NewsView

Hi,

First off, I know this post looks long - my apologies! - but as you
can see upon closer inspection I've broken the text into a lot of
bullet points to make it an easy read.

General Question

With respect to the following two mechanical mysteries, am I too far
along to file for Hyundai arbitration? Or might there be solutions?


Car Stats:

2001 Elantra GLS
Automatic
Stock everything
Only OEM parts (including oil filters)
ABS/TCS 4-wheel disc brakes


First Longstanding Problem:

· An acceleration rattle started around 150-300 miles and is growing
worse with time

· This frog-in-the-throat sound takes place under acceleration and
low RPMS (up to about 40mph - then it either goes away or engine
noise drowns it out).

· I hear no abnormal engine noise when completely stopped at a light.

· This acceleration rattle lasts 10-20 minutes in duration, whereas
it used to last less than 5 minutes.

· The noise is worse when engine is cold or car was previously driven
roughly 2-4 hours beforehand.

· The sound seems louder in cool/damp weather [winter fuel blend????]

· It is not so obvious in hot, dry summer weather [summe fuel
blend????]

· Gas brand and octane rating makes no difference [that I can tell]

· I have a 2mpg drop in fuel efficiency (the car only makes about
20-21mpgs in city driving for past two years or so).

· Just this past week: Dealer replaced OEM Spark Plugs with NKGs
(same spec). Original plugs were carbon-fouled though there is less
than 30K on odometer and these are supposed to last 100,000 miles (but
car is 5yrs old so could this still be "normal"?). Dealer blames carbon
deposits on bad gas, not on whatever causes the engine rattle or ping
in the first place.

· I've never seen a CEL entire time I've owned the car. Beginning to
think one or more sensors don't "talk" to the computer since there is a
problem everyone can hear yet it never trips a check engine light.
Dealer seems to be of the general philosophy that if a check engine
light isn't on, there is no problem. On the other hand, everyone who
has heard the problem doesn't deny it (including the corporate rep).

· Dealer efforts to fix or explain problem include: Heat sheild
"tightened". "Cold selenoids are noisy" (tech tells me in 2001). Dealer
finally agrees to measure valve clearance (first one in 2002 normal,
second one in 2004 "out of spec", final one conducted the very next day
by Hyundai corporate rep finds "no problem"). Next told that I am
hearing lifters and this is a normal sound until oil gets from pan to
lifters (true, I hear lifter noise but that lasts about a minute at
startup whereas the other noise seems to be related to acceleration).
Little over a year ago this same Hyundai rep checked my car's thrust
washer/bearing (no sign of metal debris, no problem found (NPF).
Hyundai Customer Service Hotline alerts me to Exhaust Manifold recall:
Dealer checked but finds no sign of cracks so they did NOT replace
exhaust manifold. Motor mount replaced over a year ago - no change or
improvement on noise.

· What I've done: Tried oil additive. Tried higher octane (a few
years back - didn't notice an improvement). Tried gas additive -
injector cleaner?-about two years ago (only resulted in rough idle
and misfiring engine).Been using 10/40 oil instead of 10/30, which is
what the dealer uses at oil changes.


My Impression

Based upon what I've been told about the condition of my spark plugs
- despite only 30K on the odometer - it sounds like a case of
"spark knock". I suspect either a bad knock sensor that the car's
computer doesn't receive valid data from or a sticky valve lifter or
bad valve guide. I've also heard, though, that a rattle or pinging type
sound in the engine can come from the timing belt tensioner. It IS true
that when I lift the hood I hear some tapping from under the plastic
cover. So can anyone vouch for that theory?



Second Longstanding Problem

· I have ABS and four-wheel disc brakes. Almost since Day One I hear
the rear brake/wheel thumping at stops, which oddly enough sounds
almost like someone stuck in the trunk and pounding lower right side of
the car body with a fist!

There are two things that bring on the thumping sound:

· Sitting at a stop with my foot resting too lightly on the pedal -
in which case if I let up or stomp down harder the thumping noises
disappear.

· Second, I sometimes hear the same noise after I first pull into my
driveway, put the car into park and pull up the emergency brake. It
goes on about 30 seconds and anyone standing on the driveway or
sidewalk when it occurs can hear the sound too.

· The dealer has been unable to reproduce the noise and so they have
done little or no diagnostic work.

· Last week I had my car in for an oil change and now the dealer says
my rear brakes are in need of replacement but not the front. A year ago
I had 50 percent remaining on the front and 30 percent remaining on the
back brake pads. Now I have 20 percent left on the rear of the car (but
they didn't tell me the figure on the front.) The dealer wants me to
pay for rear brakes even though they admit that the front brake pads
should wear out somewhat faster than the rears.


My Impression

Normally, I would agree that brakes are wear-and-tear items and I
should foot the bill. But based on a conversation with an independent
mechanic, I feel some or all of this should fall under my warranty.
Reason: The independent mechanic told me that if there is more than 10
percent discrepancy between the wear on the front and rear brake pads
- which is true in my case - than there is a possibility that
something is grabbing or the ABS is kicking in when it should not be
and wearing down the rear brakes prematurely. As stated, I've been
hearing this brake thumping on an intermittent basis for years and it
is on record at my dealer that I've complained of it. So who should
pay? For that matter, what could cause disc brakes to do this? Could
the rotor be warped? What else might cause this noise?



CONCLUSION - I need all the help I can get!!!!!!!!!!

My dealer can't seem to put two and two together. Meanwhile, I've been
visiting Hyundai forums for years to try to get a leg up or a helpful
word of advice (which diagnostics to perform and in what order, for
example). The only Hyundai discussion I've come across that seems to
have REAL Hyundai techs is HERE, so I'm hoping I that if you are one of
them you can reply to this post (thank you!).

Can anyone else reading this post relate? If so, was there a solution
to a similar problem on your car?

Matt Whiting

NewsView wrote:

> With respect to the following two mechanical mysteries, am I too far
> along to file for Hyundai arbitration? Or might there be solutions?

It depends on your state, but I suspect that after 5 years you are way
out of range of invoking any sort of lemon law.


> · This acceleration rattle lasts 10-20 minutes in duration, whereas
> it used to last less than 5 minutes.

How do you accelerate for 10-20 minutes?


> · The noise is worse when engine is cold or car was previously driven
> roughly 2-4 hours beforehand.
>
> · The sound seems louder in cool/damp weather [winter fuel blend????]
>
> · It is not so obvious in hot, dry summer weather [summe fuel
> blend????]
>
> · Gas brand and octane rating makes no difference [that I can tell]
>
> · I have a 2mpg drop in fuel efficiency (the car only makes about
> 20-21mpgs in city driving for past two years or so).
>
> · Just this past week: Dealer replaced OEM Spark Plugs with NKGs
> (same spec). Original plugs were carbon-fouled though there is less
> than 30K on odometer and these are supposed to last 100,000 miles (but
> car is 5yrs old so could this still be "normal"?). Dealer blames carbon
> deposits on bad gas, not on whatever causes the engine rattle or ping
> in the first place.

I suppose it could be detonation or preignition, but it seems the dealer
would be able to tell that. Have you tride another dealer?


> · What I've done: Tried oil additive. Tried higher octane (a few
> years back - didn't notice an improvement). Tried gas additive -
> injector cleaner?-about two years ago (only resulted in rough idle
> and misfiring engine).Been using 10/40 oil instead of 10/30, which is
> what the dealer uses at oil changes.

