Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

> > Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>
> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>
> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
>
> >

Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
might it be located?

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

sharx333 wrote:
>
>>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
>> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
>> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
>> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
>> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
>> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>>
>> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
>> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
>> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
>> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
>>
>
> Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
> ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
> might it be located?
>
it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat
is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat.

regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the important
bit is the sensor.

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

sharx333 wrote:
>
>>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
>> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
>> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
>> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
>> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
>> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>>
>> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
>> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
>> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
>> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
>>
>
> Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
> ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
> might it be located?
>
it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat
is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat.

regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the important
bit is the sensor.

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

sharx333 wrote:
>
>>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
>> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
>> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
>> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
>> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
>> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>>
>> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
>> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
>> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
>> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
>>
>
> Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
> ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
> might it be located?
>
it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat
is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat.

regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the important
bit is the sensor.

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

sharx333 wrote:
>
>>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
>> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
>> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
>> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
>> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
>> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>>

Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead continued
to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor contamination
issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago, but much of the rest
of the world continued to use it as an octane improver.

That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use of
TEL continued.

John

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

sharx333 wrote:
>
>>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
>> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
>> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
>> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
>> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
>> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>>

Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead continued
to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor contamination
issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago, but much of the rest
of the world continued to use it as an octane improver.

That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use of
TEL continued.

John

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

sharx333 wrote:
>
>>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
>> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
>> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
>> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
>> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
>> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>>

Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead continued
to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor contamination
issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago, but much of the rest
of the world continued to use it as an octane improver.

That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use of
TEL continued.

John

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

John Horner wrote:

> Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead continued
> to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor contamination
> issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago, but much of the rest
> of the world continued to use it as an octane improver.
>
> That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use of
> TEL continued.


That could be it! Unleaded fuel was introduced here in 1994, while the
EG line was from 1992-95. Is it true that leaded fuel could damage the
O2 sensor?

If this is the reason, and not cost-cutting, then could I simply, as
jim says, "retrofit" a sensor? (Taking care to use only unleaded fuel,
of course).

The ECU is a P27 (OBD-1 EG JDM Civic 1600 sohc VTEC) which I think is
the same as the one used in the EX US version. However this model has
no VTEC, and no O2 sensor. Could they have left the ECU "as is"?
Wouldn't Honda have used a different ECU code if it's not the same one?
I'm just hoping that it is, since it means I could just plug a new
sensor in.

I'm not after the VTEC, just want to save on gas.

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

John Horner wrote:

> Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead continued
> to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor contamination
> issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago, but much of the rest
> of the world continued to use it as an octane improver.
>
> That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use of
> TEL continued.


That could be it! Unleaded fuel was introduced here in 1994, while the
EG line was from 1992-95. Is it true that leaded fuel could damage the
O2 sensor?

If this is the reason, and not cost-cutting, then could I simply, as
jim says, "retrofit" a sensor? (Taking care to use only unleaded fuel,
of course).

The ECU is a P27 (OBD-1 EG JDM Civic 1600 sohc VTEC) which I think is
the same as the one used in the EX US version. However this model has
no VTEC, and no O2 sensor. Could they have left the ECU "as is"?
Wouldn't Honda have used a different ECU code if it's not the same one?
I'm just hoping that it is, since it means I could just plug a new
sensor in.

I'm not after the VTEC, just want to save on gas.

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

John Horner wrote:

> Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead continued
> to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor contamination
> issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago, but much of the rest
> of the world continued to use it as an octane improver.
>
> That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use of
> TEL continued.


That could be it! Unleaded fuel was introduced here in 1994, while the
EG line was from 1992-95. Is it true that leaded fuel could damage the
O2 sensor?

If this is the reason, and not cost-cutting, then could I simply, as
jim says, "retrofit" a sensor? (Taking care to use only unleaded fuel,
of course).

The ECU is a P27 (OBD-1 EG JDM Civic 1600 sohc VTEC) which I think is
the same as the one used in the EX US version. However this model has
no VTEC, and no O2 sensor. Could they have left the ECU "as is"?
Wouldn't Honda have used a different ECU code if it's not the same one?
I'm just hoping that it is, since it means I could just plug a new
sensor in.

I'm not after the VTEC, just want to save on gas.

