Deck

After reading all the horror stories about the 03 Tiberon clutch/flywheel
problems, that Hyundai WON"T fix, just wondering af they are fixing any
other problems with drive trains on their cars under the 100,000 mile
warranty? Now that I have two Hyundai's, I shudder to think that they
won't honor warranties!

Hal

On Feb 17, 10:02 am, "Deck" <dec...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> After reading all the horror stories about the 03 Tiberon clutch/flywheel
> problems, that Hyundai WON"T fix, just wondering af they are fixing any
> other problems with drive trains on their cars under the 100,000 mile
> warranty? Now that I have two Hyundai's, I shudder to think that they
> won't honor warranties!

The best advice I can give you regarding the clutch issues is to
remove the 'pressure valve' from the end of the clutch slave cylinder.
It's a stupid piece of engineering that guarantees you a premature
clutch failure. It's not hard to do, remove the slave cylinder from
the transaxle, remove the banjo bolt from the end of the slave
cylinder, take out the tiny spring and the clip, reinstall banjo bolt,
reinstall slave, bleed hydraulics. It would probably take anyone with
a set of hand tools and some common sense less than an hour; someone
with a little more experience can probably get it done in about 20
minutes.

Having not seen a hyundai flywheel considered to be damaged beyond
repair, I can't comment on that. But in my experience I've yet to do a
clutch job where I wasn't able to have a competent machine shop re-
deck the friction surface for about 30 bucks.

Chris

Matt Whiting

Hal wrote:
> On Feb 17, 10:02 am, "Deck" <dec...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>After reading all the horror stories about the 03 Tiberon clutch/flywheel
>>problems, that Hyundai WON"T fix, just wondering af they are fixing any
>>other problems with drive trains on their cars under the 100,000 mile
>>warranty? Now that I have two Hyundai's, I shudder to think that they
>>won't honor warranties!
>
>
> The best advice I can give you regarding the clutch issues is to
> remove the 'pressure valve' from the end of the clutch slave cylinder.
> It's a stupid piece of engineering that guarantees you a premature
> clutch failure. It's not hard to do, remove the slave cylinder from
> the transaxle, remove the banjo bolt from the end of the slave
> cylinder, take out the tiny spring and the clip, reinstall banjo bolt,
> reinstall slave, bleed hydraulics. It would probably take anyone with
> a set of hand tools and some common sense less than an hour; someone
> with a little more experience can probably get it done in about 20
> minutes.

How does it guarantee a clutch failure? If you don't get on the
throttle too quickly, the clutch will still be fully engaged and not
slip. I think this valve is a dumb idea, but my 06 Sonata can be driven
such that the clutch doesn't slip. It does require much coordination
than should be necessary, but I don't see how it "guarantees a premature
clutch failure."

Matt

Hal

> How does it guarantee a clutch failure? If you don't get on the
> throttle too quickly, the clutch will still be fully engaged and not
> slip. I think this valve is a dumb idea, but my 06 Sonata can be driven
> such that the clutch doesn't slip. It does require much coordination
> than should be necessary, but I don't see how it "guarantees a premature
> clutch failure."
>
> Matt

If you take your foot off the clutch the clutch should retract
instantly. As in, as soon as your foot is off the pedal the clutch is
fully engaged. With hyundai's system, that isn't the case. The small
valve in the slave cylinder restricts the flow of brake fluid trying
to get back to the master cylinder, and as such, it delays full
engagement. I'd rather have the clutch engage when it is supposed to
instead of having it scrub the life right out of the disc every time I
change gears.

Having to think ahead and 'coordinate' to get around a feature as you
describe is just absurd. I can especially feel the pain for the folks
with the tiburon. What kind of idiot puts a system purposely designed
to delay clutch engagement on a sports car? C'mon..gimme a break. A
clutch should last 100,000 at a minimum.

Chris

Rev. Tom Wenndt

Hal said: "It would probably take anyone with a set of hand tools and some
common sense less than an hour; someone with a little more experience can
probably get it done in about 20 minutes."......

