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SOS to Hyundai Tech [engine rattle/ping, carbon on spark plugs; rear brake thumping]
Hi,
First off, I know this post looks long - my apologies! - but as you can see upon closer inspection I've broken the text into a lot of bullet points to make it an easy read. General Question With respect to the following two mechanical mysteries, am I too far along to file for Hyundai arbitration? Or might there be solutions? Car Stats: 2001 Elantra GLS Automatic Stock everything Only OEM parts (including oil filters) ABS/TCS 4-wheel disc brakes First Longstanding Problem: · An acceleration rattle started around 150-300 miles and is growing worse with time · This frog-in-the-throat sound takes place under acceleration and low RPMS (up to about 40mph - then it either goes away or engine noise drowns it out). · I hear no abnormal engine noise when completely stopped at a light. · This acceleration rattle lasts 10-20 minutes in duration, whereas it used to last less than 5 minutes. · The noise is worse when engine is cold or car was previously driven roughly 2-4 hours beforehand. · The sound seems louder in cool/damp weather [winter fuel blend????] · It is not so obvious in hot, dry summer weather [summe fuel blend????] · Gas brand and octane rating makes no difference [that I can tell] · I have a 2mpg drop in fuel efficiency (the car only makes about 20-21mpgs in city driving for past two years or so). · Just this past week: Dealer replaced OEM Spark Plugs with NKGs (same spec). Original plugs were carbon-fouled though there is less than 30K on odometer and these are supposed to last 100,000 miles (but car is 5yrs old so could this still be "normal"?). Dealer blames carbon deposits on bad gas, not on whatever causes the engine rattle or ping in the first place. · I've never seen a CEL entire time I've owned the car. Beginning to think one or more sensors don't "talk" to the computer since there is a problem everyone can hear yet it never trips a check engine light. Dealer seems to be of the general philosophy that if a check engine light isn't on, there is no problem. On the other hand, everyone who has heard the problem doesn't deny it (including the corporate rep). · Dealer efforts to fix or explain problem include: Heat sheild "tightened". "Cold selenoids are noisy" (tech tells me in 2001). Dealer finally agrees to measure valve clearance (first one in 2002 normal, second one in 2004 "out of spec", final one conducted the very next day by Hyundai corporate rep finds "no problem"). Next told that I am hearing lifters and this is a normal sound until oil gets from pan to lifters (true, I hear lifter noise but that lasts about a minute at startup whereas the other noise seems to be related to acceleration). Little over a year ago this same Hyundai rep checked my car's thrust washer/bearing (no sign of metal debris, no problem found (NPF). Hyundai Customer Service Hotline alerts me to Exhaust Manifold recall: Dealer checked but finds no sign of cracks so they did NOT replace exhaust manifold. Motor mount replaced over a year ago - no change or improvement on noise. · What I've done: Tried oil additive. Tried higher octane (a few years back - didn't notice an improvement). Tried gas additive - injector cleaner?-about two years ago (only resulted in rough idle and misfiring engine).Been using 10/40 oil instead of 10/30, which is what the dealer uses at oil changes. My Impression Based upon what I've been told about the condition of my spark plugs - despite only 30K on the odometer - it sounds like a case of "spark knock". I suspect either a bad knock sensor that the car's computer doesn't receive valid data from or a sticky valve lifter or bad valve guide. I've also heard, though, that a rattle or pinging type sound in the engine can come from the timing belt tensioner. It IS true that when I lift the hood I hear some tapping from under the plastic cover. So can anyone vouch for that theory? Second Longstanding Problem · I have ABS and four-wheel disc brakes. Almost since Day One I hear the rear brake/wheel thumping at stops, which oddly enough sounds almost like someone stuck in the trunk and pounding lower right side of the car body with a fist! There are two things that bring on the thumping sound: · Sitting at a stop with my foot resting too lightly on the pedal - in which case if I let up or stomp down harder the thumping noises disappear. · Second, I sometimes hear the same noise after I first pull into my driveway, put the car into park and pull up the emergency brake. It goes on about 30 seconds and anyone standing on the driveway or sidewalk when it occurs can hear the sound too. · The dealer has been unable to reproduce the noise and so they have done little or no diagnostic work. · Last week I had my car in for an oil change and now the dealer says my rear brakes are in need of replacement but not the front. A year ago I had 50 percent remaining on the front and 30 percent remaining on the back brake pads. Now I have 20 percent left on the rear of the car (but they didn't tell me the figure on the front.) The dealer wants me to pay for rear brakes even though they admit that the front brake pads should wear out somewhat faster than the rears. My Impression Normally, I would agree that brakes are wear-and-tear items and I should foot the bill. But based on a conversation with an independent mechanic, I feel some or all of this should fall under my warranty. Reason: The independent mechanic told me that if there is more than 10 percent discrepancy between the wear on the front and rear brake pads - which is true in my case - than there is a possibility that something is grabbing or the ABS is kicking in when it should not be and wearing down the rear brakes prematurely. As stated, I've been hearing this brake thumping on an intermittent basis for years and it is on record at my dealer that I've complained of it. So who should pay? For that matter, what could cause disc brakes to do this? Could the rotor be warped? What else might cause this noise? CONCLUSION - I need all the help I can get!!!!!!!!!! My dealer can't seem to put two and two together. Meanwhile, I've been visiting Hyundai forums for years to try to get a leg up or a helpful word of advice (which diagnostics to perform and in what order, for example). The only Hyundai discussion I've come across that seems to have REAL Hyundai techs is HERE, so I'm hoping I that if you are one of them you can reply to this post (thank you!). Can anyone else reading this post relate? If so, was there a solution to a similar problem on your car? |
Re: SOS to Hyundai Tech [engine rattle/ping, carbon on spark plugs;rear brake thumping]
NewsView wrote:
> With respect to the following two mechanical mysteries, am I too far > along to file for Hyundai arbitration? Or might there be solutions? It depends on your state, but I suspect that after 5 years you are way out of range of invoking any sort of lemon law. > · This acceleration rattle lasts 10-20 minutes in duration, whereas > it used to last less than 5 minutes. How do you accelerate for 10-20 minutes? > · The noise is worse when engine is cold or car was previously driven > roughly 2-4 hours beforehand. > > · The sound seems louder in cool/damp weather [winter fuel blend????] > > · It is not so obvious in hot, dry summer weather [summe fuel > blend????] > > · Gas brand and octane rating makes no difference [that I can tell] > > · I have a 2mpg drop in fuel efficiency (the car only makes about > 20-21mpgs in city driving for past two years or so). > > · Just this past week: Dealer replaced OEM Spark Plugs with NKGs > (same spec). Original plugs were carbon-fouled though there is less > than 30K on odometer and these are supposed to last 100,000 miles (but > car is 5yrs old so could this still be "normal"?). Dealer blames carbon > deposits on bad gas, not on whatever causes the engine rattle or ping > in the first place. I suppose it could be detonation or preignition, but it seems the dealer would be able to tell that. Have you tride another dealer? > · What I've done: Tried oil additive. Tried higher octane (a few > years back - didn't notice an improvement). Tried gas additive - > injector cleaner?