star raider

My Santa Fe has had a very intermittent valve tap.
Mostly occurs after car sat for a few days, long weekend.
I can start up sounding like the valve will come through the valve cover,
then quiets down.
Does not occur often, and I believe I can feel it as I drive the car.

2 dealers keep making like its nothing, and one even said they have heard
this on cars just started after shipment or after sitting in lot. They are
normalizing the problem.

They also keep indicating that their oil filter, which has a drain back
valve it, is significantly different and hold the oil pressure up in the
hydraulic valves better than any other OEM equiv filter. I'm sure there is
some truth to this oil filter theory.
but....
I have had this tap issue when using the dealer provided Hyundai filter, and
oil, or those provided from the Jiffy lube type places. So I can argue that
the Hyundai filter is NOT any better.


However. how can any design allow for such random valve tapping problem? I
can fathom that this is viewed as normal.

Is anyone else getting this tapping issue?

Ívar Pétur Guđnason

How often do you change the oil? I used to have a similar problem on a
Subaru (boxer engine). If the oil was not changed every 7500 kms or so, it
developed valve tapping.

Ivar Petur


"star raider" <noreply.@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:1108319828.f3df36b5c15cd68785a98627de404d9d@t eranews...
> My Santa Fe has had a very intermittent valve tap.
> Mostly occurs after car sat for a few days, long weekend.
> I can start up sounding like the valve will come through the valve cover,
> then quiets down.
> Does not occur often, and I believe I can feel it as I drive the car.
>
> 2 dealers keep making like its nothing, and one even said they have heard
> this on cars just started after shipment or after sitting in lot. They are
> normalizing the problem.
>
> They also keep indicating that their oil filter, which has a drain back
> valve it, is significantly different and hold the oil pressure up in the
> hydraulic valves better than any other OEM equiv filter. I'm sure there is
> some truth to this oil filter theory.
> but....
> I have had this tap issue when using the dealer provided Hyundai filter,
> and oil, or those provided from the Jiffy lube type places. So I can argue
> that the Hyundai filter is NOT any better.
>
>
> However. how can any design allow for such random valve tapping problem? I
> can fathom that this is viewed as normal.
>
> Is anyone else getting this tapping issue?
>
>
>

star raider

Intresting thought....

I do change the oil at 3000 mile intervals. But what you mentioned may
indicate that it can be related to the oil quality or vicostity.....
Note: If these cars are doing this right from the factory, then I would
wonder if the factory recommend oil is not good enough.



"Ívar Pétur Guđnason" <ipg@REMOVETHISsimnet.is> wrote in message
news:cuq9kp$rlu$1@news.simnet.is...
> How often do you change the oil? I used to have a similar problem on a
> Subaru (boxer engine). If the oil was not changed every 7500 kms or so, it
> developed valve tapping.
>
> Ivar Petur
>
>
> "star raider" <noreply.@noreply.com> wrote in message
> news:1108319828.f3df36b5c15cd68785a98627de404d9d@t eranews...
>> My Santa Fe has had a very intermittent valve tap.
>> Mostly occurs after car sat for a few days, long weekend.
>> I can start up sounding like the valve will come through the valve cover,
>> then quiets down.
>> Does not occur often, and I believe I can feel it as I drive the car.
>>
>> 2 dealers keep making like its nothing, and one even said they have heard
>> this on cars just started after shipment or after sitting in lot. They
>> are normalizing the problem.
>>
>> They also keep indicating that their oil filter, which has a drain back
>> valve it, is significantly different and hold the oil pressure up in the
>> hydraulic valves better than any other OEM equiv filter. I'm sure there
>> is some truth to this oil filter theory.
>> but....
>> I have had this tap issue when using the dealer provided Hyundai filter,
>> and oil, or those provided from the Jiffy lube type places. So I can
>> argue that the Hyundai filter is NOT any better.
>>
>>
>> However. how can any design allow for such random valve tapping problem?
>> I can fathom that this is viewed as normal.
>>
>> Is anyone else getting this tapping issue?
>>
>>
>>
>
>

hyundaitech

I'm pretty much in agreement with the dealers' opinions. When you turn the
engine off, some of the valves remain open, placing a significant amount of
pressure on the lifters. This pressure on the lifters of the open valves
over a significant amount of time (days) will actually push some of the
oil out of the lifter and it will collapse a little bit, resulting in the
noise you hear. On a start after an overnight sit, I would expect the
noise to go away after a minute or less. After a several day sit, driving
a few miles may be necessary. If the noise remains after the times
specified above, then I'd think you may have some sort of issue with oil
delivery to the lifters. Lack of an anti-drainback valve in the filter
can grossly exaggerate this problem.

star raider

Interesting feedback.
Hyundaitech....you have answered many things in this forum, and I value your
honest technical answers. I appreciate your support. Please continue your
efforts in this forum.