Which probably means it would take me 4-5 hours. Common sense I have -
common mechanical sense is a problem. :-)

Tom Wenndt

"Hal" <halatos@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1171740439.524625.4910@v33g2000cwv.googlegrou ps.com...
> On Feb 17, 10:02 am, "Deck" <dec...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> After reading all the horror stories about the 03 Tiberon clutch/flywheel
>> problems, that Hyundai WON"T fix, just wondering af they are fixing any
>> other problems with drive trains on their cars under the 100,000 mile
>> warranty? Now that I have two Hyundai's, I shudder to think that they
>> won't honor warranties!
>
> The best advice I can give you regarding the clutch issues is to
> remove the 'pressure valve' from the end of the clutch slave cylinder.
> It's a stupid piece of engineering that guarantees you a premature
> clutch failure. It's not hard to do, remove the slave cylinder from
> the transaxle, remove the banjo bolt from the end of the slave
> cylinder, take out the tiny spring and the clip, reinstall banjo bolt,
> reinstall slave, bleed hydraulics. It would probably take anyone with
> a set of hand tools and some common sense less than an hour; someone
> with a little more experience can probably get it done in about 20
> minutes.
>
> Having not seen a hyundai flywheel considered to be damaged beyond
> repair, I can't comment on that. But in my experience I've yet to do a
> clutch job where I wasn't able to have a competent machine shop re-
> deck the friction surface for about 30 bucks.
>
> Chris
>

Matt Whiting

Hal wrote:
>>How does it guarantee a clutch failure? If you don't get on the
>>throttle too quickly, the clutch will still be fully engaged and not
>>slip. I think this valve is a dumb idea, but my 06 Sonata can be driven
>>such that the clutch doesn't slip. It does require much coordination
>>than should be necessary, but I don't see how it "guarantees a premature
>>clutch failure."
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> If you take your foot off the clutch the clutch should retract
> instantly. As in, as soon as your foot is off the pedal the clutch is
> fully engaged. With hyundai's system, that isn't the case. The small
> valve in the slave cylinder restricts the flow of brake fluid trying
> to get back to the master cylinder, and as such, it delays full
> engagement. I'd rather have the clutch engage when it is supposed to
> instead of having it scrub the life right out of the disc every time I
> change gears.
>
> Having to think ahead and 'coordinate' to get around a feature as you
> describe is just absurd. I can especially feel the pain for the folks
> with the tiburon. What kind of idiot puts a system purposely designed
> to delay clutch engagement on a sports car? C'mon..gimme a break. A
> clutch should last 100,000 at a minimum.

In normal driving, yes. In spirited driving, not necessarily. Used
hard a clutch will wear out faster just as brakes wear out faster. I
really doubt that the valve in the clutch is causing the premature
wear-out. I think it is the aggressive driving. If you read the site
that tells how to remove the valve, the guy who wrote that even admits
as much.

Matt

Edwin Pawlowski

"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
> In normal driving, yes. In spirited driving, not necessarily. Used hard
> a clutch will wear out faster just as brakes wear out faster. I really
> doubt that the valve in the clutch is causing the premature wear-out. I
> think it is the aggressive driving.

Totally agree. Today, I could probably get 200k out of a clutch. When I was
18, I'd be happy to get 20,000.

Mike Marlow

"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
news:HwOBh.2706$Oc.160187@news1.epix.net...
> Hal wrote:
> >>How does it guarantee a clutch failure? If you don't get on the
> >>throttle too quickly, the clutch will still be fully engaged and not
> >>slip. I think this valve is a dumb idea, but my 06 Sonata can be driven
> >>such that the clutch doesn't slip. It does require much coordination
> >>than should be necessary, but I don't see how it "guarantees a premature
> >>clutch failure."
> >>
> >>Matt
> >
> >
> > If you take your foot off the clutch the clutch should retract
> > instantly. As in, as soon as your foot is off the pedal the clutch is
> > fully engaged. With hyundai's system, that isn't the case. The small
> > valve in the slave cylinder restricts the flow of brake fluid trying
> > to get back to the master cylinder, and as such, it delays full
> > engagement. I'd rather have the clutch engage when it is supposed to
> > instead of having it scrub the life right out of the disc every time I
> > change gears.
> >
> > Having to think ahead and 'coordinate' to get around a feature as you
> > describe is just absurd. I can especially feel the pain for the folks
> > with the tiburon. What kind of idiot puts a system purposely designed
> > to delay clutch engagement on a sports car? C'mon..gimme a break. A
> > clutch should last 100,000 at a minimum.
>
> In normal driving, yes. In spirited driving, not necessarily. Used
> hard a clutch will wear out faster just as brakes wear out faster. I
> really doubt that the valve in the clutch is causing the premature
> wear-out. I think it is the aggressive driving. If you read the site
> that tells how to remove the valve, the guy who wrote that even admits
> as much.
>