-about two years ago (only resulted in rough idle > and misfiring engine).Been using 10/40 oil instead of 10/30, which is > what the dealer uses at oil changes. Using 10W40 is not smart at all. It is well known to cause sludge and other problems which is my most auto makers have recommended against it for at least a decade. You should use what the owner's manual recommends. This would void your warranty and likely pretty much remove any chance of a claim against Hyundai. > Second Longstanding Problem > > · I have ABS and four-wheel disc brakes. Almost since Day One I hear > the rear brake/wheel thumping at stops, which oddly enough sounds > almost like someone stuck in the trunk and pounding lower right side of > the car body with a fist! > > There are two things that bring on the thumping sound: > > · Sitting at a stop with my foot resting too lightly on the pedal - > in which case if I let up or stomp down harder the thumping noises > disappear. > > · Second, I sometimes hear the same noise after I first pull into my > driveway, put the car into park and pull up the emergency brake. It > goes on about 30 seconds and anyone standing on the driveway or > sidewalk when it occurs can hear the sound too. I can't imagine what would cause this other than some issue with the ABS system. I've never heard of this sort of problem before. > · The dealer has been unable to reproduce the noise and so they have > done little or no diagnostic work. It is hard to fix what you can't see or hear. > · Last week I had my car in for an oil change and now the dealer says > my rear brakes are in need of replacement but not the front. A year ago > I had 50 percent remaining on the front and 30 percent remaining on the > back brake pads. Now I have 20 percent left on the rear of the car (but > they didn't tell me the figure on the front.) The dealer wants me to > pay for rear brakes even though they admit that the front brake pads > should wear out somewhat faster than the rears. Very few cars wear out the brakes evenly. Most of my cars wear out the front pads faster, but not all. > Normally, I would agree that brakes are wear-and-tear items and I > should foot the bill. But based on a conversation with an independent > mechanic, I feel some or all of this should fall under my warranty. > Reason: The independent mechanic told me that if there is more than 10 > percent discrepancy between the wear on the front and rear brake pads > - which is true in my case - than there is a possibility that > something is grabbing or the ABS is kicking in when it should not be > and wearing down the rear brakes prematurely. As stated, I've been > hearing this brake thumping on an intermittent basis for years and it > is on record at my dealer that I've complained of it. So who should > pay? For that matter, what could cause disc brakes to do this? Could > the rotor be warped? What else might cause this noise? You didn't say how many miles are on the car, only that it has less than 30K so it is hard to say if this is reasonably wear or not. If you are close to 30K and drive in the city much, then this is very good brake life. Your independent mechanic doesn't have a clue if he thinks that front and rear brakes will wear out within 10% of each other. I've never in 30 years owned a car that had brake wear even close to that even between front and rear. Often side to side isn't even that close. If the noise is occurring when you are sitting still as you say, then it can't be "warped" rotors as they aren't moving when the car is still. > CONCLUSION - I need all the help I can get!!!!!!!!!! And you need to read your owner's manual and use the correct oil. > My dealer can't seem to put two and two together. Meanwhile, I've been > visiting Hyundai forums for years to try to get a leg up or a helpful > word of advice (which diagnostics to perform and in what order, for > example). The only Hyundai discussion I've come across that seems to > have REAL Hyundai techs is HERE, so I'm hoping I that if you are one of > them you can reply to this post (thank you!). I would try a different dealer if the one you have been using isn't giving you satisfaction. Matt |
Re: SOS to Hyundai Tech [engine rattle/ping, carbon on spark plugs;rear brake thumping]
NewsView wrote:
> With respect to the following two mechanical mysteries, am I too far > along to file for Hyundai arbitration? Or might there be solutions? It depends on your state, but I suspect that after 5 years you are way out of range of invoking any sort of lemon law. > · This acceleration rattle lasts 10-20 minutes in duration, whereas > it used to last less than 5 minutes. How do you accelerate for 10-20 minutes? > · The noise is worse when engine is cold or car was previously driven > roughly 2-4 hours beforehand. > > · The sound seems louder in cool/damp weather [winter fuel blend????] > > · It is not so obvious in hot, dry summer weather [summe fuel > blend????] > > · Gas brand and octane rating makes no difference [that I can tell] > > · I have a 2mpg drop in fuel efficiency (the car only makes about > 20-21mpgs in city driving for past two years or so). > > · Just this past week: Dealer replaced OEM Spark Plugs with NKGs > (same spec). Original plugs were carbon-fouled though there is less > than 30K on odometer and these are supposed to last 100,000 miles (but > car is 5yrs old so could this still be "normal"?). Dealer blames carbon > deposits on bad gas, not on whatever causes the engine rattle or ping > in the first place. I suppose it could be detonation or preignition, but it seems the dealer would be able to tell that. Have you tride another dealer? > · What I've done: Tried oil additive. Tried higher octane (a few > years back - didn't notice an improvement). Tried gas additive - > injector cleaner?-about two years ago (only resulted in rough idle > and misfiring engine).Been using 10/40 oil instead of 10/30, which is > what the dealer uses at oil changes. Using 10W40 is not smart at all. It is well known to cause sludge and other problems which is my most auto makers have recommended against it for at least a decade. You should use what the owner's manual recommends. This would void your warranty and likely pretty much remove any chance of a claim against Hyundai. > Second Longstanding Problem > > · I have ABS and four-wheel disc brakes. Almost since Day One I hear > the rear brake/wheel thumping at stops, which oddly enough sounds > almost like someone stuck in the trunk and pounding lower right side of > the car body with a fist! > > There are two things that bring on the thumping sound: > > · Sitting at a stop with my foot resting too lightly on the pedal - > in which case if I let up or stomp down harder the thumping noises > disappear. > > · Second, I sometimes hear the same noise after I first pull into my > driveway, put the car into park and pull up the emergency brake. It > goes on about 30 seconds and anyone standing on the driveway or > sidewalk when it occurs can hear the sound too. I can't imagine what would cause this other than some issue with the ABS system. I've never heard of this sort of problem before. > · The dealer has been unable to reproduce the noise and so they have > done little or no diagnostic work. It is hard to fix what you can't see or hear. > · Last week I had my car in for an oil change and now the dealer says > my rear brakes are in need of replacement but not the front. A year ago > I had 50 percent remaining on the front and 30 percent remaining on the > back brake pads. Now I have 20 percent left on the rear of the car (but > they didn't tell me the figure on the front.) The dealer wants me to > pay for rear brakes even though they admit that the front brake pads > should wear out somewhat faster than the rears. Very few cars wear out the brakes evenly. Most of my cars wear out the front pads faster, but not all. > Normally, I would agree that brakes are wear-and-tear items and I > should foot the bill. But based on a conversation with an independent > mechanic, I feel some or all of this should fall under my warranty. > Reason: The independent mechanic told me that if there is more than 10 > percent discrepancy between the wear on the front and rear brake pads > - which is true in my case - than there is a possibility that > something is grabbing or the ABS is kicking in when it should not be > and wearing down the rear brakes prematurely. As stated, I've been > hearing this brake thumping on an intermittent basis for years and it > is on record at my dealer that I've complained of it. So who should > pay? For that matter, what could cause disc brakes to do this? Could > the rotor be warped? What else might cause this noise? You didn't say how many miles are on the car, only that it has less than 30K so it is hard to say if this is reasonably wear or not. If you are close to 30K and drive in the city much, then this is very good brake life. Your independent mechanic doesn't have a clue if he thinks that front and rear brakes will wear out within 10% of each other. I've never in 30 years owned a car that had brake wear even close to that even between front and rear. Often side to side isn't even that close. If the noise is occurring when you are sitting still as you say, then it can't be "warped" rotors as they aren't moving when the car is still. > CONCLUSION - I need all the help I can get!!!!!!!!!! And you need to read your owner's manual and use the correct oil. > My dealer can't seem to put two and two together. Meanwhile, I've been > visiting Hyundai forums for years to try to get a leg up or a helpful > word of advice (which diagnostics to perform and in what order, for > example). The only Hyundai discussion I've come across that seems to > have REAL Hyundai techs is HERE, so I'm hoping I that if you are one of > them you can reply to this post (thank you!). I would try a different dealer if the one you have been using isn't giving you satisfaction. Matt |
Re: Matt - Five years of READING everything, including my owners manual!
