jim beam

L Alpert wrote:
> "jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:r-GdnQTdRoNw2tPXnZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>> L Alpert wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>> newsuCdnTFPnpCHndPXnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>>> In article <r53r45991qq167mu4h1nuqom4uvmatrdij@4ax.com>,
>>>>> Benjamin Bootstrap <benjamin.bootstrap@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The 6 is for people who don't understand, and/or who just want
>>>>>>> bragging rights. Nothing more.
>>>>>> Hmmm... really? I test drove a 4-cylinder 2008 Honda Accord and
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> the EX-V6, and I can sense a big difference in terms of
>>>>>> acceleration,
>>>>>> going up the hills, and the 4-cylinder feels like I'm dragging
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> along.
>>>>> You probably just didn't want to rev the four banger. Hondas
>>>>> have plenty of power, but people who are used to big engines
>>>>> AREN'T used to revving the Honda to where the power is.
>>>>>
>>>>> And sure there's a difference in power--but does the four banger
>>>>> NOT perform perfectly well? There's enough, and then there's
>>>>> overkill.
>>>> i agree with elmo on this. because my friends know me as "one of
>>>> those guys that knows about cars", i've test-driven countless cars
>>>> with them countless times, and lack of willingness to rev the
>>>> engine is pretty much universal. even among many so-called
>>>> "ricer" kids. "but it's making a loud noise", etc.
>>>>
>>>> bottom line: honda 4's have /plenty/ of power, but limited low end
>>>> grunt. the 6 has that grunt and it keeps the freds happy, but the
>>>> 4 is where the fun is if you know how to drive properly.
>>> If you know how to drive properly, the 6 can be fun as well...I
>>> have no problems with pushing mechanical devices that are properly
>>> engineered to their limits.
>> how do you know what is "properly engineered"?
>
> Reputation, as far as Honda goes. With the equipment I work with, it
> has to do with reviewing the equipment design specifications and
> auditing their quality systems.
>

ok, my point is that with automotive stuff, unless someone is privy to
info that the car companies don't publish, or are prepared to do do
their own dissection and testing, they don't really know, they're just
projecting what they hope to be true - it's not a statement of fact.

L Alpert

"jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:CNKdnU-jxpRP9tPXnZ2dnUVZ_vOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>L Alpert wrote:
>> "jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>> news:r-GdnQTdRoNw2tPXnZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>> "jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>>> newsuCdnTFPnpCHndPXnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>>>> In article <r53r45991qq167mu4h1nuqom4uvmatrdij@4ax.com>,
>>>>>> Benjamin Bootstrap <benjamin.bootstrap@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The 6 is for people who don't understand, and/or who just
>>>>>>>> want bragging rights. Nothing more.
>>>>>>> Hmmm... really? I test drove a 4-cylinder 2008 Honda Accord
>>>>>>> and then
>>>>>>> the EX-V6, and I can sense a big difference in terms of
>>>>>>> acceleration,
>>>>>>> going up the hills, and the 4-cylinder feels like I'm dragging
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> along.
>>>>>> You probably just didn't want to rev the four banger. Hondas
>>>>>> have plenty of power, but people who are used to big engines
>>>>>> AREN'T used to revving the Honda to where the power is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And sure there's a difference in power--but does the four
>>>>>> banger NOT perform perfectly well? There's enough, and then
>>>>>> there's overkill.
>>>>> i agree with elmo on this. because my friends know me as "one
>>>>> of those guys that knows about cars", i've test-driven countless
>>>>> cars with them countless times, and lack of willingness to rev
>>>>> the engine is pretty much universal. even among many so-called
>>>>> "ricer" kids. "but it's making a loud noise", etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> bottom line: honda 4's have /plenty/ of power, but limited low
>>>>> end grunt. the 6 has that grunt and it keeps the freds happy,
>>>>> but the 4 is where the fun is if you know how to drive properly.
>>>> If you know how to drive properly, the 6 can be fun as well...I
>>>> have no problems with pushing mechanical devices that are
>>>> properly engineered to their limits.
>>> how do you know what is "properly engineered"?
>>
>> Reputation, as far as Honda goes. With the equipment I work with,
>> it has to do with reviewing the equipment design specifications and
>> auditing their quality systems.
>
> ok, my point is that with automotive stuff, unless someone is privy
> to info that the car companies don't publish, or are prepared to do
> do their own dissection and testing, they don't really know, they're
> just projecting what they hope to be true - it's not a statement of
> fact.

