Jim Yanik

Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns99E6C851C561Btegger@207.14.116.130:

> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
> news:Xns99E6BFE30BAC5jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86:
>
>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
>> news:Xns99E69B75C2AEFtegger@207.14.116.130:
>>
>>> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
>>> news:Xns99E6730552E23jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84:
>>>
>>>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
>>>> news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Like jim says, it's possible. Apparently the igniter controls its
>>>>> own dwell by sensing back EMF as the coil charges up.
>>>>
>>>> From the pictures of an igniter you posted awhile back,the igniter
>>>> has a control IC that measures the emitter current
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Emitter current"... What's the difference between that and "back
>>> EMF"?
>>
>> "back EMF" is the current generated when the coil is -disconnected-
>> from the charging current,or as commonly called,the "flyback current".
>> The IC measures the CHARGING current,thru a resistor from emitter to
>> ground(while the transistor is ON).
>> The "back EMF" is the high voltage discharge generated for the spark
>> plugs when the coil's magnetic field collapses when the charge current
>> is switched off.Part of it's path is thru the snub
>> diode/condenser,around the switching transistor,to ground.
>>
>> What is called "dwell" is the time the coil is being charged,when the
>> points or transistor is "ON" and 12V is charging the coil.The longer
>> the dwell,the greater the magnetic field built up,and the higher the
>> back EMF generated when the charge current is disconnected(points open
>> or transistor switches OFF).
>
>
>
> OK....
>
> Then it seems like I need to change my reference to "back EMF" to read
> "emitter current" on the relevant igniter page.
>
> You have not yet defined "emitter current". Can you?
>
>
>

The "emitter" is one element of the switching transistor.
(on a schematic representation,the transistor element with an arrow
designates the emitter.direction of the arrow designates whether the
transistor is a NPN or PNP type transistor)

You have the base-emitter(B-E) current[from the IC] that controls the much
larger collector-emitter(C-E) current[coil charging current]. The control
IC measures the total emitter current,decides when to switch the transistor
off when it reaches specified levels,determined by the value of the emitter
resistor.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
news:13ji3l8lb9m4479@corp.supernews.com:

> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote
> Tegger wrote
>>> So then maybe the OP's igniter simply suffered a random
>>> failure.
>>>
>>> I've got 295,300 miles and seventeen years on my original
>>> igniter.
>>> Borrowed time?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I see no reason for an igniter to fail simply from age or
>> mileage.
>> I suspect poor heatsinking(that white compound between the
>> ceramic
>> substrate and the aluminum of the distributor) or
>> coil/wire arcing
>> transients.Grime buildup can also interfere with heat
>> transfer or allow for
>> leakage currents to flow across the circuit
>> improperly.Moisture would not
>> be good,either.
>
> Old wires or old spark plugs, or non-OEM of same, seem to me
> to candidates for contributing to failure of the igniter
> too.

That's what I meant by "coil/wire arcing transients";plug wires breaking
down or a coil insulation breakdown.
I don't think old spark plugs would cause an igniter to fail,unless they
had a cracked insulator or carbon tracks on the insulator from outside
contamination like dirt/grease.


>I base this on my experience with my 91 Civic's igniter
> (in the years when I was likely using non-OEM wires and/or
> plugs, or just not caring carefully for the OEM ones) vs.
> Tegger's set routine of replacing rotor, cap, and wires
> every five years.
>
>
>


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

robb

"Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns99E69B75C2AEFtegger@207.14.116.130...
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
> news:Xns99E6730552E23jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84:
>
> > Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
> > news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Like jim says, it's possible. Apparently the igniter
controls its own
> >> dwell by sensing back EMF as the coil charges up.
> >
> > From the pictures of an igniter you posted awhile back,the
igniter has
> > a control IC that measures the emitter current
>
>
> So then maybe the OP's igniter simply suffered a random
failure.
>
> I've got 295,300 miles and seventeen years on my original
igniter.
> Borrowed time?