Hi Matt,
On the one hand, I appreciate your attempt to jump in and help. On the other hand, why assume I haven't done my homework - need I make my already thorough post twice as long to cover all the basis to explain the following? First, I would't be here if I hadn't read the owner's manual cover-to-cover. I also have the Haynes guide, too. Plus, my owners manual says that 10/40 is within range for my car, AND the dealer is the one putting it into my engine! This oil is the only one rated to withstand the harsh heat of my geographic area. I wouldn't use 10/40 in snow country, but I don't live in snow country. Likewise, you don't want 5W oil in 120 degree heat in parts of the desert Southwest. I've had people tell me to use 5W30, but that's not even mentioned in my owner's manual. So I have to assume that the newer Elantras might have different specs if they are permitting that range in their engines. (I have the engine with the shims and not the newer hydraulic lifter engine.) Last but not least, I had an immediate family member that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than most of the service advisors I deal with. Oil preferences cut both ways. There are two schools of thought - one says if you use lighter weight oil it coats the lifters more quickly at startup. The other says if you use heavier weight oil it won't drain off the lifters so fast. At delivery the car and the dealer was using 10/30 but I bumped up to 10/40 in response to this problem. I've since bounced between the two and haven't noticed any real difference in terms of engine noise (except that the rattle is worse in cool and damp weather whereas in hot, dry weather it is much less pronounced). Also, how do you assume my problem is sludge build up given that the noise started when the car had only about 150-300 miles on it and still contained the original factory oil? Just the same, I would be open to 5W30 but my owner's manual doesn't even list that weight on the chart - so no, I have no interest in voiding the warranty. As for how I accelerate - easy. I stop for a light. Accelerate. Stop for another light. Accelerate. The noise stops at the stop sign and picks up again when my foot is back on the gas pedal. Between 10-20 minutes later the engine noise is gone. Remember, I pointed out that the corporate rep didn't even try to deny that there is a problem - he heard it and tried to fix it without success. If you are going to call someone on the carpet, why not them? They're supposed to be the experts - wheras from a consumer perspective I've gone above and beyond the call of duty to be patient with the dealer and to self educate myself so that I can be of constructive use to them as opposed to screaming, yelling or burning bridges (which is what most people in my shoes would have done within the first two years let alone five years of this nonsense). As for lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for me to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year factory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration - though not lemon law - might still be an option. I appreciate anyone who can help. Matt Whiting wrote: > NewsView wrote: > > > With respect to the following two mechanical mysteries, am I too far > > along to file for Hyundai arbitration? Or might there be solutions? > > It depends on your state, but I suspect that after 5 years you are way > out of range of invoking any sort of lemon law. > > > > · This acceleration rattle lasts 10-20 minutes in duration, whereas > > it used to last less than 5 minutes. > > How do you accelerate for 10-20 minutes? > > > > · The noise is worse when engine is cold or car was previously driven > > roughly 2-4 hours beforehand. > > > > · The sound seems louder in cool/damp weather [winter fuel blend????] > > > > · It is not so obvious in hot, dry summer weather [summe fuel > > blend????] > > > > · Gas brand and octane rating makes no difference [that I can tell] > > > > · I have a 2mpg drop in fuel efficiency (the car only makes about > > 20-21mpgs in city driving for past two years or so). > > > > · Just this past week: Dealer replaced OEM Spark Plugs with NKGs > > (same spec). Original plugs were carbon-fouled though there is less > > than 30K on odometer and these are supposed to last 100,000 miles (but > > car is 5yrs old so could this still be "normal"?). Dealer blames carbon > > deposits on bad gas, not on whatever causes the engine rattle or ping > > in the first place. > > I suppose it could be detonation or preignition, but it seems the dealer > would be able to tell that. Have you tride another dealer? > > > > · What I've done: Tried oil additive. Tried higher octane (a few > > years back - didn't notice an improvement). Tried gas additive - > > injector cleaner?-about two years ago (only resulted in rough idle > > and misfiring engine).Been using 10/40 oil instead of 10/30, which is > > what the dealer uses at oil changes. > > Using 10W40 is not smart at all. It is well known to cause sludge and > other problems which is my most auto makers have recommended against it > for at least a decade. You should use what the owner's manual > recommends. This would void your warranty and likely pretty much remove > any chance of a claim against Hyundai. > > > > Second Longstanding Problem > > > > · I have ABS and four-wheel disc brakes. Almost since Day One I hear > > the rear brake/wheel thumping at stops, which oddly enough sounds > > almost like someone stuck in the trunk and pounding lower right side of > > the car body with a fist! > > > > There are two things that bring on the thumping sound: > > > > · Sitting at a stop with my foot resting too lightly on the pedal - > > in which case if I let up or stomp down harder the thumping noises > > disappear. > > > > · Second, I sometimes hear the same noise after I first pull into my > > driveway, put the car into park and pull up the emergency brake. It > > goes on about 30 seconds and anyone standing on the driveway or > > sidewalk when it occurs can hear the sound too. > > I can't imagine what would cause this other than some issue with the ABS > system. I've never heard of this sort of problem before. > > > > · The dealer has been unable to reproduce the noise and so they have > > done little or no diagnostic work. > > It is hard to fix what you can't see or hear. > > > > · Last week I had my car in for an oil change and now the dealer says > > my rear brakes are in need of replacement but not the front. A year ago > > I had 50 percent remaining on the front and 30 percent remaining on the > > back brake pads. Now I have 20 percent left on the rear of the car (but > > they didn't tell me the figure on the front.) The dealer wants me to > > pay for rear brakes even though they admit that the front brake pads > > should wear out somewhat faster than the rears. > > Very few cars wear out the brakes evenly. Most of my cars wear out the > front pads faster, but not all. > > > > Normally, I would agree that brakes are wear-and-tear items and I > > should foot the bill. But based on a conversation with an independent > > mechanic, I feel some or all of this should fall under my warranty. > > Reason: The independent mechanic told me that if there is more than 10 > > percent discrepancy between the wear on the front and rear brake pads > > - which is true in my case - than there is a possibility that > > something is grabbing or the ABS is kicking in when it should not be > > and wearing down the rear brakes prematurely. As stated, I've been > > hearing this brake thumping on an intermittent basis for years and it > > is on record at my dealer that I've complained of it. So who should > > pay? For that matter, what could cause disc brakes to do this? Could > > the rotor be warped? What else might cause this noise? > > You didn't say how many miles are on the car, only that it has less than > 30K so it is hard to say if this is reasonably wear or not. If you are > close to 30K and drive in the city much, then this is very good brake life. > > Your independent mechanic doesn't have a clue if he thinks that front > and rear brakes will wear out within 10% of each other. I've never in > 30 years owned a car that had brake wear even close to that even between > front and rear. Often side to side isn't even that close. > > If the noise is occurring when you are sitting still as you say, then it > can't be "warped" rotors as they aren't moving when the car is still. > > > > CONCLUSION - I need all the help I can get!!!!!!!!!! > > And you need to read your owner's manual and use the correct oil. > > > > My dealer can't seem to put two and two together. Meanwhile, I've been > > visiting Hyundai forums for years to try to get a leg up or a helpful > > word of advice (which diagnostics to perform and in what order, for > > example). The only Hyundai discussion I've come across that seems to > > have REAL Hyundai techs is HERE, so I'm hoping I that if you are one of > > them you can reply to this post (thank you!). > > I would try a different dealer if the one you have been using isn't > giving you satisfaction. > > Matt |
Re: Matt - Five years of READING everything, including my owners manual!
