Re: Additives worth the price?
 

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:17:28 GMT, John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>>>If you stick with major brand fuels you are probably never going to have
>>>a fuel related problem.
>>
>> And it says this in writing I can take to Honda when the engine
>> expires---where???
>
>Uh, why exactly did you post your question on usenet? Did you want
>honest opinion, or do you just want to think like a lawyer and wring
>your virtual hands?
I value any opinion.
So, I just got off the phone with American Honda customer service in
L.A. Recognizing that this young lady had to get up at 4 a.m. to get
to work so they could open their lines at 6 a.m. L.A. time, so that
they could talk to us on the east Coast, I am going to attempt to
reflect she said:
The list of fuel providers as reflected in the sites I cited in my
first post is correct. There are no additions.
If using something else, one cannot expect as good gas mileage, and
prolonged use of non list refiners "could damage the engine"
Her recommendation was to follow the list, and that if I had to go
with a non-listed provider, to shift back to a listed provider as soon
as possible.
So, all you folks with 2006 Civics (and others listed by Honda) plus
BMW, GM and Honda, this is another opinion - and in the case of Honda,
the corporate opinion.

Re: Additives worth the price?
 

Roy Starrin wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:17:28 GMT, John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>>>If you stick with major brand fuels you are probably never going to have
>>>>a fuel related problem.
>>>
>>>And it says this in writing I can take to Honda when the engine
>>>expires---where???
>>
>>Uh, why exactly did you post your question on usenet? Did you want
>>honest opinion, or do you just want to think like a lawyer and wring
>>your virtual hands?
>
> I value any opinion.
> So, I just got off the phone with American Honda customer service in
> L.A. Recognizing that this young lady had to get up at 4 a.m. to get
> to work so they could open their lines at 6 a.m. L.A. time, so that
> they could talk to us on the east Coast, I am going to attempt to
> reflect she said:
> The list of fuel providers as reflected in the sites I cited in my
> first post is correct. There are no additions.
> If using something else, one cannot expect as good gas mileage, and
> prolonged use of non list refiners "could damage the engine"
> Her recommendation was to follow the list, and that if I had to go
> with a non-listed provider, to shift back to a listed provider as soon
> as possible.
> So, all you folks with 2006 Civics (and others listed by Honda) plus
> BMW, GM and Honda, this is another opinion - and in the case of Honda,
> the corporate opinion.
>
>
this whole question fascinates me. some people have great difficulty
believing that there's differences between gasoline brands. often the
"they all come from the same refinery" argument is used in defense of
this position, and it's often true, many /do/ come from the same
refinery. but they're /not/ all the same.

people have no difficulty believing that beers are different, mainly
because they can rely on their own sense of taste to do the analysis,
even though many come from the same brewery. similarly, products like
paint are easily distinguishable, even though a lot of major brands come
from the same factory. it's the same with gasoline. formulations are
complex and very carefully controlled between brands, as you might
suspect if you consider that there's billions of dollars at stake. they
smell different, the perform different, and less obviously, their
chemical properties are different. there's minimum standards to which
gasolines have to conform [calorie content sadly /not/ on the list] but
beyond that, there's significant scope for variance.

Re: Additives worth the price?
 

Roy Starrin wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:17:28 GMT, John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>>>If you stick with major brand fuels you are probably never going to have
>>>>a fuel related problem.
>>>
>>>And it says this in writing I can take to Honda when the engine
>>>expires---where???
>>
>>Uh, why exactly did you post your question on usenet? Did you want
>>honest opinion, or do you just want to think like a lawyer and wring
>>your virtual hands?
>
> I value any opinion.
> So, I just got off the phone with American Honda customer service in
> L.A. Recognizing that this young lady had to get up at 4 a.m. to get
> to work so they could open their lines at 6 a.m. L.A. time, so that
> they could talk to us on the east Coast, I am going to attempt to
> reflect she said:
> The list of fuel providers as reflected in the sites I cited in my
> first post is correct. There are no additions.
> If using something else, one cannot expect as good gas mileage, and
> prolonged use of non list refiners "could damage the engine"
> Her recommendation was to follow the list, and that if I had to go
> with a non-listed provider, to shift back to a listed provider as soon
> as possible.
> So, all you folks with 2006 Civics (and others listed by Honda) plus
> BMW, GM and Honda, this is another opinion - and in the case of Honda,
> the corporate opinion.
>
>
this whole question fascinates me. some people have great difficulty
believing that there's differences between gasoline brands. often the
"they all come from the same refinery" argument is used in defense of
this position, and it's often true, many /do/ come from the same
refinery. but they're /not/ all the same.

