Annoying intermittant power loss
 

Okay, this is really starting to bug me... this is the third '87 Accord
in a row now that's had this problem (all carbed, first had A/C and P/S,
second P/S and non-working A/C, latest has neither.

My first one was running great, really peppy, until I had a "fuel system
service" done, and after that it seemed sluggish. Both of the
subsequent cars have had the same issue: sometimes they're just
"oomph-less" - bog down off the line, punching the gas accelerates only
slowly, and pushing the clutch in for an upshift results in an immediate
feeling of deceleration, almost as if something was dragging.

And then for no apparent reason, often after idling for a couple
minutes, like at a long stop light, the power is just there - sharp off
the line, hitting the gas at cruise puts you back in the seat at just
about any speed/RPM, and it keeps coasting smoothly when the clutch is
lowered.

I'd almost suspect a fuel delivery or ignition timing issue if it
weren't for that "dragging" issue. I don't think it's the brakes; if
they were sticking that badly they should be heating up as well, and
they're not.

Anyone got any thoughts?


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Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

I suggest you reconsider dismissing your idea of dragging brakes.
Sounds right to me. Next time this phenomenon occurs... I would wait
until it happens several times and then pull over... and go around and
feel all four brake rotors. Obviously you'd be looking for one (or
more) that is hotter than the others. You certainly could have a
caliper that is not releasing properly. I have seen this happen
intermittently on more than several occations. Just a thought...

Professor
www.telstar-electronics.com

Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
news:dePBf.444555$ki.201021@pd7tw2no...
> Okay, this is really starting to bug me... this is the third '87 Accord
> in a row now that's had this problem (all carbed, first had A/C and P/S,
> second P/S and non-working A/C, latest has neither.
>
> My first one was running great, really peppy, until I had a "fuel system
> service" done, and after that it seemed sluggish. Both of the
> subsequent cars have had the same issue: sometimes they're just
> "oomph-less" - bog down off the line, punching the gas accelerates only
> slowly, and pushing the clutch in for an upshift results in an immediate
> feeling of deceleration, almost as if something was dragging.
>
> And then for no apparent reason, often after idling for a couple
> minutes, like at a long stop light, the power is just there - sharp off
> the line, hitting the gas at cruise puts you back in the seat at just
> about any speed/RPM, and it keeps coasting smoothly when the clutch is
> lowered.
>
> I'd almost suspect a fuel delivery or ignition timing issue if it
> weren't for that "dragging" issue. I don't think it's the brakes; if
> they were sticking that badly they should be heating up as well, and
> they're not.
>
> Anyone got any thoughts?
>
>
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> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
Had a sluggish loss in power and loss of fire problem. All would be well
after a restart. Problem turned out to be an intermittently clogged (nut &
bolt catcher) screen at the fuel pump (tank) inlet. Replacing the
pump/screen--all one unit at the time, fixed the problem.
MLD

Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

MLD wrote:
> "Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
> news:dePBf.444555$ki.201021@pd7tw2no...
>
>>Okay, this is really starting to bug me... this is the third '87 Accord
>>in a row now that's had this problem (all carbed, first had A/C and P/S,
>>second P/S and non-working A/C, latest has neither.
>>
>>My first one was running great, really peppy, until I had a "fuel system
>>service" done, and after that it seemed sluggish. Both of the
>>subsequent cars have had the same issue: sometimes they're just
>>"oomph-less" - bog down off the line, punching the gas accelerates only
>>slowly, and pushing the clutch in for an upshift results in an immediate
>>feeling of deceleration, almost as if something was dragging.
>>
>>And then for no apparent reason, often after idling for a couple
>>minutes, like at a long stop light, the power is just there - sharp off
>>the line, hitting the gas at cruise puts you back in the seat at just
>>about any speed/RPM, and it keeps coasting smoothly when the clutch is
>>lowered.
>>
>>I'd almost suspect a fuel delivery or ignition timing issue if it
>>weren't for that "dragging" issue. I don't think it's the brakes; if
>>they were sticking that badly they should be heating up as well, and
>>they're not.
>>
>>Anyone got any thoughts?
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
> Had a sluggish loss in power and loss of fire problem. All would be well
> after a restart. Problem turned out to be an intermittently clogged (nut &
> bolt catcher) screen at the fuel pump (tank) inlet. Replacing the
> pump/screen--all one unit at the time, fixed the problem.
> MLD

Yeah, but on three different cars?

