Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

John Horner wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>
>> double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any
>> electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without
>> it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the
>> manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere.
>
>
> Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed
> open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on
> many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop
> came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic
> converters did. Late 1970s and onward.

you're absolutely right.

>
> I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions
> for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s,
> but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily
> convert such systems to closed loop operations.
>
> John

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:49MMg.2566$xC3.1076@trnddc06:

> jim beam wrote:
>
>>
>> double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any
>> electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without
>> it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the
>> manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere.
>
>
> Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed
> open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on
> many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop
> came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic
> converters did. Late 1970s and onward.
>
> I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions
> for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s,
> but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily
> convert such systems to closed loop operations.
>
> John

Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open-
loop),long before EFI came to be.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:49MMg.2566$xC3.1076@trnddc06:

> jim beam wrote:
>
>>
>> double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any
>> electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without
>> it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the
>> manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere.
>
>
> Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed
> open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on
> many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop
> came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic
> converters did. Late 1970s and onward.
>
> I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions
> for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s,
> but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily
> convert such systems to closed loop operations.
>
> John

Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open-
loop),long before EFI came to be.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:49MMg.2566$xC3.1076@trnddc06:

> jim beam wrote:
>
>>
>> double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any
>> electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without
>> it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the
>> manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere.
>
>
> Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed
> open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on
> many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop
> came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic
> converters did. Late 1970s and onward.
>
> I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions
> for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s,
> but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily
> convert such systems to closed loop operations.
>
> John

Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open-
loop),long before EFI came to be.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote
> Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open-
> loop),long before EFI came to be.

Anyone remember the Lucas mechanical FI system? Wonderful when it worked
properly, a pig when it didn't, which was most of the time, being made by
Lucas ...

And some Peugeot 404's had a mechanical FI system too.

sd

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote
> Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open-
> loop),long before EFI came to be.

Anyone remember the Lucas mechanical FI system? Wonderful when it worked
properly, a pig when it didn't, which was most of the time, being made by
Lucas ...

And some Peugeot 404's had a mechanical FI system too.

sd

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote
> Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open-
> loop),long before EFI came to be.

Anyone remember the Lucas mechanical FI system? Wonderful when it worked
properly, a pig when it didn't, which was most of the time, being made by
Lucas ...

And some Peugeot 404's had a mechanical FI system too.

sd

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

Does it have a converter?

Al

"sharx333" <emil.santos@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1157832403.971773.202940@i3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> Hello,
>
> My 95 Civic ESi (Philippine domestic version) is similar to the U.S. EX
> version, I think. It has a PH16 engine (PGM-FI, 16Valve, 1.6Li, SOHC
> non-vtec, ECU code P27) but has no oxygen sensor. This is common
> knowledge here, and there is a plug where the sensor should be. My
> question is, is this a great disadvantage in terms of mileage? Average
> mileage for civics here is 18 to 24 MPG (~8-10km/liter).
>
> Is the ECU always running in open loop mode? Can we somehow buy an O2
> sensor and put it in, and if so, will this buy us much MPG-wise?
>
> Thanks so much in advance.
>

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

Does it have a converter?

Al

"sharx333" <emil.santos@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1157832403.971773.202940@i3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> Hello,
>
> My 95 Civic ESi (Philippine domestic version) is similar to the U.S. EX
> version, I think. It has a PH16 engine (PGM-FI, 16Valve, 1.6Li, SOHC
> non-vtec, ECU code P27) but has no oxygen sensor. This is common
> knowledge here, and there is a plug where the sensor should be. My
> question is, is this a great disadvantage in terms of mileage? Average
> mileage for civics here is 18 to 24 MPG (~8-10km/liter).
>
> Is the ECU always running in open loop mode? Can we somehow buy an O2
> sensor and put it in, and if so, will this buy us much MPG-wise?
>
> Thanks so much in advance.
>

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

Does it have a converter?

Al

"sharx333" <emil.santos@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1157832403.971773.202940@i3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> Hello,
>
> My 95 Civic ESi (Philippine domestic version) is similar to the U.S. EX
> version, I think. It has a PH16 engine (PGM-FI, 16Valve, 1.6Li, SOHC
> non-vtec, ECU code P27) but has no oxygen sensor. This is common
> knowledge here, and there is a plug where the sensor should be. My
> question is, is this a great disadvantage in terms of mileage? Average
> mileage for civics here is 18 to 24 MPG (~8-10km/liter).
>
> Is the ECU always running in open loop mode? Can we somehow buy an O2
> sensor and put it in, and if so, will this buy us much MPG-wise?
>
> Thanks so much in advance.
>

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

Stewart DIBBS wrote:
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote
>
>>Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open-
>>loop),long before EFI came to be.
>
>
> Anyone remember the Lucas mechanical FI system? Wonderful when it worked
> properly, a pig when it didn't, which was most of the time, being made by
> Lucas ...
>
> And some Peugeot 404's had a mechanical FI system too.

Look at any old diesel engine, particularly those on tractors and heavy
equipment... mechanical FI there as well.

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

Stewart DIBBS wrote:
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote
>
>>Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open-
>>loop),long before EFI came to be.
>
>
> Anyone remember the Lucas mechanical FI system? Wonderful when it worked
> properly, a pig when it didn't, which was most of the time, being made by
> Lucas ...
>
> And some Peugeot 404's had a mechanical FI system too.

Look at any old diesel engine, particularly those on tractors and heavy
equipment... mechanical FI there as well.

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

Stewart DIBBS wrote:
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote
>
>>Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open-
>>loop),long before EFI came to be.
>
>
> Anyone remember the Lucas mechanical FI system? Wonderful when it worked
> properly, a pig when it didn't, which was most of the time, being made by
> Lucas ...
>
> And some Peugeot 404's had a mechanical FI system too.

Look at any old diesel engine, particularly those on tractors and heavy
equipment... mechanical FI there as well.

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

> > Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>
> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>
> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
>
> >

Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
might it be located?

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

> > Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>
> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>
> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
>
> >

Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
might it be located?