Well, I'm not sure this comment really sides one way or another, but it's a
clutch comment all the same. I had a Chevy S-10 with a 4 speed standard
that I plowed snow with. As I've said before, I live in upstate NY where we
get a ton of snow in the winter. I put 176,000 miles on that truck, plowing
snow every winter before it finally got totaled in a roll-over. I suspect
the abuse on that clutch was every bit equal to the abuse that aggressive
driving would create. Aggressive driving is really not that abusive if you
are not dumping the clutch. If the clutch is engaging properly, the amount
of acceleration is irrelevant, just as the amount of work was irrelevant to
my truck. Clutches wear when they slip on the flywheel face. Aggressive
driving does not usually slip a clutch. Actually, more conservative driving
tends to slip a clutch more than aggressive driving does. In my case, I
installed exactly 0 clutches in that S-10 over its lifetime.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

Matt Whiting

Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
> news:HwOBh.2706$Oc.160187@news1.epix.net...
>
>>Hal wrote:
>>
>>>>How does it guarantee a clutch failure? If you don't get on the
>>>>throttle too quickly, the clutch will still be fully engaged and not
>>>>slip. I think this valve is a dumb idea, but my 06 Sonata can be driven
>>>>such that the clutch doesn't slip. It does require much coordination
>>>>than should be necessary, but I don't see how it "guarantees a premature
>>>>clutch failure."
>>>>
>>>>Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>If you take your foot off the clutch the clutch should retract
>>>instantly. As in, as soon as your foot is off the pedal the clutch is
>>>fully engaged. With hyundai's system, that isn't the case. The small
>>>valve in the slave cylinder restricts the flow of brake fluid trying
>>>to get back to the master cylinder, and as such, it delays full
>>>engagement. I'd rather have the clutch engage when it is supposed to
>>>instead of having it scrub the life right out of the disc every time I
>>>change gears.
>>>
>>>Having to think ahead and 'coordinate' to get around a feature as you
>>>describe is just absurd. I can especially feel the pain for the folks
>>>with the tiburon. What kind of idiot puts a system purposely designed
>>>to delay clutch engagement on a sports car? C'mon..gimme a break. A
>>>clutch should last 100,000 at a minimum.
>>
>>In normal driving, yes. In spirited driving, not necessarily. Used
>>hard a clutch will wear out faster just as brakes wear out faster. I
>>really doubt that the valve in the clutch is causing the premature
>>wear-out. I think it is the aggressive driving. If you read the site
>>that tells how to remove the valve, the guy who wrote that even admits
>>as much.
>>
>
>
> Well, I'm not sure this comment really sides one way or another, but it's a
> clutch comment all the same. I had a Chevy S-10 with a 4 speed standard
> that I plowed snow with. As I've said before, I live in upstate NY where we
> get a ton of snow in the winter. I put 176,000 miles on that truck, plowing
> snow every winter before it finally got totaled in a roll-over. I suspect
> the abuse on that clutch was every bit equal to the abuse that aggressive
> driving would create. Aggressive driving is really not that abusive if you
> are not dumping the clutch. If the clutch is engaging properly, the amount
> of acceleration is irrelevant, just as the amount of work was irrelevant to
> my truck. Clutches wear when they slip on the flywheel face. Aggressive
> driving does not usually slip a clutch. Actually, more conservative driving
> tends to slip a clutch more than aggressive driving does. In my case, I
> installed exactly 0 clutches in that S-10 over its lifetime.