Using 10W40 is not smart at all. It is well known to cause sludge and
other problems which is my most auto makers have recommended against it
for at least a decade. You should use what the owner's manual
recommends. This would void your warranty and likely pretty much remove
any chance of a claim against Hyundai.


> Second Longstanding Problem
>
> · I have ABS and four-wheel disc brakes. Almost since Day One I hear
> the rear brake/wheel thumping at stops, which oddly enough sounds
> almost like someone stuck in the trunk and pounding lower right side of
> the car body with a fist!
>
> There are two things that bring on the thumping sound:
>
> · Sitting at a stop with my foot resting too lightly on the pedal -
> in which case if I let up or stomp down harder the thumping noises
> disappear.
>
> · Second, I sometimes hear the same noise after I first pull into my
> driveway, put the car into park and pull up the emergency brake. It
> goes on about 30 seconds and anyone standing on the driveway or
> sidewalk when it occurs can hear the sound too.

I can't imagine what would cause this other than some issue with the ABS
system. I've never heard of this sort of problem before.


> · The dealer has been unable to reproduce the noise and so they have
> done little or no diagnostic work.

It is hard to fix what you can't see or hear.


> · Last week I had my car in for an oil change and now the dealer says
> my rear brakes are in need of replacement but not the front. A year ago
> I had 50 percent remaining on the front and 30 percent remaining on the
> back brake pads. Now I have 20 percent left on the rear of the car (but
> they didn't tell me the figure on the front.) The dealer wants me to
> pay for rear brakes even though they admit that the front brake pads
> should wear out somewhat faster than the rears.

Very few cars wear out the brakes evenly. Most of my cars wear out the
front pads faster, but not all.


> Normally, I would agree that brakes are wear-and-tear items and I
> should foot the bill. But based on a conversation with an independent
> mechanic, I feel some or all of this should fall under my warranty.
> Reason: The independent mechanic told me that if there is more than 10
> percent discrepancy between the wear on the front and rear brake pads
> - which is true in my case - than there is a possibility that
> something is grabbing or the ABS is kicking in when it should not be
> and wearing down the rear brakes prematurely. As stated, I've been
> hearing this brake thumping on an intermittent basis for years and it
> is on record at my dealer that I've complained of it. So who should
> pay? For that matter, what could cause disc brakes to do this? Could
> the rotor be warped? What else might cause this noise?

You didn't say how many miles are on the car, only that it has less than
30K so it is hard to say if this is reasonably wear or not. If you are
close to 30K and drive in the city much, then this is very good brake life.

Your independent mechanic doesn't have a clue if he thinks that front
and rear brakes will wear out within 10% of each other. I've never in
30 years owned a car that had brake wear even close to that even between
front and rear. Often side to side isn't even that close.

If the noise is occurring when you are sitting still as you say, then it
can't be "warped" rotors as they aren't moving when the car is still.


> CONCLUSION - I need all the help I can get!!!!!!!!!!

And you need to read your owner's manual and use the correct oil.


> My dealer can't seem to put two and two together. Meanwhile, I've been
> visiting Hyundai forums for years to try to get a leg up or a helpful
> word of advice (which diagnostics to perform and in what order, for
> example). The only Hyundai discussion I've come across that seems to
> have REAL Hyundai techs is HERE, so I'm hoping I that if you are one of
> them you can reply to this post (thank you!).

I would try a different dealer if the one you have been using isn't
giving you satisfaction.

Matt

Matt Whiting

NewsView wrote:

> With respect to the following two mechanical mysteries, am I too far
> along to file for Hyundai arbitration? Or might there be solutions?

It depends on your state, but I suspect that after 5 years you are way
out of range of invoking any sort of lemon law.


> · This acceleration rattle lasts 10-20 minutes in duration, whereas
> it used to last less than 5 minutes.

How do you accelerate for 10-20 minutes?


> · The noise is worse when engine is cold or car was previously driven
> roughly 2-4 hours beforehand.
>
> · The sound seems louder in cool/damp weather [winter fuel blend????]
>
> · It is not so obvious in hot, dry summer weather [summe fuel
> blend????]
>
> · Gas brand and octane rating makes no difference [that I can tell]
>
> · I have a 2mpg drop in fuel efficiency (the car only makes about
> 20-21mpgs in city driving for past two years or so).
>
> · Just this past week: Dealer replaced OEM Spark Plugs with NKGs
> (same spec). Original plugs were carbon-fouled though there is less
> than 30K on odometer and these are supposed to last 100,000 miles (but
> car is 5yrs old so could this still be "normal"?). Dealer blames carbon
> deposits on bad gas, not on whatever causes the engine rattle or ping
> in the first place.

I suppose it could be detonation or preignition, but it seems the dealer
would be able to tell that. Have you tride another dealer?


> · What I've done: Tried oil additive. Tried higher octane (a few
> years back - didn't notice an improvement). Tried gas additive -
> injector cleaner?-about two years ago (only resulted in rough idle
> and misfiring engine).Been using 10/40 oil instead of 10/30, which is
> what the dealer uses at oil changes.

Using 10W40 is not smart at all. It is well known to cause sludge and
other problems which is my most auto makers have recommended against it
for at least a decade. You should use what the owner's manual
recommends. This would void your warranty and likely pretty much remove
any chance of a claim against Hyundai.


> Second Longstanding Problem
>
> · I have ABS and four-wheel disc brakes. Almost since Day One I hear
> the rear brake/wheel thumping at stops, which oddly enough sounds
> almost like someone stuck in the trunk and pounding lower right side of
> the car body with a fist!
>
> There are two things that bring on the thumping sound:
>
> · Sitting at a stop with my foot resting too lightly on the pedal -
> in which case if I let up or stomp down harder the thumping noises
> disappear.
>
> · Second, I sometimes hear the same noise after I first pull into my
> driveway, put the car into park and pull up the emergency brake. It
> goes on about 30 seconds and anyone standing on the driveway or
> sidewalk when it occurs can hear the sound too.

I can't imagine what would cause this other than some issue with the ABS
system. I've never heard of this sort of problem before.


> · The dealer has been unable to reproduce the noise and so they have
> done little or no diagnostic work.

It is hard to fix what you can't see or hear.


> · Last week I had my car in for an oil change and now the dealer says
> my rear brakes are in need of replacement but not the front. A year ago
> I had 50 percent remaining on the front and 30 percent remaining on the
> back brake pads. Now I have 20 percent left on the rear of the car (but
> they didn't tell me the figure on the front.) The dealer wants me to
> pay for rear brakes even though they admit that the front brake pads
> should wear out somewhat faster than the rears.

Very few cars wear out the brakes evenly. Most of my cars wear out the
front pads faster, but not all.


> Normally, I would agree that brakes are wear-and-tear items and I
> should foot the bill. But based on a conversation with an independent
> mechanic, I feel some or all of this should fall under my warranty.
> Reason: The independent mechanic told me that if there is more than 10
> percent discrepancy between the wear on the front and rear brake pads
> - which is true in my case - than there is a possibility that
> something is grabbing or the ABS is kicking in when it should not be
> and wearing down the rear brakes prematurely. As stated, I've been
> hearing this brake thumping on an intermittent basis for years and it
> is on record at my dealer that I've complained of it. So who should
> pay? For that matter, what could cause disc brakes to do this? Could
> the rotor be warped? What else might cause this noise?

You didn't say how many miles are on the car, only that it has less than
30K so it is hard to say if this is reasonably wear or not. If you are
close to 30K and drive in the city much, then this is very good brake life.

Your independent mechanic doesn't have a clue if he thinks that front
and rear brakes will wear out within 10% of each other. I've never in
30 years owned a car that had brake wear even close to that even between
front and rear. Often side to side isn't even that close.

