93 Honda Civic Mileage gone bad
12-10-2005, 05:43 PM
#31
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 93 Honda Civic Mileage gone bad
I bought a new PCV, took the old one out and it turns out that the old
one works better than the new one(the new one doens't close all the way
and the flow is more restricted), it's just a one-way valve, that's it,
no wonder they are cheap.
So I left the old one in.
one works better than the new one(the new one doens't close all the way
and the flow is more restricted), it's just a one-way valve, that's it,
no wonder they are cheap.
So I left the old one in.
12-10-2005, 06:02 PM
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 93 Honda Civic Mileage gone bad
Update: Could be completely unrelated. The PO told me about this very
intermittent problem and this is only the second time I've run into it.
The car doens't start after it's been warmed up. It turns over
great... but just doesn't run. The previous time, It started after
several attempts (30 sec or so).
This time, I had warmed it up and then did a compression test. Then,
when going to start it again, it just won't run. I've checked the
usual stuff (sparks plugged in, injectors plugged in). I even tried
cranking for 20 seconds to see if the ECU would register something
faulty. Nothing. My guess is it will start after cooling down....
why though?
Could I have messed something up ignition wise by cranking with the
plug wires removed?
intermittent problem and this is only the second time I've run into it.
The car doens't start after it's been warmed up. It turns over
great... but just doesn't run. The previous time, It started after
several attempts (30 sec or so).
This time, I had warmed it up and then did a compression test. Then,
when going to start it again, it just won't run. I've checked the
usual stuff (sparks plugged in, injectors plugged in). I even tried
cranking for 20 seconds to see if the ECU would register something
faulty. Nothing. My guess is it will start after cooling down....
why though?
Could I have messed something up ignition wise by cranking with the
plug wires removed?
12-10-2005, 07:15 PM
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 93 Honda Civic Mileage gone bad
"Danny Beardsley" <dbeardsl@gmail.com> wrote
> I bought a new PCV, took the old one out and it turns out
that the old
> one works better than the new one(the new one doens't
close all the way
> and the flow is more restricted),
How do you know this isn't the way it's supposed to work?
> it's just a one-way valve, that's it,
If you google on the internet and examine a cut-away, it's
far more than a check valve.
> no wonder they are cheap.
>
> So I left the old one in.
Suit yourself. :-) I saw your other post and see you're now
dealing with a bigger problem. I'd be checking the coil.
> I bought a new PCV, took the old one out and it turns out
that the old
> one works better than the new one(the new one doens't
close all the way
> and the flow is more restricted),
How do you know this isn't the way it's supposed to work?
> it's just a one-way valve, that's it,
If you google on the internet and examine a cut-away, it's
far more than a check valve.
> no wonder they are cheap.
>
> So I left the old one in.
Suit yourself. :-) I saw your other post and see you're now
dealing with a bigger problem. I'd be checking the coil.
12-10-2005, 08:42 PM
#34
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 93 Honda Civic Mileage gone bad
"Danny Beardsley" <dbeardsl@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134254585.172702.227540@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
>I bought a new PCV, took the old one out and it turns out that the old
> one works better than the new one(the new one doens't close all the way
> and the flow is more restricted), it's just a one-way valve, that's it,
> no wonder they are cheap.
>
> So I left the old one in.
>
I've never found a reliable way of testing them. I clean the bejeebers out
of them with carb cleaner (some don't survive parts dip) if I don't have any
place to buy a replacement at the time. They normally shouldn't close all
the way, although they can close at wide open throttle or when you are
holding it in your hand. At idle, they should allow some bypass to scavenge
the small amount of blow-by. At cruise throttle, they should open to
scavenge the increased amount of blow-by. Your old one may be defective - it
sounds like the spring has become weak. Normally you should feel quite a bit
of resistance (the proper direction, blowing from the engine end) at
pressures we puny humans can produce.
Mike
news:1134254585.172702.227540@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
>I bought a new PCV, took the old one out and it turns out that the old
> one works better than the new one(the new one doens't close all the way
> and the flow is more restricted), it's just a one-way valve, that's it,
> no wonder they are cheap.
>
> So I left the old one in.
