Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote
> Elle wrote:
>
> >>The carbureted vehicles don't have oxygen sensors.
> >
> >
> > The 1987 Accord most certainly does have an oxygen
sensor.
>
> Okay, put it this way: none of MY three 87 Accords have
had oxygen
> sensors, including this one.

Site http://www.pauldesign.ru/honda/about.html indicates
that this is indeed very possible. It says about the 86-89
Accord:

" ... [In the] USA several versions of the carbureted engine
existed, which was modernized several times.... Depending on
the region where the Accord was sold, the engines may have
had slight differences such as the ECU adjustment depending
on the gasoline available, the absence of the oxygen sensor
etc."

Though let me duck and add, for the archives if not for you:
You say you are looking under the car. From the online parts
drawings, it looks to me like anyone seeking the oxygen
sensor should simply be looking at the top or front of the
exhaust manifold (depending on which 1987 Accord model you
have). It should be pretty readily accessible just under the
hood.

My 87 Civic manual has a drawing clearly labeled "exhaust
manifold... 1984-1987 carbureted engine." The oxygen sensor
is clearly shown on it, going into the top of the manifold
(but not quite the same way the 87 Accord drawings show).

But I realize a Honda tech would have known what to look for
and it would be darn near impossible to miss. So you must
have one of these Accords that the site I link above says
has no oxygen sensor.

> Yes, I am quite sure about this, so don't
> tell me "Yes it does, you're just not looking hard
enough." I got under
> the car with a Honda service tech while he told me where
it SHOULD be on
> the first one, and there was nothing.

> When I finally went to another
> dealer service center, I was told by the service manager
that most
> carb'd 87s DON'T have them.
>
> So there you have it.

> Given that the O2 sensor is supposed to measure the burn
gasses and
> allow the ECU to compensate, I see little point in having
once since
> there's no real way for the ECU to actually adjust the
carb on these cars.

"Once the oxygen sensor detect[s] that the mixture is lean
or
rich, it will send a voltage signal to the engine management
ECU
computer, which in turn issues a command to the mixture
control
solenoid found in the carburetor to adjust the mixture
before it enters
the engine. This procedure assures that the engine will be
given not
just the best possible fuel economy but the lowest possible
exhaust
emissions as well."
http://www.partstrain.com/ShopByDepa.../Oxygen_Sensor

The net has discussion at many sites of carburetors having
input from the ECU to control emissions. Again, I don't know
what the Honda Accord has exactly, beyond what the parts
sites and manuals claim.

Good luck.

Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

Matt Ion wrote:
> Given that the O2 sensor is supposed to measure the burn gasses and
> allow the ECU to compensate, I see little point in having once since
> there's no real way for the ECU to actually adjust the carb on these cars.

my 1981 VW rabbit had one. the CIS injection system on that thing was
completely mechanical, from what i remember. so i have NO clue what the
O2 sensors purpose was. i remember stripping the threads on the exhaust
manifold changing it, then driving it for months with just a bolt wedged
in the hole in the manifold. made no difference in driveability.

Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in
news:oyhDf.487308$ki.317478@pd7tw2no:

> MLD wrote:
>> "Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
>> news:EIPCf.469388$ki.67829@pd7tw2no...
>>
>>>MLD wrote:
>>>
>>>>For the heck of it I Goggled "intermittent power loss Honda". Got
>>>>lots
>>
>> of
>>
>>>>hits with many interesting reasons and causes. Some fuel pumps,
>>>>rusted
>>
>> fuel
>>
>>>>filter, electrical (wires/plugs) etc. among them. A very hard one
>>>>to
>>
>> find
>>
>>>>turned out to be the oxygen sensor. Quote from the write-up "Three
>>>>days after the car first rolled in the shop, the problem was finally
>>>>solved
>>
>> with
>>
>>>>a simple oxygen sensor replacement. Those darn intermittent."
>>>>Suggest
>>
>> you
>>
>>>>try this path, might find your exact problem or at least something
>>>>that
>>
>> will
>>
>>>>lead you to the solution.
>>>>MLD
>>>
>>>The carbureted vehicles don't have oxygen sensors.
>>
>>
>> Didn't say that your car had or didn't have an Oxygen sensor. Just
>> trying to give you some sense of what can cause your problem and some
>> place to look for solutions. You're looking for help ands instead of
>> being appreciative of what you're getting you tend to have a negative
>> attitude instead. Good Luck (and good-bye)
>
> All I said what that there isn't an oxygen sensor.
>
> Touchy, touchy.


