Scott Dorsey wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives
>>> you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE.
>> so what? decent gasoline has sufficient octane properties too.
>
> No, sadly it doesn't.

yes it does. but oilcos want to be able to sell the crap mixed in with
the good stuff, so they need to mix in octane modifiers.


> Pure gasoline (well, as pure as gasoline gets, which
> isn't very pure) is much too prone to predetonation to use in a modern
> engine.

it depends on the content. see above.

>
> For high performance reciprocating aircraft engines back in WWII, the
> required octane rating was so high that even lead didn't do the job, and
> they wound up mixing gasoline with very, very light distillates (casing
> head). The stuff is a nightmare to work with, and evaporates much faster
> than normal gasoline.

ww2 aero engines are very different from modern auto engines. they had
very poor thermal control, poor combustion chamber design, poor mixture
control, etc. if design is bad, sure, you need to monkey with the fuel
content. but if the design is good and control is good, problem all but
disappears.


>
>>> So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a
>>> substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier
>>> to the environment and the people working with it than either.
>> the brazilians don't think so, and they have a lot more experience than
>> us. they have serious respiratory illness down there caused by ethanol
>> combustion products.
>
> Sure, and we have plenty of lead problems.
>
>> mtbe only became used because a certain govenor's wife was on the board
>> of a certain oilco whose refinery process produced large amounts of this
>> otherwise unwanted product. it was a stroke of oilco genius to label
>> toxic waste as "oxygenate" and get it mandated as an additive through
>> the boardroom/bedroom connection.
>
> Perhaps, but it works,

"works" relative to what? it's not the only oxygenate out there. and
it poisons the sub-surface water aquifers like nobody's business. and
is persistent.

> and lead turned out to have long-term toxicity issues.


lead salts are relatively stable and not very soluble.

 

"mjc13<REMOVETHIS> @verizon.net>" <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS> wrote in message
news:nWfpi.2782$b04.2699@trndny06...
>
> Most of the Canadian and South American oil is fuel oil. We get quite a
> bit of our gasoline from oil from the MidEast.
>
Do you have a link for that? All I have is for crude and total petroleum,
although the crude from Canada is still more than total petroleum from Saudi
Arabia.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...nt/import.html
If that link wraps, it is also http://tinyurl.com/7ldt
It is amazing how little oil we get from the Middle East beyond Saudi
Arabia.

Mike

 

"mjc13<REMOVETHIS> @verizon.net>" <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS> wrote in message
news:nWfpi.2782$b04.2699@trndny06...
>
> Most of the Canadian and South American oil is fuel oil. We get quite a
> bit of our gasoline from oil from the MidEast.
>
Do you have a link for that? All I have is for crude and total petroleum,
although the crude from Canada is still more than total petroleum from Saudi
Arabia.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...nt/import.html
If that link wraps, it is also http://tinyurl.com/7ldt
It is amazing how little oil we get from the Middle East beyond Saudi
Arabia.

Mike

 

"mjc13<REMOVETHIS> @verizon.net>" <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS> wrote in message
news:nWfpi.2782$b04.2699@trndny06...
>
> Most of the Canadian and South American oil is fuel oil. We get quite a
> bit of our gasoline from oil from the MidEast.
>
Do you have a link for that? All I have is for crude and total petroleum,
although the crude from Canada is still more than total petroleum from Saudi
Arabia.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...nt/import.html
If that link wraps, it is also http://tinyurl.com/7ldt
It is amazing how little oil we get from the Middle East beyond Saudi
Arabia.

Mike

 

Michael Pardee <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>"mjc13<REMOVETHIS> @verizon.net>" <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS> wrote in message
>news:nWfpi.2782$b04.2699@trndny06...
>>
>> Most of the Canadian and South American oil is fuel oil. We get quite a
>> bit of our gasoline from oil from the MidEast.
>>
>Do you have a link for that? All I have is for crude and total petroleum,

Look for a breakdown between "sweet light crude" and heavy crude oils.

>although the crude from Canada is still more than total petroleum from Saudi
>Arabia.

We still get crude oil from Pennsylvania... but not a whole lot of it, and
it is very, very heavy. Still useful for making lubricating products and
some kinds of plastics, but it would take way too much cracking to be useful
as fuel.

>It is amazing how little oil we get from the Middle East beyond Saudi
>Arabia.