people have no difficulty believing that beers are different, mainly
because they can rely on their own sense of taste to do the analysis,
even though many come from the same brewery. similarly, products like
paint are easily distinguishable, even though a lot of major brands come
from the same factory. it's the same with gasoline. formulations are
complex and very carefully controlled between brands, as you might
suspect if you consider that there's billions of dollars at stake. they
smell different, the perform different, and less obviously, their
chemical properties are different. there's minimum standards to which
gasolines have to conform [calorie content sadly /not/ on the list] but
beyond that, there's significant scope for variance.

Re: Additives worth the price?
 

Roy Starrin wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:17:28 GMT, John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>>>If you stick with major brand fuels you are probably never going to have
>>>>a fuel related problem.
>>>
>>>And it says this in writing I can take to Honda when the engine
>>>expires---where???
>>
>>Uh, why exactly did you post your question on usenet? Did you want
>>honest opinion, or do you just want to think like a lawyer and wring
>>your virtual hands?
>
> I value any opinion.
> So, I just got off the phone with American Honda customer service in
> L.A. Recognizing that this young lady had to get up at 4 a.m. to get
> to work so they could open their lines at 6 a.m. L.A. time, so that
> they could talk to us on the east Coast, I am going to attempt to
> reflect she said:
> The list of fuel providers as reflected in the sites I cited in my
> first post is correct. There are no additions.
> If using something else, one cannot expect as good gas mileage, and
> prolonged use of non list refiners "could damage the engine"
> Her recommendation was to follow the list, and that if I had to go
> with a non-listed provider, to shift back to a listed provider as soon
> as possible.
> So, all you folks with 2006 Civics (and others listed by Honda) plus
> BMW, GM and Honda, this is another opinion - and in the case of Honda,
> the corporate opinion.
>
>
this whole question fascinates me. some people have great difficulty
believing that there's differences between gasoline brands. often the
"they all come from the same refinery" argument is used in defense of
this position, and it's often true, many /do/ come from the same
refinery. but they're /not/ all the same.

people have no difficulty believing that beers are different, mainly
because they can rely on their own sense of taste to do the analysis,
even though many come from the same brewery. similarly, products like
paint are easily distinguishable, even though a lot of major brands come
from the same factory. it's the same with gasoline. formulations are
complex and very carefully controlled between brands, as you might
suspect if you consider that there's billions of dollars at stake. they
smell different, the perform different, and less obviously, their
chemical properties are different. there's minimum standards to which
gasolines have to conform [calorie content sadly /not/ on the list] but
beyond that, there's significant scope for variance.

Re: Additives worth the price?
 

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:26:47 -0700, jim beam <nospam@example.net>
wrote:


>> The list of fuel providers as reflected in the sites I cited in my
>> first post is correct. There are no additions.
>> If using something else, one cannot expect as good gas mileage, and
>> prolonged use of non list refiners "could damage the engine"
>> Her recommendation was to follow the list, and that if I had to go
>> with a non-listed provider, to shift back to a listed provider as soon
>> as possible.
>> So, all you folks with 2006 Civics (and others listed by Honda) plus
>> BMW, GM and Toyota, this is another opinion - and in the case of Honda,
>> the corporate opinion.
>>
>>
>this whole question fascinates me. some people have great difficulty
>believing that there's differences between gasoline brands. often the
>"they all come from the same refinery" argument is used in defense of
>this position, and it's often true, many /do/ come from the same
>refinery. but they're /not/ all the same.

Not me. Nearly 50 years ago when I bought my first MGA, I could see
the RPM difference - Shell always made for a higher RPM. Loved the
beer analogy - Went to school in Milwaukee, surrounded by Millers,
Pabst, Schlitz and Blatz.

>... it's the same with gasoline. formulations are
>complex and very carefully controlled between brands, as you might
>suspect if you consider that there's billions of dollars at stake.