>
I've never found a reliable way of testing them. I clean the bejeebers out
of them with carb cleaner (some don't survive parts dip) if I don't have any
place to buy a replacement at the time. They normally shouldn't close all
the way, although they can close at wide open throttle or when you are
holding it in your hand. At idle, they should allow some bypass to scavenge
the small amount of blow-by. At cruise throttle, they should open to
scavenge the increased amount of blow-by. Your old one may be defective - it
sounds like the spring has become weak. Normally you should feel quite a bit
of resistance (the proper direction, blowing from the engine end) at
pressures we puny humans can produce.
Mike
12-10-2005, 08:48 PM
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 93 Honda Civic Mileage gone bad
"Danny Beardsley" <dbeardsl@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134255768.283949.104160@g47g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Update: Could be completely unrelated. The PO told me about this very
> intermittent problem and this is only the second time I've run into it.
>
> The car doens't start after it's been warmed up. It turns over
> great... but just doesn't run. The previous time, It started after
> several attempts (30 sec or so).
>
> This time, I had warmed it up and then did a compression test. Then,
> when going to start it again, it just won't run. I've checked the
> usual stuff (sparks plugged in, injectors plugged in). I even tried
> cranking for 20 seconds to see if the ECU would register something
> faulty. Nothing. My guess is it will start after cooling down....
> why though?
>
> Could I have messed something up ignition wise by cranking with the
> plug wires removed?
>
Sadly, it's very possible. Honda spark coils are not very tolerant of being
fired up without a load. My son zapped his coil just using the starter to
"bump" the distributor to the proper position. The result can be seen at
http://tegger.com/hondafaq/badsecond...al-arcing.html D'oh!
The initial problem sounds like a bad "main relay" - see
http://tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#startrun for the straight scoop on that.
Mike
news:1134255768.283949.104160@g47g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Update: Could be completely unrelated. The PO told me about this very
> intermittent problem and this is only the second time I've run into it.
>
> The car doens't start after it's been warmed up. It turns over
> great... but just doesn't run. The previous time, It started after
> several attempts (30 sec or so).
>
> This time, I had warmed it up and then did a compression test. Then,
> when going to start it again, it just won't run. I've checked the
> usual stuff (sparks plugged in, injectors plugged in). I even tried
> cranking for 20 seconds to see if the ECU would register something
> faulty. Nothing. My guess is it will start after cooling down....
> why though?
>
> Could I have messed something up ignition wise by cranking with the
> plug wires removed?
>
Sadly, it's very possible. Honda spark coils are not very tolerant of being
fired up without a load. My son zapped his coil just using the starter to
"bump" the distributor to the proper position. The result can be seen at
http://tegger.com/hondafaq/badsecond...al-arcing.html D'oh!
The initial problem sounds like a bad "main relay" - see
http://tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#startrun for the straight scoop on that.
Mike
12-10-2005, 09:56 PM
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 93 Honda Civic Mileage gone bad
Elle wrote:
> Of note: Someone in the thread did mention that some parts
> of the country switch to a much lower heating value of
> gasoline sometime in the Fall, right? IIRC, that right there
oxygenated gas. used in many parts of california from (IIRC) nov thru march.
> will drop mileage on the order of 10%. Also, I don't know
> where you are, but where I am, we're having unusually cold
> temperatures. My mileage is taking a beating of about 5-10%
> lower than it did last year at this time.
>
>
> Of note: Someone in the thread did mention that some parts
> of the country switch to a much lower heating value of
> gasoline sometime in the Fall, right? IIRC, that right there
oxygenated gas. used in many parts of california from (IIRC) nov thru march.
> will drop mileage on the order of 10%. Also, I don't know
> where you are, but where I am, we're having unusually cold
> temperatures. My mileage is taking a beating of about 5-10%
> lower than it did last year at this time.
>
>
12-11-2005, 10:47 AM
#37
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 93 Honda Civic Mileage gone bad
"TE Cheah" <no@spam.biz> wrote in message news:439c2a29_2@news.tm.net.my...
>| Consider a new oxygen sensor.