I spoke in further detail with the service manager at my dealer. After
leaving the car with them for 2 weeks, they did manage to start and hear the
problem. In fact the service manager said he shut it off, and
restarted....and it flooded because one of the valves were stuck. He had to
restart holding the gas pedal down to the floor to clear the flooded
condition. At that time, I had a OEM equiv filter in the car.
I asked them to change the oil&filter and retest. This time after a few days
of sitting, there was no valve tap.

As it was always a random occupancy, I am still not convinced.
Perhaps the bleedback/check valve does not hold pressure the same way in the
OEM equiv. filter?
check/drainback valves are common in OEM filters and the manf of these
filters are well aware of the valve req.
What are the detailed OEM specs on the drainback valve, so one can compare
with other filters?
Perhaps a combination of the Hyundai Ofilter & quality of oil makes a
difference?

I think Hyundai needs to really dig into and identify this issue, and if any
damage to the car is happening because the valves don't open do to
hydrolytic pressure loss. I need to know that no damage will occur because
of pressure loss.....
Either way, Hyundai needs to make it clear, not obscure, that value tapping
will result and/or damage will occur if such & such filters and oil are
used.....etc. A service bulletin should clarify, not cover up the
characteristic valve tap of this issue.

Anyway, I now have a Hyundai filter and Mobil 1 oil in the car and will be
listening at every restart.
I bought several Hyundai oil filters to keep on hand and will try a few
brand oils and see if there is any difference.

I will post my findings at a later date, meanwhile let me know if you have
any further details



After oil change and Hyundai filter, they didn't hear the issue
"hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> wrote in message
news:9ebc3966a9395746326d29565eff93ab@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
> I'm pretty much in agreement with the dealers' opinions. When you turn
> the
> engine off, some of the valves remain open, placing a significant amount
> of
> pressure on the lifters. This pressure on the lifters of the open valves
> over a significant amount of time (days) will actually push some of the
> oil out of the lifter and it will collapse a little bit, resulting in the
> noise you hear. On a start after an overnight sit, I would expect the
> noise to go away after a minute or less. After a several day sit, driving
> a few miles may be necessary. If the noise remains after the times
> specified above, then I'd think you may have some sort of issue with oil
> delivery to the lifters. Lack of an anti-drainback valve in the filter
> can grossly exaggerate this problem.
>

Striker

I purchaced a 2004 Santa Fe LX W/ 3.5 L, so far no problems @ 6000 miles.
The first Santa Fe I test drove had the same valve rapping problem, it
sounded really bad. I told the salesman that there had to be a problem with
the engine and he responded that he heard others that rapped the same way
and that they took the car back to the shop and did something to it to cure
the problem. The one I purchased has never tapped even after sitting for a
whole week. Using Mobil 1 5W30 W/ Hyundai filters

Edward Hayes

What you are hearing is valve lifter noise and not valve noise. Not
uncommon in any engine with hydraulic lifter if the engine has sat
long,: even overnight. The noise should go away though after a minute
or so when the lifter fills with oil. IMHO this is so common as to be
a non-issue and certainly no damage is done. ed
"star raider" <noreply.@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:1108319828.f3df36b5c15cd68785a98627de404d9d@t eranews...
> My Santa Fe has had a very intermittent valve tap.
> Mostly occurs after car sat for a few days, long weekend.
> I can start up sounding like the valve will come through the valve
> cover, then quiets down.
> Does not occur often, and I believe I can feel it as I drive the
> car.
>
> 2 dealers keep making like its nothing, and one even said they have
> heard this on cars just started after shipment or after sitting in
> lot. They are normalizing the problem.
>
> They also keep indicating that their oil filter, which has a drain
> back valve it, is significantly different and hold the oil pressure
> up in the hydraulic valves better than any other OEM equiv filter.
> I'm sure there is some truth to this oil filter theory.
> but....
> I have had this tap issue when using the dealer provided Hyundai
> filter, and oil, or those provided from the Jiffy lube type places.
> So I can argue that the Hyundai filter is NOT any better.
>
>
> However. how can any design allow for such random valve tapping
> problem? I can fathom that this is viewed as normal.
>
> Is anyone else getting this tapping issue?
>
>
>

hyundaitech

It sounds like the dealer may be onto something if the tap hasn't happened
again. I'd continue monitoring. Unfortunately Hyundai does not provide
any information on the relief valve in the filter. An anti-drainback
valve is rather simple in that it only allows the oil to flow in one
direction.