Maybe it's the journalist in me, for it's that aspect of the issue
that gets to me - the "billions of dollars" part. Especially when we
read in the article at the cited site:
"Left out of the Top Tier alliance, Ford has taken the unprecedented
step of recommending a specific gasoline brand. Starting with 2006
models, Ford vehicles have "Ford Recommends BP" printed on its gas
cap..."
Sounds more like a you-scratch-my-back type alliance, than a
best-gas-for-the-car alliance.
Anyhow, the Texaco station on a nearby corner just converted to Shell.
I guess they knew I was coming.

Re: Additives worth the price?
 

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:26:47 -0700, jim beam <nospam@example.net>
wrote:


>> The list of fuel providers as reflected in the sites I cited in my
>> first post is correct. There are no additions.
>> If using something else, one cannot expect as good gas mileage, and
>> prolonged use of non list refiners "could damage the engine"
>> Her recommendation was to follow the list, and that if I had to go
>> with a non-listed provider, to shift back to a listed provider as soon
>> as possible.
>> So, all you folks with 2006 Civics (and others listed by Honda) plus
>> BMW, GM and Toyota, this is another opinion - and in the case of Honda,
>> the corporate opinion.
>>
>>
>this whole question fascinates me. some people have great difficulty
>believing that there's differences between gasoline brands. often the
>"they all come from the same refinery" argument is used in defense of
>this position, and it's often true, many /do/ come from the same
>refinery. but they're /not/ all the same.

Not me. Nearly 50 years ago when I bought my first MGA, I could see
the RPM difference - Shell always made for a higher RPM. Loved the
beer analogy - Went to school in Milwaukee, surrounded by Millers,
Pabst, Schlitz and Blatz.

>... it's the same with gasoline. formulations are
>complex and very carefully controlled between brands, as you might
>suspect if you consider that there's billions of dollars at stake.

Maybe it's the journalist in me, for it's that aspect of the issue
that gets to me - the "billions of dollars" part. Especially when we
read in the article at the cited site:
"Left out of the Top Tier alliance, Ford has taken the unprecedented
step of recommending a specific gasoline brand. Starting with 2006
models, Ford vehicles have "Ford Recommends BP" printed on its gas
cap..."
Sounds more like a you-scratch-my-back type alliance, than a
best-gas-for-the-car alliance.
Anyhow, the Texaco station on a nearby corner just converted to Shell.
I guess they knew I was coming.

Re: Additives worth the price?
 

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:26:47 -0700, jim beam <nospam@example.net>
wrote:


>> The list of fuel providers as reflected in the sites I cited in my
>> first post is correct. There are no additions.
>> If using something else, one cannot expect as good gas mileage, and
>> prolonged use of non list refiners "could damage the engine"
>> Her recommendation was to follow the list, and that if I had to go
>> with a non-listed provider, to shift back to a listed provider as soon
>> as possible.
>> So, all you folks with 2006 Civics (and others listed by Honda) plus
>> BMW, GM and Toyota, this is another opinion - and in the case of Honda,
>> the corporate opinion.
>>
>>
>this whole question fascinates me. some people have great difficulty
>believing that there's differences between gasoline brands. often the
>"they all come from the same refinery" argument is used in defense of
>this position, and it's often true, many /do/ come from the same
>refinery. but they're /not/ all the same.

Not me. Nearly 50 years ago when I bought my first MGA, I could see
the RPM difference - Shell always made for a higher RPM. Loved the
beer analogy - Went to school in Milwaukee, surrounded by Millers,
Pabst, Schlitz and Blatz.

>... it's the same with gasoline. formulations are
>complex and very carefully controlled between brands, as you might
>suspect if you consider that there's billions of dollars at stake.

Maybe it's the journalist in me, for it's that aspect of the issue
that gets to me - the "billions of dollars" part. Especially when we
read in the article at the cited site:
"Left out of the Top Tier alliance, Ford has taken the unprecedented
step of recommending a specific gasoline brand. Starting with 2006
models, Ford vehicles have "Ford Recommends BP" printed on its gas
cap..."
Sounds more like a you-scratch-my-back type alliance, than a
best-gas-for-the-car alliance.
Anyhow, the Texaco station on a nearby corner just converted to Shell.
I guess they knew I was coming.