> Without checking its output 1st ? This is stupid, user can chk sensor's
> output easily. http://home.flash.net/~lorint/lorin/fuel/lambda.htm
That is a classic pass/fail test for O2 sensors, but most sensors fail by
becoming more and more sluggish - degrading over time. When new, they should
produce over 7 transitions per second as the output drives the mixture back
and forth past the ideal point. As the sensor ages, the response rate drops
until the ECU will no longer tolerate it and you get the "check engine"
light. As another recently reported here, replacing an old O2 sensor can
improve throttle response even if the reaction time of the old one was not
causing the ECU to complain. The ECU must also adjust the mixture at a rate
that is independent of the condition of the O2 sensor (because it has no
direct knowledge of the sensor's condition), so the mixture will fluctuate
more in proportion to the sluggishness of the sensor.
IMHO the "sweet spot" in the car's life for replacing the O2 sensor is
around the half-way mark, or between 100K and 150K miles. I doubt many O2
sensors last the life of good modern cars, so we can all expect to replace
the sensor once (whether the little light comes on or not). If we are going
to remove the sensor for testing because we suspect it, I suggest the best
thing to do is put in a new one and be done with it.
Mike
>| Consider a new oxygen sensor.
> Without checking its output 1st ? This is stupid, user can chk sensor's
> output easily. http://home.flash.net/~lorint/lorin/fuel/lambda.htm
That is a classic pass/fail test for O2 sensors, but most sensors fail by
becoming more and more sluggish - degrading over time. When new, they should
produce over 7 transitions per second as the output drives the mixture back
and forth past the ideal point. As the sensor ages, the response rate drops
until the ECU will no longer tolerate it and you get the "check engine"
light. As another recently reported here, replacing an old O2 sensor can
improve throttle response even if the reaction time of the old one was not
causing the ECU to complain. The ECU must also adjust the mixture at a rate
that is independent of the condition of the O2 sensor (because it has no
direct knowledge of the sensor's condition), so the mixture will fluctuate
more in proportion to the sluggishness of the sensor.
IMHO the "sweet spot" in the car's life for replacing the O2 sensor is
around the half-way mark, or between 100K and 150K miles. I doubt many O2
sensors last the life of good modern cars, so we can all expect to replace
the sensor once (whether the little light comes on or not). If we are going
to remove the sensor for testing because we suspect it, I suggest the best
thing to do is put in a new one and be done with it.
Mike
12-11-2005, 02:12 PM
#38
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 93 Honda Civic Mileage gone bad
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
news:eqqdnVVSGs6I1wHenZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@sedona.net:
>
> IMHO the "sweet spot" in the car's life for replacing the O2 sensor is
> around the half-way mark, or between 100K and 150K miles. I doubt many
> O2 sensors last the life of good modern cars, so we can all expect to
> replace the sensor once (whether the little light comes on or not). If
> we are going to remove the sensor for testing because we suspect it, I
> suggest the best thing to do is put in a new one and be done with it.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
Question;use a OEM Honda/Acura O2 sensor,or will a 3rd party sensor
suffice? (at a lower price)
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
news:eqqdnVVSGs6I1wHenZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@sedona.net:
>
> IMHO the "sweet spot" in the car's life for replacing the O2 sensor is
> around the half-way mark, or between 100K and 150K miles. I doubt many
> O2 sensors last the life of good modern cars, so we can all expect to
> replace the sensor once (whether the little light comes on or not). If
> we are going to remove the sensor for testing because we suspect it, I
> suggest the best thing to do is put in a new one and be done with it.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
Question;use a OEM Honda/Acura O2 sensor,or will a 3rd party sensor
suffice? (at a lower price)
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
12-11-2005, 06:06 PM
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 93 Honda Civic Mileage gone bad
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9729907138B34jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.86.. .
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
> news:eqqdnVVSGs6I1wHenZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@sedona.net:
>
>>
>> IMHO the "sweet spot" in the car's life for replacing the O2 sensor is
>> around the half-way mark, or between 100K and 150K miles. I doubt many
>> O2 sensors last the life of good modern cars, so we can all expect to
>> replace the sensor once (whether the little light comes on or not). If
>> we are going to remove the sensor for testing because we suspect it, I
>> suggest the best thing to do is put in a new one and be done with it.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>
> Question;use a OEM Honda/Acura O2 sensor,or will a 3rd party sensor
> suffice? (at a lower price)
>
> --
> Jim Yanik
> jyanik
> at
> kua.net
Elle found a place to get OEM on-line at a nice price for early models. I
thought I saved the link but maybe she'll see our plight and repost it.