If the noise is occurring when you are sitting still as you say, then it
can't be "warped" rotors as they aren't moving when the car is still.


> CONCLUSION - I need all the help I can get!!!!!!!!!!

And you need to read your owner's manual and use the correct oil.


> My dealer can't seem to put two and two together. Meanwhile, I've been
> visiting Hyundai forums for years to try to get a leg up or a helpful
> word of advice (which diagnostics to perform and in what order, for
> example). The only Hyundai discussion I've come across that seems to
> have REAL Hyundai techs is HERE, so I'm hoping I that if you are one of
> them you can reply to this post (thank you!).

I would try a different dealer if the one you have been using isn't
giving you satisfaction.

Matt

NewsView

Hi Matt,

On the one hand, I appreciate your attempt to jump in and help. On the
other hand, why assume I haven't done my homework - need I make my
already thorough post twice as long to cover all the basis to explain
the following?

First, I would't be here if I hadn't read the owner's manual
cover-to-cover. I also have the Haynes guide, too. Plus, my owners
manual says that 10/40 is within range for my car, AND the dealer is
the one putting it into my engine! This oil is the only one rated to
withstand the harsh heat of my geographic area. I wouldn't use 10/40 in
snow country, but I don't live in snow country. Likewise, you don't
want 5W oil in 120 degree heat in parts of the desert Southwest.

I've had people tell me to use 5W30, but that's not even mentioned in
my owner's manual. So I have to assume that the newer Elantras might
have different specs if they are permitting that range in their
engines. (I have the engine with the shims and not the newer hydraulic
lifter engine.) Last but not least, I had an immediate family member
that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than
most of the service advisors I deal with.

Oil preferences cut both ways. There are two schools of thought - one
says if you use lighter weight oil it coats the lifters more quickly at
startup. The other says if you use heavier weight oil it won't drain
off the lifters so fast. At delivery the car and the dealer was using
10/30 but I bumped up to 10/40 in response to this problem. I've since
bounced between the two and haven't noticed any real difference in
terms of engine noise (except that the rattle is worse in cool and damp
weather whereas in hot, dry weather it is much less pronounced). Also,
how do you assume my problem is sludge build up given that the noise
started when the car had only about 150-300 miles on it and still
contained the original factory oil? Just the same, I would be open to
5W30 but my owner's manual doesn't even list that weight on the chart
- so no, I have no interest in voiding the warranty.

As for how I accelerate - easy. I stop for a light. Accelerate. Stop
for another light. Accelerate. The noise stops at the stop sign and
picks up again when my foot is back on the gas pedal. Between 10-20
minutes later the engine noise is gone.

Remember, I pointed out that the corporate rep didn't even try to deny
that there is a problem - he heard it and tried to fix it without
success. If you are going to call someone on the carpet, why not them?
They're supposed to be the experts - wheras from a consumer
perspective I've gone above and beyond the call of duty to be patient
with the dealer and to self educate myself so that I can be of
constructive use to them as opposed to screaming, yelling or burning
bridges (which is what most people in my shoes would have done within
the first two years let alone five years of this nonsense).

As for lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for
me to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year
factory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service
records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration
is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply
asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration
- though not lemon law - might still be an option.

I appreciate anyone who can help.


Matt Whiting wrote:
> NewsView wrote:
>
> > With respect to the following two mechanical mysteries, am I too far
> > along to file for Hyundai arbitration? Or might there be solutions?
>
> It depends on your state, but I suspect that after 5 years you are way
> out of range of invoking any sort of lemon law.
>
>
> > · This acceleration rattle lasts 10-20 minutes in duration, whereas
> > it used to last less than 5 minutes.
>
> How do you accelerate for 10-20 minutes?
>
>
> > · The noise is worse when engine is cold or car was previously driven
> > roughly 2-4 hours beforehand.
> >
> > · The sound seems louder in cool/damp weather [winter fuel blend????]
> >
> > · It is not so obvious in hot, dry summer weather [summe fuel
> > blend????]
> >
> > · Gas brand and octane rating makes no difference [that I can tell]
> >
> > · I have a 2mpg drop in fuel efficiency (the car only makes about
> > 20-21mpgs in city driving for past two years or so).
> >
> > · Just this past week: Dealer replaced OEM Spark Plugs with NKGs
> > (same spec). Original plugs were carbon-fouled though there is less
> > than 30K on odometer and these are supposed to last 100,000 miles (but
> > car is 5yrs old so could this still be "normal"?). Dealer blames carbon
> > deposits on bad gas, not on whatever causes the engine rattle or ping
> > in the first place.
>
> I suppose it could be detonation or preignition, but it seems the dealer
> would be able to tell that. Have you tride another dealer?
>
>
> > · What I've done: Tried oil additive. Tried higher octane (a few
> > years back - didn't notice an improvement). Tried gas additive -
> > injector cleaner?-about two years ago (only resulted in rough idle
> > and misfiring engine).Been using 10/40 oil instead of 10/30, which is
> > what the dealer uses at oil changes.
>
> Using 10W40 is not smart at all. It is well known to cause sludge and
> other problems which is my most auto makers have recommended against it
> for at least a decade. You should use what the owner's manual
> recommends. This would void your warranty and likely pretty much remove
> any chance of a claim against Hyundai.
>
>
> > Second Longstanding Problem
> >
> > · I have ABS and four-wheel disc brakes. Almost since Day One I hear
> > the rear brake/wheel thumping at stops, which oddly enough sounds
> > almost like someone stuck in the trunk and pounding lower right side of
> > the car body with a fist!
> >
> > There are two things that bring on the thumping sound:
> >
> > · Sitting at a stop with my foot resting too lightly on the pedal -
> > in which case if I let up or stomp down harder the thumping noises
> > disappear.
> >
> > · Second, I sometimes hear the same noise after I first pull into my
> > driveway, put the car into park and pull up the emergency brake. It
> > goes on about 30 seconds and anyone standing on the driveway or
> > sidewalk when it occurs can hear the sound too.
>
> I can't imagine what would cause this other than some issue with the ABS
> system. I've never heard of this sort of problem before.
>
>
> > · The dealer has been unable to reproduce the noise and so they have
> > done little or no diagnostic work.
>
> It is hard to fix what you can't see or hear.
>
>
> > · Last week I had my car in for an oil change and now the dealer says
> > my rear brakes are in need of replacement but not the front. A year ago
> > I had 50 percent remaining on the front and 30 percent remaining on the
> > back brake pads. Now I have 20 percent left on the rear of the car (but
> > they didn't tell me the figure on the front.) The dealer wants me to
> > pay for rear brakes even though they admit that the front brake pads
> > should wear out somewhat faster than the rears.
>
> Very few cars wear out the brakes evenly. Most of my cars wear out the
> front pads faster, but not all.
>
>
> > Normally, I would agree that brakes are wear-and-tear items and I
> > should foot the bill. But based on a conversation with an independent
> > mechanic, I feel some or all of this should fall under my warranty.
> > Reason: The independent mechanic told me that if there is more than 10
> > percent discrepancy between the wear on the front and rear brake pads
> > - which is true in my case - than there is a possibility that
> > something is grabbing or the ABS is kicking in when it should not be
> > and wearing down the rear brakes prematurely. As stated, I've been
> > hearing this brake thumping on an intermittent basis for years and it
> > is on record at my dealer that I've complained of it. So who should
> > pay? For that matter, what could cause disc brakes to do this? Could
> > the rotor be warped? What else might cause this noise?
>
> You didn't say how many miles are on the car, only that it has less than
> 30K so it is hard to say if this is reasonably wear or not. If you are
> close to 30K and drive in the city much, then this is very good brake life.
>
> Your independent mechanic doesn't have a clue if he thinks that front
> and rear brakes will wear out within 10% of each other. I've never in
> 30 years owned a car that had brake wear even close to that even between
> front and rear. Often side to side isn't even that close.
>
> If the noise is occurring when you are sitting still as you say, then it
> can't be "warped" rotors as they aren't moving when the car is still.
>
>
> > CONCLUSION - I need all the help I can get!!!!!!!!!!
>
> And you need to read your owner's manual and use the correct oil.
>
>
> > My dealer can't seem to put two and two together. Meanwhile, I've been
> > visiting Hyundai forums for years to try to get a leg up or a helpful
> > word of advice (which diagnostics to perform and in what order, for
> > example). The only Hyundai discussion I've come across that seems to
> > have REAL Hyundai techs is HERE, so I'm hoping I that if you are one of
> > them you can reply to this post (thank you!).
>
> I would try a different dealer if the one you have been using isn't
> giving you satisfaction.
>
> Matt