Hi Matt,
On the one hand, I appreciate your attempt to jump in and help. On the other hand, why assume I haven't done my homework - need I make my already thorough post twice as long to cover all the basis to explain the following? First, I would't be here if I hadn't read the owner's manual cover-to-cover. I also have the Haynes guide, too. Plus, my owners manual says that 10/40 is within range for my car, AND the dealer is the one putting it into my engine! This oil is the only one rated to withstand the harsh heat of my geographic area. I wouldn't use 10/40 in snow country, but I don't live in snow country. Likewise, you don't want 5W oil in 120 degree heat in parts of the desert Southwest. I've had people tell me to use 5W30, but that's not even mentioned in my owner's manual. So I have to assume that the newer Elantras might have different specs if they are permitting that range in their engines. (I have the engine with the shims and not the newer hydraulic lifter engine.) Last but not least, I had an immediate family member that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than most of the service advisors I deal with. Oil preferences cut both ways. There are two schools of thought - one says if you use lighter weight oil it coats the lifters more quickly at startup. The other says if you use heavier weight oil it won't drain off the lifters so fast. At delivery the car and the dealer was using 10/30 but I bumped up to 10/40 in response to this problem. I've since bounced between the two and haven't noticed any real difference in terms of engine noise (except that the rattle is worse in cool and damp weather whereas in hot, dry weather it is much less pronounced). Also, how do you assume my problem is sludge build up given that the noise started when the car had only about 150-300 miles on it and still contained the original factory oil? Just the same, I would be open to 5W30 but my owner's manual doesn't even list that weight on the chart - so no, I have no interest in voiding the warranty. As for how I accelerate - easy. I stop for a light. Accelerate. Stop for another light. Accelerate. The noise stops at the stop sign and picks up again when my foot is back on the gas pedal. Between 10-20 minutes later the engine noise is gone. Remember, I pointed out that the corporate rep didn't even try to deny that there is a problem - he heard it and tried to fix it without success. If you are going to call someone on the carpet, why not them? They're supposed to be the experts - wheras from a consumer perspective I've gone above and beyond the call of duty to be patient with the dealer and to self educate myself so that I can be of constructive use to them as opposed to screaming, yelling or burning bridges (which is what most people in my shoes would have done within the first two years let alone five years of this nonsense). As for lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for me to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year factory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration - though not lemon law - might still be an option. I appreciate anyone who can help. Matt Whiting wrote: > NewsView wrote: > > > With respect to the following two mechanical mysteries, am I too far > > along to file for Hyundai arbitration? Or might there be solutions? > > It depends on your state, but I suspect that after 5 years you are way > out of range of invoking any sort of lemon law. > > > > · This acceleration rattle lasts 10-20 minutes in duration, whereas > > it used to last less than 5 minutes. > > How do you accelerate for 10-20 minutes? > > > > · The noise is worse when engine is cold or car was previously driven > > roughly 2-4 hours beforehand. > > > > · The sound seems louder in cool/damp weather [winter fuel blend????] > > > > · It is not so obvious in hot, dry summer weather [summe fuel > > blend????] > > > > · Gas brand and octane rating makes no difference [that I can tell] > > > > · I have a 2mpg drop in fuel efficiency (the car only makes about > > 20-21mpgs in city driving for past two years or so). > > > > · Just this past week: Dealer replaced OEM Spark Plugs with NKGs > > (same spec). Original plugs were carbon-fouled though there is less > > than 30K on odometer and these are supposed to last 100,000 miles (but > > car is 5yrs old so could this still be "normal"?). Dealer blames carbon > > deposits on bad gas, not on whatever causes the engine rattle or ping > > in the first place. > > I suppose it could be detonation or preignition, but it seems the dealer > would be able to tell that. Have you tride another dealer? > > > > · What I've done: Tried oil additive. Tried higher octane (a few > > years back - didn't notice an improvement). Tried gas additive - > > injector cleaner?-about two years ago (only resulted in rough idle > > and misfiring engine).Been using 10/40 oil instead of 10/30, which is > > what the dealer uses at oil changes. > > Using 10W40 is not smart at all. It is well known to cause sludge and > other problems which is my most auto makers have recommended against it > for at least a decade. You should use what the owner's manual > recommends. This would void your warranty and likely pretty much remove > any chance of a claim against Hyundai. > > > > Second Longstanding Problem > > > > · I have ABS and four-wheel disc brakes. Almost since Day One I hear > > the rear brake/wheel thumping at stops, which oddly enough sounds > > almost like someone stuck in the trunk and pounding lower right side of > > the car body with a fist! > > > > There are two things that bring on the thumping sound: > > > > · Sitting at a stop with my foot resting too lightly on the pedal - > > in which case if I let up or stomp down harder the thumping noises > > disappear. > > > > · Second, I sometimes hear the same noise after I first pull into my > > driveway, put the car into park and pull up the emergency brake. It > > goes on about 30 seconds and anyone standing on the driveway or > > sidewalk when it occurs can hear the sound too. > > I can't imagine what would cause this other than some issue with the ABS > system. I've never heard of this sort of problem before. > > > > · The dealer has been unable to reproduce the noise and so they have > > done little or no diagnostic work. > > It is hard to fix what you can't see or hear. > > > > · Last week I had my car in for an oil change and now the dealer says > > my rear brakes are in need of replacement but not the front. A year ago > > I had 50 percent remaining on the front and 30 percent remaining on the > > back brake pads. Now I have 20 percent left on the rear of the car (but > > they didn't tell me the figure on the front.) The dealer wants me to > > pay for rear brakes even though they admit that the front brake pads > > should wear out somewhat faster than the rears. > > Very few cars wear out the brakes evenly. Most of my cars wear out the > front pads faster, but not all. > > > > Normally, I would agree that brakes are wear-and-tear items and I > > should foot the bill. But based on a conversation with an independent > > mechanic, I feel some or all of this should fall under my warranty. > > Reason: The independent mechanic told me that if there is more than 10 > > percent discrepancy between the wear on the front and rear brake pads > > - which is true in my case - than there is a possibility that > > something is grabbing or the ABS is kicking in when it should not be > > and wearing down the rear brakes prematurely. As stated, I've been > > hearing this brake thumping on an intermittent basis for years and it > > is on record at my dealer that I've complained of it. So who should > > pay? For that matter, what could cause disc brakes to do this? Could > > the rotor be warped? What else might cause this noise? > > You didn't say how many miles are on the car, only that it has less than > 30K so it is hard to say if this is reasonably wear or not. If you are > close to 30K and drive in the city much, then this is very good brake life. > > Your independent mechanic doesn't have a clue if he thinks that front > and rear brakes will wear out within 10% of each other. I've never in > 30 years owned a car that had brake wear even close to that even between > front and rear. Often side to side isn't even that close. > > If the noise is occurring when you are sitting still as you say, then it > can't be "warped" rotors as they aren't moving when the car is still. > > > > CONCLUSION - I need all the help I can get!!!!!!!!!! > > And you need to read your owner's manual and use the correct oil. > > > > My dealer can't seem to put two and two together. Meanwhile, I've been > > visiting Hyundai forums for years to try to get a leg up or a helpful > > word of advice (which diagnostics to perform and in what order, for > > example). The only Hyundai discussion I've come across that seems to > > have REAL Hyundai techs is HERE, so I'm hoping I that if you are one of > > them you can reply to this post (thank you!). > > I would try a different dealer if the one you have been using isn't > giving you satisfaction. > > Matt |
Re: Matt - Five years of READING everything, including my owners manual!