Mike
news:Xns9729907138B34jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.86.. .
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
> news:eqqdnVVSGs6I1wHenZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@sedona.net:
>
>>
>> IMHO the "sweet spot" in the car's life for replacing the O2 sensor is
>> around the half-way mark, or between 100K and 150K miles. I doubt many
>> O2 sensors last the life of good modern cars, so we can all expect to
>> replace the sensor once (whether the little light comes on or not). If
>> we are going to remove the sensor for testing because we suspect it, I
>> suggest the best thing to do is put in a new one and be done with it.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>
> Question;use a OEM Honda/Acura O2 sensor,or will a 3rd party sensor
> suffice? (at a lower price)
>
> --
> Jim Yanik
> jyanik
> at
> kua.net
Elle found a place to get OEM on-line at a nice price for early models. I
thought I saved the link but maybe she'll see our plight and repost it.
Mike
12-11-2005, 09:54 PM
#41
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 93 Honda Civic Mileage gone bad
I purchased an Ignition Coil online at
http://www.thepartsbin.com/
$46.50
+ Distributor O-Ring ($3)
+ some random $1 thing to push me over the $50 free shipping mark.
http://www.thepartsbin.com/
$46.50
+ Distributor O-Ring ($3)
+ some random $1 thing to push me over the $50 free shipping mark.
12-11-2005, 10:29 PM
#42
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 93 Honda Civic Mileage gone bad
"Danny Beardsley" <dbeardsl@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134356040.875228.43130@g14g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
>I purchased an Ignition Coil online at
>
> http://www.thepartsbin.com/
>
> $46.50
> + Distributor O-Ring ($3)
> + some random $1 thing to push me over the $50 free shipping mark.
>
Thanks for the link!
Mike
news:1134356040.875228.43130@g14g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
>I purchased an Ignition Coil online at
>
> http://www.thepartsbin.com/
>
> $46.50
> + Distributor O-Ring ($3)
> + some random $1 thing to push me over the $50 free shipping mark.
>
Thanks for the link!
Mike
12-12-2005, 12:11 AM
#43
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 93 Honda Civic Mileage gone bad
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote
> > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
> >> IMHO the "sweet spot" in the car's life for replacing
the O2 sensor is
> >> around the half-way mark, or between 100K and 150K
miles. I doubt many
> >> O2 sensors last the life of good modern cars, so we can
all expect to
> >> replace the sensor once (whether the little light comes
on or not). If
> >> we are going to remove the sensor for testing because
we suspect it, I
> >> suggest the best thing to do is put in a new one and be
done with it.
> > Question;use a OEM Honda/Acura O2 sensor,or will a 3rd
party sensor
> > suffice? (at a lower price)
>
> Elle found a place to get OEM on-line at a nice price for
early models. I
> thought I saved the link but maybe she'll see our plight
and repost it.
https://www.automedicsupply.com/
I bought one for my 91 Civic from these folks about a
year-and-a-half ago. Good service. No problems. I think
their prices are competitive for more recent models, too.
From my reading on the net last year, people say to only buy
OEM. Aftermarket are not as reliable.
For the original poster: Check that timing! I monkeyed with
mine a bit a month ago, and I think it's why my mileage
dropped a bit below 40 mpg on the last three tanks. So darn
hard to see the timing marks lined up, especially with
middle aged eyes. Or I didn't let the car warm up enough.
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote
> > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
> >> IMHO the "sweet spot" in the car's life for replacing
the O2 sensor is
> >> around the half-way mark, or between 100K and 150K
miles. I doubt many
> >> O2 sensors last the life of good modern cars, so we can
all expect to
> >> replace the sensor once (whether the little light comes
on or not). If
> >> we are going to remove the sensor for testing because
we suspect it, I
> >> suggest the best thing to do is put in a new one and be
done with it.
> > Question;use a OEM Honda/Acura O2 sensor,or will a 3rd
party sensor
> > suffice? (at a lower price)
>
> Elle found a place to get OEM on-line at a nice price for
early models. I
> thought I saved the link but maybe she'll see our plight
and repost it.
https://www.automedicsupply.com/
I bought one for my 91 Civic from these folks about a
year-and-a-half ago. Good service. No problems. I think
their prices are competitive for more recent models, too.
From my reading on the net last year, people say to only buy
OEM. Aftermarket are not as reliable.