Tegger,
i took my igniter apart to see what was inside. (it is labeled
OKI.)

i popped the plastic panel off the back there was sticky (but
not strong) transparent gel around the electronics. I could see
smallish silver wires welded to each outer ternminal and then
connected to contact points/pads on the circuit board.. while
removing the gel *carefully* with Q-tip, one of the silver wires
easily came away from it's pad/tower. then one of the
pads/towers (that the wires connected to) just lifted off the
circuit board ( no force ) this was not good as i could not
budge any of the remaining contact pads by jamming with a Q-tip.
when i inspected the pad and circuit board with a magnifyng glass
there appeaared to be corrosion or oxidation where the loose pads
were mounted

so i tested switching electronics by using sharp probes and
making the test contacts directly onto circuit board pads or pad
mount points... to my surprise the ignitor ****works and
switches ****

So in my case it seems to be a mechanical failure with the
circuit connections... inside the ignitor

rob

Jim Yanik

"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in
news:13jidmm8gfqcd93@corp.supernews.com:

>
> "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
> news:Xns99E69B75C2AEFtegger@207.14.116.130...
>> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
>> news:Xns99E6730552E23jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84:
>>
>> > Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
>> > news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130:
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Like jim says, it's possible. Apparently the igniter
> controls its own
>> >> dwell by sensing back EMF as the coil charges up.
>> >
>> > From the pictures of an igniter you posted awhile back,the
> igniter has
>> > a control IC that measures the emitter current
>>
>>
>> So then maybe the OP's igniter simply suffered a random
> failure.
>>
>> I've got 295,300 miles and seventeen years on my original
> igniter.
>> Borrowed time?
>
> Tegger,
> i took my igniter apart to see what was inside. (it is labeled
> OKI.)
>
> i popped the plastic panel off the back there was sticky (but
> not strong) transparent gel around the electronics. I could see
> smallish silver wires welded to each outer ternminal and then
> connected to contact points/pads on the circuit board.. while
> removing the gel *carefully* with Q-tip, one of the silver wires
> easily came away from it's pad/tower. then one of the
> pads/towers (that the wires connected to) just lifted off the
> circuit board ( no force ) this was not good as i could not
> budge any of the remaining contact pads by jamming with a Q-tip.
> when i inspected the pad and circuit board with a magnifyng glass
> there appeaared to be corrosion or oxidation where the loose pads
> were mounted
>
> so i tested switching electronics by using sharp probes and
> making the test contacts directly onto circuit board pads or pad
> mount points... to my surprise the ignitor ****works and
> switches ****
>
> So in my case it seems to be a mechanical failure with the
> circuit connections... inside the ignitor
>
> rob
>
>
>

Tegger has/had a picture of an igniter on his website,and that one had a
ceramic substrate for a circuit board.It has the resistors printed directly
on the ceramic,"thick-film" resistors.It makes a very durable,reliable
component.

Was yours an epoxy-glass (or worse,phenolic) PCB with soldered-on
(discrete)resistors?
If so,I wonder if it were a non-OEM igniter?
Maybe you could post a pix or 2 somewhere?


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Tegger

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
news:Xns99E752D8A9127jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.85:


>
> Tegger has/had a picture of an igniter on his website,



Still do, as a link to Grahame Wood's page in the UK:
http://www.gcw.org.uk/rover/igniter.htm.



> and that one had
> a ceramic substrate for a circuit board.It has the resistors printed
> directly on the ceramic,"thick-film" resistors.It makes a very
> durable,reliable component.
>
> Was yours an epoxy-glass (or worse,phenolic) PCB with soldered-on
> (discrete)resistors?
> If so,I wonder if it were a non-OEM igniter?
> Maybe you could post a pix or 2 somewhere?
>
>


Send 'em to me. I'll put them up.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
news:Xns99E6EF43834AFjyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84:


>>
>> You have not yet defined "emitter current". Can you?
>>
>>
>>
>
> The "emitter" is one element of the switching transistor.
> (on a schematic representation,the transistor element with an arrow
> designates the emitter.direction of the arrow designates whether the
> transistor is a NPN or PNP type transistor)
>
> You have the base-emitter(B-E) current[from the IC] that controls the
> much larger collector-emitter(C-E) current[coil charging current]. The
> control IC measures the total emitter current,decides when to switch
> the transistor off when it reaches specified levels,determined by the
> value of the emitter resistor.
>



Found a schematic online. This is a little over my head, but I'm trying to
grasp it anyway.