You can pretty much trust that if this issue were causing significant
engine damage, Hyundai would be all over trying to find the cause. That
would cost them lots of warranty dollars in a hurry. In fact, Hyundai has
done a commendable job of monitoring quality and making design revisions to
prevent new parts from having the same problems as the old parts.

I've not seen any tsb's regarding the proper oil filter. I agree it would
be much easier to determine what would be acceptable if Hyundai were to
openly publish the design specs. But it's also not their responsibility
to test many of the aftermarket filters to see if they meet Hyundai's
requirements. I've heard rumors about the really tiny Fram (and possibly
other brand) filters starving engines for oil, but my sources are very
doubtable, so at this point I hesitate to state that as fact. I have no
problem using Fram filters on my personal vehicle as long as it is the
proper filter for my car. I think it would be a good idea within the
warranty period to continue using the Hyundai filters. That way, if
anything does happen, even if it's the fault of the filter, it will still
be warrantable. If Hyundai believes an aftermarket filter to be at fault,
you'll have to fight just to see if you can get them to consider repair
under warranty.

theta

star raider wrote:
> My Santa Fe has had a very intermittent valve tap.
> Mostly occurs after car sat for a few days, long weekend.
> I can start up sounding like the valve will come through the valve
cover,
> then quiets down.
> Does not occur often, and I believe I can feel it as I drive the car.
>
> 2 dealers keep making like its nothing, and one even said they have
heard
> this on cars just started after shipment or after sitting in lot.
They are
> normalizing the problem.
>
> They also keep indicating that their oil filter, which has a drain
back
> valve it, is significantly different and hold the oil pressure up in
the
> hydraulic valves better than any other OEM equiv filter. I'm sure

The "valve" in the oil filter has nothing to do with holding the oil
pressure up in the hydraulicc lash adjusters(HLA) located way up in the
cylinder head. It just helps the oil reach the top of the engine
faster.

> there is
> some truth to this oil filter theory.
> but....
> I have had this tap issue when using the dealer provided Hyundai
filter, and
> oil, or those provided from the Jiffy lube type places. So I can
argue that
> the Hyundai filter is NOT any better.
>
>
> However. how can any design allow for such random valve tapping
problem? I
> can fathom that this is viewed as normal.
>
> Is anyone else getting this tapping issue?

Does it happen when the engine is at normal operating temp., idling?

theta

hyundaitech wrote:
> I'm pretty much in agreement with the dealers' opinions. When you
turn the
> engine off, some of the valves remain open, placing a significant
amount of
> pressure on the lifters. This pressure on the lifters of the open
valves
> over a significant amount of time (days) will actually push some of
the
> oil out of the lifter and it will collapse a little bit, resulting in
the
> noise you hear. On a start after an overnight sit, I would expect
the
> noise to go away after a minute or less. After a several day sit,

No, it shouldn't take that long, "hyundaitech".

>driving
> a few miles may be necessary. If the noise remains after the times
> specified above, then I'd think you may have some sort of issue with
oil
> delivery to the lifters. Lack of an anti-drainback valve in the
filter
> can grossly exaggerate this problem.

theta

hyundaitech wrote:
> It sounds like the dealer may be onto something if the tap hasn't
happened
> again. I'd continue monitoring. Unfortunately Hyundai does not
provide
> any information on the relief valve in the filter. An anti-drainback
> valve is rather simple in that it only allows the oil to flow in one
> direction.
>
> You can pretty much trust that if this issue were causing significant
> engine damage, Hyundai would be all over trying to find the cause.
That
> would cost them lots of warranty dollars in a hurry. In fact,
Hyundai has
> done a commendable job of monitoring quality and making design
revisions to
> prevent new parts from having the same problems as the old parts.
>
> I've not seen any tsb's regarding the proper oil filter. I agree it
would
> be much easier to determine what would be acceptable if Hyundai were
to
> openly publish the design specs. But it's also not their

Very interesting, "hyundaitech".
So what specific design specs are we looking for here?

