Wayne Moses

Reply to message from Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> (Tue, 10 Apr 2007 06:
11:22) about "Re: Would you buy another Hyundai?":

MW> What really irked me was the treatment by Honda.

Now that I can understand because both in Canada and here in the US I am
yet to go into a Honda dealership and not see some degree of smugness. I
also went into a GM (yeah GM!) dealer once and encountered that same
bullsh*t. Full of themselves they were and had no time to even bother
themselves to come over to me to see if I needed any assistance.

MW> Well, I've never had an engine fail that completely before or since
MW> and I don't consider 72,000 miles to be acceptable life for a modern
MW> engine

Well, based on your description of the level of care you gave that car, it
certainly appears to have failed prematurely. I think that Honda could have
done a heck of a lot more in the interest of customer relations in your
case.

MW> I haven't bought
MW> a Honda since and never will again.

I understand. I think that Honda could have done a lot more to avoid that
and the possible loss of business due to word of month.

All of the above aside, I am _totally_ unconvinced that model on model GM
engineering can be compared with Honda *or even Hyundai*.

The arguments you made easily indicate you had a crappy Honda and their
handling of the issue was just as crappy, but it did not prove that GM
vehicles in general, and model for model, were more reliable or better by
any yardstick than Honda. I have had friends recount similar experiences
with their GM cars as you had with your Honda.

Best Regards
Wayne Moses <wmoses@houston.rr.com> Tue, 10 Apr 2007 18:25:30 -0500

=== Posted with Qusnetsoft NewsReader 3.3

Wayne Moses

Reply to message from Harry Smith <6of9> (Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:50:48) about
"Re: Would you buy another Hyundai?":

HS> Our family owns several Sonatas and love them. We still have a 1989 GL
HS> with over 311K miles on it, and it runs great, all the power stuff
HS> works, etc.

Hey a 1989 Sonata GL eh? That was the car that started it all for me. Black
5-speed with A/C and no power anything other than steering. Great basic
car.

Best Regards
Wayne Moses <wmoses@houston.rr.com> Tue, 10 Apr 2007 19:09:09 -0500

=== Posted with Qusnetsoft NewsReader 3.3

Matt Whiting

Wayne Moses wrote:

> The arguments you made easily indicate you had a crappy Honda and their
> handling of the issue was just as crappy, but it did not prove that GM
> vehicles in general, and model for model, were more reliable or better by
> any yardstick than Honda. I have had friends recount similar experiences
> with their GM cars as you had with your Honda.

My GM experience has been more with trucks than cars. A Chevy truck is
hard to beat, I don't care what anyone says. I had to laugh as the
Toyota salesman was salivating when he saw that my current vehicle was a
94. He made some comment about my current truck being about done in,
and I said that it was just getting broke in! And I wasn't joking. It
runs like a top and has almost no rust and the interior looks like new
other than a few stains on the carpet. The drive train has only
required replacement of one U-joint on the front drive shaft and brake
pads and shoes in 95,000 miles of plowing snow and hauling firewood.
The clutch is original, the shocks are original, the engine is basically
untouched (yes, original water pump, starter, alternator, etc.) other
than maintenance items like hoses, belts, spark plugs and filters. This
truck sees more time in 4-wheel drive in one winter than most Toyota or
Nissan trucks see in a lifetime of running to the mall! :-)

I'm less impressed with GM's cars as I get Pontiacs as rentals all the
time, but I had a Buick Park Avenue rental a few years ago for a fairly
long trip and it wasn't a half bad car. Other than steering that was
too vague and a ride that was too mushy, it was a decent car. And it
got 30 MPG running at 80 MPH on a 7 hour trip! And this for a large car
that had pretty good performance. It got as good a mileage as my
standard shift, 4 cylinder Sonata gets!!

I personally believe that the engineering of the American brands is
still as good as anyone, even the Japanese, but the assembly just isn't
up to par. I still pretty much believe the old saying though that "A GM
will run bad longer than most cars will run."


Matt

Deck

so far I haven't had any salt/cinder problems here in the winter in San
Diego!!