Besides, being carbed, a clogged intake filter shouldn't affect it in
this way. In normal running it feeds off the float bowl; performance
doesn't rely on constant pressure.


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Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

Professor wrote:
> I suggest you reconsider dismissing your idea of dragging brakes.
> Sounds right to me. Next time this phenomenon occurs... I would wait
> until it happens several times and then pull over... and go around and
> feel all four brake rotors. Obviously you'd be looking for one (or
> more) that is hotter than the others. You certainly could have a
> caliper that is not releasing properly. I have seen this happen
> intermittently on more than several occations. Just a thought...

Well... or sticky shoes on the back (drum brakes). I guess ideally I
need to whip the thing up on a jack and make sure everything spins freely.


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Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
news:epUBf.220802$tl.14061@pd7tw3no...
> MLD wrote:
> > "Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
> > news:dePBf.444555$ki.201021@pd7tw2no...
> >
> >>Okay, this is really starting to bug me... this is the third '87 Accord
> >>in a row now that's had this problem (all carbed, first had A/C and P/S,
> >>second P/S and non-working A/C, latest has neither.
> >>
> >>My first one was running great, really peppy, until I had a "fuel system
> >>service" done, and after that it seemed sluggish. Both of the
> >>subsequent cars have had the same issue: sometimes they're just
> >>"oomph-less" - bog down off the line, punching the gas accelerates only
> >>slowly, and pushing the clutch in for an upshift results in an immediate
> >>feeling of deceleration, almost as if something was dragging.
> >>
> >>And then for no apparent reason, often after idling for a couple
> >>minutes, like at a long stop light, the power is just there - sharp off
> >>the line, hitting the gas at cruise puts you back in the seat at just
> >>about any speed/RPM, and it keeps coasting smoothly when the clutch is
> >>lowered.
> >>
> >>I'd almost suspect a fuel delivery or ignition timing issue if it
> >>weren't for that "dragging" issue. I don't think it's the brakes; if
> >>they were sticking that badly they should be heating up as well, and
> >>they're not.
> >>
> >>Anyone got any thoughts?
> >>
> >>
> >>---
> >>avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
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> >>avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
> >>http://www.avast.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Had a sluggish loss in power and loss of fire problem. All would be
well
> > after a restart. Problem turned out to be an intermittently clogged
(nut &
> > bolt catcher) screen at the fuel pump (tank) inlet. Replacing the
> > pump/screen--all one unit at the time, fixed the problem.
> > MLD
>
> Yeah, but on three different cars?
>
> Besides, being carbed, a clogged intake filter shouldn't affect it in
> this way. In normal running it feeds off the float bowl; performance
> doesn't rely on constant pressure.
>

I agree that to happen on three (of your) cars seems unlikely and
unusual--having said that "why do you think that auto companies have
recalls? If you have a design problem eventually it will begins to show up
in the field. In my case (and maybe or maybe not) your case it takes a long
time for a screen to rust and clog to the point where it can intermittently
effect fuel flow. If you saw what came out of my gas tank you wouldn't
believe that it was a fuel filter. Have you considered looking at and/or
changing the fuel filter that feeds the carb in the engine compartment?
With respect to your comment re-fuel bowl---- if it is a fuel delivery
problem maybe the float bowl is not getting filled with fuel, runs dry and
when stopped has a chance to refill?
Just throwing out some comments--
MLD

Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

Matt
Had a similar problem with an '85 carburated, so here is one more
idea(long-shot).
Is there(or should be) a snorkel hose from the exahust manifold to the
air cleaner in the '87?.
If so make sure it's intact and in place, and that the blend air door
in the air cleaner operates. in the '85 I had, the linkage form the
blend door vacuum motor to the door got disconnected resulting in loss
of power especially on humid days.

Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

MLD wrote:
> "Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
> news:epUBf.220802$tl.14061@pd7tw3no...
>
>>MLD wrote:
>>
>>>"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
>>>news:dePBf.444555$ki.201021@pd7tw2no...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Okay, this is really starting to bug me... this is the third '87 Accord
>>>>in a row now that's had this problem (all carbed, first had A/C and P/S,
>>>>second P/S and non-working A/C, latest has neither.
>>>>
>>>>My first one was running great, really peppy, until I had a "fuel system
>>>>service" done, and after that it seemed sluggish. Both of the
>>>>subsequent cars have had the same issue: sometimes they're just
>>>>"oomph-less" - bog down off the line, punching the gas accelerates only
>>>>slowly, and pushing the clutch in for an upshift results in an immediate
>>>>feeling of deceleration, almost as if something was dragging.
>>>>
>>>>And then for no apparent reason, often after idling for a couple
>>>>minutes, like at a long stop light, the power is just there - sharp off
>>>>the line, hitting the gas at cruise puts you back in the seat at just
>>>>about any speed/RPM, and it keeps coasting smoothly when the clutch is
>>>>lowered.
>>>>
>>>>I'd almost suspect a fuel delivery or ignition timing issue if it
>>>>weren't for that "dragging" issue. I don't think it's the brakes; if
>>>>they were sticking that badly they should be heating up as well, and
>>>>they're not.
>>>>
>>>>Anyone got any thoughts?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>---
>>>>avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
>>>>Virus Database (VPS): 0604-1, 01/24/2006
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>>>>avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
>>>>http://www.avast.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Had a sluggish loss in power and loss of fire problem. All would be
>
> well
>
>>>after a restart. Problem turned out to be an intermittently clogged
>
> (nut &
>
>>>bolt catcher) screen at the fuel pump (tank) inlet. Replacing the
>>>pump/screen--all one unit at the time, fixed the problem.
>>>MLD
>>
>>Yeah, but on three different cars?
>>
>>Besides, being carbed, a clogged intake filter shouldn't affect it in
>>this way. In normal running it feeds off the float bowl; performance
>>doesn't rely on constant pressure.
>>
>
>
> I agree that to happen on three (of your) cars seems unlikely and
> unusual--having said that "why do you think that auto companies have
> recalls? If you have a design problem eventually it will begins to show up
> in the field.

The only recalls on this car are for the fuel filler tube rusting out,
and the seatbelt buckles having broken plastic bits. If there were
going to be a recall on this, it should have been issued a long time ago
on a 20-year-old design.

> In my case (and maybe or maybe not) your case it takes a long
> time for a screen to rust and clog to the point where it can intermittently
> effect fuel flow. If you saw what came out of my gas tank you wouldn't
> believe that it was a fuel filter. Have you considered looking at and/or
> changing the fuel filter that feeds the carb in the engine compartment?
> With respect to your comment re-fuel bowl---- if it is a fuel delivery
> problem maybe the float bowl is not getting filled with fuel, runs dry and
> when stopped has a chance to refill?

Nope. Low fuel flow and the float bowl not refilling would more likely
manifest as sputtering and dropouts at high rpms. It doesn't do that at
all - it's just an overall lost of acceleration power across the band.


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Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

yjrybano2spam@yahoo.com wrote:
> Matt
> Had a similar problem with an '85 carburated, so here is one more
> idea(long-shot).
> Is there(or should be) a snorkel hose from the exahust manifold to the
> air cleaner in the '87?.
> If so make sure it's intact and in place, and that the blend air door
> in the air cleaner operates. in the '85 I had, the linkage form the
> blend door vacuum motor to the door got disconnected resulting in loss
> of power especially on humid days.

Not even in use on this car - it's disconnected and the breather lid
flipped over to allow better breathing. Doesn't affect the issue. Hot
or cold, damp or dry, doesn't matter - sometimes it'll run great right
off the hop, sometimes sluggish at first and better later, sometimes it
just never quite "wakes up".