As I understand it, the IC drops the base current at the correct time,
causing flow to stop between emitter and collector. This is the action of
switching the transistor off, forcing the field collapse that creates the
HT current in the coil.

According to some pages I'm finding, the current-limiting resistor changes
its value as *voltage* goes up, which is how the IC knows what's happening.
http://www.williamson-labs.com/480_xtor.htm

But I'm not following how *voltage* goes up here. I'm not understanding the
connection between *current* and *voltage*. I thought the two were
independent of each other.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in news:13jidmm8gfqcd93
@corp.supernews.com:


>
> Tegger,
> i took my igniter apart to see what was inside. (it is labeled
> OKI.)
>
> i popped the plastic panel off the back there was sticky (but
> not strong) transparent gel around the electronics. I could see
> smallish silver wires welded to each outer ternminal and then
> connected to contact points/pads on the circuit board.. while
> removing the gel *carefully* with Q-tip, one of the silver wires
> easily came away from it's pad/tower. then one of the
> pads/towers (that the wires connected to) just lifted off the
> circuit board ( no force ) this was not good as i could not
> budge any of the remaining contact pads by jamming with a Q-tip.
> when i inspected the pad and circuit board with a magnifyng glass
> there appeaared to be corrosion or oxidation where the loose pads
> were mounted
>
> so i tested switching electronics by using sharp probes and
> making the test contacts directly onto circuit board pads or pad
> mount points... to my surprise the ignitor ****works and
> switches ****
>
> So in my case it seems to be a mechanical failure with the
> circuit connections... inside the ignitor
>
> rob
>
>
>


Very interesting. I'd love to see pictures, if you can get them. Especially
of the wire having come loose from its pad.

Grahame Wood has similar pics on his Web site, here:
http://www.gcw.org.uk/rover/igniter.htm

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in news:13ji3l8lb9m4479
@corp.supernews.com:


>
> Old wires or old spark plugs, or non-OEM of same, seem to me
> to candidates for contributing to failure of the igniter
> too. I base this on my experience with my 91 Civic's igniter
> (in the years when I was likely using non-OEM wires and/or
> plugs, or just not caring carefully for the OEM ones) vs.
> Tegger's set routine of replacing rotor, cap, and wires
> every five years.
>
>


And they said I was nuts...

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
news:13ji3l8lb9m4479@corp.supernews.com:

> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote
> Tegger wrote
>>> So then maybe the OP's igniter simply suffered a random
>>> failure.
>>>
>>> I've got 295,300 miles and seventeen years on my original
>>> igniter.
>>> Borrowed time?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I see no reason for an igniter to fail simply from age or
>> mileage.
>> I suspect poor heatsinking(that white compound between the
>> ceramic
>> substrate and the aluminum of the distributor) or
>> coil/wire arcing
>> transients.Grime buildup can also interfere with heat
>> transfer or allow for
>> leakage currents to flow across the circuit
>> improperly.Moisture would not
>> be good,either.
>
> Old wires or old spark plugs, or non-OEM of same, seem to me
> to candidates for contributing to failure of the igniter
> too. I base this on my experience with my 91 Civic's igniter
> (in the years when I was likely using non-OEM wires and/or
> plugs, or just not caring carefully for the OEM ones) vs.
> Tegger's set routine of replacing rotor, cap, and wires
> every five years.
>
>


A very important additional point to be made is that coil/wire arcing
and leakage to ground will result in a steady flow of tiny misfires,
much too small to be felt by you, and possibly even the OBD-II system.

These misfires are by far and away the #1 cause of catalytic converter
failure. The constant trickle of unburnt fuel "sinters" the surface of
the cat, reducing its surface area, and thus reducing its effectiveness.

The OBD-II system makes a very big deal of monitoring closely for
misfires for this very reason.

