robb

"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in message
news:13je0kh3pch9fb8@corp.supernews.com...
> i was driving along highway 70 mph and the engines just ** cuts
> out **
> no warning, no sputter, no bucking, no shimmer, no funny noises
> {clunks, thuds nothing} engine turns over fine, power going to
> everything, fuses look ok, half-tank of gas
>
Thanks for all help Tegger and jim beam,

Problem was definately the ignitor.

Went with your advices and purchsased Honda parts, the
ignitor/ICM was ($126).

installed ICM and car fired right up.

the bent dist. cap contact spring must have come from some lazy
azz who did not want to pull spark plug wires to put distributor
cap back on (dealer replaced the distributor about 3 years ago)
but that seems to just mean the shell/housing as they transfered
all the old internal parts {ICM,coil, rotor, dist cap} to the
new distributor housing

I went ahead and checked the Mains Relay (for solder problems)...
i must have the new design as there was lots of solder on the
connections with very large traces between the connections,
looked good to me.

thanks again for the help.
robb

Tegger

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
news:Xns99E79F1CF996Djyanikkuanet@64.209.0.87:

> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
> news:Xns99E757F9DB31Etegger@207.14.116.130:

>>
>> But I'm not following how *voltage* goes up here. I'm not
>> understanding the connection between *current* and *voltage*. I
>> thought the two were independent of each other.
>
> here's the relationship;
> E=IxR
> I=E/R
>
> E=voltage
> I= current
> R= resistance
>
>


Aha, I see. So if the current goes up, that changes the product of IxR.



>
> See,when you hook 12V across a coil,the current thru the coil is a
> linear ramp up until the coil saturates.



Now it makes more sense. I didn't know the current changed during coil
dwell time.

So then...With a Kettering breaker-points system, the points gap
provided control over dwell. With Honda's electronic system, an IC is
monitoring voltage across a resistor to determine dwell.



> So,the IC measures that
> ramping current with the emitter resistor,and compares the voltage
> developed across the resistor to an internal voltage,when they equal,a
> switch turns off the external switcher transistor,removing the 12V
> from the coil. Then the magnetic field collapses and the HV spark is
> generated in the coil windings.


Do you know what's used as a "snubber" for the ~200V back voltage from
the primary? Or is one even needed? In the old days you had a condenser
for that task.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
news:Xns99E7A0C309BDEjyanikkuanet@64.209.0.87:


>>
>
> Without seeing a pic,I'd say it was a cheaply made igniter.



I'd agree with that.



> It sounds like the wire broke from vibration or thermal stress.The pad
> lifting seems like it's a cheapo circuit board,not a ceramic
> substrate. I'd like to see a pic.



See a whole page, with more details, here:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ure/index.html


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Jim Yanik

Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns99F05D371D79Ategger@207.14.116.130:

> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
> news:Xns99E79F1CF996Djyanikkuanet@64.209.0.87:
>
>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
>> news:Xns99E757F9DB31Etegger@207.14.116.130:
>
>>>
>>> But I'm not following how *voltage* goes up here. I'm not
>>> understanding the connection between *current* and *voltage*. I
>>> thought the two were independent of each other.
>>
>> here's the relationship;
>> E=IxR
>> I=E/R
>>
>> E=voltage
>> I= current
>> R= resistance
>>
>>
>
>
> Aha, I see. So if the current goes up, that changes the product of IxR.
>
>
>
>>
>> See,when you hook 12V across a coil,the current thru the coil is a
>> linear ramp up until the coil saturates.
>
>
>
> Now it makes more sense. I didn't know the current changed during coil
> dwell time.
>
> So then...With a Kettering breaker-points system, the points gap
> provided control over dwell. With Honda's electronic system, an IC is
> monitoring voltage across a resistor to determine dwell.
>
>
>
>> So,the IC measures that
>> ramping current with the emitter resistor,and compares the voltage
>> developed across the resistor to an internal voltage,when they equal,a
>> switch turns off the external switcher transistor,removing the 12V
>> from the coil. Then the magnetic field collapses and the HV spark is
>> generated in the coil windings.
>
>
> Do you know what's used as a "snubber" for the ~200V back voltage from
> the primary? Or is one even needed? In the old days you had a condenser
> for that task.
>

the switching transistor may have an internal bypass diode.
Many TV sets have transistors that have the diode built in.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik

Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns99F0671E17E3Dtegger@207.14.116.130:

> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
> news:Xns99E7A0C309BDEjyanikkuanet@64.209.0.87:
>
>
>>>
>>
>> Without seeing a pic,I'd say it was a cheaply made igniter.
>
>
>
> I'd agree with that.
>
>
>
>> It sounds like the wire broke from vibration or thermal stress.The pad
>> lifting seems like it's a cheapo circuit board,not a ceramic
>> substrate. I'd like to see a pic.
>
>
>
> See a whole page, with more details, here:
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ure/index.html
>
>

well,it IS a ceramic substrate.
It looks like there was a bond failure on that one pad. that should not be
a very common problem.
My own experience is that you cannot resolder them once they break,but
others have said if you use "special solder",you can.I can't say how
reliable that would be,but I'd not risk it.


It also looks like the switcher transistor is a bare chip die bonded to the
aluminum backing,interesting.
I'd say that this igniter is a lower quality one than the one depicted on
Graham's Rover page. That one uses eyelets to connect to the ceramic
substrate's pads,much sturdier mechanically.

Nice page,BTW,Tegger.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Tegger

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
news:Xns99F08BD3013D3jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86:

> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
> news:Xns99F05D371D79Ategger@207.14.116.130:

>>
>>> So,the IC measures that
>>> ramping current with the emitter resistor,and compares the voltage
>>> developed across the resistor to an internal voltage,when they
>>> equal,a switch turns off the external switcher transistor,removing
>>> the 12V from the coil. Then the magnetic field collapses and the HV
>>> spark is generated in the coil windings.
>>
>>
>> Do you know what's used as a "snubber" for the ~200V back voltage
>> from the primary? Or is one even needed? In the old days you had a
>> condenser for that task.
>>
>
> the switching transistor may have an internal bypass diode.
> Many TV sets have transistors that have the diode built in.
>


Thanks for the information. I'm going to update the igniter pages one more
time to reflect what you've helped me with.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
news:Xns99F08F0D6B669jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86:


>
>
> It also looks like the switcher transistor is a bare chip die bonded
> to the aluminum backing,interesting.
> I'd say that this igniter is a lower quality one than the one depicted
> on Graham's Rover page. That one uses eyelets to connect to the
> ceramic substrate's pads,much sturdier mechanically.
>
> Nice page,BTW,Tegger.
>


Thanks.

I seem to remember that Honda once had a TSB or HSN article on igniter
failure where the OKI igniter was bad and the NEC one was good. I can't find
it just now, though...



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/