Bonus question:

why did you stop posting on Kia and Pontiac newsgroups altogether in
Aug. last year?
Don't ya think there are a lot more Pontiac owners need your help,
"hyundaitech"?


>responsibility
> to test many of the aftermarket filters to see if they meet Hyundai's
> requirements. I've heard rumors about the really tiny Fram (and
possibly
> other brand) filters starving engines for oil, but my sources are
very
> doubtable, so at this point I hesitate to state that as fact. I have
no
> problem using Fram filters on my personal vehicle as long as it is
the
> proper filter for my car. I think it would be a good idea within the
> warranty period to continue using the Hyundai filters. That way, if
> anything does happen, even if it's the fault of the filter, it will
still
> be warrantable. If Hyundai believes an aftermarket filter to be at
fault,
> you'll have to fight just to see if you can get them to consider
repair
> under warranty.

hyundaitech

The design specs that would be of interest:
1. Maximum flow through oil filter
2. Amount of filter material
3. Type of filter material
4. Smallest particle which filter material will allow to pass
5. Pressure at which bypass valve in filter opens
6. Presence of anti-drainback valve.
That's what I can think of off the top of my head.

And off topic, I stopped reading and posting in the GM and Kia sections
because I was spending too much time on the newsgroup. I cut it back to
something more manageable. Are there people in those other groups who
desparately need my advice?

theta

hyundaitech wrote:
> The design specs that would be of interest:
> 1. Maximum flow through oil filter
> 2. Amount of filter material
> 3. Type of filter material
> 4. Smallest particle which filter material will allow to pass
> 5. Pressure at which bypass valve in filter opens
> 6. Presence of anti-drainback valve.
> That's what I can think of off the top of my head.
>
> And off topic, I stopped reading and posting in the GM and Kia
sections
> because I was spending too much time on the newsgroup. I cut it back
to
> something more manageable. Are there people in those other groups
who
> desparately need my advice?

And why Hyundai/Kia/Pontiac newsgroups only until Aug. 2004? Was it
because you were working at a Hyundai/kia/Pontiac-GMC dealership?

kaboom

On 16 Feb 2005 14:45:01 -0800, "theta" <theta00k@yahoo.com> wrote:

>hyundaitech wrote:
>> The design specs that would be of interest:
>> 1. Maximum flow through oil filter
>> 2. Amount of filter material
>> 3. Type of filter material
>> 4. Smallest particle which filter material will allow to pass
>> 5. Pressure at which bypass valve in filter opens
>> 6. Presence of anti-drainback valve.
>> That's what I can think of off the top of my head.
>>
>> And off topic, I stopped reading and posting in the GM and Kia
>sections
>> because I was spending too much time on the newsgroup. I cut it back
>to
>> something more manageable. Are there people in those other groups
>who
>> desparately need my advice?
>
>And why Hyundai/Kia/Pontiac newsgroups only until Aug. 2004? Was it
>because you were working at a Hyundai/kia/Pontiac-GMC dealership?

**Who gives a ? He's here now and he's a great asset to this NG.
You sound like a jealous old woman.


kaboomie

theta

kaboom wrote:
> On 16 Feb 2005 14:45:01 -0800, "theta" <theta00k@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >hyundaitech wrote:
> >> The design specs that would be of interest:
> >> 1. Maximum flow through oil filter
> >> 2. Amount of filter material
> >> 3. Type of filter material
> >> 4. Smallest particle which filter material will allow to pass
> >> 5. Pressure at which bypass valve in filter opens
> >> 6. Presence of anti-drainback valve.
> >> That's what I can think of off the top of my head.
> >>
> >> And off topic, I stopped reading and posting in the GM and Kia
> >sections
> >> because I was spending too much time on the newsgroup. I cut it
back
> >to
> >> something more manageable. Are there people in those other groups
> >who
> >> desparately need my advice?
> >
> >And why Hyundai/Kia/Pontiac newsgroups only until Aug. 2004? Was it
> >because you were working at a Hyundai/kia/Pontiac-GMC dealership?
>
> **Who gives a ? He's here now and he's a great asset to this NG.
> You sound like a jealous old woman.
>
>
> kaboomie

Could you ask him how he finds tim to post here during working hours if
he is a full-time working tech? I doubt the service bays have an
Internet connection.