"NewsView" <newsview@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1156714002.677754.172460@74g2000cwt.googlegro ups.com... > Last but not least, I had an immediate family member > that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than > most of the service advisors I deal with. Knowing jargon means absolutely nothing. Your earlier comments about brake wear in the front versus the rear was a clear indicator that you do not really understand much about cars - or at least about brakes. Being able to spout jargon only gets one into trouble if it isn't backed up by real knowledge. Actually, I doubt you really know more jargon than the service advisors - simply based on what you've written. > > > or lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for > to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year > faory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service > records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration > is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply > asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration > - though not lemon law - might still be an option. A usenet newsgroup is not a very good place to come for that advice. Maybe you should take your question to an attorney or to Hyundai directly. -- -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net |
Re: Matt - Five years of READING everything, including my owners manual!
"NewsView" <newsview@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1156714002.677754.172460@74g2000cwt.googlegro ups.com... > Last but not least, I had an immediate family member > that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than > most of the service advisors I deal with. Knowing jargon means absolutely nothing. Your earlier comments about brake wear in the front versus the rear was a clear indicator that you do not really understand much about cars - or at least about brakes. Being able to spout jargon only gets one into trouble if it isn't backed up by real knowledge. Actually, I doubt you really know more jargon than the service advisors - simply based on what you've written. > > > or lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for > to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year > faory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service > records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration > is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply > asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration > - though not lemon law - might still be an option. A usenet newsgroup is not a very good place to come for that advice. Maybe you should take your question to an attorney or to Hyundai directly. -- -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net |
Re: Matt - Five years of READING everything, including my owners manual!
Let's not turn this into another 'pissing contest'. The guy asked some
questions and took the pains to explain in detail his problems. I agree with Matt that I've never had a car in 45 years that had equal brake wear front and rear. All the weight is transferred to the front end on braking so that's where all the wear is. AND Mike is right that the best way to find out about arbitration is to DO IT, if you feel that your problem has not been addressed properly. As for the 10W40 issue, I've never heard of a problem with that grade causing sludge. I'd love to see reference to that problem. I spent an hour searching for anything on the net and just found that manufacturers went to lower viscosity oils to boost their MPG figures. BMW Z1, Z3, and Z4's still recommend 10W40 as well as others as pointed out by the original poster. I've used it for many years on cars with more mileage and never had sludge problems when I pulled them down or removed the valve covers. "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net> wrote in message news:e2a51$44f21909$471fbb8f$23025@ALLTEL.NET... > > "NewsView" <newsview@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:1156714002.677754.172460@74g2000cwt.googlegro ups.com... > > >> Last but not least, I had an immediate family member >> that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than >> most of the service advisors I deal with. > > Knowing jargon means absolutely nothing. Your earlier comments about > brake > wear in the front versus the rear was a clear indicator that you do not > really understand much about cars - or at least about brakes. Being able > to > spout jargon only gets one into trouble if it isn't backed up by real > knowledge. Actually, I doubt you really know more jargon than the service > advisors - simply based on what you've written. > >> >> >> or lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for >> to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year >> faory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service >> records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration >> is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply >> asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration >> - though not lemon law - might still be an option. > > A usenet newsgroup is not a very good place to come for that advice. > Maybe > you should take your question to an attorney or to Hyundai directly. > > > -- > > -Mike- > mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > > |
Re: Matt - Five years of READING everything, including my owners manual!
Let's not turn this into another 'pissing contest'. The guy asked some
questions and took the pains to explain in detail his problems. I agree with Matt that I've never had a car in 45 years that had equal brake wear front and rear. All the weight is transferred to the front end on braking so that's where all the wear is. AND Mike is right that the best way to find out about arbitration is to DO IT, if you feel that your problem has not been addressed properly. As for the 10W40 issue, I've never heard of a problem with that grade causing sludge. I'd love to see reference to that problem. I spent an hour searching for anything on the net and just found that manufacturers went to lower viscosity oils to boost their MPG figures. BMW Z1, Z3, and Z4's still recommend 10W40 as well as others as pointed out by the original poster. I've used it for many years on cars with more mileage and never had sludge problems when I pulled them down or removed the valve covers. "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net> wrote in message news:e2a51$44f21909$471fbb8f$23025@ALLTEL.NET... > > "NewsView" <newsview@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:1156714002.677754.172460@74g2000cwt.googlegro ups.com... > > >> Last but not least, I had an immediate family member >> that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than >> most of the service advisors I deal with. > > Knowing jargon means absolutely nothing. Your earlier comments about > brake > wear in the front versus the rear was a clear indicator that you do not > really understand much about cars - or at least about brakes. Being able > to > spout jargon only gets one into trouble if it isn't backed up by real > knowledge. Actually, I doubt you really know more jargon than the service > advisors - simply based on what you've written. > >> >> >> or lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for >> to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year >> faory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service >> records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration >> is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply >> asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration >> - though not lemon law - might still be an option. > > A usenet newsgroup is not a very good place to come for that advice. > Maybe > you should take your question to an attorney or to Hyundai directly. > > > -- > > -Mike- > mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > > |
Re: Matt - Five years of READING everything, including my ownersmanual!
