it could be a design flaw, however Hyundai would have taken care
> of
> > the problem by now (1986-91)
> > I'll research the problem, check to see if the dis has enough vacuum as
> you
> > are suggesting.
> > BTW, the dis timing is around 6% BTDC, I left the dis timing like this
> > becacause I knew it to be correct. When I said that I changed the dis
> timing
> > to 12% BTDC, and got a posiative result, I changed it back to the
> > recommended specs 4 BTDC +-1
> > I found 4 degrees to be a little sluggish and 6 degrees to be right on
the
> > money.
> > With the setup the way I have it right now, releasing my foot from the
gas
> > pedal sharply doesn't produce any back fire, however I think you ment if
I
> > had the engine set to 12 degrees BTDC. That is a good theory that you
> have,
> > I'll give it a shot. One thing I forgot to mention in my last post...I
has
> > some white deposits on #1 and #2 spark plugs, after readjusting the
valve
> > lash with the engine hot, the plugs are fine, funny...when I lived in
> > Ottawa, I worked as an auto mechanic for 7 years and have known lots of
> > mechnics to add a couple of thou to the specs so the can adjust valves
> (over
> > head cam) on a cold engine. This methiod has always worked great, I gess
> in
> > my case I have valve margins that are warn unevenly producing a little
bit
> > of a gap. I'll definatly plug the air injection system and see if that
> makes
> > a difference, however it may be a few days before I get back to you as I
> > have to reinstall Windows XP having a internet problem and did
everything
> > that is humanly possiable to fix the problem and no go, so gots to
> reinstall
> > the OS. BTW if you have any computer, hardware, software, networking
> > problems, I'm the man. My specility is operating system trouble
shooting.
> I
> > worked for Compaq for 4+ years in the commercial divsion and have 10
years
> > of combined trouble shooting experience.
> > Anyhoo I'll do a few tests on the car and let ya know.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > news:br8qm6$kq9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > Thanks for the update. I've never driven my brother's 91 Fuel Inj
> > > Excel at that high a speed for an extended period, but I did notice
> > > that the exhaust manifold heat shield that I replaced a couple of
> > > years ago looks pretty beat up for such a relatively young part,
> > > which may mean that this may just be a design flaw with this
> > > engine.
> > >
> > > As I've said before, if you're pushing the engine to keep it going
> > > at 130Kph, you may not be supplying it with enough ported
> > > vacuum to keep the dist at its maximum advance. If you have a
> > > vacuum gauge, try putting it inline using a tee with the hose going
> > > to the dist advance, and see what the readings are at 100 vs 130.
> > >
> > > You can always advance the base timing from 12 to, say, 14 BTDC
> > > as long as the engine doesn't knock and performance doesn't
> > > suffer.
> > >
> > > I doubt there's a carb problem, but if it was running too rich at full
> > > throttle, it should backfire a bit when you let up sharply on the gas.
> > > Other than a weak power valve spring or slightly clogged secondary
> > > air bleeds, there's not a whole lot to adjust on a carb.
> > >
> > > And once again, check out the air injection hose to the exhaust
> > > manifold. Block it off, plug it, whatever, to stop any air from
entering
> > > the manifold.
> > >
> > > And for what it's worth, I won't have a 91 Excel to work on anymore.
> > > My brother managed to effectively total his on a slippery interstate
> > > last week during that New England storm. Fishtailing and bouncing
> > > from an adjacent car to a jersey barrier and back, even at a really
> > > low speed, will tend to do that. And damn, I just got it to pass a
> > > state emissions test for the first time in 6 years thanks to a new
> > > catalytic converter I installed over Thanksgiving. The new part just
> > > messed up the car's karma, and it was doomed.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vtddldjlhdc5d@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hi Bob
> > > > Not sure if your still with me on this problem, I'm 90% sure I got
the
> > > > problem nailed. The new distributor made the car work better, along
> with
> > > > adjusting the valve lash when the car is hot (remember I added a
> > thousand
> > > of
> > > > an inch to the specs on a cold engine) Drove the car at 130Kph for
20
> > min,
> > > > the exhaust manifold is dark, dark, red, any lower speed and the
> problem
> > > > doesn't occur. So for now I'll just have to take it easy on the car,
> > until
> > > I
> > > > can find out what is causing the slight problem at 130 Kph. I was
> > thinking
> > > > that, the carb might not be set up properly, something I overlooked.