For the original poster: Check that timing! I monkeyed with
mine a bit a month ago, and I think it's why my mileage
dropped a bit below 40 mpg on the last three tanks. So darn
hard to see the timing marks lined up, especially with
middle aged eyes. Or I didn't let the car warm up enough.
12-12-2005, 12:20 AM
#44
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 93 Honda Civic Mileage gone bad
"Danny Beardsley" <dbeardsl@gmail.com> wrote
> I purchased an Ignition Coil online at
>
> http://www.thepartsbin.com/
>
> $46.50
> + Distributor O-Ring ($3)
> + some random $1 thing to push me over the $50 free
shipping mark.
After market, hmm. Let the group know how it goes. I'm
afraid the aftermarket coils I've had did not last nearly as
long as the original, OEM one.
Way to troubleshoot!
> I purchased an Ignition Coil online at
>
> http://www.thepartsbin.com/
>
> $46.50
> + Distributor O-Ring ($3)
> + some random $1 thing to push me over the $50 free
shipping mark.
After market, hmm. Let the group know how it goes. I'm
afraid the aftermarket coils I've had did not last nearly as
long as the original, OEM one.
Way to troubleshoot!
12-12-2005, 10:23 AM
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 93 Honda Civic Mileage gone bad
"Elle" <honda.lioness@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:jE7nf.2739$nm.632@newsread2.news.atl.earthlin k.net:
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote
>> > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>> >> IMHO the "sweet spot" in the car's life for replacing
> the O2 sensor is
>> >> around the half-way mark, or between 100K and 150K
> miles. I doubt many
>> >> O2 sensors last the life of good modern cars, so we can
> all expect to
>> >> replace the sensor once (whether the little light comes
> on or not). If
>> >> we are going to remove the sensor for testing because
> we suspect it, I
>> >> suggest the best thing to do is put in a new one and be
> done with it.
>
>> > Question;use a OEM Honda/Acura O2 sensor,or will a 3rd
> party sensor
>> > suffice? (at a lower price)
>
>>
>> Elle found a place to get OEM on-line at a nice price for
> early models. I
>> thought I saved the link but maybe she'll see our plight
> and repost it.
>
> https://www.automedicsupply.com/
>
> I bought one for my 91 Civic from these folks about a
> year-and-a-half ago. Good service. No problems. I think
> their prices are competitive for more recent models, too.
>
> From my reading on the net last year, people say to only buy
> OEM. Aftermarket are not as reliable.
Thanks much for the URL.
I looked,and they did not list the 94 Integra GSR motor,just the RS,LS,SE
models. I suspect the O2 sensor would be the same,though.
Also,quite a big price difference between the OEM sensors and the
universal.I guess you would have to "adapt" the wiring on the uni
sensor.(no connector match)
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
news:jE7nf.2739$nm.632@newsread2.news.atl.earthlin k.net:
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote
>> > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>> >> IMHO the "sweet spot" in the car's life for replacing
> the O2 sensor is
>> >> around the half-way mark, or between 100K and 150K
> miles. I doubt many
>> >> O2 sensors last the life of good modern cars, so we can
> all expect to
>> >> replace the sensor once (whether the little light comes
> on or not). If
>> >> we are going to remove the sensor for testing because
> we suspect it, I
>> >> suggest the best thing to do is put in a new one and be
> done with it.
>
>> > Question;use a OEM Honda/Acura O2 sensor,or will a 3rd
> party sensor
>> > suffice? (at a lower price)
>
>>
>> Elle found a place to get OEM on-line at a nice price for
> early models. I
>> thought I saved the link but maybe she'll see our plight
> and repost it.
>
> https://www.automedicsupply.com/
>
> I bought one for my 91 Civic from these folks about a
> year-and-a-half ago. Good service. No problems. I think
> their prices are competitive for more recent models, too.
>
> From my reading on the net last year, people say to only buy
> OEM. Aftermarket are not as reliable.
Thanks much for the URL.
I looked,and they did not list the 94 Integra GSR motor,just the RS,LS,SE
models. I suspect the O2 sensor would be the same,though.
Also,quite a big price difference between the OEM sensors and the
universal.I guess you would have to "adapt" the wiring on the uni
sensor.(no connector match)
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net