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Re: '93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?
Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns99E6C851C561Btegger@207.14.116.130: > Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in > news:Xns99E6BFE30BAC5jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86: > >> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in >> news:Xns99E69B75C2AEFtegger@207.14.116.130: >> >>> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in >>> news:Xns99E6730552E23jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84: >>> >>>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in >>>> news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130: >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Like jim says, it's possible. Apparently the igniter controls its >>>>> own dwell by sensing back EMF as the coil charges up. >>>> >>>> From the pictures of an igniter you posted awhile back,the igniter >>>> has a control IC that measures the emitter current >>> >>> >>> >>> "Emitter current"... What's the difference between that and "back >>> EMF"? >> >> "back EMF" is the current generated when the coil is -disconnected- >> from the charging current,or as commonly called,the "flyback current". >> The IC measures the CHARGING current,thru a resistor from emitter to >> ground(while the transistor is ON). >> The "back EMF" is the high voltage discharge generated for the spark >> plugs when the coil's magnetic field collapses when the charge current >> is switched off.Part of it's path is thru the snub >> diode/condenser,around the switching transistor,to ground. >> >> What is called "dwell" is the time the coil is being charged,when the >> points or transistor is "ON" and 12V is charging the coil.The longer >> the dwell,the greater the magnetic field built up,and the higher the >> back EMF generated when the charge current is disconnected(points open >> or transistor switches OFF). > > > > OK.... > > Then it seems like I need to change my reference to "back EMF" to read > "emitter current" on the relevant igniter page. > > You have not yet defined "emitter current". Can you? > > > The "emitter" is one element of the switching transistor. (on a schematic representation,the transistor element with an arrow designates the emitter.direction of the arrow designates whether the transistor is a NPN or PNP type transistor) You have the base-emitter(B-E) current[from the IC] that controls the much larger collector-emitter(C-E) current[coil charging current]. The control IC measures the total emitter current,decides when to switch the transistor off when it reaches specified levels,determined by the value of the emitter resistor. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: '93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?
"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
news:13ji3l8lb9m4479@corp.supernews.com: > "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote > Tegger wrote >>> So then maybe the OP's igniter simply suffered a random >>> failure. >>> >>> I've got 295,300 miles and seventeen years on my original >>> igniter. >>> Borrowed time? >>> >>> >> >> I see no reason for an igniter to fail simply from age or >> mileage. >> I suspect poor heatsinking(that white compound between the >> ceramic >> substrate and the aluminum of the distributor) or >> coil/wire arcing >> transients.Grime buildup can also interfere with heat >> transfer or allow for >> leakage currents to flow across the circuit >> improperly.Moisture would not >> be good,either. > > Old wires or old spark plugs, or non-OEM of same, seem to me > to candidates for contributing to failure of the igniter > too. That's what I meant by "coil/wire arcing transients";plug wires breaking down or a coil insulation breakdown. I don't think old spark plugs would cause an igniter to fail,unless they had a cracked insulator or carbon tracks on the insulator from outside contamination like dirt/grease. >I base this on my experience with my 91 Civic's igniter > (in the years when I was likely using non-OEM wires and/or > plugs, or just not caring carefully for the OEM ones) vs. > Tegger's set routine of replacing rotor, cap, and wires > every five years. > > > -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: '93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?
"Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message news:Xns99E69B75C2AEFtegger@207.14.116.130... > Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in > news:Xns99E6730552E23jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84: > > > Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in > > news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130: > > > > > >> > >> Like jim says, it's possible. Apparently the igniter controls its own > >> dwell by sensing back EMF as the coil charges up. > > > > From the pictures of an igniter you posted awhile back,the igniter has > > a control IC that measures the emitter current > > > So then maybe the OP's igniter simply suffered a random failure. > > I've got 295,300 miles and seventeen years on my original igniter. > Borrowed time? Tegger, i took my igniter apart to see what was inside. (it is labeled OKI.) i popped the plastic panel off the back there was sticky (but not strong) transparent gel around the electronics. I could see smallish silver wires welded to each outer ternminal and then connected to contact points/pads on the circuit board.. while removing the gel *carefully* with Q-tip, one of the silver wires easily came away from it's pad/tower. then one of the pads/towers (that the wires connected to) just lifted off the circuit board ( no force ) this was not good as i could not budge any of the remaining contact pads by jamming with a Q-tip. when i inspected the pad and circuit board with a magnifyng glass there appeaared to be corrosion or oxidation where the loose pads were mounted so i tested switching electronics by using sharp probes and making the test contacts directly onto circuit board pads or pad mount points... to my surprise the ignitor ****works and switches **** So in my case it seems to be a mechanical failure with the circuit connections... inside the ignitor rob |
Re: '93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?
"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in
news:13jidmm8gfqcd93@corp.supernews.com: > > "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message > news:Xns99E69B75C2AEFtegger@207.14.116.130... >> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in >> news:Xns99E6730552E23jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84: >> >> > Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in >> > news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130: >> > >> > >> >> >> >> Like jim says, it's possible. Apparently the igniter > controls its own >> >> dwell by sensing back EMF as the coil charges up. >> > >> > From the pictures of an igniter you posted awhile back,the > igniter has >> > a control IC that measures the emitter current >> >> >> So then maybe the OP's igniter simply suffered a random > failure. >> >> I've got 295,300 miles and seventeen years on my original > igniter. >> Borrowed time? > > Tegger, > i took my igniter apart to see what was inside. (it is labeled > OKI.) > > i popped the plastic panel off the back there was sticky (but > not strong) transparent gel around the electronics. I could see > smallish silver wires welded to each outer ternminal and then > connected to contact points/pads on the circuit board.. while > removing the gel *carefully* with Q-tip, one of the silver wires > easily came away from it's pad/tower. then one of the > pads/towers (that the wires connected to) just lifted off the > circuit board ( no force ) this was not good as i could not > budge any of the remaining contact pads by jamming with a Q-tip. > when i inspected the pad and circuit board with a magnifyng glass > there appeaared to be corrosion or oxidation where the loose pads > were mounted > > so i tested switching electronics by using sharp probes and > making the test contacts directly onto circuit board pads or pad > mount points... to my surprise the ignitor ****works and > switches **** > > So in my case it seems to be a mechanical failure with the > circuit connections... inside the ignitor > > rob > > > Tegger has/had a picture of an igniter on his website,and that one had a ceramic substrate for a circuit board.It has the resistors printed directly on the ceramic,"thick-film" resistors.It makes a very durable,reliable component. Was yours an epoxy-glass (or worse,phenolic) PCB with soldered-on (discrete)resistors? If so,I wonder if it were a non-OEM igniter? Maybe you could post a pix or 2 somewhere? -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: '93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
news:Xns99E752D8A9127jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.85: > > Tegger has/had a picture of an igniter on his website, Still do, as a link to Grahame Wood's page in the UK: http://www.gcw.org.uk/rover/igniter.htm. > and that one had > a ceramic substrate for a circuit board.It has the resistors printed > directly on the ceramic,"thick-film" resistors.It makes a very > durable,reliable component. > > Was yours an epoxy-glass (or worse,phenolic) PCB with soldered-on > (discrete)resistors? > If so,I wonder if it were a non-OEM igniter? > Maybe you could post a pix or 2 somewhere? > > Send 'em to me. I'll put them up. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
news:Xns99E6EF43834AFjyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84: >> >> You have not yet defined "emitter current". Can you? >> >> >> > > The "emitter" is one element of the switching transistor. > (on a schematic representation,the transistor element with an arrow > designates the emitter.direction of the arrow designates whether the > transistor is a NPN or PNP type transistor) > > You have the base-emitter(B-E) current[from the IC] that controls the > much larger collector-emitter(C-E) current[coil charging current]. The > control IC measures the total emitter current,decides when to switch > the transistor off when it reaches specified levels,determined by the > value of the emitter resistor. > Found a schematic online. This is a little over my head, but I'm trying to grasp it anyway. As I understand it, the IC drops the base current at the correct time, causing flow to stop between emitter and collector. This is the action of switching the transistor off, forcing the field collapse that creates the HT current in the coil. According to some pages I'm finding, the current-limiting resistor changes its value as *voltage* goes up, which is how the IC knows what's happening. http://www.williamson-labs.com/480_xtor.htm But I'm not following how *voltage* goes up here. I'm not understanding the connection between *current* and *voltage*. I thought the two were independent of each other. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?