> > > Anyhoo
> > > > I just wanted to let you know that I got most of the problem figured
> > out.
> > > > Cheers
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vt8n82rtbg67f3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Hi Bob
> > > > > Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine
IE
> > > holds
> > > > > vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now,
still
> > the
> > > > > same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small
> > difference:
> > > > this
> > > > > time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the
> for
> > > the
> > > > > problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red
> > > around
> > > > > 100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all.
> tomorrow
> > > I'm
> > > > > thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting
the
> > > valve
> > > > > lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine
> clold
> > > > > (added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let
you
> > > know
> > > > > how that turns out
> > > > > Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff.
Tomorrow
> > I'm
> > > > > going
> > > > > > into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution
for
> > the
> > > > car.
> > > > > > I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so
far.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > > The car is a manual Transmission
> > > > > > > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in
a
> > way
> > > I
> > > > > > > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the
> key.
> > > > > > > > Try one more test:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will
take
> > > > > > > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > > > > > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging
under
> > > > > > > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > > > > > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you
better
> > > > > > > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it
> should
> > > > > > > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red
> glow,
> > > > > > > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > > > > > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > > > > > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > > > > > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > > > > > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10
min,
> > took
> > > a
> > > > > > look
> > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't
> be
> > > red,
> > > > > > seems
> > > > > > > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the
exhaust
> > > > manifold
> > > > > > > isn't
> > > > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on
> my
> > > > > previous
> > > > > > > > post.
> > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as
the
> > > engine
> > > > > > speed
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is
> > > driving
> > > > > > > faster,
> > > > > > > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when
> the
> > > car
> > > > is
> > > > > > > under
> > > > > > > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the
car
> > > drives
> > > > > > fine,
> > > > > > > > > good
> > > > > > > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the
problem
> > has
> > > to
> > > > > do
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The
> > > > transmission
> > > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the
> vacuum
> > > > > canister
> > > > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over
> > drive
> > > > > > without
> > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I
am?
> > LOL
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring
> the
> > > wife
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > her
> > > > > > > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they
> > > suggested
> > > > > that
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > call
> > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine
in
> > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that
also,
> I
> > > > never
> > > > > > got
> > > > > > > > > > around
> > > > > > > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get
back
> > to
> > > > you
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said
> that
> > > the
> > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is
> > true,
> > > > > > except
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the
> manifold).
> > > You
> > > > > > can't
> > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at
> night.
> > > > SORRY
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > forgot
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the
> > floor.
> > > If
> > > > I
> > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas
> pedal,
> > > I'll
> > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > off
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce
of
> > > speed
> > > > > out
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a
good
> > > > theory
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > have,
> > > > > > > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over
> drive,
> > > > that,
> > > > > > > > pressing
> > > > > > > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from
> > > accelerating,
> > > > > thus
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving
the
> > car
> > > > as
> > > > > > > fast,
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to
drive
> at
> > > 100
> > > > > > plus
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching
on
> > > fire.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not
at
> > > > 100Kph.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a
> > > defective
> > > > > > dist
> > > > > > > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough
> when
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the
> > engine
> > > > > turns,
> > > > > > > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed
of
> > the
> > > > gas
> > > > > > > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a
> > lower
> > > > > gear?
> > > > > > > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're
> at
> > > > > 130Kph,
> > > > > > > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed
the
> > > > timing,
> > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower
> > speed
> > > > > simply
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's
> into
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle
> (pedal
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > floor)
> > > > > > > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when
> you're
> > > > > > > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine.
> One
> > > of
> > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill
at
> > > WOT)
> > > > > > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of
running
> > at
> > > > WOT
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > extended periods of time. ost carbs have a power
> > circuit
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold
> > > vacuum
> > > > > > > dropping
> > > > > > > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich
> > > mixture
> > > > > > > results
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does
> one
> > > > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly
> > ever
> > > > > > (you're
> > > > > > > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and
> found
> > > > > various
> > > > > > > > > reason
> > > > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the
problem
> > was
> > > > > > timing.