NewsView

Hi Matt,

On the one hand, I appreciate your attempt to jump in and help. On the
other hand, why assume I haven't done my homework - need I make my
already thorough post twice as long to cover all the basis to explain
the following?

First, I would't be here if I hadn't read the owner's manual
cover-to-cover. I also have the Haynes guide, too. Plus, my owners
manual says that 10/40 is within range for my car, AND the dealer is
the one putting it into my engine! This oil is the only one rated to
withstand the harsh heat of my geographic area. I wouldn't use 10/40 in
snow country, but I don't live in snow country. Likewise, you don't
want 5W oil in 120 degree heat in parts of the desert Southwest.

I've had people tell me to use 5W30, but that's not even mentioned in
my owner's manual. So I have to assume that the newer Elantras might
have different specs if they are permitting that range in their
engines. (I have the engine with the shims and not the newer hydraulic
lifter engine.) Last but not least, I had an immediate family member
that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than
most of the service advisors I deal with.

Oil preferences cut both ways. There are two schools of thought - one
says if you use lighter weight oil it coats the lifters more quickly at
startup. The other says if you use heavier weight oil it won't drain
off the lifters so fast. At delivery the car and the dealer was using
10/30 but I bumped up to 10/40 in response to this problem. I've since
bounced between the two and haven't noticed any real difference in
terms of engine noise (except that the rattle is worse in cool and damp
weather whereas in hot, dry weather it is much less pronounced). Also,
how do you assume my problem is sludge build up given that the noise
started when the car had only about 150-300 miles on it and still
contained the original factory oil? Just the same, I would be open to
5W30 but my owner's manual doesn't even list that weight on the chart
- so no, I have no interest in voiding the warranty.

As for how I accelerate - easy. I stop for a light. Accelerate. Stop
for another light. Accelerate. The noise stops at the stop sign and
picks up again when my foot is back on the gas pedal. Between 10-20
minutes later the engine noise is gone.

Remember, I pointed out that the corporate rep didn't even try to deny
that there is a problem - he heard it and tried to fix it without
success. If you are going to call someone on the carpet, why not them?
They're supposed to be the experts - wheras from a consumer
perspective I've gone above and beyond the call of duty to be patient
with the dealer and to self educate myself so that I can be of
constructive use to them as opposed to screaming, yelling or burning
bridges (which is what most people in my shoes would have done within
the first two years let alone five years of this nonsense).

As for lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for
me to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year
factory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service
records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration
is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply
asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration
- though not lemon law - might still be an option.

I appreciate anyone who can help.


Matt Whiting wrote:
> NewsView wrote:
>
> > With respect to the following two mechanical mysteries, am I too far
> > along to file for Hyundai arbitration? Or might there be solutions?
>
> It depends on your state, but I suspect that after 5 years you are way
> out of range of invoking any sort of lemon law.
>
>
> > · This acceleration rattle lasts 10-20 minutes in duration, whereas
> > it used to last less than 5 minutes.
>
> How do you accelerate for 10-20 minutes?
>
>
> > · The noise is worse when engine is cold or car was previously driven
> > roughly 2-4 hours beforehand.
> >
> > · The sound seems louder in cool/damp weather [winter fuel blend????]
> >
> > · It is not so obvious in hot, dry summer weather [summe fuel
> > blend????]
> >
> > · Gas brand and octane rating makes no difference [that I can tell]
> >
> > · I have a 2mpg drop in fuel efficiency (the car only makes about
> > 20-21mpgs in city driving for past two years or so).
> >
> > · Just this past week: Dealer replaced OEM Spark Plugs with NKGs
> > (same spec). Original plugs were carbon-fouled though there is less
> > than 30K on odometer and these are supposed to last 100,000 miles (but
> > car is 5yrs old so could this still be "normal"?). Dealer blames carbon
> > deposits on bad gas, not on whatever causes the engine rattle or ping
> > in the first place.
>
> I suppose it could be detonation or preignition, but it seems the dealer
> would be able to tell that. Have you tride another dealer?
>
>
> > · What I've done: Tried oil additive. Tried higher octane (a few
> > years back - didn't notice an improvement). Tried gas additive -
> > injector cleaner?-about two years ago (only resulted in rough idle
> > and misfiring engine).Been using 10/40 oil instead of 10/30, which is
> > what the dealer uses at oil changes.
>
> Using 10W40 is not smart at all. It is well known to cause sludge and
> other problems which is my most auto makers have recommended against it
> for at least a decade. You should use what the owner's manual
> recommends. This would void your warranty and likely pretty much remove
> any chance of a claim against Hyundai.
>
>
> > Second Longstanding Problem
> >
> > · I have ABS and four-wheel disc brakes. Almost since Day One I hear
> > the rear brake/wheel thumping at stops, which oddly enough sounds
> > almost like someone stuck in the trunk and pounding lower right side of
> > the car body with a fist!
> >
> > There are two things that bring on the thumping sound:
> >
> > · Sitting at a stop with my foot resting too lightly on the pedal -
> > in which case if I let up or stomp down harder the thumping noises
> > disappear.
> >
> > · Second, I sometimes hear the same noise after I first pull into my
> > driveway, put the car into park and pull up the emergency brake. It
> > goes on about 30 seconds and anyone standing on the driveway or
> > sidewalk when it occurs can hear the sound too.
>
> I can't imagine what would cause this other than some issue with the ABS
> system. I've never heard of this sort of problem before.
>
>
> > · The dealer has been unable to reproduce the noise and so they have
> > done little or no diagnostic work.
>
> It is hard to fix what you can't see or hear.
>
>
> > · Last week I had my car in for an oil change and now the dealer says
> > my rear brakes are in need of replacement but not the front. A year ago
> > I had 50 percent remaining on the front and 30 percent remaining on the
> > back brake pads. Now I have 20 percent left on the rear of the car (but
> > they didn't tell me the figure on the front.) The dealer wants me to
> > pay for rear brakes even though they admit that the front brake pads
> > should wear out somewhat faster than the rears.
>
> Very few cars wear out the brakes evenly. Most of my cars wear out the
> front pads faster, but not all.
>
>
> > Normally, I would agree that brakes are wear-and-tear items and I
> > should foot the bill. But based on a conversation with an independent
> > mechanic, I feel some or all of this should fall under my warranty.
> > Reason: The independent mechanic told me that if there is more than 10
> > percent discrepancy between the wear on the front and rear brake pads
> > - which is true in my case - than there is a possibility that
> > something is grabbing or the ABS is kicking in when it should not be
> > and wearing down the rear brakes prematurely. As stated, I've been
> > hearing this brake thumping on an intermittent basis for years and it
> > is on record at my dealer that I've complained of it. So who should
> > pay? For that matter, what could cause disc brakes to do this? Could
> > the rotor be warped? What else might cause this noise?
>
> You didn't say how many miles are on the car, only that it has less than
> 30K so it is hard to say if this is reasonably wear or not. If you are
> close to 30K and drive in the city much, then this is very good brake life.
>
> Your independent mechanic doesn't have a clue if he thinks that front
> and rear brakes will wear out within 10% of each other. I've never in
> 30 years owned a car that had brake wear even close to that even between
> front and rear. Often side to side isn't even that close.
>
> If the noise is occurring when you are sitting still as you say, then it
> can't be "warped" rotors as they aren't moving when the car is still.
>
>
> > CONCLUSION - I need all the help I can get!!!!!!!!!!
>
> And you need to read your owner's manual and use the correct oil.
>
>
> > My dealer can't seem to put two and two together. Meanwhile, I've been
> > visiting Hyundai forums for years to try to get a leg up or a helpful
> > word of advice (which diagnostics to perform and in what order, for
> > example). The only Hyundai discussion I've come across that seems to
> > have REAL Hyundai techs is HERE, so I'm hoping I that if you are one of
> > them you can reply to this post (thank you!).
>
> I would try a different dealer if the one you have been using isn't
> giving you satisfaction.
>
> Matt