"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in news:13jidmm8gfqcd93
@corp.supernews.com: > > Tegger, > i took my igniter apart to see what was inside. (it is labeled > OKI.) > > i popped the plastic panel off the back there was sticky (but > not strong) transparent gel around the electronics. I could see > smallish silver wires welded to each outer ternminal and then > connected to contact points/pads on the circuit board.. while > removing the gel *carefully* with Q-tip, one of the silver wires > easily came away from it's pad/tower. then one of the > pads/towers (that the wires connected to) just lifted off the > circuit board ( no force ) this was not good as i could not > budge any of the remaining contact pads by jamming with a Q-tip. > when i inspected the pad and circuit board with a magnifyng glass > there appeaared to be corrosion or oxidation where the loose pads > were mounted > > so i tested switching electronics by using sharp probes and > making the test contacts directly onto circuit board pads or pad > mount points... to my surprise the ignitor ****works and > switches **** > > So in my case it seems to be a mechanical failure with the > circuit connections... inside the ignitor > > rob > > > Very interesting. I'd love to see pictures, if you can get them. Especially of the wire having come loose from its pad. Grahame Wood has similar pics on his Web site, here: http://www.gcw.org.uk/rover/igniter.htm -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?
"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in news:13ji3l8lb9m4479
@corp.supernews.com: > > Old wires or old spark plugs, or non-OEM of same, seem to me > to candidates for contributing to failure of the igniter > too. I base this on my experience with my 91 Civic's igniter > (in the years when I was likely using non-OEM wires and/or > plugs, or just not caring carefully for the OEM ones) vs. > Tegger's set routine of replacing rotor, cap, and wires > every five years. > > And they said I was nuts... :) -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?
"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
news:13ji3l8lb9m4479@corp.supernews.com: > "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote > Tegger wrote >>> So then maybe the OP's igniter simply suffered a random >>> failure. >>> >>> I've got 295,300 miles and seventeen years on my original >>> igniter. >>> Borrowed time? >>> >>> >> >> I see no reason for an igniter to fail simply from age or >> mileage. >> I suspect poor heatsinking(that white compound between the >> ceramic >> substrate and the aluminum of the distributor) or >> coil/wire arcing >> transients.Grime buildup can also interfere with heat >> transfer or allow for >> leakage currents to flow across the circuit >> improperly.Moisture would not >> be good,either. > > Old wires or old spark plugs, or non-OEM of same, seem to me > to candidates for contributing to failure of the igniter > too. I base this on my experience with my 91 Civic's igniter > (in the years when I was likely using non-OEM wires and/or > plugs, or just not caring carefully for the OEM ones) vs. > Tegger's set routine of replacing rotor, cap, and wires > every five years. > > A very important additional point to be made is that coil/wire arcing and leakage to ground will result in a steady flow of tiny misfires, much too small to be felt by you, and possibly even the OBD-II system. These misfires are by far and away the #1 cause of catalytic converter failure. The constant trickle of unburnt fuel "sinters" the surface of the cat, reducing its surface area, and thus reducing its effectiveness. The OBD-II system makes a very big deal of monitoring closely for misfires for this very reason. Replacement of the entire HT side with new OEM every four or five years (plugs more often than that) will do much to help your horrendously expensive OEM cat last the lifetime of the vehicle. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?