Do you have any kind of service manual for the model and year of your car?
Factory,Haynes,Chilton,or other?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

Elle wrote:

> Though let me duck and add, for the archives if not for you:
> You say you are looking under the car. From the online parts
> drawings, it looks to me like anyone seeking the oxygen
> sensor should simply be looking at the top or front of the
> exhaust manifold (depending on which 1987 Accord model you
> have). It should be pretty readily accessible just under the
> hood.

I started there... the tech on the phone had me searching all the way
back to the catalytic converter.

> The net has discussion at many sites of carburetors having
> input from the ECU to control emissions. Again, I don't know
> what the Honda Accord has exactly, beyond what the parts
> sites and manuals claim.

There are no wires going anywhere near the carb or anything attached to
it on these three cars, either... how it manages air/fuel mixture is
beyond me because there's no mixture screw either, aside from idle mixture.


---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 0605-1, 01/30/2006
Tested on: 1/30/2006 4:27:28 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com

Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote
> Elle wrote:
> > Though let me duck and add, for the archives if not for
you:
> > You say you are looking under the car. From the online
parts
> > drawings, it looks to me like anyone seeking the oxygen
> > sensor should simply be looking at the top or front of
the
> > exhaust manifold (depending on which 1987 Accord model
you
> > have). It should be pretty readily accessible just under
the
> > hood.
>
> I started there... the tech on the phone had me searching
all the way
> back to the catalytic converter.

I understand. As long as one has some idea of what it looks
like, it's really hard to miss, so, yes, you must have and
have had Accords without them. I was mistaken, and the parts
sites are misleading on this matter, etc.

> > The net has discussion at many sites of carburetors
having
> > input from the ECU to control emissions. Again, I don't
know
> > what the Honda Accord has exactly, beyond what the parts
> > sites and manuals claim.
>
> There are no wires going anywhere near the carb or
anything attached to
> it on these three cars, either... how it manages air/fuel
mixture is
> beyond me because there's no mixture screw either, aside
from idle mixture.

Tricky, especially since the carburetor may be the source of
your Accord's problem. This might be an instance where
owning a Helm factory service manual might be a great aid, I
suppose. Good luck.

Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

Matt,
I have personal experience with this. I too have a '87 accord that is
carbureated.. I began intermittantly losing power. I initially replaced
the fuel filter. It did not seem to make a difference. the problem got
worse, especially at times of high fuel demand, such as when climbing a
big hill. I looked on google groups for an answer. I found a posting
that said that the 87 Accord was one model that had had some corrosion
issues with the fuel filler hose that would clog the screen on the fuel
pump pickup line. I bought a new pump, and screen (about $65). It
completely resolved my problem. The pump is very easy to replace. there
is a access hole behind the drivers side rear seat. lower the rear
seat, and you will see it in the floor of the trunk..
hope this helps.
Mike

Re: Annoying intermittant power loss
 

mikee442@gmail.com wrote:
> Matt,
> I have personal experience with this. I too have a '87 accord that is
> carbureated.. I began intermittantly losing power. I initially replaced
> the fuel filter. It did not seem to make a difference. the problem got
> worse, especially at times of high fuel demand, such as when climbing a
> big hill. I looked on google groups for an answer. I found a posting
> that said that the 87 Accord was one model that had had some corrosion
> issues with the fuel filler hose that would clog the screen on the fuel
> pump pickup line. I bought a new pump, and screen (about $65). It
> completely resolved my problem. The pump is very easy to replace. there
> is a access hole behind the drivers side rear seat. lower the rear
> seat, and you will see it in the floor of the trunk..
> hope this helps.

I guess it's easy enough to give that a look, but I still doubt it's a
fuel issue.


---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 0605-2, 01/31/2006
Tested on: 1/31/2006 8:58:47 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com