This is mostly due to political concerns rather than technical ones. But
everybody likes the mideast oil because it is light and low sulfur so it
requires little processing to make fuels.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

Michael Pardee <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>"mjc13<REMOVETHIS> @verizon.net>" <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS> wrote in message
>news:nWfpi.2782$b04.2699@trndny06...
>>
>> Most of the Canadian and South American oil is fuel oil. We get quite a
>> bit of our gasoline from oil from the MidEast.
>>
>Do you have a link for that? All I have is for crude and total petroleum,

Look for a breakdown between "sweet light crude" and heavy crude oils.

>although the crude from Canada is still more than total petroleum from Saudi
>Arabia.

We still get crude oil from Pennsylvania... but not a whole lot of it, and
it is very, very heavy. Still useful for making lubricating products and
some kinds of plastics, but it would take way too much cracking to be useful
as fuel.

>It is amazing how little oil we get from the Middle East beyond Saudi
>Arabia.

This is mostly due to political concerns rather than technical ones. But
everybody likes the mideast oil because it is light and low sulfur so it
requires little processing to make fuels.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

Michael Pardee <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>"mjc13<REMOVETHIS> @verizon.net>" <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS> wrote in message
>news:nWfpi.2782$b04.2699@trndny06...
>>
>> Most of the Canadian and South American oil is fuel oil. We get quite a
>> bit of our gasoline from oil from the MidEast.
>>
>Do you have a link for that? All I have is for crude and total petroleum,

Look for a breakdown between "sweet light crude" and heavy crude oils.

>although the crude from Canada is still more than total petroleum from Saudi
>Arabia.

We still get crude oil from Pennsylvania... but not a whole lot of it, and
it is very, very heavy. Still useful for making lubricating products and
some kinds of plastics, but it would take way too much cracking to be useful
as fuel.

>It is amazing how little oil we get from the Middle East beyond Saudi
>Arabia.

This is mostly due to political concerns rather than technical ones. But
everybody likes the mideast oil because it is light and low sulfur so it
requires little processing to make fuels.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "mjc13<REMOVETHIS> @verizon.net>" <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS> wrote in message
> news:nWfpi.2782$b04.2699@trndny06...
>> Most of the Canadian and South American oil is fuel oil. We get quite a
>> bit of our gasoline from oil from the MidEast.
>>
> Do you have a link for that? All I have is for crude and total petroleum,
> although the crude from Canada is still more than total petroleum from Saudi
> Arabia.
> http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...nt/import.html
> If that link wraps, it is also http://tinyurl.com/7ldt

If you want to prevent a link from wrapping, just put angle braces
around it:

<http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html>

Jeff

> It is amazing how little oil we get from the Middle East beyond Saudi
> Arabia.
>
> Mike
>
>
>

 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "mjc13<REMOVETHIS> @verizon.net>" <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS> wrote in message
> news:nWfpi.2782$b04.2699@trndny06...
>> Most of the Canadian and South American oil is fuel oil. We get quite a
>> bit of our gasoline from oil from the MidEast.
>>
> Do you have a link for that? All I have is for crude and total petroleum,
> although the crude from Canada is still more than total petroleum from Saudi
> Arabia.
> http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...nt/import.html
> If that link wraps, it is also http://tinyurl.com/7ldt

If you want to prevent a link from wrapping, just put angle braces
around it:

<http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html>

Jeff

> It is amazing how little oil we get from the Middle East beyond Saudi
> Arabia.
>
> Mike
>
>
>

 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "mjc13<REMOVETHIS> @verizon.net>" <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS> wrote in message
> news:nWfpi.2782$b04.2699@trndny06...
>> Most of the Canadian and South American oil is fuel oil. We get quite a
>> bit of our gasoline from oil from the MidEast.
>>
> Do you have a link for that? All I have is for crude and total petroleum,
> although the crude from Canada is still more than total petroleum from Saudi
> Arabia.
> http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...nt/import.html
> If that link wraps, it is also http://tinyurl.com/7ldt

If you want to prevent a link from wrapping, just put angle braces
around it:

<http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html>

Jeff

> It is amazing how little oil we get from the Middle East beyond Saudi
> Arabia.
>
> Mike
>
>
>

 

"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Pj5ui.5839$vK2.5564@trnddc03...
>
> If you want to prevent a link from wrapping, just put angle braces around
> it:
>
> <http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html>
>
> Jeff
>

I didn't know that! Thanks.

 

"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Pj5ui.5839$vK2.5564@trnddc03...
>
> If you want to prevent a link from wrapping, just put angle braces around
> it:
>
> <http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html>
>
> Jeff
>

I didn't know that! Thanks.

 

"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Pj5ui.5839$vK2.5564@trnddc03...
>
> If you want to prevent a link from wrapping, just put angle braces around
> it:
>
> <http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html>
>
> Jeff
>

I didn't know that! Thanks.