Brian Nystrom

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Wayne Moses wrote:
>> Reply to message from "KWW" <kirk.walker ahyt aircooled doht neyt>
>> (Sat, 07 Apr 2007 07:23:27) about "Re: Would you buy another Hyundai?":
>> K> So either a GM or a Honda would probably be my next car....
>> He he he ... unbelievable that you would consider these two side by
>> side. To me they are worlds apart.
>
> I agree. After the new 84 Accord that I bought when had its top-end
> self-destruct at 72,000 miles, I would never insult GM by lumping them
> with Honda! What an insult to GM.

One anecdotal data point is essentially meaningless in the overall
context of product quality. Defects happen. The difference is that
serious problems like yours are considered rare for Honda, but it would
be run-of-the-mill for GM. While you have every right to be angry at
Honda and refuse to buy their products in the future, don't kid yourself
that you'd get a better product by buying GM. The fact that Honda is
thriving and GM is still on the verge of going belly-up should tell you
something.

Mike Marlow

"Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:7P4Th.5561$Lm.5036@trndny05...
> Matt Whiting wrote:
> > Wayne Moses wrote:
> >> Reply to message from "KWW" <kirk.walker ahyt aircooled doht neyt>
> >> (Sat, 07 Apr 2007 07:23:27) about "Re: Would you buy another Hyundai?":
> >> K> So either a GM or a Honda would probably be my next car....
> >> He he he ... unbelievable that you would consider these two side by
> >> side. To me they are worlds apart.
> >
> > I agree. After the new 84 Accord that I bought when had its top-end
> > self-destruct at 72,000 miles, I would never insult GM by lumping them
> > with Honda! What an insult to GM.
>
> One anecdotal data point is essentially meaningless in the overall
> context of product quality. Defects happen. The difference is that
> serious problems like yours are considered rare for Honda, but it would
> be run-of-the-mill for GM. While you have every right to be angry at
> Honda and refuse to buy their products in the future, don't kid yourself
> that you'd get a better product by buying GM. The fact that Honda is
> thriving and GM is still on the verge of going belly-up should tell you
> something.
>
>

Well - I wouldn't go that far Brian. GM certainly does have some
longstanding issues that have earned them some of the public mistrust that
they are currently subject to, and I'm happy they're reaping the rewards of
some of their heavy handed, customer last attitudes of recent times. That
said, the experience of the previous poster is in no way typical of GM owner
experiences. I've owned plenty of GM's and have lots of family and friends
who have owned plenty of imports of all sorts, Honda well included. GM
buyers have enjoyed a great deal of solid design and build, long lived,
excellent cars. That includes cars of the most recent vintage, despite some
of the problems that should have been fixed long ago. I certainly would not
characterize GM products as inferior to any other. GM corporate attitudes,
and the manner in which GM has responded to its customer base? Well, that's
a different story.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

Wayne Moses

Reply to message from Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> (Tue, 10 Apr 2007 19:
36:00) about "Re: Would you buy another Hyundai?":

MW> My GM experience has been more with trucks than cars. A Chevy truck is
MW> hard to beat, I don't care what anyone says.

Apparently Ford owners see things very differently. The Ford F-150 is the
US best selling vehicle (not just truck) for the past 24 years.

I would also not dismiss the 2007 Toyota Tundra.

Best Regards
Wayne Moses <wmoses@houston.rr.com> Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:57:27 -0500

=== Posted with Qusnetsoft NewsReader 3.3

Matt Whiting

Wayne Moses wrote:
> Reply to message from Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> (Tue, 10 Apr 2007 19:
> 36:00) about "Re: Would you buy another Hyundai?":
>
> MW> My GM experience has been more with trucks than cars. A Chevy truck is
> MW> hard to beat, I don't care what anyone says.
>
> Apparently Ford owners see things very differently. The Ford F-150 is the
> US best selling vehicle (not just truck) for the past 24 years.

All things must come to and end. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17467382/

Also, often the Ford sales figures are compared to Chevrolet only, not
to GM, which includes both the Chevy and GMC brands.
http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/auto...nterview1.html

Also, folks that buy Fords aren't known for having high IQs. :-)


> I would also not dismiss the 2007 Toyota Tundra.