They (Honda) have been successful building automobiles for many years,
and I have owned more than a few of them. Are their designs perfect?
No, probably not, considering I have 2 vehicles affected by the
transmission recall, but they made good on their design issue both by
fixing it, and then by extending the warranty. I doubt if any auto
maker has a perfect design, but I'm sure most of us are not here in
this group because we believe Honda designs and builds inferior
products, and at some point that in itself becomes the statement of
fact.
The difference with the equipment I use professionally is that I will
either design it myself, or thoroughly review the vendors design
specification and BOM before I purchase it.

JRStern

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:12:42 -0400, Benjamin Bootstrap
<benjamin.bootstrap@verizon.net> wrote:

>
>Dear Honda experts:
>
>I read in here that someone says Honda makes the best 4-cylinder and
>stick with that (and manual.) So if I wanted a V6 I should not get a
>Honda because Honda is not an expert building V6s?

The six engine is fine, and let's asssume the tranny is fine, too,
it's just that it seems overkill.

Once in a blue moon I wish my four was a six - when I try to pull into
the fast lane, going up a hill, with a couple of passengers, and some
moron is closing from behind a lot faster than I thought he was going.
Then even the four properly reved into the vtech cam is just not
enough.

Though if they could peel 500 pounds off the frames of these things,
the four would be even more ideal.

J.

ps - also when the tranny gets sticky and doesn't downshift like it
should, you wonder if a bigger engine wouldn't be in order.

Elmo P. Shagnasty

In article <ouCdnTFPnpCHndPXnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> the 6 has that grunt and it keeps the freds happy, but the 4 is
> where the fun is if you know how to drive properly.

and the VTEC growl isn't a warning signal of anything other than "fun's
a comin'".

Elmo P. Shagnasty

In article <G4s3m.2242$Wj7.1892@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com>,
"L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> wrote:

> >> If you know how to drive properly, the 6 can be fun as well...I
> >> have no problems with pushing mechanical devices that are properly
> >> engineered to their limits.
> >
> > how do you know what is "properly engineered"?
>
> Reputation, as far as Honda goes.

Yeah. Like the transmissions they put on their 6 cylinder engines, all
the way from the 1998 model year through the 2004 model year.

Those were a beancounter's dream, and a reputation-killer. Honda spent
SIX YEARS with TWO ITERATIONS of that transmission, BOTH of them junk,
foisting that crap onto the world, riding on their previously
hard-earned reputation.

SIX YEARS. I can only imagine that some executive that had experience
on the Ford Pinto team was busy telling them, "don't worry that each
dealership is replacing four to six of these things a week--we've done
the math, and it's cheaper for us that way, so let's keep making the
junk and pushing it out the door".

In my mind, Honda is STILL earning its reputation back. Not that I
won't buy one, but my eyes are WIDE open.

Elmo P. Shagnasty

In article <JIu3m.6803$iz2.421@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>,
"L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> wrote:

> but I'm sure most of us are not here in
> this group because we believe Honda designs and builds inferior
> products,

I am 100% positive that Honda deliberately built not one but TWO
versions of an inferior transmission, and deliberately pushed it out to
its customers who had other expectations based on Honda's reputation.

Honda has shown that it is not against trashing its reputation to make
money--or at the very least, Honda has shown that senior management is
not on the stick with regard to protecting its reputation.

In short: as far as I'm concerned, while I don't put Honda into the
GM/Ford category, they're not looking out for me one itsy bitsy bit.
They've shown that they are capable of not caring what I think of them
six months after I've bought the car.

They are now in a position of earning that back--and it's FAR harder to
earn a reputation than to lose one.

I sincerely hope someone at Honda lost big during those years they let
the beancounters run the show, and ignored the engineers wholesale.

L Alpert

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-302587.16214505072009@news.eternal-september.org...
> In article <G4s3m.2242$Wj7.1892@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com>,
> "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >> If you know how to drive properly, the 6 can be fun as well...I
>> >> have no problems with pushing mechanical devices that are
>> >> properly
>> >> engineered to their limits.
>> >
>> > how do you know what is "properly engineered"?
>>
>> Reputation, as far as Honda goes.
>
> Yeah. Like the transmissions they put on their 6 cylinder engines,
> all
> the way from the 1998 model year through the 2004 model year.

Of which I have 2 vehicles that have both been repaired and had the
warranty extended as well.