Mike Marlow

"NewsView" <newsview@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156714002.677754.172460@74g2000cwt.googlegro ups.com...


> Last but not least, I had an immediate family member
> that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than
> most of the service advisors I deal with.

Knowing jargon means absolutely nothing. Your earlier comments about brake
wear in the front versus the rear was a clear indicator that you do not
really understand much about cars - or at least about brakes. Being able to
spout jargon only gets one into trouble if it isn't backed up by real
knowledge. Actually, I doubt you really know more jargon than the service
advisors - simply based on what you've written.

>
>
> or lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for
> to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year
> faory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service
> records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration
> is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply
> asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration
> - though not lemon law - might still be an option.

A usenet newsgroup is not a very good place to come for that advice. Maybe
you should take your question to an attorney or to Hyundai directly.


--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

Mike Marlow

"NewsView" <newsview@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156714002.677754.172460@74g2000cwt.googlegro ups.com...


> Last but not least, I had an immediate family member
> that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than
> most of the service advisors I deal with.

Knowing jargon means absolutely nothing. Your earlier comments about brake
wear in the front versus the rear was a clear indicator that you do not
really understand much about cars - or at least about brakes. Being able to
spout jargon only gets one into trouble if it isn't backed up by real
knowledge. Actually, I doubt you really know more jargon than the service
advisors - simply based on what you've written.

>
>
> or lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for
> to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year
> faory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service
> records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration
> is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply
> asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration
> - though not lemon law - might still be an option.

A usenet newsgroup is not a very good place to come for that advice. Maybe
you should take your question to an attorney or to Hyundai directly.


--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

Tom

Let's not turn this into another 'pissing contest'. The guy asked some
questions and took the pains to explain in detail his problems. I agree
with Matt that I've never had a car in 45 years that had equal brake wear
front and rear. All the weight is transferred to the front end on braking
so that's where all the wear is.
AND Mike is right that the best way to find out about arbitration is to DO
IT, if you feel that your problem has not been addressed properly.

As for the 10W40 issue, I've never heard of a problem with that grade
causing sludge. I'd love to see reference to that problem. I spent an hour
searching for anything on the net and just found that manufacturers went to
lower viscosity oils to boost their MPG figures. BMW Z1, Z3, and Z4's still
recommend 10W40 as well as others as pointed out by the original poster.
I've used it for many years on cars with more mileage and never had sludge
problems when I pulled them down or removed the valve covers.





"Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:e2a51$44f21909$471fbb8f$23025@ALLTEL.NET...
>
> "NewsView" <newsview@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156714002.677754.172460@74g2000cwt.googlegro ups.com...
>
>
>> Last but not least, I had an immediate family member
>> that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than
>> most of the service advisors I deal with.
>
> Knowing jargon means absolutely nothing. Your earlier comments about
> brake
> wear in the front versus the rear was a clear indicator that you do not
> really understand much about cars - or at least about brakes. Being able
> to
> spout jargon only gets one into trouble if it isn't backed up by real
> knowledge. Actually, I doubt you really know more jargon than the service
> advisors - simply based on what you've written.
>
>>
>>
>> or lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for
>> to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year
>> faory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service
>> records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration
>> is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply
>> asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration
>> - though not lemon law - might still be an option.
>
> A usenet newsgroup is not a very good place to come for that advice.
> Maybe
> you should take your question to an attorney or to Hyundai directly.
>
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
>
>

Tom

Let's not turn this into another 'pissing contest'. The guy asked some
questions and took the pains to explain in detail his problems. I agree
with Matt that I've never had a car in 45 years that had equal brake wear
front and rear. All the weight is transferred to the front end on braking
so that's where all the wear is.
AND Mike is right that the best way to find out about arbitration is to DO
IT, if you feel that your problem has not been addressed properly.

As for the 10W40 issue, I've never heard of a problem with that grade
causing sludge. I'd love to see reference to that problem. I spent an hour
searching for anything on the net and just found that manufacturers went to
lower viscosity oils to boost their MPG figures. BMW Z1, Z3, and Z4's still
recommend 10W40 as well as others as pointed out by the original poster.
I've used it for many years on cars with more mileage and never had sludge
problems when I pulled them down or removed the valve covers.





"Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:e2a51$44f21909$471fbb8f$23025@ALLTEL.NET...
>
> "NewsView" <newsview@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156714002.677754.172460@74g2000cwt.googlegro ups.com...
>
>
>> Last but not least, I had an immediate family member
>> that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than
>> most of the service advisors I deal with.
>
> Knowing jargon means absolutely nothing. Your earlier comments about
> brake
> wear in the front versus the rear was a clear indicator that you do not
> really understand much about cars - or at least about brakes. Being able
> to
> spout jargon only gets one into trouble if it isn't backed up by real
> knowledge. Actually, I doubt you really know more jargon than the service
> advisors - simply based on what you've written.
>
>>
>>
>> or lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for
>> to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year
>> faory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service
>> records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration
>> is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply
>> asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration
>> - though not lemon law - might still be an option.
>
> A usenet newsgroup is not a very good place to come for that advice.
> Maybe
> you should take your question to an attorney or to Hyundai directly.
>
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
>
>

Matt Whiting

NewsView wrote:

> Hi Matt,
>
> On the one hand, I appreciate your attempt to jump in and help. On the
> other hand, why assume I haven't done my homework - need I make my
> already thorough post twice as long to cover all the basis to explain
> the following?
>
> First, I would't be here if I hadn't read the owner's manual
> cover-to-cover. I also have the Haynes guide, too. Plus, my owners
> manual says that 10/40 is within range for my car, AND the dealer is
> the one putting it into my engine! This oil is the only one rated to
> withstand the harsh heat of my geographic area. I wouldn't use 10/40 in
> snow country, but I don't live in snow country. Likewise, you don't
> want 5W oil in 120 degree heat in parts of the desert Southwest.