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Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

For the heck of it I Goggled "intermittent power loss Honda". Got lots of
hits with many interesting reasons and causes. Some fuel pumps, rusted fuel
filter, electrical (wires/plugs) etc. among them. A very hard one to find
turned out to be the oxygen sensor. Quote from the write-up "Three days
after the car first rolled in the shop, the problem was finally solved with
a simple oxygen sensor replacement. Those darn intermittent." Suggest you
try this path, might find your exact problem or at least something that will
lead you to the solution.
MLD

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
news:aC7Cf.224771$tl.120433@pd7tw3no...
> MLD wrote:
> > "Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
> > news:epUBf.220802$tl.14061@pd7tw3no...
> >
> >>MLD wrote:
> >>
> >>>"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:dePBf.444555$ki.201021@pd7tw2no...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Okay, this is really starting to bug me... this is the third '87
Accord
> >>>>in a row now that's had this problem (all carbed, first had A/C and
P/S,
> >>>>second P/S and non-working A/C, latest has neither.
> >>>>
> >>>>My first one was running great, really peppy, until I had a "fuel
system
> >>>>service" done, and after that it seemed sluggish. Both of the
> >>>>subsequent cars have had the same issue: sometimes they're just
> >>>>"oomph-less" - bog down off the line, punching the gas accelerates
only
> >>>>slowly, and pushing the clutch in for an upshift results in an
immediate
> >>>>feeling of deceleration, almost as if something was dragging.
> >>>>
> >>>>And then for no apparent reason, often after idling for a couple
> >>>>minutes, like at a long stop light, the power is just there - sharp
off
> >>>>the line, hitting the gas at cruise puts you back in the seat at just
> >>>>about any speed/RPM, and it keeps coasting smoothly when the clutch is
> >>>>lowered.
> >>>>
> >>>>I'd almost suspect a fuel delivery or ignition timing issue if it
> >>>>weren't for that "dragging" issue. I don't think it's the brakes; if
> >>>>they were sticking that badly they should be heating up as well, and
> >>>>they're not.
> >>>>
> >>>>Anyone got any thoughts?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>---
> >>>>avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
> >>>>Virus Database (VPS): 0604-1, 01/24/2006
> >>>>Tested on: 1/25/2006 10:14:17 AM
> >>>>avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
> >>>>http://www.avast.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>Had a sluggish loss in power and loss of fire problem. All would be
> >
> > well
> >
> >>>after a restart. Problem turned out to be an intermittently clogged
> >
> > (nut &
> >
> >>>bolt catcher) screen at the fuel pump (tank) inlet. Replacing the
> >>>pump/screen--all one unit at the time, fixed the problem.
> >>>MLD
> >>
> >>Yeah, but on three different cars?
> >>
> >>Besides, being carbed, a clogged intake filter shouldn't affect it in
> >>this way. In normal running it feeds off the float bowl; performance
> >>doesn't rely on constant pressure.
> >>
> >
> >
> > I agree that to happen on three (of your) cars seems unlikely and
> > unusual--having said that "why do you think that auto companies have
> > recalls? If you have a design problem eventually it will begins to show
up
> > in the field.
>
> The only recalls on this car are for the fuel filler tube rusting out,
> and the seatbelt buckles having broken plastic bits. If there were
> going to be a recall on this, it should have been issued a long time ago
> on a 20-year-old design.
>
> > In my case (and maybe or maybe not) your case it takes a long
> > time for a screen to rust and clog to the point where it can
intermittently
> > effect fuel flow. If you saw what came out of my gas tank you wouldn't
> > believe that it was a fuel filter. Have you considered looking at
and/or
> > changing the fuel filter that feeds the carb in the engine compartment?
> > With respect to your comment re-fuel bowl---- if it is a fuel delivery
> > problem maybe the float bowl is not getting filled with fuel, runs dry
and
> > when stopped has a chance to refill?
>
> Nope. Low fuel flow and the float bowl not refilling would more likely
> manifest as sputtering and dropouts at high rpms. It doesn't do that at
> all - it's just an overall lost of acceleration power across the band.
>
>
> ---
> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 0604-3, 01/26/2006
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> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>

Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

MLD wrote:
> For the heck of it I Goggled "intermittent power loss Honda". Got lots of
> hits with many interesting reasons and causes. Some fuel pumps, rusted fuel
> filter, electrical (wires/plugs) etc. among them. A very hard one to find
> turned out to be the oxygen sensor. Quote from the write-up "Three days
> after the car first rolled in the shop, the problem was finally solved with
> a simple oxygen sensor replacement. Those darn intermittent." Suggest you
> try this path, might find your exact problem or at least something that will
> lead you to the solution.
> MLD

The carbureted vehicles don't have oxygen sensors.