I plow snow with my 5-speed K1500 also and I don't think it abuses the
clutch at all. I drove OTR trucks for a number of years so I'm pretty
familiar with shifting. :-)

The problem is that most drivers today aren't taught how to drive a
standard shift car properly. I ride with people all of the time that
make me cringe when they start out and shift, but up and down. The rev
to 2500 RPM when the light turns green and then feed in the clutch
slowly to get a fast launch. This is fine for the drag strip, but wears
both clutch and pressure plate heavily and can cause heat damage if done
in succession too many times. And when upshifting they get on th
throttle before engaging the clutch and the car lurches forward as the
inertia in the engine is dissipated. And then on the downshifts, there
is no blipping of the throttle to match the flywheel speed to the input
shaft speed and slippage occurs again. This happens much more often
during spirited driving than during more sedate driving. In my pickup,
I can start out with the RPM never getting above 1,000 (it idles at 700)
and never stall it. I can match the RPM pretty well on both up and down
shifts such that little slippage occurs. I don't know how long the
clutch in the truck will last, but it is working fine at 97,000 miles,
including plowing snow which does require a lot more starts and stops
per mile than normal driving!

I'll be the first to admit that the Sonata is the worst standard shift
car I've ever owned. It is very hard to modulate the throttle and I
often rev to 1500 or even 2000 RPM if I get on the throttle just a
little ahead of the clutch. Alternatively, it is easy to get the clutch
just a little ahead and stall the car, especially if starting out going
uphill. I've gotten better with practice, but it isn't an easy car to
drive well with standard shift and I can see where the clutch wear in
the Sonata will be much higher than in similar cars with a well designed
throttle. However, I think the issue IS the electronic throttle much
more so than the valve in the clutch cylinder. Having said that, if I
get time, I would consider removing mine as well as I don't see it being
necessary either. I don't believe that will automatically quadruple the
life of my clutch, however.


Matt

Edwin Pawlowski

"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
> The problem is that most drivers today aren't taught how to drive a
> standard shift car properly. I ride with people all of the time that make
> me cringe when they start out and shift, but up and down. The rev to 2500
> RPM when the light turns green and then feed in the clutch slowly to get a
> fast launch. This is fine for the drag strip, but wears both clutch and
> pressure plate heavily and can cause heat damage if done in succession too
> many times. And when upshifting they get on th throttle before engaging
> the clutch and the car lurches forward as the inertia in the engine is
> dissipated. And then on the downshifts, there is no blipping of the
> throttle to match the flywheel speed to the input shaft speed and slippage
> occurs again.

I know lots of drivers that have never driven a standard transmission, and
never will.

OTOH, I got a free lunch a few months back. I took the company pickup, a
Silverado with 5 speed and bet the guy I was with that I could drive to the
restaurant and only use the clutch to start out and when I stopped. He said
it was impossible. He bought lunch.

Brian Nystrom

Hal wrote:
> On Feb 17, 10:02 am, "Deck" <dec...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> After reading all the horror stories about the 03 Tiberon clutch/flywheel
>> problems, that Hyundai WON"T fix, just wondering af they are fixing any
>> other problems with drive trains on their cars under the 100,000 mile
>> warranty? Now that I have two Hyundai's, I shudder to think that they
>> won't honor warranties!
>
> The best advice I can give you regarding the clutch issues is to
> remove the 'pressure valve' from the end of the clutch slave cylinder.
> It's a stupid piece of engineering that guarantees you a premature
> clutch failure. It's not hard to do, remove the slave cylinder from
> the transaxle, remove the banjo bolt from the end of the slave
> cylinder, take out the tiny spring and the clip, reinstall banjo bolt,
> reinstall slave, bleed hydraulics. It would probably take anyone with
> a set of hand tools and some common sense less than an hour; someone
> with a little more experience can probably get it done in about 20
> minutes.

It's not necessary to remove the slave cylinder from the transaxle. As
soon as you remove the banjo bolt, the parts are accessible. Although
people always remove the spring, the only part you need to remove is the
valve itself (a small steel cap with a tiny hole in it).