Replacement of the entire HT side with new OEM every four or five years
(plugs more often than that) will do much to help your horrendously
expensive OEM cat last the lifetime of the vehicle.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

jim beam

robb wrote:
> "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
> news:Xns99E69B75C2AEFtegger@207.14.116.130...
>> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
>> news:Xns99E6730552E23jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84:
>>
>>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
>>> news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Like jim says, it's possible. Apparently the igniter
> controls its own
>>>> dwell by sensing back EMF as the coil charges up.
>>> From the pictures of an igniter you posted awhile back,the
> igniter has
>>> a control IC that measures the emitter current
>>
>> So then maybe the OP's igniter simply suffered a random
> failure.
>> I've got 295,300 miles and seventeen years on my original
> igniter.
>> Borrowed time?
>
> Tegger,
> i took my igniter apart to see what was inside. (it is labeled
> OKI.)
>
> i popped the plastic panel off the back there was sticky (but
> not strong) transparent gel around the electronics. I could see
> smallish silver wires welded to each outer ternminal and then
> connected to contact points/pads on the circuit board.. while
> removing the gel *carefully* with Q-tip, one of the silver wires
> easily came away from it's pad/tower. then one of the
> pads/towers (that the wires connected to) just lifted off the
> circuit board ( no force ) this was not good as i could not
> budge any of the remaining contact pads by jamming with a Q-tip.
> when i inspected the pad and circuit board with a magnifyng glass
> there appeaared to be corrosion or oxidation where the loose pads
> were mounted
>
> so i tested switching electronics by using sharp probes and
> making the test contacts directly onto circuit board pads or pad
> mount points... to my surprise the ignitor ****works and
> switches ****
>
> So in my case it seems to be a mechanical failure with the
> circuit connections... inside the ignitor
>
> rob
>
>
interesting! can't see how it would be possible to prevent this, or fix
it, but interesting nevertheless!

robb

"Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns99E758710C415tegger@207.14.116.130...
> "robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in news:13jidmm8gfqcd93
> @corp.supernews.com:
>
>
> >
> > Tegger,
> > i took my igniter apart to see what was inside. (it is
labeled
> > OKI.)
> > So in my case it seems to be a mechanical failure with the
> > circuit connections... inside the ignitor
> >
>
> Very interesting. I'd love to see pictures, if you can get
them. Especially
> of the wire having come loose from its pad.
>
sure i can do that but i do not have a convenient web site to
post pics, i will need to put them on one of the file share sites
or post to some binary usenet group e.g. alt.binaries.???

all the terminal wires have broken off while finishing the
cleaning and performing the test with the probes. those silver
connector wires were quite fragile... one bend and a return bend
and they popped right off the pads that the wires connected to
on the actuall circuit board might be more interesting as they
should be welded to the circuit board and not pop off at all.

then the one pad that did dis-connect had corrosion on the weld
where it was suppose to be conected to circuit board. looked like
lead that is oxidized, dark gray and when you scratch it you get
shiny silver

i'll find a place to post the pics and post links here later,
rob

Elle

"Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
E wrote
>> Old wires or old spark plugs, or non-OEM of same, seem to
>> me
>> to candidates for contributing to failure of the igniter
>> too. I base this on my experience with my 91 Civic's
>> igniter
>> (in the years when I was likely using non-OEM wires
>> and/or
>> plugs, or just not caring carefully for the OEM ones) vs.
>> Tegger's set routine of replacing rotor, cap, and wires
>> every five years.
>>
>>
>
>
> And they said I was nuts...

Who said this? :-) I just checked my personal "Honda
Maintenance" sheet with the OEM maintenance schedule
and the ones others recommend, and what you do is not far
from what is OEM recommended: 60k/4 years for wires, rotor
and cap. I am going with yours for the immediate future,
though. Or I will go to four years, since as of a few months
ago, I am now living in an even hotter climate out West, and
I think the heat takes more of a toll on the electronics and
electrical (read: battery especially!) parts.

Jim, understood about the transients. Bad wording on my
part. I was trying to give the practical, "for-the-amateur,"
candidate solution to the transients.

