Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
 

>After studying reports on the MityVac vacuum pump for brake bleeding, I happily
>splurged on the super-duper MityVac kit at Harbor Freight. (I"m on a "buy only
>really nice tools" kick, anyway. Plus, like Mike said, I can use the MityVac for
>vacuum tests elsewhere on my car's engine.) Using a vacuum to pump out the brake
>fluid at each wheel made a lot of sense to me. So too does not operating the
>brake pedal, at some risk to the master cylinder. All as Mike and others in the
>archives have suggested.

Re: Mityvac,

Which one did you get? I checked Harbor Freight and they had 3..
$29, $33, $50.. What's the difference between them? It looks like
the diff between the 29 and 33 is that the $33 has a gauge, but I
also saw the $50, and didn't see much of a difference except the case,
and that it might be metal..??

Thanks

Randall Fox

Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
 

"Randall Fox" <fox_no_spam-usenet001@yahoo.com> wrote
> >After studying reports on the MityVac vacuum pump for brake bleeding, I
> >happily splurged on the super-duper MityVac kit at Harbor Freight.
snip
> Which one did you get? I checked Harbor Freight and they had 3..
> $29, $33, $50.. What's the difference between them? It looks like
> the diff between the 29 and 33 is that the $33 has a gauge, but I
> also saw the $50, and didn't see much of a difference except the case,
> and that it might be metal..??

Randall,

I bought #2068, priced at $53.99 I agree the difference between it and #39522
(priced at $33.99) is the fact that the more expensive one has the case and is
some kind of metal.

From googling I think a lot of people are quite happy with the $33.99 or lower
version. I'd say the version I bought is an extravagance. Maybe the super-duper
one will last a bit longer but if one only wants to bleed brakes, the plastic
pump may easily last many years.

I drove a bit farther today and my brakes feel just a bit mushy. I will try to
bleed a little more air tomorrow, hopefully with some sort of improved fitting
for the rear brake bleeder valves.

OTOH, the ride is noticeably quieter and smoother (both with the brakes applied
and not applied) than I remember.

Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
 

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 21:06:04 GMT, "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net>
wrote:

||"Randall Fox" <fox_no_spam-usenet001@yahoo.com> wrote
||> >After studying reports on the MityVac vacuum pump for brake bleeding, I
||> >happily splurged on the super-duper MityVac kit at Harbor Freight.
||snip
||> Which one did you get? I checked Harbor Freight and they had 3..
||> $29, $33, $50.. What's the difference between them? It looks like
||> the diff between the 29 and 33 is that the $33 has a gauge, but I
||> also saw the $50, and didn't see much of a difference except the case,
||> and that it might be metal..??
||
||Randall,
||
||I bought #2068, priced at $53.99 I agree the difference between it and #39522
||(priced at $33.99) is the fact that the more expensive one has the case and is
||some kind of metal.
||
||From googling I think a lot of people are quite happy with the $33.99 or lower
||version. I'd say the version I bought is an extravagance. Maybe the
super-duper
||one will last a bit longer but if one only wants to bleed brakes, the plastic
||pump may easily last many years.
||
||I drove a bit farther today and my brakes feel just a bit mushy. I will try to
||bleed a little more air tomorrow, hopefully with some sort of improved fitting
||for the rear brake bleeder valves.

#07000 includes a brake bleeding kit.
Includes a fluid feeder to keep the MC full automatically while you are under
the car sucking (sorry, couldn't resist).
It also includes a bottle to catch the fluid before it gets to your Mityvac.

Alternately, you can use a common jar, with tubes epoxied into the lid.
One tube goes to the bottom and attaches to the tube that goes to the brake
nipple.
The other just goes through the lid and attaches to the Mityvac

#06000 is just the brake bleeding accessory kit.

#07205 brake bleeding accessory Kit kit has a molded silicone tip that snaps
over a brake bleeder nipple. The kit costs as much as you probably paid for your
gun, but I don't see that particular tip listed as a separate service item.

And Mityvac recommends using teflon tape on the threads to prevent air being
sucked in around the threads and giving you false readings. I highly recommend
doing this. Not only does the fluid come out in a solid stream, it reduces the
amount of pumping. It also eliminates the possibility of a seized bleeder screw
in the future. Just be careful not to get the tape near the tip.
..
Texas Parts Guy

Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
 

glad it worked out ok!

regarding refitting the pistons, they should slide back in with just
thumb pressure. the important seal points are the outer face of the
cylinder groove and the piston wall. the groove is hard cast iron &
difficult to mess up if you're using a scraper - one that's not too
scratchy anyway. this means you can scrape out /all/ the accumulated
oxidation & gunk in the cylinder without too much fear. likewise, the
piston is forged & hard chrome plated. it too is fairly wear resistant,
so the flat blade of a larger blunt screw driver makes a great scraper
to get these things clean. [try not to drop it tho - can bash up the
piston wall quite badly if it improbably happens to land exactly square
on the only flinty surface for miles around.... :( ]

when all that's done, and the seal/piston are lubed up, it should slide
back in without any significant resistance.

regarding lube, yes, brake fluid is the recommended lube if you don't
have silicone handy - it contains rubber preservatives as well as being
slippery. BUT, it's also highly corrosive in the presence of water. if
you're living in a wet or snowy climate, this'll show itself by rusting
the piston solid. this is why good quality boots/seals are vital and
the silicone is so useful. a thin film on the cylinder wall both
above & below the seal. then a thin film on the piston before
insertion. [which is how you discover not to drop them.] as the piston
slides in, the lube scrapes off the piston at the seal and completely
fills the gap. this and a thin film on the sealing surface of the boot,
ensures the brake fluid is as sealed as possible from moisture ingress
and hence not as likely to corrode.