NewsView wrote:
> Hi Matt, > > On the one hand, I appreciate your attempt to jump in and help. On the > other hand, why assume I haven't done my homework - need I make my > already thorough post twice as long to cover all the basis to explain > the following? > > First, I would't be here if I hadn't read the owner's manual > cover-to-cover. I also have the Haynes guide, too. Plus, my owners > manual says that 10/40 is within range for my car, AND the dealer is > the one putting it into my engine! This oil is the only one rated to > withstand the harsh heat of my geographic area. I wouldn't use 10/40 in > snow country, but I don't live in snow country. Likewise, you don't > want 5W oil in 120 degree heat in parts of the desert Southwest. Sorry, it didn't sound like you were sure on the correct viscosity oil to use. If the owner's manual lists 10W40 as an option, then you should be fine warranty-wise. I'm surprised that Hyundai would still be recommending 10W40 as late as 2001 (I think that is what you said you car was) given that GM and others found serious problems with it long before that. Maybe Hyundai was a little slower to learn. > I've had people tell me to use 5W30, but that's not even mentioned in > my owner's manual. So I have to assume that the newer Elantras might > have different specs if they are permitting that range in their > engines. (I have the engine with the shims and not the newer hydraulic > lifter engine.) Last but not least, I had an immediate family member > that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than > most of the service advisors I deal with. Knowing jargon means nothing. It didn't appear from your original post that you knew much about cars given that you were trying oil additives to combat detonation and you believed that front and rear brakes should wear out at the same time. > Oil preferences cut both ways. There are two schools of thought - one > says if you use lighter weight oil it coats the lifters more quickly at > startup. The other says if you use heavier weight oil it won't drain > off the lifters so fast. At delivery the car and the dealer was using > 10/30 but I bumped up to 10/40 in response to this problem. I've since > bounced between the two and haven't noticed any real difference in > terms of engine noise (except that the rattle is worse in cool and damp > weather whereas in hot, dry weather it is much less pronounced). Also, > how do you assume my problem is sludge build up given that the noise > started when the car had only about 150-300 miles on it and still > contained the original factory oil? Just the same, I would be open to > 5W30 but my owner's manual doesn't even list that weight on the chart > - so no, I have no interest in voiding the warranty. I made no assumption that sludge was the cause of the problem. I was simply hoping that you hadn't voided your warranty if you had plans to take Hyundai to arbitration. > As for how I accelerate - easy. I stop for a light. Accelerate. Stop > for another light. Accelerate. The noise stops at the stop sign and > picks up again when my foot is back on the gas pedal. Between 10-20 > minutes later the engine noise is gone. You said 10-12 minutes of acceleration, not 10-20 minutes of stop and go driving. > Remember, I pointed out that the corporate rep didn't even try to deny > that there is a problem - he heard it and tried to fix it without > success. If you are going to call someone on the carpet, why not them? > They're supposed to be the experts - wheras from a consumer > perspective I've gone above and beyond the call of duty to be patient > with the dealer and to self educate myself so that I can be of > constructive use to them as opposed to screaming, yelling or burning > bridges (which is what most people in my shoes would have done within > the first two years let alone five years of this nonsense). I'm not calling anyone on the carpet. My you are thin-skinned. I suggested trying a different dealer if this one can't find the problem. > As for lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for > me to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year > factory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service > records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration > is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply > asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration > - though not lemon law - might still be an option. Usually there is either a section in your owner's manual that talks about arbitration and when it can be invoked or in a supplemental document that comes with the car. If you've read all of these from cover-to-cover, then you shouldn't need to ask that question here. Matt |
Re: Matt - Five years of READING everything, including my ownersmanual!
NewsView wrote:
> Hi Matt, > > On the one hand, I appreciate your attempt to jump in and help. On the > other hand, why assume I haven't done my homework - need I make my > already thorough post twice as long to cover all the basis to explain > the following? > > First, I would't be here if I hadn't read the owner's manual > cover-to-cover. I also have the Haynes guide, too. Plus, my owners > manual says that 10/40 is within range for my car, AND the dealer is > the one putting it into my engine! This oil is the only one rated to > withstand the harsh heat of my geographic area. I wouldn't use 10/40 in > snow country, but I don't live in snow country. Likewise, you don't > want 5W oil in 120 degree heat in parts of the desert Southwest. Sorry, it didn't sound like you were sure on the correct viscosity oil to use. If the owner's manual lists 10W40 as an option, then you should be fine warranty-wise. I'm surprised that Hyundai would still be recommending 10W40 as late as 2001 (I think that is what you said you car was) given that GM and others found serious problems with it long before that. Maybe Hyundai was a little slower to learn. > I've had people tell me to use 5W30, but that's not even mentioned in > my owner's manual. So I have to assume that the newer Elantras might > have different specs if they are permitting that range in their > engines. (I have the engine with the shims and not the newer hydraulic > lifter engine.) Last but not least, I had an immediate family member > that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than > most of the service advisors I deal with. Knowing jargon means nothing. It didn't appear from your original post that you knew much about cars given that you were trying oil additives to combat detonation and you believed that front and rear brakes should wear out at the same time. > Oil preferences cut both ways. There are two schools of thought - one > says if you use lighter weight oil it coats the lifters more quickly at > startup. The other says if you use heavier weight oil it won't drain > off the lifters so fast. At delivery the car and the dealer was using > 10/30 but I bumped up to 10/40 in response to this problem. I've since > bounced between the two and haven't noticed any real difference in > terms of engine noise (except that the rattle is worse in cool and damp > weather whereas in hot, dry weather it is much less pronounced). Also, > how do you assume my problem is sludge build up given that the noise > started when the car had only about 150-300 miles on it and still > contained the original factory oil? Just the same, I would be open to > 5W30 but my owner's manual doesn't even list that weight on the chart > - so no, I have no interest in voiding the warranty. I made no assumption that sludge was the cause of the problem. I was simply hoping that you hadn't voided your warranty if you had plans to take Hyundai to arbitration. > As for how I accelerate - easy. I stop for a light. Accelerate. Stop > for another light. Accelerate. The noise stops at the stop sign and > picks up again when my foot is back on the gas pedal. Between 10-20 > minutes later the engine noise is gone. You said 10-12 minutes of acceleration, not 10-20 minutes of stop and go driving. > Remember, I pointed out that the corporate rep didn't even try to deny > that there is a problem - he heard it and tried to fix it without > success. If you are going to call someone on the carpet, why not them? > They're supposed to be the experts - wheras from a consumer > perspective I've gone above and beyond the call of duty to be patient > with the dealer and to self educate myself so that I can be of > constructive use to them as opposed to screaming, yelling or burning > bridges (which is what most people in my shoes would have done within > the first two years let alone five years of this nonsense). I'm not calling anyone on the carpet. My you are thin-skinned. I suggested trying a different dealer if this one can't find the problem. > As for lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for > me to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year > factory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service > records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration > is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply > asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration > - though not lemon law - might still be an option. Usually there is either a section in your owner's manual that talks about arbitration and when it can be invoked or in a supplemental document that comes with the car. If you've read all of these from cover-to-cover, then you shouldn't need to ask that question here. Matt |
Re: Mike: Nice Slight of Hand - My dealer isn't the idiot, I AM!!!!!