>
> Those were a beancounter's dream, and a reputation-killer. Honda
> spent
> SIX YEARS with TWO ITERATIONS of that transmission, BOTH of them
> junk,
> foisting that crap onto the world, riding on their previously
> hard-earned reputation.

Bean counters run businesses. It's unfortunate, but they (businesses)
don't run on conscience. Just think Pinto.....

>
> SIX YEARS. I can only imagine that some executive that had
> experience
> on the Ford Pinto team was busy telling them, "don't worry that each
> dealership is replacing four to six of these things a week--we've
> done
> the math, and it's cheaper for us that way, so let's keep making the
> junk and pushing it out the door".
>
> In my mind, Honda is STILL earning its reputation back. Not that I
> won't buy one, but my eyes are WIDE open.

Elmo P. Shagnasty

In article <YS84m.3730$Jb1.590@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com>,
"L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> wrote:

> Bean counters run businesses. It's unfortunate, but they (businesses)
> don't run on conscience. Just think Pinto.....

Prior to the mid-90s, Honda understood the balance of beancounting and
engineering.

It's when they let the beancounters tell the engineers to " off,
build what we tell you for the money we tell you" that things went to
hell. In many very OBVIOUS and bad ways.

jim beam

L Alpert wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:elmop-302587.16214505072009@news.eternal-september.org...
>> In article <G4s3m.2242$Wj7.1892@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com>,
>> "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> If you know how to drive properly, the 6 can be fun as well...I
>>>>> have no problems with pushing mechanical devices that are
>>>>> properly
>>>>> engineered to their limits.
>>>> how do you know what is "properly engineered"?
>>> Reputation, as far as Honda goes.
>> Yeah. Like the transmissions they put on their 6 cylinder engines,
>> all
>> the way from the 1998 model year through the 2004 model year.
>
> Of which I have 2 vehicles that have both been repaired and had the
> warranty extended as well.
>
>> Those were a beancounter's dream, and a reputation-killer. Honda
>> spent
>> SIX YEARS with TWO ITERATIONS of that transmission, BOTH of them
>> junk,
>> foisting that crap onto the world, riding on their previously
>> hard-earned reputation.
>
> Bean counters run businesses. It's unfortunate, but they (businesses)
> don't run on conscience. Just think Pinto.....

how those same pinto ******** got away with the same kind of financial
sociopathy that killed thousands of americans with the exploder fiasco
is beyond me. those vehicles should never have rolled just because of a
flat tire. and they shouldn't have had the cabins crush when they did.
but frod knew they would and calculated that potential payouts were
trivial compared to profits. thus, just like they did with the pinto,
they decided to continue rather than redesign. americans died for frod
profits. execs should be in jail for that. period.


>
>> SIX YEARS. I can only imagine that some executive that had
>> experience
>> on the Ford Pinto team was busy telling them, "don't worry that each
>> dealership is replacing four to six of these things a week--we've
>> done
>> the math, and it's cheaper for us that way, so let's keep making the
>> junk and pushing it out the door".
>>
>> In my mind, Honda is STILL earning its reputation back. Not that I
>> won't buy one, but my eyes are WIDE open.
>
>

L Alpert

"jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:F4OdnS4g9_r-2MzXnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>L Alpert wrote:
>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
>> news:elmop-302587.16214505072009@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> In article <G4s3m.2242$Wj7.1892@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com>,
>>> "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> If you know how to drive properly, the 6 can be fun as well...I
>>>>>> have no problems with pushing mechanical devices that are
>>>>>> properly
>>>>>> engineered to their limits.
>>>>> how do you know what is "properly engineered"?
>>>> Reputation, as far as Honda goes.
>>> Yeah. Like the transmissions they put on their 6 cylinder
>>> engines, all
>>> the way from the 1998 model year through the 2004 model year.
>>
>> Of which I have 2 vehicles that have both been repaired and had the
>> warranty extended as well.
>>
>>> Those were a beancounter's dream, and a reputation-killer. Honda
>>> spent
>>> SIX YEARS with TWO ITERATIONS of that transmission, BOTH of them
>>> junk,
>>> foisting that crap onto the world, riding on their previously
>>> hard-earned reputation.
>>
>> Bean counters run businesses. It's unfortunate, but they
>> (businesses) don't run on conscience. Just think Pinto.....
>
> how those same pinto ******** got away with the same kind of
> financial sociopathy that killed thousands of americans with the
> exploder fiasco is beyond me. those vehicles should never have
> rolled just because of a flat tire. and they shouldn't have had the
> cabins crush when they did. but frod knew they would and calculated
> that potential payouts were trivial compared to profits. thus, just
> like they did with the pinto, they decided to continue rather than
> redesign. americans died for frod profits. execs should be in jail
> for that. period.
>

We are in perfect agreement on this.