Sorry, it didn't sound like you were sure on the correct viscosity oil
to use. If the owner's manual lists 10W40 as an option, then you should
be fine warranty-wise. I'm surprised that Hyundai would still be
recommending 10W40 as late as 2001 (I think that is what you said you
car was) given that GM and others found serious problems with it long
before that. Maybe Hyundai was a little slower to learn.


> I've had people tell me to use 5W30, but that's not even mentioned in
> my owner's manual. So I have to assume that the newer Elantras might
> have different specs if they are permitting that range in their
> engines. (I have the engine with the shims and not the newer hydraulic
> lifter engine.) Last but not least, I had an immediate family member
> that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than
> most of the service advisors I deal with.

Knowing jargon means nothing. It didn't appear from your original post
that you knew much about cars given that you were trying oil additives
to combat detonation and you believed that front and rear brakes should
wear out at the same time.


> Oil preferences cut both ways. There are two schools of thought - one
> says if you use lighter weight oil it coats the lifters more quickly at
> startup. The other says if you use heavier weight oil it won't drain
> off the lifters so fast. At delivery the car and the dealer was using
> 10/30 but I bumped up to 10/40 in response to this problem. I've since
> bounced between the two and haven't noticed any real difference in
> terms of engine noise (except that the rattle is worse in cool and damp
> weather whereas in hot, dry weather it is much less pronounced). Also,
> how do you assume my problem is sludge build up given that the noise
> started when the car had only about 150-300 miles on it and still
> contained the original factory oil? Just the same, I would be open to
> 5W30 but my owner's manual doesn't even list that weight on the chart
> - so no, I have no interest in voiding the warranty.

I made no assumption that sludge was the cause of the problem. I was
simply hoping that you hadn't voided your warranty if you had plans to
take Hyundai to arbitration.



> As for how I accelerate - easy. I stop for a light. Accelerate. Stop
> for another light. Accelerate. The noise stops at the stop sign and
> picks up again when my foot is back on the gas pedal. Between 10-20
> minutes later the engine noise is gone.

You said 10-12 minutes of acceleration, not 10-20 minutes of stop and go
driving.


> Remember, I pointed out that the corporate rep didn't even try to deny
> that there is a problem - he heard it and tried to fix it without
> success. If you are going to call someone on the carpet, why not them?
> They're supposed to be the experts - wheras from a consumer
> perspective I've gone above and beyond the call of duty to be patient
> with the dealer and to self educate myself so that I can be of
> constructive use to them as opposed to screaming, yelling or burning
> bridges (which is what most people in my shoes would have done within
> the first two years let alone five years of this nonsense).

I'm not calling anyone on the carpet. My you are thin-skinned. I
suggested trying a different dealer if this one can't find the problem.


> As for lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for
> me to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year
> factory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service
> records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration
> is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply
> asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration
> - though not lemon law - might still be an option.

Usually there is either a section in your owner's manual that talks
about arbitration and when it can be invoked or in a supplemental
document that comes with the car. If you've read all of these from
cover-to-cover, then you shouldn't need to ask that question here.

Matt

Matt Whiting

NewsView wrote:

> Hi Matt,
>
> On the one hand, I appreciate your attempt to jump in and help. On the
> other hand, why assume I haven't done my homework - need I make my
> already thorough post twice as long to cover all the basis to explain
> the following?
>
> First, I would't be here if I hadn't read the owner's manual
> cover-to-cover. I also have the Haynes guide, too. Plus, my owners
> manual says that 10/40 is within range for my car, AND the dealer is
> the one putting it into my engine! This oil is the only one rated to
> withstand the harsh heat of my geographic area. I wouldn't use 10/40 in
> snow country, but I don't live in snow country. Likewise, you don't
> want 5W oil in 120 degree heat in parts of the desert Southwest.

Sorry, it didn't sound like you were sure on the correct viscosity oil
to use. If the owner's manual lists 10W40 as an option, then you should
be fine warranty-wise. I'm surprised that Hyundai would still be
recommending 10W40 as late as 2001 (I think that is what you said you
car was) given that GM and others found serious problems with it long
before that. Maybe Hyundai was a little slower to learn.


> I've had people tell me to use 5W30, but that's not even mentioned in
> my owner's manual. So I have to assume that the newer Elantras might
> have different specs if they are permitting that range in their
> engines. (I have the engine with the shims and not the newer hydraulic
> lifter engine.) Last but not least, I had an immediate family member
> that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than
> most of the service advisors I deal with.

Knowing jargon means nothing. It didn't appear from your original post
that you knew much about cars given that you were trying oil additives
to combat detonation and you believed that front and rear brakes should
wear out at the same time.


> Oil preferences cut both ways. There are two schools of thought - one
> says if you use lighter weight oil it coats the lifters more quickly at
> startup. The other says if you use heavier weight oil it won't drain
> off the lifters so fast. At delivery the car and the dealer was using
> 10/30 but I bumped up to 10/40 in response to this problem. I've since
> bounced between the two and haven't noticed any real difference in
> terms of engine noise (except that the rattle is worse in cool and damp
> weather whereas in hot, dry weather it is much less pronounced). Also,
> how do you assume my problem is sludge build up given that the noise
> started when the car had only about 150-300 miles on it and still
> contained the original factory oil? Just the same, I would be open to
> 5W30 but my owner's manual doesn't even list that weight on the chart
> - so no, I have no interest in voiding the warranty.

I made no assumption that sludge was the cause of the problem. I was
simply hoping that you hadn't voided your warranty if you had plans to
take Hyundai to arbitration.



> As for how I accelerate - easy. I stop for a light. Accelerate. Stop
> for another light. Accelerate. The noise stops at the stop sign and
> picks up again when my foot is back on the gas pedal. Between 10-20
> minutes later the engine noise is gone.

You said 10-12 minutes of acceleration, not 10-20 minutes of stop and go
driving.


> Remember, I pointed out that the corporate rep didn't even try to deny
> that there is a problem - he heard it and tried to fix it without
> success. If you are going to call someone on the carpet, why not them?
> They're supposed to be the experts - wheras from a consumer
> perspective I've gone above and beyond the call of duty to be patient
> with the dealer and to self educate myself so that I can be of
> constructive use to them as opposed to screaming, yelling or burning
> bridges (which is what most people in my shoes would have done within
> the first two years let alone five years of this nonsense).

I'm not calling anyone on the carpet. My you are thin-skinned. I
suggested trying a different dealer if this one can't find the problem.


> As for lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for
> me to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year
> factory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service
> records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration
> is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply
> asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration
> - though not lemon law - might still be an option.

Usually there is either a section in your owner's manual that talks
about arbitration and when it can be invoked or in a supplemental
document that comes with the car. If you've read all of these from
cover-to-cover, then you shouldn't need to ask that question here.

Matt

NewsView

Mike Marlow wrote:

"Knowing jargon means absolutely nothing. Your earlier comments
about brake wear in the front versus the rear was a clear indicator
that you do not really understand much about cars - or at least about
brakes. Being able to spout jargon only gets one into trouble if it
isn't backed up by real knowledge. Actually, I doubt you really know
more jargon than the service advisors - simply based on what you've
written."

RE: Mike

Whoa, Mike. I gotta be honest: I'm not sure if you were intentionally
trying to scare me off by brashly claiming I know virtually nothing
about my car, or if you make it your practice to be that "direct" to
everyone you "meet" on this newsgroup. Funny you make that claim
though. I guess "knowing squatt about cars" is why I was hired years
ago by a car dealership to call all the customers who had warranty work
or repairs to see if they were happy and to report their experience
directly to the company president!!!!!