I won't ask you to dismiss it, but I've already dismissed it. It didn't
impress me overall any more than my current 1994 Chevy. Have you
driven one?

I'm hoping that Hyundai produces a pickup before I need to replace mine.
However, if it looks anything like the Kia concept pickup ... I won't
touch it with a 10' pole. That thing is butt ugly.


Matt

Eric G.

Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote in
news:_9fTh.3711$Oc.190172@news1.epix.net:


> Also, folks that buy Fords aren't known for having high IQs. :-)

Hey! I resemble that remark :-) OK, I confess to dumbing down to an F-150
in 1999. I leased it too (what a dumb move that was). I also got rid of
it before the lease was up because of too many problems to list here. It
was a POS.

The biggest problem I had with that truck was that a welded seam on each
door (first the driver side, than about 6 months later the passenger side)
cracked/split on me. It took two months fighting with Ford to get them to
fix it the first time. And that was only after I had proof from two other
people that Ford had already paid to fix the same problem on their trucks.

It was a fiasco to say the least.

But at the time, the F-150 really drove better, and offered more for the
money, than the Chevy.

Can I qualify for an IQ boost now since I got rid of the thing?

Eric

Matt Whiting

Eric G. wrote:
> Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote in
> news:_9fTh.3711$Oc.190172@news1.epix.net:
>
>
>> Also, folks that buy Fords aren't known for having high IQs. :-)
>
> Hey! I resemble that remark :-) OK, I confess to dumbing down to an F-150
> in 1999. I leased it too (what a dumb move that was). I also got rid of
> it before the lease was up because of too many problems to list here. It
> was a POS.
>
> The biggest problem I had with that truck was that a welded seam on each
> door (first the driver side, than about 6 months later the passenger side)
> cracked/split on me. It took two months fighting with Ford to get them to
> fix it the first time. And that was only after I had proof from two other
> people that Ford had already paid to fix the same problem on their trucks.
>
> It was a fiasco to say the least.
>
> But at the time, the F-150 really drove better, and offered more for the
> money, than the Chevy.
>
> Can I qualify for an IQ boost now since I got rid of the thing?

Certainly! And if you buy a Chevy, you'll gain another 10 points!! :-)

I have nothing against Fords, but the only vehicle they make that I
really like is the Mustang. Everything else is pretty pedestrian.

I'm still hoping the Hyundai and Chrysler get together. I think that
could be a really nice combination! Take a Dodge Ram and give it
Hyundai assembly quality and that would be a killer truck. Same with a
the Chrysler minivans, although the Hyundai minivan is pretty good
already, I still like the Chrysler design better.

Matt

Wayne Moses

Reply to message from Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> (Wed, 11 Apr 2007 19:
36:10) about "Re: Would you buy another Hyundai?":

MW> I won't ask you to dismiss it, but I've already dismissed it. It
MW> didn't impress me overall any more than my current
MW> 1994 Chevy. Have you driven one?

I am afraid not. I have no interest in pickup trucks at this time and when
I retire and get a 5th wheel I would be looking for a dualie. Most likely
not a GM unless their designers smarten up and continue the new direction
that they appear to be taking with the new Silverado. At this time I admire
Ford dualies.

Best Regards
Wayne Moses <wmoses@houston.rr.com> Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:35:02 -0500

=== Posted with Qusnetsoft NewsReader 3.3

Jack Cassidy

"Edwin Pawlowski" <esp@snet.net> wrote in message
newsCYRh.12917$JZ3.4947@newssvr13.news.prodigy.n et...
>
> "Deck" <decan9@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:95f211ba66fec4fb48e83c6718135c91@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
>>I have an 03 Elantra and an 06 Sonata LX. Like both cars. The Elantra for
>> around town. The Sonata would be good on the highway if it didn't have
>> those 17 inch HARD tires..Probably buy another Mercury Grand Marquis for
>> the road. I got better mileage on my last Merc than I'm getting on this
>> Sonara..and it rode a whale of a lot better!!
>
> You are right that the Grand M rides a WHALE of a lot better. Felt like
> it was a huge whale wallowing around the sea.
>
> I rented a Grand Marquis back in December for four days. I drove out of
> Las Vegas toward Death Valley and the road curved a bit as it climbed over
> the mountain. It was real work to keep it between the yellow lines. I
> was wishing I was back in my Sonata so I could be going 10 mph faster and
> have better control. Nice car for when you take the grandparents out for
> dinner, but not what I want under me under serious driving conditions. To
> each his own.