Re: Additives worth the price?
 

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:26:47 -0700, jim beam <nospam@example.net>
wrote:


>> The list of fuel providers as reflected in the sites I cited in my
>> first post is correct. There are no additions.
>> If using something else, one cannot expect as good gas mileage, and
>> prolonged use of non list refiners "could damage the engine"
>> Her recommendation was to follow the list, and that if I had to go
>> with a non-listed provider, to shift back to a listed provider as soon
>> as possible.
>> So, all you folks with 2006 Civics (and others listed by Honda) plus
>> BMW, GM and Toyota, this is another opinion - and in the case of Honda,
>> the corporate opinion.
>>
>>
>this whole question fascinates me. some people have great difficulty
>believing that there's differences between gasoline brands. often the
>"they all come from the same refinery" argument is used in defense of
>this position, and it's often true, many /do/ come from the same
>refinery. but they're /not/ all the same.

Not me. Nearly 50 years ago when I bought my first MGA, I could see
the RPM difference - Shell always made for a higher RPM. Loved the
beer analogy - Went to school in Milwaukee, surrounded by Millers,
Pabst, Schlitz and Blatz.

>... it's the same with gasoline. formulations are
>complex and very carefully controlled between brands, as you might
>suspect if you consider that there's billions of dollars at stake.

Maybe it's the journalist in me, for it's that aspect of the issue
that gets to me - the "billions of dollars" part. Especially when we
read in the article at the cited site:
"Left out of the Top Tier alliance, Ford has taken the unprecedented
step of recommending a specific gasoline brand. Starting with 2006
models, Ford vehicles have "Ford Recommends BP" printed on its gas
cap..."
Sounds more like a you-scratch-my-back type alliance, than a
best-gas-for-the-car alliance.
Anyhow, the Texaco station on a nearby corner just converted to Shell.
I guess they knew I was coming.

Re: Additives worth the price?
 

Roy Starrin wrote:

> Maybe it's the journalist in me, for it's that aspect of the issue
> that gets to me - the "billions of dollars" part. Especially when we
> read in the article at the cited site:
> "Left out of the Top Tier alliance, Ford has taken the unprecedented
> step of recommending a specific gasoline brand. Starting with 2006
> models, Ford vehicles have "Ford Recommends BP" printed on its gas
> cap..."
> Sounds more like a you-scratch-my-back type alliance, than a
> best-gas-for-the-car alliance.
> Anyhow, the Texaco station on a nearby corner just converted to Shell.
> I guess they knew I was coming.

These recommendations usually have everything to do with marketing
dollars. Several vehicle carry recommendations to use Mobil-1 oil.
Does that mean that Mobil-1 is superior to all other synthetic oils? Of
course not. It only means that the two companies have struck a deal.

John

Re: Additives worth the price?
 

Roy Starrin wrote:

> Maybe it's the journalist in me, for it's that aspect of the issue
> that gets to me - the "billions of dollars" part. Especially when we
> read in the article at the cited site:
> "Left out of the Top Tier alliance, Ford has taken the unprecedented
> step of recommending a specific gasoline brand. Starting with 2006
> models, Ford vehicles have "Ford Recommends BP" printed on its gas
> cap..."
> Sounds more like a you-scratch-my-back type alliance, than a
> best-gas-for-the-car alliance.
> Anyhow, the Texaco station on a nearby corner just converted to Shell.
> I guess they knew I was coming.

These recommendations usually have everything to do with marketing
dollars. Several vehicle carry recommendations to use Mobil-1 oil.
Does that mean that Mobil-1 is superior to all other synthetic oils? Of
course not. It only means that the two companies have struck a deal.

John

Re: Additives worth the price?
 

Roy Starrin wrote:

> Maybe it's the journalist in me, for it's that aspect of the issue
> that gets to me - the "billions of dollars" part. Especially when we
> read in the article at the cited site:
> "Left out of the Top Tier alliance, Ford has taken the unprecedented
> step of recommending a specific gasoline brand. Starting with 2006
> models, Ford vehicles have "Ford Recommends BP" printed on its gas
> cap..."
> Sounds more like a you-scratch-my-back type alliance, than a
> best-gas-for-the-car alliance.
> Anyhow, the Texaco station on a nearby corner just converted to Shell.
> I guess they knew I was coming.