Will you accept some friendly advice, Mike? If you don't know to whom
you speak, first consider biting your tongue. There's no need to get
caught up in a discussion that you don't like. If you can't say
anything nice or helpful, just move on and have a nice life, LOL. BUT
if you insist on being here, than have the decency to allow me to
respond to your cynical conclusions:

I wasn't posting with you in mind when I started this topic. I've
posted here before and "Hyundai Tech" replied and wanted additional
info. in order to help me. As you can see in the title, I'm directing
this thread at one specific person (or type of user, in the event that
that particular user is no longer here). Hyundai-Tech asked the
questions in response to my first post in this newsgroup LAST YEAR. I'm
only doing my belated best to answer them in this thread, while not
excluding the participation of anyone else who might have a similar
experience or potential solution they wish to share. By contrast, what
type of solution did you offer me? "Get Lost?" Sorry, but that's the
only inference I could make based upon the helpfulness of your
response.

Reminder # 1: The topic is the CAR and how to troubleshoot it - not
me and whether or not you or anyone else can discredit my experience or
change the subject.

Reminder # 2: I made NO claim or representation of being a mechanic in
my reply to Matt. Matt was assuming the worst about my automotive
knowledge too - and in that respect he sounded a lot like you.
(Perhaps you go by more than one screen name, Mike?) Understand: I had
a fair right to respond to MATT'S QUESTION to the effect that yes, I
HAVE read my user manual. I HAVE done my homework. I HAVE stood by this
car (despite the problems). I HAVE been polite to my dealer despite the
fact that the "EXPERTS" can't figure this darn thing out any more than
I can. The only thing that might make me an idiot in this situation is
the fact that I didn't file Lemon Law when I had a chance.

Unlike Matt, who at least tried to be helpful in the bulk of his reply,
your response, Mike, offered NOT ONE (1) iota of sympathy for my
five-year ordeal. You are using your post to try to turn the subject
around on me and my credibility instead of pointing the finger at the
Hyundai dealer who is supposed to know what they are doing to repair
THEIR MAKE and honor my business and my warranty. By questioning me and
saying nothing about my car or how to troubleshoot the car, it seems as
if you are trying to run interference in this thread by getting it off
topic (and making it look like something nasty for others to avoid).
Okay, let's say you are right in your assumption that I know squatt
about cars. What I do or do not understand about mechanical theory does
NOT change this REALITY: My car has been in my dealer's service bay for
a total of 50 DAYS since I bought it new! Despite this, I have NEVER
been as blunt or hostile to the service people in all this time as you
just were by basically giving me a "You're an idiot" reply. When my
service department sees me coming, the managers still have the decency
to shake my hand. By contrast, all I've gotten here so far is the
Internet equivalent of the finger. What's there to prove, anyway?

Now if you have any kind of conscience, Mike, you'll be a gentleman -
assuming you are not a rude kid to begin with - and apologize for
assuming that everyone who posts with the words "lemon law" or
"arbitration" has an IQ of 20 just because you are confused or
threatened by what you read. (Speaking of which, why would YOU, Mike,
feel threatened - unless you WORK for Hyundai? Even if you do work
for Hyundai, you aren't the idiot who missed the problems on my car
year after year, Mike. YOU don't work for my dealer. I am not slamming
YOU personally, Mike. So ease up and try not to TAKE things so
personally! For all I know, Mike, you - and your best bud Matt -
could be the smartest people posting to this forum. BUT all I know of
you so far is that you haven't demonstrated any insight into how to
diagnose or fix the two problems I laid out. So let's turn the tables.
You can dish it out. Can you take it? If you REALLY know more than just
"jargon" yourself, prove it to me. Pop Quiz: What is the first
diagnostic or test you would run and why? What is your best educated
guess or explanation for the problems I've described in this thread?
Are you up to the challenge? If not, that's okay. (Really.) I only want
people who feel like being truly HELPFUL or sympathetic to respond to
my posts, anyway. I don't want this thread to degenerate into a TROLL
FEST, which is what will happen if I keep defending my integrity when I
haven't done anything wrong or rude by posting in this PUBLIC
NEWSGROUP in the first place.

Just in case I was speaking a language other than English, let me recap
my FIRST POST:

FACT # 1: I HAVE TALKED to an independent mechanic, whom I trust, who
advises me that having a 50 percent discrepancy between the front and
rear brake wear may suggest a PROBLEM (I point this out because you say
I understand nothing about brakes - so are you going to say that the
mechanic I consulted is ALSO full of BS. too?).

FACT # 2: A DEALER SERVICE ADVISOR admitted that it is NOT typical for
the rear brakes to wear quite this fast compared to the front breaks.
Don't believe the independent mechanic I spoke to? Fine. Don't even
believe the Hyundai service advisor? Fine. Okay, go over to any other
Elantra forum on the Internet and you will see people describing just
such a thing - rear brakes wearing out early as a result of things
like the parking brake or other misadjusted part. Don't believe any of
them, either? I guess it is safe to conclude then, that the whole world
is crazy except for you, Mike!

I'm not afraid to give credit where it is due. Yes, sometimes the rear
brakes DO wear out first on some cars (duh!). But does this mean that
it is NOT good mechanical practice to inspect the braking system and
ABS to rule out the possibility of a co-contributing factor? C'mon,
Mike, PLEASE don't tell me that when the rear brake pads to wear out at
roughly DOUBLE THE RATE as the front brakes, that it is "normal." If
you start talking like that, it would make you sound like a
stereotypical blame-the-idiot-customer-at-all-costs type (although I
have to give my dealership credit where it is deserved - even their
employees haven't stooped THAT low).

In closing, if my particular dealer service department knew anything
more than I do about this persistent engine noise and rear brake/ABS
problem, I wouldn't be HAVING these problems drag on like this. So for
the last time: The dealer has had my car in the shop for 50 days since
I bought it. If that doesn't speak for itself than nothing will.

NewsView

Mike Marlow wrote:

"Knowing jargon means absolutely nothing. Your earlier comments
about brake wear in the front versus the rear was a clear indicator
that you do not really understand much about cars - or at least about
brakes. Being able to spout jargon only gets one into trouble if it
isn't backed up by real knowledge. Actually, I doubt you really know
more jargon than the service advisors - simply based on what you've
written."

RE: Mike

Whoa, Mike. I gotta be honest: I'm not sure if you were intentionally
trying to scare me off by brashly claiming I know virtually nothing
about my car, or if you make it your practice to be that "direct" to
everyone you "meet" on this newsgroup. Funny you make that claim
though. I guess "knowing squatt about cars" is why I was hired years
ago by a car dealership to call all the customers who had warranty work
or repairs to see if they were happy and to report their experience
directly to the company president!!!!!

Will you accept some friendly advice, Mike? If you don't know to whom
you speak, first consider biting your tongue. There's no need to get
caught up in a discussion that you don't like. If you can't say
anything nice or helpful, just move on and have a nice life, LOL. BUT
if you insist on being here, than have the decency to allow me to
respond to your cynical conclusions:

I wasn't posting with you in mind when I started this topic. I've
posted here before and "Hyundai Tech" replied and wanted additional
info. in order to help me. As you can see in the title, I'm directing
this thread at one specific person (or type of user, in the event that
that particular user is no longer here). Hyundai-Tech asked the
questions in response to my first post in this newsgroup LAST YEAR. I'm
only doing my belated best to answer them in this thread, while not
excluding the participation of anyone else who might have a similar
experience or potential solution they wish to share. By contrast, what
type of solution did you offer me? "Get Lost?" Sorry, but that's the
only inference I could make based upon the helpfulness of your
response.