All Mercury Grand Marquis' are not created equal. My wife's 2000 Grand
Marquis came with a handling package that included air ride suspension, 373
Rear, dual exhausts, speed rated tires and traction assist. It is a BIG,
fast, comfortable, reasonably handling car.
At 107,000 miles it will soon need spark plugs. It has been extremely
dependable and will probably be replaced with something similar when it gets
to around 200,000, as was her last 1992 Crown Victoria. My pickup truck is a
1999 F250 4X4 V-10 Ford Super Duty which will most likely outlast me. It has
close to 100,000 miles on it now, about 65,000 of those towing a 30' travel
trailer. The only reason I bought a Hyundai was gas mileage (30 as opposed
to 10 with the pickup) The Hyundai (2005 Accord) Has been very reliable so
far, and I drive it 80 miles a day back and forth to work. The only
complaint I have is one I have heard from almost half of the Hyundai owners
I know, Poor dealerships. I wanted the cheapest car I could buy that had a
big warrantee, Then the dealer tried to bury us with things that I did not
want or need. Be careful what you sigh, make sure all the spaces are filled
in and re-check all the paperwork when you get home. I have been buying new
Fords since 1977 and NEVER had a Ford dealer try to pull what the Hyundai
dealer did.
The Hyundai rides like a buckboard, and it is more like wearing it than
driving it, But it is very reliable and cheap to operate.

Jack Cassidy

Matt Whiting

Wayne Moses wrote:
> Reply to message from Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> (Wed, 11 Apr 2007 19:
> 36:10) about "Re: Would you buy another Hyundai?":
>
> MW> I won't ask you to dismiss it, but I've already dismissed it. It
> MW> didn't impress me overall any more than my current
> MW> 1994 Chevy. Have you driven one?
>
> I am afraid not. I have no interest in pickup trucks at this time and when
> I retire and get a 5th wheel I would be looking for a dualie. Most likely
> not a GM unless their designers smarten up and continue the new direction
> that they appear to be taking with the new Silverado. At this time I admire
> Ford dualies.

My condolences. :-)

Matt

Brian Nystrom

Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:7P4Th.5561$Lm.5036@trndny05...
>> Matt Whiting wrote:
>>> Wayne Moses wrote:
>>>> Reply to message from "KWW" <kirk.walker ahyt aircooled doht neyt>
>>>> (Sat, 07 Apr 2007 07:23:27) about "Re: Would you buy another Hyundai?":
>>>> K> So either a GM or a Honda would probably be my next car....
>>>> He he he ... unbelievable that you would consider these two side by
>>>> side. To me they are worlds apart.
>>> I agree. After the new 84 Accord that I bought when had its top-end
>>> self-destruct at 72,000 miles, I would never insult GM by lumping them
>>> with Honda! What an insult to GM.
>> One anecdotal data point is essentially meaningless in the overall
>> context of product quality. Defects happen. The difference is that
>> serious problems like yours are considered rare for Honda, but it would
>> be run-of-the-mill for GM. While you have every right to be angry at
>> Honda and refuse to buy their products in the future, don't kid yourself
>> that you'd get a better product by buying GM. The fact that Honda is
>> thriving and GM is still on the verge of going belly-up should tell you
>> something.
>>
>>
>
> Well - I wouldn't go that far Brian. GM certainly does have some
> longstanding issues that have earned them some of the public mistrust that
> they are currently subject to, and I'm happy they're reaping the rewards of
> some of their heavy handed, customer last attitudes of recent times. That
> said, the experience of the previous poster is in no way typical of GM owner
> experiences. I've owned plenty of GM's and have lots of family and friends
> who have owned plenty of imports of all sorts, Honda well included. GM
> buyers have enjoyed a great deal of solid design and build, long lived,
> excellent cars. That includes cars of the most recent vintage, despite some
> of the problems that should have been fixed long ago. I certainly would not
> characterize GM products as inferior to any other. GM corporate attitudes,
> and the manner in which GM has responded to its customer base? Well, that's
> a different story.