Tegger

"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in
news:13jjd34bk6ol48d@corp.supernews.com:


>
> i'll find a place to post the pics and post links here later,
> rob
>
>
>


Email them to me. I'll make them part of the igniter pages.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Jim Yanik

Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns99E757F9DB31Etegger@207.14.116.130:

> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
> news:Xns99E6EF43834AFjyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84:
>
>
>>>
>>> You have not yet defined "emitter current". Can you?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The "emitter" is one element of the switching transistor.
>> (on a schematic representation,the transistor element with an arrow
>> designates the emitter.direction of the arrow designates whether the
>> transistor is a NPN or PNP type transistor)
>>
>> You have the base-emitter(B-E) current[from the IC] that controls the
>> much larger collector-emitter(C-E) current[coil charging current].
>> The control IC measures the total emitter current,decides when to
>> switch the transistor off when it reaches specified levels,determined
>> by the value of the emitter resistor.
>>
>
>
>
> Found a schematic online. This is a little over my head, but I'm
> trying to grasp it anyway.
>
> As I understand it, the IC drops the base current at the correct time,
> causing flow to stop between emitter and collector. This is the action
> of switching the transistor off, forcing the field collapse that
> creates the HT current in the coil.

Right!
>
> According to some pages I'm finding, the current-limiting resistor
> changes its value as *voltage* goes up, which is how the IC knows
> what's happening. http://www.williamson-labs.com/480_xtor.htm

No,for the igniter,the emitter resistor is a fixed value,and the -voltage
developed across it- increases as current thru it increases(the coil
current).That voltage is fed back to an IC input and when it reaches a set
value,the IC shuts off the transistor.That's how the IC measures the coil
current.
>
> But I'm not following how *voltage* goes up here. I'm not
> understanding the connection between *current* and *voltage*. I
> thought the two were independent of each other.

here's the relationship;
E=IxR
I=E/R

E=voltage
I= current
R= resistance



See,when you hook 12V across a coil,the current thru the coil is a linear
ramp up until the coil saturates. So,the IC measures that ramping current
with the emitter resistor,and compares the voltage developed across the
resistor to an internal voltage,when they equal,a switch turns off the
external switcher transistor,removing the 12V from the coil.
Then the magnetic field collapses and the HV spark is generated in the coil
windings.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:EZednYV2r6brMqTanZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> robb wrote:
>> "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
>> news:Xns99E69B75C2AEFtegger@207.14.116.130...
>>> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
>>> news:Xns99E6730552E23jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84:
>>>
>>>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
>>>> news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Like jim says, it's possible. Apparently the igniter
>> controls its own
>>>>> dwell by sensing back EMF as the coil charges up.
>>>> From the pictures of an igniter you posted awhile back,the
>> igniter has
>>>> a control IC that measures the emitter current
>>>
>>> So then maybe the OP's igniter simply suffered a random
>> failure.
>>> I've got 295,300 miles and seventeen years on my original
>> igniter.
>>> Borrowed time?
>>
>> Tegger,
>> i took my igniter apart to see what was inside. (it is labeled
>> OKI.)
>>
>> i popped the plastic panel off the back there was sticky (but
>> not strong) transparent gel around the electronics. I could see
>> smallish silver wires welded to each outer ternminal and then
>> connected to contact points/pads on the circuit board.. while
>> removing the gel *carefully* with Q-tip, one of the silver wires
>> easily came away from it's pad/tower. then one of the
>> pads/towers (that the wires connected to) just lifted off the
>> circuit board ( no force ) this was not good as i could not
>> budge any of the remaining contact pads by jamming with a Q-tip.
>> when i inspected the pad and circuit board with a magnifyng glass
>> there appeaared to be corrosion or oxidation where the loose pads
>> were mounted
>>
>> so i tested switching electronics by using sharp probes and
>> making the test contacts directly onto circuit board pads or pad
>> mount points... to my surprise the ignitor ****works and
>> switches ****
>>
>> So in my case it seems to be a mechanical failure with the
>> circuit connections... inside the ignitor
>>
>> rob
>>
>>
> interesting! can't see how it would be possible to prevent this, or fix
> it, but interesting nevertheless!
>

Without seeing a pic,I'd say it was a cheaply made igniter.
It sounds like the wire broke from vibration or thermal stress.The pad
lifting seems like it's a cheapo circuit board,not a ceramic substrate.
I'd like to see a pic.


On
http://www.gcw.org.uk/rover/igniter.htm
that black goo may be a grease to keep out water.
If it were accumulated engine/road crud,it would have a gritty feel to it.

Robb's tranlucent goo may be a different grease,perhaps a silicone grease.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net