Mike Marlow wrote:
"Knowing jargon means absolutely nothing. Your earlier comments about brake wear in the front versus the rear was a clear indicator that you do not really understand much about cars - or at least about brakes. Being able to spout jargon only gets one into trouble if it isn't backed up by real knowledge. Actually, I doubt you really know more jargon than the service advisors - simply based on what you've written." RE: Mike Whoa, Mike. I gotta be honest: I'm not sure if you were intentionally trying to scare me off by brashly claiming I know virtually nothing about my car, or if you make it your practice to be that "direct" to everyone you "meet" on this newsgroup. Funny you make that claim though. I guess "knowing squatt about cars" is why I was hired years ago by a car dealership to call all the customers who had warranty work or repairs to see if they were happy and to report their experience directly to the company president!!!!! Will you accept some friendly advice, Mike? If you don't know to whom you speak, first consider biting your tongue. There's no need to get caught up in a discussion that you don't like. If you can't say anything nice or helpful, just move on and have a nice life, LOL. BUT if you insist on being here, than have the decency to allow me to respond to your cynical conclusions: I wasn't posting with you in mind when I started this topic. I've posted here before and "Hyundai Tech" replied and wanted additional info. in order to help me. As you can see in the title, I'm directing this thread at one specific person (or type of user, in the event that that particular user is no longer here). Hyundai-Tech asked the questions in response to my first post in this newsgroup LAST YEAR. I'm only doing my belated best to answer them in this thread, while not excluding the participation of anyone else who might have a similar experience or potential solution they wish to share. By contrast, what type of solution did you offer me? "Get Lost?" Sorry, but that's the only inference I could make based upon the helpfulness of your response. Reminder # 1: The topic is the CAR and how to troubleshoot it - not me and whether or not you or anyone else can discredit my experience or change the subject. Reminder # 2: I made NO claim or representation of being a mechanic in my reply to Matt. Matt was assuming the worst about my automotive knowledge too - and in that respect he sounded a lot like you. (Perhaps you go by more than one screen name, Mike?) Understand: I had a fair right to respond to MATT'S QUESTION to the effect that yes, I HAVE read my user manual. I HAVE done my homework. I HAVE stood by this car (despite the problems). I HAVE been polite to my dealer despite the fact that the "EXPERTS" can't figure this darn thing out any more than I can. The only thing that might make me an idiot in this situation is the fact that I didn't file Lemon Law when I had a chance. Unlike Matt, who at least tried to be helpful in the bulk of his reply, your response, Mike, offered NOT ONE (1) iota of sympathy for my five-year ordeal. You are using your post to try to turn the subject around on me and my credibility instead of pointing the finger at the Hyundai dealer who is supposed to know what they are doing to repair THEIR MAKE and honor my business and my warranty. By questioning me and saying nothing about my car or how to troubleshoot the car, it seems as if you are trying to run interference in this thread by getting it off topic (and making it look like something nasty for others to avoid). Okay, let's say you are right in your assumption that I know squatt about cars. What I do or do not understand about mechanical theory does NOT change this REALITY: My car has been in my dealer's service bay for a total of 50 DAYS since I bought it new! Despite this, I have NEVER been as blunt or hostile to the service people in all this time as you just were by basically giving me a "You're an idiot" reply. When my service department sees me coming, the managers still have the decency to shake my hand. By contrast, all I've gotten here so far is the Internet equivalent of the finger. What's there to prove, anyway? Now if you have any kind of conscience, Mike, you'll be a gentleman - assuming you are not a rude kid to begin with - and apologize for assuming that everyone who posts with the words "lemon law" or "arbitration" has an IQ of 20 just because you are confused or threatened by what you read. (Speaking of which, why would YOU, Mike, feel threatened - unless you WORK for Hyundai? Even if you do work for Hyundai, you aren't the idiot who missed the problems on my car year after year, Mike. YOU don't work for my dealer. I am not slamming YOU personally, Mike. So ease up and try not to TAKE things so personally! For all I know, Mike, you - and your best bud Matt - could be the smartest people posting to this forum. BUT all I know of you so far is that you haven't demonstrated any insight into how to diagnose or fix the two problems I laid out. So let's turn the tables. You can dish it out. Can you take it? If you REALLY know more than just "jargon" yourself, prove it to me. Pop Quiz: What is the first diagnostic or test you would run and why? What is your best educated guess or explanation for the problems I've described in this thread? Are you up to the challenge? If not, that's okay. (Really.) I only want people who feel like being truly HELPFUL or sympathetic to respond to my posts, anyway. I don't want this thread to degenerate into a TROLL FEST, which is what will happen if I keep defending my integrity when I haven't done anything wrong or rude by posting in this PUBLIC NEWSGROUP in the first place. Just in case I was speaking a language other than English, let me recap my FIRST POST: FACT # 1: I HAVE TALKED to an independent mechanic, whom I trust, who advises me that having a 50 percent discrepancy between the front and rear brake wear may suggest a PROBLEM (I point this out because you say I understand nothing about brakes - so are you going to say that the mechanic I consulted is ALSO full of BS. too?). FACT # 2: A DEALER SERVICE ADVISOR admitted that it is NOT typical for the rear brakes to wear quite this fast compared to the front breaks. Don't believe the independent mechanic I spoke to? Fine. Don't even believe the Hyundai service advisor? Fine. Okay, go over to any other Elantra forum on the Internet and you will see people describing just such a thing - rear brakes wearing out early as a result of things like the parking brake or other misadjusted part. Don't believe any of them, either? I guess it is safe to conclude then, that the whole world is crazy except for you, Mike! I'm not afraid to give credit where it is due. Yes, sometimes the rear brakes DO wear out first on some cars (duh!). But does this mean that it is NOT good mechanical practice to inspect the braking system and ABS to rule out the possibility of a co-contributing factor? C'mon, Mike, PLEASE don't tell me that when the rear brake pads to wear out at roughly DOUBLE THE RATE as the front brakes, that it is "normal." If you start talking like that, it would make you sound like a stereotypical blame-the-idiot-customer-at-all-costs type (although I have to give my dealership credit where it is deserved - even their employees haven't stooped THAT low). In closing, if my particular dealer service department knew anything more than I do about this persistent engine noise and rear brake/ABS problem, I wouldn't be HAVING these problems drag on like this. So for the last time: The dealer has had my car in the shop for 50 days since I bought it. If that doesn't speak for itself than nothing will. |
Re: Mike: Nice Slight of Hand - My dealer isn't the idiot, I AM!!!!!