robb wrote:
> "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message > news:Xns99E69B75C2AEFtegger@207.14.116.130... >> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in >> news:Xns99E6730552E23jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84: >> >>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in >>> news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130: >>> >>> >>>> Like jim says, it's possible. Apparently the igniter > controls its own >>>> dwell by sensing back EMF as the coil charges up. >>> From the pictures of an igniter you posted awhile back,the > igniter has >>> a control IC that measures the emitter current >> >> So then maybe the OP's igniter simply suffered a random > failure. >> I've got 295,300 miles and seventeen years on my original > igniter. >> Borrowed time? > > Tegger, > i took my igniter apart to see what was inside. (it is labeled > OKI.) > > i popped the plastic panel off the back there was sticky (but > not strong) transparent gel around the electronics. I could see > smallish silver wires welded to each outer ternminal and then > connected to contact points/pads on the circuit board.. while > removing the gel *carefully* with Q-tip, one of the silver wires > easily came away from it's pad/tower. then one of the > pads/towers (that the wires connected to) just lifted off the > circuit board ( no force ) this was not good as i could not > budge any of the remaining contact pads by jamming with a Q-tip. > when i inspected the pad and circuit board with a magnifyng glass > there appeaared to be corrosion or oxidation where the loose pads > were mounted > > so i tested switching electronics by using sharp probes and > making the test contacts directly onto circuit board pads or pad > mount points... to my surprise the ignitor ****works and > switches **** > > So in my case it seems to be a mechanical failure with the > circuit connections... inside the ignitor > > rob > > interesting! can't see how it would be possible to prevent this, or fix it, but interesting nevertheless! |
Re: '93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?
"Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message news:Xns99E758710C415tegger@207.14.116.130... > "robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in news:13jidmm8gfqcd93 > @corp.supernews.com: > > > > > > Tegger, > > i took my igniter apart to see what was inside. (it is labeled > > OKI.) > > So in my case it seems to be a mechanical failure with the > > circuit connections... inside the ignitor > > > > Very interesting. I'd love to see pictures, if you can get them. Especially > of the wire having come loose from its pad. > sure i can do that but i do not have a convenient web site to post pics, i will need to put them on one of the file share sites or post to some binary usenet group e.g. alt.binaries.??? all the terminal wires have broken off while finishing the cleaning and performing the test with the probes. those silver connector wires were quite fragile... one bend and a return bend and they popped right off the pads that the wires connected to on the actuall circuit board might be more interesting as they should be welded to the circuit board and not pop off at all. then the one pad that did dis-connect had corrosion on the weld where it was suppose to be conected to circuit board. looked like lead that is oxidized, dark gray and when you scratch it you get shiny silver i'll find a place to post the pics and post links here later, rob |
Re: '93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?
"Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
E wrote >> Old wires or old spark plugs, or non-OEM of same, seem to >> me >> to candidates for contributing to failure of the igniter >> too. I base this on my experience with my 91 Civic's >> igniter >> (in the years when I was likely using non-OEM wires >> and/or >> plugs, or just not caring carefully for the OEM ones) vs. >> Tegger's set routine of replacing rotor, cap, and wires >> every five years. >> >> > > > And they said I was nuts... :) Who said this? :-) I just checked my personal "Honda Maintenance" sheet with the OEM maintenance schedule and the ones others recommend, and what you do is not far from what is OEM recommended: 60k/4 years for wires, rotor and cap. I am going with yours for the immediate future, though. Or I will go to four years, since as of a few months ago, I am now living in an even hotter climate out West, and I think the heat takes more of a toll on the electronics and electrical (read: battery especially!) parts. Jim, understood about the transients. Bad wording on my part. I was trying to give the practical, "for-the-amateur," candidate solution to the transients. |
Re: '93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?
"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in
news:13jjd34bk6ol48d@corp.supernews.com: > > i'll find a place to post the pics and post links here later, > rob > > > Email them to me. I'll make them part of the igniter pages. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?
Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns99E757F9DB31Etegger@207.14.116.130: > Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in > news:Xns99E6EF43834AFjyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84: > > >>> >>> You have not yet defined "emitter current". Can you? >>> >>> >>> >> >> The "emitter" is one element of the switching transistor. >> (on a schematic representation,the transistor element with an arrow >> designates the emitter.direction of the arrow designates whether the >> transistor is a NPN or PNP type transistor) >> >> You have the base-emitter(B-E) current[from the IC] that controls the >> much larger collector-emitter(C-E) current[coil charging current]. >> The control IC measures the total emitter current,decides when to >> switch the transistor off when it reaches specified levels,determined >> by the value of the emitter resistor. >> > > > > Found a schematic online. This is a little over my head, but I'm > trying to grasp it anyway. > > As I understand it, the IC drops the base current at the correct time, > causing flow to stop between emitter and collector. This is the action > of switching the transistor off, forcing the field collapse that > creates the HT current in the coil. Right! > > According to some pages I'm finding, the current-limiting resistor > changes its value as *voltage* goes up, which is how the IC knows > what's happening. http://www.williamson-labs.com/480_xtor.htm No,for the igniter,the emitter resistor is a fixed value,and the -voltage developed across it- increases as current thru it increases(the coil current).That voltage is fed back to an IC input and when it reaches a set value,the IC shuts off the transistor.That's how the IC measures the coil current. > > But I'm not following how *voltage* goes up here. I'm not > understanding the connection between *current* and *voltage*. I > thought the two were independent of each other. here's the relationship; E=IxR I=E/R E=voltage I= current R= resistance See,when you hook 12V across a coil,the current thru the coil is a linear ramp up until the coil saturates. So,the IC measures that ramping current with the emitter resistor,and compares the voltage developed across the resistor to an internal voltage,when they equal,a switch turns off the external switcher transistor,removing the 12V from the coil. Then the magnetic field collapses and the HV spark is generated in the coil windings. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: '93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:EZednYV2r6brMqTanZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: > robb wrote: >> "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message >> news:Xns99E69B75C2AEFtegger@207.14.116.130... >>> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in >>> news:Xns99E6730552E23jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84: >>> >>>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in >>>> news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Like jim says, it's possible. Apparently the igniter >> controls its own >>>>> dwell by sensing back EMF as the coil charges up. >>>> From the pictures of an igniter you posted awhile back,the >> igniter has >>>> a control IC that measures the emitter current >>> >>> So then maybe the OP's igniter simply suffered a random >> failure. >>> I've got 295,300 miles and seventeen years on my original >> igniter. >>> Borrowed time? >> >> Tegger, >> i took my igniter apart to see what was inside. (it is labeled >> OKI.) >> >> i popped the plastic panel off the back there was sticky (but >> not strong) transparent gel around the electronics. I could see >> smallish silver wires welded to each outer ternminal and then >> connected to contact points/pads on the circuit board.. while >> removing the gel *carefully* with Q-tip, one of the silver wires >> easily came away from it's pad/tower. then one of the >> pads/towers (that the wires connected to) just lifted off the >> circuit board ( no force ) this was not good as i could not >> budge any of the remaining contact pads by jamming with a Q-tip. >> when i inspected the pad and circuit board with a magnifyng glass >> there appeaared to be corrosion or oxidation where the loose pads >> were mounted >> >> so i tested switching electronics by using sharp probes and >> making the test contacts directly onto circuit board pads or pad >> mount points... to my surprise the ignitor ****works and >> switches **** >> >> So in my case it seems to be a mechanical failure with the >> circuit connections... inside the ignitor >> >> rob >> >> > interesting! can't see how it would be possible to prevent this, or fix > it, but interesting nevertheless! > Without seeing a pic,I'd say it was a cheaply made igniter. It sounds like the wire broke from vibration or thermal stress.The pad lifting seems like it's a cheapo circuit board,not a ceramic substrate. I'd like to see a pic. On http://www.gcw.org.uk/rover/igniter.htm that black goo may be a grease to keep out water. If it were accumulated engine/road crud,it would have a gritty feel to it. Robb's tranlucent goo may be a different grease,perhaps a silicone grease. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
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