Reminder # 1: The topic is the CAR and how to troubleshoot it - not
me and whether or not you or anyone else can discredit my experience or
change the subject.

Reminder # 2: I made NO claim or representation of being a mechanic in
my reply to Matt. Matt was assuming the worst about my automotive
knowledge too - and in that respect he sounded a lot like you.
(Perhaps you go by more than one screen name, Mike?) Understand: I had
a fair right to respond to MATT'S QUESTION to the effect that yes, I
HAVE read my user manual. I HAVE done my homework. I HAVE stood by this
car (despite the problems). I HAVE been polite to my dealer despite the
fact that the "EXPERTS" can't figure this darn thing out any more than
I can. The only thing that might make me an idiot in this situation is
the fact that I didn't file Lemon Law when I had a chance.

Unlike Matt, who at least tried to be helpful in the bulk of his reply,
your response, Mike, offered NOT ONE (1) iota of sympathy for my
five-year ordeal. You are using your post to try to turn the subject
around on me and my credibility instead of pointing the finger at the
Hyundai dealer who is supposed to know what they are doing to repair
THEIR MAKE and honor my business and my warranty. By questioning me and
saying nothing about my car or how to troubleshoot the car, it seems as
if you are trying to run interference in this thread by getting it off
topic (and making it look like something nasty for others to avoid).
Okay, let's say you are right in your assumption that I know squatt
about cars. What I do or do not understand about mechanical theory does
NOT change this REALITY: My car has been in my dealer's service bay for
a total of 50 DAYS since I bought it new! Despite this, I have NEVER
been as blunt or hostile to the service people in all this time as you
just were by basically giving me a "You're an idiot" reply. When my
service department sees me coming, the managers still have the decency
to shake my hand. By contrast, all I've gotten here so far is the
Internet equivalent of the finger. What's there to prove, anyway?

Now if you have any kind of conscience, Mike, you'll be a gentleman -
assuming you are not a rude kid to begin with - and apologize for
assuming that everyone who posts with the words "lemon law" or
"arbitration" has an IQ of 20 just because you are confused or
threatened by what you read. (Speaking of which, why would YOU, Mike,
feel threatened - unless you WORK for Hyundai? Even if you do work
for Hyundai, you aren't the idiot who missed the problems on my car
year after year, Mike. YOU don't work for my dealer. I am not slamming
YOU personally, Mike. So ease up and try not to TAKE things so
personally! For all I know, Mike, you - and your best bud Matt -
could be the smartest people posting to this forum. BUT all I know of
you so far is that you haven't demonstrated any insight into how to
diagnose or fix the two problems I laid out. So let's turn the tables.
You can dish it out. Can you take it? If you REALLY know more than just
"jargon" yourself, prove it to me. Pop Quiz: What is the first
diagnostic or test you would run and why? What is your best educated
guess or explanation for the problems I've described in this thread?
Are you up to the challenge? If not, that's okay. (Really.) I only want
people who feel like being truly HELPFUL or sympathetic to respond to
my posts, anyway. I don't want this thread to degenerate into a TROLL
FEST, which is what will happen if I keep defending my integrity when I
haven't done anything wrong or rude by posting in this PUBLIC
NEWSGROUP in the first place.

Just in case I was speaking a language other than English, let me recap
my FIRST POST:

FACT # 1: I HAVE TALKED to an independent mechanic, whom I trust, who
advises me that having a 50 percent discrepancy between the front and
rear brake wear may suggest a PROBLEM (I point this out because you say
I understand nothing about brakes - so are you going to say that the
mechanic I consulted is ALSO full of BS. too?).

FACT # 2: A DEALER SERVICE ADVISOR admitted that it is NOT typical for
the rear brakes to wear quite this fast compared to the front breaks.
Don't believe the independent mechanic I spoke to? Fine. Don't even
believe the Hyundai service advisor? Fine. Okay, go over to any other
Elantra forum on the Internet and you will see people describing just
such a thing - rear brakes wearing out early as a result of things
like the parking brake or other misadjusted part. Don't believe any of
them, either? I guess it is safe to conclude then, that the whole world
is crazy except for you, Mike!

I'm not afraid to give credit where it is due. Yes, sometimes the rear
brakes DO wear out first on some cars (duh!). But does this mean that
it is NOT good mechanical practice to inspect the braking system and
ABS to rule out the possibility of a co-contributing factor? C'mon,
Mike, PLEASE don't tell me that when the rear brake pads to wear out at
roughly DOUBLE THE RATE as the front brakes, that it is "normal." If
you start talking like that, it would make you sound like a
stereotypical blame-the-idiot-customer-at-all-costs type (although I
have to give my dealership credit where it is deserved - even their
employees haven't stooped THAT low).

In closing, if my particular dealer service department knew anything
more than I do about this persistent engine noise and rear brake/ABS
problem, I wouldn't be HAVING these problems drag on like this. So for
the last time: The dealer has had my car in the shop for 50 days since
I bought it. If that doesn't speak for itself than nothing will.

Matt Whiting

Tom wrote:

> Let's not turn this into another 'pissing contest'. The guy asked some
> questions and took the pains to explain in detail his problems. I agree
> with Matt that I've never had a car in 45 years that had equal brake wear
> front and rear. All the weight is transferred to the front end on braking
> so that's where all the wear is.
> AND Mike is right that the best way to find out about arbitration is to DO
> IT, if you feel that your problem has not been addressed properly.
>
> As for the 10W40 issue, I've never heard of a problem with that grade
> causing sludge. I'd love to see reference to that problem. I spent an hour
> searching for anything on the net and just found that manufacturers went to
> lower viscosity oils to boost their MPG figures. BMW Z1, Z3, and Z4's still
> recommend 10W40 as well as others as pointed out by the original poster.
> I've used it for many years on cars with more mileage and never had sludge
> problems when I pulled them down or removed the valve covers.

Look at about the 8th paragraph down.
http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html

I can't find the GM recommendation on the net either, but I clearly
remember them coming out with a recommendation to discontinue the use of
10W-40 and threatening to void warranties if its use was continued.
Wide viscosity range oils just don't stand up as well as narrow ranges.
And for high temp use, I'd use a synthetic anyway.


Matt

Matt Whiting

Tom wrote:

> Let's not turn this into another 'pissing contest'. The guy asked some
> questions and took the pains to explain in detail his problems. I agree
> with Matt that I've never had a car in 45 years that had equal brake wear
> front and rear. All the weight is transferred to the front end on braking
> so that's where all the wear is.
> AND Mike is right that the best way to find out about arbitration is to DO
> IT, if you feel that your problem has not been addressed properly.
>
> As for the 10W40 issue, I've never heard of a problem with that grade
> causing sludge. I'd love to see reference to that problem. I spent an hour
> searching for anything on the net and just found that manufacturers went to
> lower viscosity oils to boost their MPG figures. BMW Z1, Z3, and Z4's still
> recommend 10W40 as well as others as pointed out by the original poster.
> I've used it for many years on cars with more mileage and never had sludge
> problems when I pulled them down or removed the valve covers.

Look at about the 8th paragraph down.
http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html

I can't find the GM recommendation on the net either, but I clearly
remember them coming out with a recommendation to discontinue the use of
10W-40 and threatening to void warranties if its use was continued.
Wide viscosity range oils just don't stand up as well as narrow ranges.
And for high temp use, I'd use a synthetic anyway.


Matt