These recommendations usually have everything to do with marketing
dollars. Several vehicle carry recommendations to use Mobil-1 oil.
Does that mean that Mobil-1 is superior to all other synthetic oils? Of
course not. It only means that the two companies have struck a deal.

John

Re: Additives worth the price?
 

Roy Starrin wrote:

> Maybe it's the journalist in me, for it's that aspect of the issue
> that gets to me - the "billions of dollars" part. Especially when we
> read in the article at the cited site:
> "Left out of the Top Tier alliance, Ford has taken the unprecedented
> step of recommending a specific gasoline brand. Starting with 2006
> models, Ford vehicles have "Ford Recommends BP" printed on its gas
> cap..."
> Sounds more like a you-scratch-my-back type alliance, than a
> best-gas-for-the-car alliance.
> Anyhow, the Texaco station on a nearby corner just converted to Shell.
> I guess they knew I was coming.

These recommendations usually have everything to do with marketing
dollars. Several vehicle carry recommendations to use Mobil-1 oil.
Does that mean that Mobil-1 is superior to all other synthetic oils? Of
course not. It only means that the two companies have struck a deal.

John

Re: Additives worth the price?
 

In article <d582a29ajr7im067gj8hvjvluc6evmb9cr@4ax.com>,
Roy Starrin <starrin@verizon.net> wrote:

> That takes me to my prime question since I bought my new Civic last
> week (and gave the '88 to charity). What the hell is MMT and top tier
> gas?

MMT is methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl, a gasoline additive
made by the Ethyl Corporation. Ethyl is the bunch that brought you
tetraethyl lead.

The fear is that MMT, which contains manganese, will cause central
nervous system damage to people who live in densely-populated areas.

Top Tier Detergent Gasoline is a set of standards created by a
consortium of automakers--BMW, GM, Honda and Toyota--for high-quality
detergent gas. The only problem I've got with this is that none of the
gas companies on the list at http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html,
except for Shell, sell gas in Cumberland County, NC.

Oh...to answer the OP...except in very extreme circumstances, like when
you've been running stale gas and now your injectors are partially
clogged, additives don't do much for you.

--jm

Re: Additives worth the price?
 

In article <d582a29ajr7im067gj8hvjvluc6evmb9cr@4ax.com>,
Roy Starrin <starrin@verizon.net> wrote:

> That takes me to my prime question since I bought my new Civic last
> week (and gave the '88 to charity). What the hell is MMT and top tier
> gas?

MMT is methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl, a gasoline additive
made by the Ethyl Corporation. Ethyl is the bunch that brought you
tetraethyl lead.

The fear is that MMT, which contains manganese, will cause central
nervous system damage to people who live in densely-populated areas.

Top Tier Detergent Gasoline is a set of standards created by a
consortium of automakers--BMW, GM, Honda and Toyota--for high-quality
detergent gas. The only problem I've got with this is that none of the
gas companies on the list at http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html,
except for Shell, sell gas in Cumberland County, NC.

Oh...to answer the OP...except in very extreme circumstances, like when
you've been running stale gas and now your injectors are partially
clogged, additives don't do much for you.

--jm

Re: Additives worth the price?
 

In article <d582a29ajr7im067gj8hvjvluc6evmb9cr@4ax.com>,
Roy Starrin <starrin@verizon.net> wrote:

> That takes me to my prime question since I bought my new Civic last
> week (and gave the '88 to charity). What the hell is MMT and top tier
> gas?

MMT is methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl, a gasoline additive
made by the Ethyl Corporation. Ethyl is the bunch that brought you
tetraethyl lead.

The fear is that MMT, which contains manganese, will cause central
nervous system damage to people who live in densely-populated areas.

Top Tier Detergent Gasoline is a set of standards created by a
consortium of automakers--BMW, GM, Honda and Toyota--for high-quality
detergent gas. The only problem I've got with this is that none of the
gas companies on the list at http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html,
except for Shell, sell gas in Cumberland County, NC.

Oh...to answer the OP...except in very extreme circumstances, like when
you've been running stale gas and now your injectors are partially
clogged, additives don't do much for you.

--jm