>
>>
>>> SIX YEARS. I can only imagine that some executive that had
>>> experience
>>> on the Ford Pinto team was busy telling them, "don't worry that
>>> each
>>> dealership is replacing four to six of these things a week--we've
>>> done
>>> the math, and it's cheaper for us that way, so let's keep making
>>> the
>>> junk and pushing it out the door".
>>>
>>> In my mind, Honda is STILL earning its reputation back. Not that
>>> I
>>> won't buy one, but my eyes are WIDE open.
>>

Benjamin Bootstrap

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 14:25:18 -0700, "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com>
wrote:

>
>"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
>news:elmop-302587.16214505072009@news.eternal-september.org...
>> In article <G4s3m.2242$Wj7.1892@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com>,
>> "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> >> If you know how to drive properly, the 6 can be fun as well...I
>>> >> have no problems with pushing mechanical devices that are
>>> >> properly
>>> >> engineered to their limits.
>>> >
>>> > how do you know what is "properly engineered"?
>>>
>>> Reputation, as far as Honda goes.
>>
>> Yeah. Like the transmissions they put on their 6 cylinder engines,
>> all
>> the way from the 1998 model year through the 2004 model year.
>
>Of which I have 2 vehicles that have both been repaired and had the
>warranty extended as well.
>
>>
>> Those were a beancounter's dream, and a reputation-killer. Honda
>> spent
>> SIX YEARS with TWO ITERATIONS of that transmission, BOTH of them
>> junk,
>> foisting that crap onto the world, riding on their previously
>> hard-earned reputation.
>
>Bean counters run businesses. It's unfortunate, but they (businesses)
>don't run on conscience. Just think Pinto.....
>
>>

Unfortunately as much as Elmo's post seems like conspiracy theory, but
it has some truths to it. It's kind of like Rebates - the companies
are banking that not everybody will remember to return the rebates, or
they make mistakes by sending in the wrong this or writing the wrong
information on rebates so they can deny it.

I've actually read a study on this in a car magazine a few years ago.
Not everybody gets a recall notice because of change of address,
change of ownership, etc. Therefore, the owners of these
Hondas/Acuras will go to their local shop to fix the transmissions
because it's cheaper than the dealership. Beancounter wins.

Benjamin Bootstrap

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:29:22 -0700, jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>L Alpert wrote:
>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
>> news:elmop-302587.16214505072009@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> In article <G4s3m.2242$Wj7.1892@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com>,
>>> "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> If you know how to drive properly, the 6 can be fun as well...I
>>>>>> have no problems with pushing mechanical devices that are
>>>>>> properly
>>>>>> engineered to their limits.
>>>>> how do you know what is "properly engineered"?
>>>> Reputation, as far as Honda goes.
>>> Yeah. Like the transmissions they put on their 6 cylinder engines,
>>> all
>>> the way from the 1998 model year through the 2004 model year.
>>
>> Of which I have 2 vehicles that have both been repaired and had the
>> warranty extended as well.
>>
>>> Those were a beancounter's dream, and a reputation-killer. Honda
>>> spent
>>> SIX YEARS with TWO ITERATIONS of that transmission, BOTH of them
>>> junk,
>>> foisting that crap onto the world, riding on their previously
>>> hard-earned reputation.
>>
>> Bean counters run businesses. It's unfortunate, but they (businesses)
>> don't run on conscience. Just think Pinto.....
>
>how those same pinto ******** got away with the same kind of financial
>sociopathy that killed thousands of americans with the exploder fiasco
>is beyond me. those vehicles should never have rolled just because of a
>flat tire. and they shouldn't have had the cabins crush when they did.
> but frod knew they would and calculated that potential payouts were
>trivial compared to profits. thus, just like they did with the pinto,
>they decided to continue rather than redesign. americans died for frod
>profits. execs should be in jail for that. period.
>

Prez Obama's in charge, and now he owns the American car companies. US
Government, who answers to nobody, now are in the business of
producing cars.... can you say PINTO II!