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

sharx333 wrote:
> John Horner wrote:
>
>> Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead continued
>> to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor contamination
>> issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago, but much of the rest
>> of the world continued to use it as an octane improver.
>>
>> That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use of
>> TEL continued.
>
>
> That could be it! Unleaded fuel was introduced here in 1994, while the
> EG line was from 1992-95. Is it true that leaded fuel could damage the
> O2 sensor?
>

Absolutely. Leaded fuels also deteriorate spark plugs, but they are
readily changed. In the days when leaded fuel was the norm in the US,
typical spark plug change intervals were 12-15k miles. Now with
unleaded fuel and slightly better spark plugs the norm is 100k miles.

TEL leaves nasty deposits when it burns. These rapidly build up on
oxygen sensors and ruin it. They also build up in exhaust systems and
on exhaust valves. Oddly enough, the build-up on exhaust valves acts as
a sort of solid lubricant. When the conversion to unleaded happened in
the US, some older cars had very rapid exhaust valve seat wear due to
the lack of TEL's valve lubricating side effect. Other than for exhaust
valves, everything else about TEL fuel is a downside for the motor!


> If this is the reason, and not cost-cutting, then could I simply, as
> jim says, "retrofit" a sensor? (Taking care to use only unleaded fuel,
> of course).


You would need someone who really knows the Honda fuel injection system
in detail to answer that. Perhaps you can get your hands on a parts
manual for your version and the US version and try to compare what is
different from one to the other. Maybe it is as simple as connecting an
O2 sensor, maybe not. The US version is certainly capable of running
open loop in the case of a failed O2 sensor.

Do you have any friends in Honda's engineering department :) ??????

John

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

sharx333 wrote:
> John Horner wrote:
>
>> Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead continued
>> to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor contamination
>> issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago, but much of the rest
>> of the world continued to use it as an octane improver.
>>
>> That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use of
>> TEL continued.
>
>
> That could be it! Unleaded fuel was introduced here in 1994, while the
> EG line was from 1992-95. Is it true that leaded fuel could damage the
> O2 sensor?
>

Absolutely. Leaded fuels also deteriorate spark plugs, but they are
readily changed. In the days when leaded fuel was the norm in the US,
typical spark plug change intervals were 12-15k miles. Now with
unleaded fuel and slightly better spark plugs the norm is 100k miles.

TEL leaves nasty deposits when it burns. These rapidly build up on
oxygen sensors and ruin it. They also build up in exhaust systems and
on exhaust valves. Oddly enough, the build-up on exhaust valves acts as
a sort of solid lubricant. When the conversion to unleaded happened in
the US, some older cars had very rapid exhaust valve seat wear due to
the lack of TEL's valve lubricating side effect. Other than for exhaust
valves, everything else about TEL fuel is a downside for the motor!


> If this is the reason, and not cost-cutting, then could I simply, as
> jim says, "retrofit" a sensor? (Taking care to use only unleaded fuel,
> of course).


You would need someone who really knows the Honda fuel injection system
in detail to answer that. Perhaps you can get your hands on a parts
manual for your version and the US version and try to compare what is
different from one to the other. Maybe it is as simple as connecting an
O2 sensor, maybe not. The US version is certainly capable of running
open loop in the case of a failed O2 sensor.

Do you have any friends in Honda's engineering department :) ??????

John

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

sharx333 wrote:
> John Horner wrote:
>
>> Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead continued
>> to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor contamination
>> issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago, but much of the rest
>> of the world continued to use it as an octane improver.
>>
>> That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use of
>> TEL continued.
>
>
> That could be it! Unleaded fuel was introduced here in 1994, while the
> EG line was from 1992-95. Is it true that leaded fuel could damage the
> O2 sensor?
>

Absolutely. Leaded fuels also deteriorate spark plugs, but they are
readily changed. In the days when leaded fuel was the norm in the US,
typical spark plug change intervals were 12-15k miles. Now with
unleaded fuel and slightly better spark plugs the norm is 100k miles.

TEL leaves nasty deposits when it burns. These rapidly build up on
oxygen sensors and ruin it. They also build up in exhaust systems and
on exhaust valves. Oddly enough, the build-up on exhaust valves acts as
a sort of solid lubricant. When the conversion to unleaded happened in
the US, some older cars had very rapid exhaust valve seat wear due to
the lack of TEL's valve lubricating side effect. Other than for exhaust
valves, everything else about TEL fuel is a downside for the motor!


> If this is the reason, and not cost-cutting, then could I simply, as
> jim says, "retrofit" a sensor? (Taking care to use only unleaded fuel,
> of course).


You would need someone who really knows the Honda fuel injection system
in detail to answer that. Perhaps you can get your hands on a parts
manual for your version and the US version and try to compare what is
different from one to the other. Maybe it is as simple as connecting an
O2 sensor, maybe not. The US version is certainly capable of running
open loop in the case of a failed O2 sensor.