Mike Marlow wrote:
"Knowing jargon means absolutely nothing. Your earlier comments about brake wear in the front versus the rear was a clear indicator that you do not really understand much about cars - or at least about brakes. Being able to spout jargon only gets one into trouble if it isn't backed up by real knowledge. Actually, I doubt you really know more jargon than the service advisors - simply based on what you've written." RE: Mike Whoa, Mike. I gotta be honest: I'm not sure if you were intentionally trying to scare me off by brashly claiming I know virtually nothing about my car, or if you make it your practice to be that "direct" to everyone you "meet" on this newsgroup. Funny you make that claim though. I guess "knowing squatt about cars" is why I was hired years ago by a car dealership to call all the customers who had warranty work or repairs to see if they were happy and to report their experience directly to the company president!!!!! Will you accept some friendly advice, Mike? If you don't know to whom you speak, first consider biting your tongue. There's no need to get caught up in a discussion that you don't like. If you can't say anything nice or helpful, just move on and have a nice life, LOL. BUT if you insist on being here, than have the decency to allow me to respond to your cynical conclusions: I wasn't posting with you in mind when I started this topic. I've posted here before and "Hyundai Tech" replied and wanted additional info. in order to help me. As you can see in the title, I'm directing this thread at one specific person (or type of user, in the event that that particular user is no longer here). Hyundai-Tech asked the questions in response to my first post in this newsgroup LAST YEAR. I'm only doing my belated best to answer them in this thread, while not excluding the participation of anyone else who might have a similar experience or potential solution they wish to share. By contrast, what type of solution did you offer me? "Get Lost?" Sorry, but that's the only inference I could make based upon the helpfulness of your response. Reminder # 1: The topic is the CAR and how to troubleshoot it - not me and whether or not you or anyone else can discredit my experience or change the subject. Reminder # 2: I made NO claim or representation of being a mechanic in my reply to Matt. Matt was assuming the worst about my automotive knowledge too - and in that respect he sounded a lot like you. (Perhaps you go by more than one screen name, Mike?) Understand: I had a fair right to respond to MATT'S QUESTION to the effect that yes, I HAVE read my user manual. I HAVE done my homework. I HAVE stood by this car (despite the problems). I HAVE been polite to my dealer despite the fact that the "EXPERTS" can't figure this darn thing out any more than I can. The only thing that might make me an idiot in this situation is the fact that I didn't file Lemon Law when I had a chance. Unlike Matt, who at least tried to be helpful in the bulk of his reply, your response, Mike, offered NOT ONE (1) iota of sympathy for my five-year ordeal. You are using your post to try to turn the subject around on me and my credibility instead of pointing the finger at the Hyundai dealer who is supposed to know what they are doing to repair THEIR MAKE and honor my business and my warranty. By questioning me and saying nothing about my car or how to troubleshoot the car, it seems as if you are trying to run interference in this thread by getting it off topic (and making it look like something nasty for others to avoid). Okay, let's say you are right in your assumption that I know squatt about cars. What I do or do not understand about mechanical theory does NOT change this REALITY: My car has been in my dealer's service bay for a total of 50 DAYS since I bought it new! Despite this, I have NEVER been as blunt or hostile to the service people in all this time as you just were by basically giving me a "You're an idiot" reply. When my service department sees me coming, the managers still have the decency to shake my hand. By contrast, all I've gotten here so far is the Internet equivalent of the finger. What's there to prove, anyway? Now if you have any kind of conscience, Mike, you'll be a gentleman - assuming you are not a rude kid to begin with - and apologize for assuming that everyone who posts with the words "lemon law" or "arbitration" has an IQ of 20 just because you are confused or threatened by what you read. (Speaking of which, why would YOU, Mike, feel threatened - unless you WORK for Hyundai? Even if you do work for Hyundai, you aren't the idiot who missed the problems on my car year after year, Mike. YOU don't work for my dealer. I am not slamming YOU personally, Mike. So ease up and try not to TAKE things so personally! For all I know, Mike, you - and your best bud Matt - could be the smartest people posting to this forum. BUT all I know of you so far is that you haven't demonstrated any insight into how to diagnose or fix the two problems I laid out. So let's turn the tables. You can dish it out. Can you take it? If you REALLY know more than just "jargon" yourself, prove it to me. Pop Quiz: What is the first diagnostic or test you would run and why? What is your best educated guess or explanation for the problems I've described in this thread? Are you up to the challenge? If not, that's okay. (Really.) I only want people who feel like being truly HELPFUL or sympathetic to respond to my posts, anyway. I don't want this thread to degenerate into a TROLL FEST, which is what will happen if I keep defending my integrity when I haven't done anything wrong or rude by posting in this PUBLIC NEWSGROUP in the first place. Just in case I was speaking a language other than English, let me recap my FIRST POST: FACT # 1: I HAVE TALKED to an independent mechanic, whom I trust, who advises me that having a 50 percent discrepancy between the front and rear brake wear may suggest a PROBLEM (I point this out because you say I understand nothing about brakes - so are you going to say that the mechanic I consulted is ALSO full of BS. too?). FACT # 2: A DEALER SERVICE ADVISOR admitted that it is NOT typical for the rear brakes to wear quite this fast compared to the front breaks. Don't believe the independent mechanic I spoke to? Fine. Don't even believe the Hyundai service advisor? Fine. Okay, go over to any other Elantra forum on the Internet and you will see people describing just such a thing - rear brakes wearing out early as a result of things like the parking brake or other misadjusted part. Don't believe any of them, either? I guess it is safe to conclude then, that the whole world is crazy except for you, Mike! I'm not afraid to give credit where it is due. Yes, sometimes the rear brakes DO wear out first on some cars (duh!). But does this mean that it is NOT good mechanical practice to inspect the braking system and ABS to rule out the possibility of a co-contributing factor? C'mon, Mike, PLEASE don't tell me that when the rear brake pads to wear out at roughly DOUBLE THE RATE as the front brakes, that it is "normal." If you start talking like that, it would make you sound like a stereotypical blame-the-idiot-customer-at-all-costs type (although I have to give my dealership credit where it is deserved - even their employees haven't stooped THAT low). In closing, if my particular dealer service department knew anything more than I do about this persistent engine noise and rear brake/ABS problem, I wouldn't be HAVING these problems drag on like this. So for the last time: The dealer has had my car in the shop for 50 days since I bought it. If that doesn't speak for itself than nothing will. |
Re: Matt - Five years of READING everything, including my ownersmanual!
Tom wrote:
> Let's not turn this into another 'pissing contest'. The guy asked some > questions and took the pains to explain in detail his problems. I agree > with Matt that I've never had a car in 45 years that had equal brake wear > front and rear. All the weight is transferred to the front end on braking > so that's where all the wear is. > AND Mike is right that the best way to find out about arbitration is to DO > IT, if you feel that your problem has not been addressed properly. > > As for the 10W40 issue, I've never heard of a problem with that grade > causing sludge. I'd love to see reference to that problem. I spent an hour > searching for anything on the net and just found that manufacturers went to > lower viscosity oils to boost their MPG figures. BMW Z1, Z3, and Z4's still > recommend 10W40 as well as others as pointed out by the original poster. > I've used it for many years on cars with more mileage and never had sludge > problems when I pulled them down or removed the valve covers. Look at about the 8th paragraph down. http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html I can't find the GM recommendation on the net either, but I clearly remember them coming out with a recommendation to discontinue the use of 10W-40 and threatening to void warranties if its use was continued. Wide viscosity range oils just don't stand up as well as narrow ranges. And for high temp use, I'd use a synthetic anyway. Matt |
Re: Matt - Five years of READING everything, including my ownersmanual!
Tom wrote:
> Let's not turn this into another 'pissing contest'. The guy asked some > questions and took the pains to explain in detail his problems. I agree > with Matt that I've never had a car in 45 years that had equal brake wear > front and rear. All the weight is transferred to the front end on braking > so that's where all the wear is. > AND Mike is right that the best way to find out about arbitration is to DO > IT, if you feel that your problem has not been addressed properly. > > As for the 10W40 issue, I've never heard of a problem with that grade > causing sludge. I'd love to see reference to that problem. I spent an hour > searching for anything on the net and just found that manufacturers went to > lower viscosity oils to boost their MPG figures. BMW Z1, Z3, and Z4's still > recommend 10W40 as well as others as pointed out by the original poster. > I've used it for many years on cars with more mileage and never had sludge > problems when I pulled them down or removed the valve covers. Look at about the 8th paragraph down. http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html I can't find the GM recommendation on the net either, but I clearly remember them coming out with a recommendation to discontinue the use of 10W-40 and threatening to void warranties if its use was continued. Wide viscosity range oils just don't stand up as well as narrow ranges. And for high temp use, I'd use a synthetic anyway. Matt |
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