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Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote
> MLD wrote:
> > For the heck of it I Goggled "intermittent power loss
Honda". Got lots of
> > hits with many interesting reasons and causes. Some
fuel pumps, rusted fuel
> > filter, electrical (wires/plugs) etc. among them. A
very hard one to find
> > turned out to be the oxygen sensor. Quote from the
write-up "Three days
> > after the car first rolled in the shop, the problem was
finally solved with
> > a simple oxygen sensor replacement. Those darn
intermittent." Suggest you
> > try this path, might find your exact problem or at least
something that will
> > lead you to the solution.
> > MLD
>
> The carbureted vehicles don't have oxygen sensors.

The 1987 Accord most certainly does have an oxygen sensor. I
thought so off the top of my head, because my recollection
is that the oxygen sensor was a 1970s or so emissions
control development (someone can google and nitpick away for
details). www.slhonda.com 's parts site, under "exhaust
manifold" confirms.

This may not be thee solution to the intermittent power loss
problem, but I wouldn't disregard it entirely, either,
especially if the car is using the original, almost
20-year-old oxygen sensor.

https://www.automedicsupply.com/ wants $32 + shipping for an
OEM Denso sensor for the 87 Accord LX/DX. I used them for
one a year or so ago. Good service. Best price for OEM by
far. Packaging indicates this is a legit Denso sensor. Very
easy to replace. Borrow an O2 sensor wrench from Autozone at
no charge.

Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
news:EIPCf.469388$ki.67829@pd7tw2no...
> MLD wrote:
> > For the heck of it I Goggled "intermittent power loss Honda". Got lots
of
> > hits with many interesting reasons and causes. Some fuel pumps, rusted
fuel
> > filter, electrical (wires/plugs) etc. among them. A very hard one to
find
> > turned out to be the oxygen sensor. Quote from the write-up "Three days
> > after the car first rolled in the shop, the problem was finally solved
with
> > a simple oxygen sensor replacement. Those darn intermittent." Suggest
you
> > try this path, might find your exact problem or at least something that
will
> > lead you to the solution.
> > MLD
>
> The carbureted vehicles don't have oxygen sensors.

Didn't say that your car had or didn't have an Oxygen sensor. Just trying
to give you some sense of what can cause your problem and some place to look
for solutions. You're looking for help ands instead of being appreciative
of what you're getting you tend to have a negative attitude instead. Good
Luck (and good-bye)
MLD
>
>
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> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>

Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

Elle wrote:

>>The carbureted vehicles don't have oxygen sensors.
>
>
> The 1987 Accord most certainly does have an oxygen sensor.

Okay, put it this way: none of MY three 87 Accords have had oxygen
sensors, including this one. Yes, I am quite sure about this, so don't
tell me "Yes it does, you're just not looking hard enough." I got under
the car with a Honda service tech while he told me where it SHOULD be on
the first one, and there was nothing. When I finally went to another
dealer service center, I was told by the service manager that most
carb'd 87s DON'T have them.

So there you have it.

Given that the O2 sensor is supposed to measure the burn gasses and
allow the ECU to compensate, I see little point in having once since
there's no real way for the ECU to actually adjust the carb on these cars.


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Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

MLD wrote:
> "Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
> news:EIPCf.469388$ki.67829@pd7tw2no...
>
>>MLD wrote:
>>
>>>For the heck of it I Goggled "intermittent power loss Honda". Got lots
>
> of
>
>>>hits with many interesting reasons and causes. Some fuel pumps, rusted
>
> fuel
>
>>>filter, electrical (wires/plugs) etc. among them. A very hard one to
>
> find
>
>>>turned out to be the oxygen sensor. Quote from the write-up "Three days
>>>after the car first rolled in the shop, the problem was finally solved
>
> with
>
>>>a simple oxygen sensor replacement. Those darn intermittent." Suggest
>
> you
>
>>>try this path, might find your exact problem or at least something that
>
> will
>
>>>lead you to the solution.
>>>MLD
>>
>>The carbureted vehicles don't have oxygen sensors.
>
>
> Didn't say that your car had or didn't have an Oxygen sensor. Just trying
> to give you some sense of what can cause your problem and some place to look
> for solutions. You're looking for help ands instead of being appreciative
> of what you're getting you tend to have a negative attitude instead. Good
> Luck (and good-bye)

All I said what that there isn't an oxygen sensor.

Touchy, touchy.


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