In the words of former GM exec Alfred Sloane "General Motors is not in
the business of making cars, it's in the business of making money." It's
pretty obvious that they still live by that philosophy. I would never
trust any company that demonstrates the level of contempt for their
customers that GM has for decades. No matter how many times they get
hammered in the marketplace, they just never learn. The best thing that
could happen to GM is for them to get bought out by Honda, Toyota or
<gasp> Hyundai. Clean out the upper management, tell the UAW to take a
hike, let the people who actually care about cars, quality and customers
run the place and you might actually end up with a decent company.

']['unez

Best car ever !!!!!!!! had a 1958 Nash Metropolitan that I put 230,000
miles on ...... Only problem I had in 230K was I had to replace the
generator and of course the brakes and tires..... After all that it dies
with the original engine and original exhaust ... Oh for thye good ole' days
when They knew how to make REAL cars although I do have a 2005 XG350L that
is 3 years old and just turned 15K and hasnt been back to the dealer for
anything other than oil changes.

']['unez
"Jack Cassidy" <Jacapat2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:461db19b$0$9876$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <esp@snet.net> wrote in message
> newsCYRh.12917$JZ3.4947@newssvr13.news.prodigy.n et...
>>
>> "Deck" <decan9@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:95f211ba66fec4fb48e83c6718135c91@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
>>>I have an 03 Elantra and an 06 Sonata LX. Like both cars. The Elantra for
>>> around town. The Sonata would be good on the highway if it didn't have
>>> those 17 inch HARD tires..Probably buy another Mercury Grand Marquis for
>>> the road. I got better mileage on my last Merc than I'm getting on this
>>> Sonara..and it rode a whale of a lot better!!
>>
>> You are right that the Grand M rides a WHALE of a lot better. Felt like
>> it was a huge whale wallowing around the sea.
>>
>> I rented a Grand Marquis back in December for four days. I drove out of
>> Las Vegas toward Death Valley and the road curved a bit as it climbed
>> over the mountain. It was real work to keep it between the yellow lines.
>> I was wishing I was back in my Sonata so I could be going 10 mph faster
>> and have better control. Nice car for when you take the grandparents out
>> for dinner, but not what I want under me under serious driving
>> conditions. To each his own.
>
> All Mercury Grand Marquis' are not created equal. My wife's 2000 Grand
> Marquis came with a handling package that included air ride suspension,
> 373 Rear, dual exhausts, speed rated tires and traction assist. It is a
> BIG, fast, comfortable, reasonably handling car.
> At 107,000 miles it will soon need spark plugs. It has been extremely
> dependable and will probably be replaced with something similar when it
> gets to around 200,000, as was her last 1992 Crown Victoria. My pickup
> truck is a 1999 F250 4X4 V-10 Ford Super Duty which will most likely
> outlast me. It has close to 100,000 miles on it now, about 65,000 of those
> towing a 30' travel trailer. The only reason I bought a Hyundai was gas
> mileage (30 as opposed to 10 with the pickup) The Hyundai (2005 Accord)
> Has been very reliable so far, and I drive it 80 miles a day back and
> forth to work. The only complaint I have is one I have heard from almost
> half of the Hyundai owners I know, Poor dealerships. I wanted the cheapest
> car I could buy that had a big warrantee, Then the dealer tried to bury us
> with things that I did not want or need. Be careful what you sigh, make
> sure all the spaces are filled in and re-check all the paperwork when you
> get home. I have been buying new Fords since 1977 and NEVER had a Ford
> dealer try to pull what the Hyundai dealer did.
> The Hyundai rides like a buckboard, and it is more like wearing it than
> driving it, But it is very reliable and cheap to operate.
>
> Jack Cassidy
>
>