Do you have any friends in Honda's engineering department :) ??????

John

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:alpNg.1569$FS.37@trnddc04:

> sharx333 wrote:
>> John Horner wrote:
>>
>>> Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead
>>> continued to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor
>>> contamination issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago,
>>> but much of the rest of the world continued to use it as an octane
>>> improver.
>>>
>>> That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use
>>> of TEL continued.
>>
>>
>> That could be it! Unleaded fuel was introduced here in 1994, while
>> the EG line was from 1992-95. Is it true that leaded fuel could
>> damage the O2 sensor?
>>
>
> Absolutely. Leaded fuels also deteriorate spark plugs, but they are
> readily changed. In the days when leaded fuel was the norm in the US,
> typical spark plug change intervals were 12-15k miles. Now with
> unleaded fuel and slightly better spark plugs the norm is 100k miles.
>
> TEL leaves nasty deposits when it burns. These rapidly build up on
> oxygen sensors and ruin it. They also build up in exhaust systems and
> on exhaust valves. Oddly enough, the build-up on exhaust valves acts
> as a sort of solid lubricant. When the conversion to unleaded
> happened in the US, some older cars had very rapid exhaust valve seat
> wear due to the lack of TEL's valve lubricating side effect. Other
> than for exhaust valves, everything else about TEL fuel is a downside
> for the motor!
>
>
>> If this is the reason, and not cost-cutting, then could I simply, as
>> jim says, "retrofit" a sensor? (Taking care to use only unleaded
>> fuel, of course).
>
>
> You would need someone who really knows the Honda fuel injection
> system in detail to answer that. Perhaps you can get your hands on a
> parts manual for your version and the US version and try to compare
> what is different from one to the other. Maybe it is as simple as
> connecting an O2 sensor, maybe not. The US version is certainly
> capable of running open loop in the case of a failed O2 sensor.
>
> Do you have any friends in Honda's engineering department :) ??????
>
> John
>
>

I believe the ECU would be a different model than a US OBD-I ECU,as a US
ECU will set a code and light the check engine light if the O2 sensor
fails. "not present" counts as "failed".(open)
The Euro ECU's program would have to know to ignore the missing sensor,thus
a different ECU. ECU programming is fixed in PROM,thus a different PROM,and
a different ECU p/n.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
 

John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:alpNg.1569$FS.37@trnddc04:

> sharx333 wrote:
>> John Horner wrote:
>>
>>> Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead
>>> continued to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor
>>> contamination issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago,
>>> but much of the rest of the world continued to use it as an octane
>>> improver.
>>>
>>> That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use
>>> of TEL continued.
>>
>>
>> That could be it! Unleaded fuel was introduced here in 1994, while
>> the EG line was from 1992-95. Is it true that leaded fuel could
>> damage the O2 sensor?
>>
>
> Absolutely. Leaded fuels also deteriorate spark plugs, but they are
> readily changed. In the days when leaded fuel was the norm in the US,
> typical spark plug change intervals were 12-15k miles. Now with
> unleaded fuel and slightly better spark plugs the norm is 100k miles.
>
> TEL leaves nasty deposits when it burns. These rapidly build up on
> oxygen sensors and ruin it. They also build up in exhaust systems and
> on exhaust valves. Oddly enough, the build-up on exhaust valves acts
> as a sort of solid lubricant. When the conversion to unleaded
> happened in the US, some older cars had very rapid exhaust valve seat
> wear due to the lack of TEL's valve lubricating side effect. Other
> than for exhaust valves, everything else about TEL fuel is a downside
> for the motor!
>
>
>> If this is the reason, and not cost-cutting, then could I simply, as
>> jim says, "retrofit" a sensor? (Taking care to use only unleaded
>> fuel, of course).
>
>
> You would need someone who really knows the Honda fuel injection
> system in detail to answer that. Perhaps you can get your hands on a
> parts manual for your version and the US version and try to compare
> what is different from one to the other. Maybe it is as simple as
> connecting an O2 sensor, maybe not. The US version is certainly
> capable of running open loop in the case of a failed O2 sensor.
>
> Do you have any friends in Honda's engineering department :) ??????
>
> John
>
>

I believe the ECU would be a different model than a US OBD-I ECU,as a US
ECU will set a code and light the check engine light if the O2 sensor
fails. "not present" counts as "failed".(open)
The Euro ECU's program would have to know to ignore the missing sensor,thus
a different ECU. ECU programming is fixed in PROM,thus a different PROM,and
a different ECU p/n.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net