Another good reason for doing this is that contamination in the clutch
fluid can clog or reduce the opening size in the valve, causing
excessive clutch slippage, even after normal shifts. The valve is a bad
that was intended to make shifting easier for incompetent drivers and
beginners. It's nothing but a handicap for anyone who knows how to shift
properly, as all it does is slow down clutch engagement and make less
inconsistent.

Deck

I wasn't asking about the clutch. It is documented that it is a faulty
design. The question WAS: Have you had any warranty repairs on ANY drive
train parts that Hyundai actually paid for???

Richard Dreyfuss

Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote in
> In my pickup, I can start out with
> the RPM never getting above 1,000 (it idles at 700) and never stall
> it.

Is your truck diesel? I can't imagine getting any kind of acceleration
on my 01 elantra at or below 1k rpm. I'll try it tonight on the way
out, but it sure seems like it'd be lugged horribly, well below its
useful powerband. Difference in engine characteristics perhaps, more
torque at the lower rpm?

And I've got 120k miles right now on the 1st clutch in the car, the
first 60k happening back when I used it for a restaurant delivery job.

Ben

Matt Whiting

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
>
>>The problem is that most drivers today aren't taught how to drive a
>>standard shift car properly. I ride with people all of the time that make
>>me cringe when they start out and shift, but up and down. The rev to 2500
>>RPM when the light turns green and then feed in the clutch slowly to get a
>>fast launch. This is fine for the drag strip, but wears both clutch and
>>pressure plate heavily and can cause heat damage if done in succession too
>>many times. And when upshifting they get on th throttle before engaging
>>the clutch and the car lurches forward as the inertia in the engine is
>>dissipated. And then on the downshifts, there is no blipping of the
>>throttle to match the flywheel speed to the input shaft speed and slippage
>>occurs again.
>
>
> I know lots of drivers that have never driven a standard transmission, and
> never will.
>
> OTOH, I got a free lunch a few months back. I took the company pickup, a
> Silverado with 5 speed and bet the guy I was with that I could drive to the
> restaurant and only use the clutch to start out and when I stopped. He said
> it was impossible. He bought lunch.

If I can park on a slight grade, I don't need the clutch at all! :-)

However, this is still pretty rough on the synchros and I wouldn't
recommend it as a normal course of action. :-)


Matt

Matt Whiting

Richard Dreyfuss wrote:

> Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote in
>
>>In my pickup, I can start out with
>>the RPM never getting above 1,000 (it idles at 700) and never stall
>>it.
>
>
> Is your truck diesel? I can't imagine getting any kind of acceleration
> on my 01 elantra at or below 1k rpm. I'll try it tonight on the way
> out, but it sure seems like it'd be lugged horribly, well below its
> useful powerband. Difference in engine characteristics perhaps, more
> torque at the lower rpm?

No, it is a 4.3L V-6, but it does have 4.56 ratio differentials. Unless
you are racing or it is an emergency, you really shouldn't be trying to
accelerate hard when you are just starting out. Save the acceleration
for once the clutch is fully engaged.

And, yes, this engine has a lot more low-end torque than many newer
engines, especially the little 4 cylinders. However, on level ground,
there is no reason that even a 4 cylinder shouldn't have the ability to
start out with revs in the 1,000 to 1,250 range for normal driving. My
Sonata certainly has the torque to do that, it just doesn't have a
throttle that modulates precisely enough to keep the engine in that rev
range. My truck has a much more controllable throttle. I can easily
modulate it when starting out to keep the engine RPM between idle and
1,000 until the clutch is fully engaged (which takes only 5-10' of
forward travel). At that point, you can accelerate to your heart's
content and not bother the clutch at all.


> And I've got 120k miles right now on the 1st clutch in the car, the
> first 60k happening back when I used it for a restaurant delivery job.

That sounds perfectly normal. As Ed or someone said earlier, a modern
clutch driven properly should last 200,000 miles. I've owned standard
shift cars since my first car (a 1972 Opel Manta) and I've NEVER
replaced a clutch. I've taken several cars past 100K and never yet had
a clutch fail.


Matt