> > > > > > > > But
> > > > > > > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem
> doesn't
> > > > > happen
> > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a
> > > > defective
> > > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be
> > checking
> > > > out
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > local
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the
> problem
> > > was
> > > > > > burnt
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly
and
> > the
> > > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I
> > looked
> > > at
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > valves,
> > > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I
> > assumed
> > > > that
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > valves
> > > > > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the
> spark
> > > > plugs
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > tan
> > > > > > > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I
> > originally
> > > > set
> > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing.
> > After
> > > I
> > > > > > > > > determined
> > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was
> > cold,
> > > I
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate
> for
> > > the
> > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > being
> > > > > > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If
I
> > > don't
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves
to
> > the
> > > > hot
> > > > > > > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's
> heated
> > > > > garage
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car
is
> > > > running
> > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > now?
> > > > > > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search
> on
> > > Red
> > > > > Hot
> > > > > > > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this
> > thread
> > > > > near
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions
as
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > cause.
> > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing
> > > retarded,
> > > > > > burnt
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I
was
> > > > > wondering
> > > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the
> valve
> > > > > > clearance
> > > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together?
If
> > > it's
> > > > > too
> > > > > > > > tight,
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start
to
> > > float
> > > > > (not
> > > > > > > > seat
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
> > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > 4
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4
after
> > > > turning
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully
> > > warmed
> > > > up
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be
> > slightly
> > > > > > looser
> > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were
> in
> > > > decent
> > > > > > > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because
I
> > > made
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly
> for
> > > 10
> > > > > > miles
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started
> > right
> > > up
> > > > a
> > > > > > few
> > > > > > > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems
> > that
> > > I
> > > > > had
> > > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply
> > warmed
> > > > it
> > > > > up
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on
> the
> > > > road
> > > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca>
wrote
> in
> > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold
> vacuum,
> > > it's
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the
> local
> > > > > > wrecker,
> > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all
were
> > > > missing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to
> reverse
> > > the
> > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the
> > problem.
> > > > The
> > > > > > 86
> > > > > > > > > model
> > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy
a
> > new
> > > > > part
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow
(100
> > Kph)
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote
> in
> > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack
of
> > > > advance
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much
unburned
> > HCs.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a
> separate
> > > part
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down
> right
> > > > now).
> > > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic
tranny,
> > the
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local
> junkyard
> > > for
> > > > a
> > > > > > lot
> > > > > > > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the
> > TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article
> > > > (V1-30-002)
> > > > > > > > > explaining
> > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with
> lots
> > of
> > > > > > > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is
> for
> > > > > normal
> > > > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance
> > when
> > > > the
> > > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell
> from
> > > your
> > > > > > > > > description
> > > > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no
> > > suction
> > > > at
> > > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at
> idle.
> > If
> > > > you
> > > > > > rev
> > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose
but
> > not
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the
other
> > is
> > > > > > > therefore
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum
> when
> > > the
> > > > > car
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance
nipple
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have
> cold
> > > > > > > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is
the
> > one
> > > > > that's
> > > > > > > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway
> > > speeds.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
> > > > > temporarily
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold
problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out
the
> O2
> > > > > sensor
> > > > > > > > next.
> > > > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt
> out
> > > > after
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital
> > > voltmeter
> > > > > (not
> > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the
connector
> > > when
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > car
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor,
and
> > the
> > > > > > > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to
> lean
> > > it
> > > > > out.
> > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine.
> > > Aftermarket
> > > > > O2
> > > > > > > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and
a
> > lot
> > > of
> > > > > > > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of
the
> > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing
> > cleaning
> > > > out
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca>
> > wrote
> > > in
> > > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor
> > weights
> > > > > were
> > > > > > > > stuck,
> > > > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights,
> > > spindle
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was
part
> > of
> > > my
> > > > > > > > problem.
> > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned
it
> > up
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the
> > vacuum
> > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > module
> > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line
> > > attached
> > > > to
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a
> hand
> > > > pump)
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > line
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not
very
> > > much,
> > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > 2
> > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The
> car
> > > is
> > > > > > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4
degrees
> > > BTDC,
> > > > > now
> > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing
> > light
> > > > > > > attached,
> > > > > > > > > > revved
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly.
> Before
> > I
> > > > > fixed
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2
> > degrees
> > > > and
> > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine.
Took
> > the
> > > > car
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min,
> > > stopped
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over
> > drive
> > > at
> > > > > > > 100Kph,
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled,
> any
> > > > > > > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>