Caroline wrote:
> "jim beam" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote
>
>>Caroline wrote:
>>
>>>I have never done my own brake flush. I have been studying up on it using
>>>Autozone's repair guides, my Chilton's, and the UK (essentially helm) site.
>
> I am
>
>>>now prepping for a one-person gravity bleed and flush.
>>
>>gravity works great for fluid refresh if you don't have airlocks, but
>>it's unreliable in a rebuild like this. borrow a neighbor kid for a few
>>minutes and have them pump the pedal for you. just make sure they
>>understand how important it is that they don't let their foot /off/ the
>>pedal until you say! suckback is bad news.
>>
>>
>>>After a lot of reading, I
>>>feel pretty good about doing it. (The car does not have anti-lock brakes.)
>>>
>>>I'll test the piston per Eric's description. I am leaning towards a caliper
>>>rebuild (instead of buying reman'd calipers), despite the possible headache
>
> of
>
>>>replacing the piston seal
>>
>>that bit's easy - small electrical screwdriver has that thing out in no
>>time. the fiddliest item in the whole job is fitting the new boot, and
>>even that's not too bad if you think about it before you start working.
>
>
> Update:
>
> I did a "dry run" over the weekend and found that the three boots per caliper
> were in pretty good condition, after all. After more study, I decided to
> "rebuild" only the piston, replacing the piston seal, the boot ring, and the
> boot. Majestic (online parts) had quite a delay, due to both the July 4 holiday
> and because it didn't have all the OEM parts in stock, and so I ultimately
> canceled an order I had with them (which they were very cool about). I called my
> favorite independent shop, and they likewise didn't keep these parts but
> suggested I use a Napa piston rebuild kit by United. I ended up using this kit.
> $14 per piston, which is a lot less than OEM, though I note others' concerns
> about material quality.
>
> As you suggested, Jim, I raised the caliper and then used the brake pedal to
> increase the brake fluid pressure. Slowly, with a lot of checking, I pushed the
> piston out far enough that I could wobble it a bit with my fingers as it sat in
> its boot. When the caliper was off and at the workbench, I ended up pounding a
> bit (going through the banjo bolt hole with a wooden dowel). To novices: Beware
> the close tolerance of the piston in the cylinder. Don't "pound hard" anything
> on the caliper.
>
> With the electrician's screwdriver (thin, small diameter) I probed around the
> piston boot an hour or so trying to figure out how everything went together. I
> found the metal of the boot ring beneath the gunky buildup near the
> circumference. I soon found I could pry the boot ring up and out easily. The
> boot ring seems just a little thicker and just a little stiffer than baling
> wire.
>
> On the next caliper, this all went a lot faster, of course.
>
> Which grease to buy was puzzling for a few days. My Chilton's manual says to use
> "silicone grease" on the pins on which the caliper "floats" and "cylinder
> grease" on the piston seal. Plenty of silicone greases are in the hardware and
> auto parts stores, but I went with a synthetic grease dedicated to brake
> calipers, like I think Jim cited with his link. $2 for a generous packet at
> Autozone. It's red in color. It said it could be used on pistons, too, so, fed
> up with the conflicts in my research on this issue and what the stores were
> selling, I used the red Autozone synthetic grease on the pins and a very thin
> film of it on the piston seal, along with brake fluid, for the required
> lubrication.
>
> The piston seal was no problem installing. The piston went back in place pretty
> easily, with a little help from a C-clamp. A little fidgeting got the boot and
> boot ring into place pretty easily, too.
>
> I cleaned up the three sleeves with a degreaser followed by a thorough water
> rinse and let them dry. I wiped down the two pin (= bolt) assemblies, applied
> the red caliper grease, and re-assembled all.
>
> After studying reports on the MityVac vacuum pump for brake bleeding, I happily
> splurged on the super-duper MityVac kit at Harbor Freight. (I"m on a "buy only
> really nice tools" kick, anyway. Plus, like Mike said, I can use the MityVac for
> vacuum tests elsewhere on my car's engine.) Using a vacuum to pump out the brake
> fluid at each wheel made a lot of sense to me. So too does not operating the
> brake pedal, at some risk to the master cylinder. All as Mike and others in the
> archives have suggested.
>
> In hindsight, I don't know how I could have achieved as thorough and controlled
> a flush as I think I did without the MityVac kit.
>
> I goofed once and I think dropped the level below the bottom of the Master
> Cylinder reservoir. "Gulp" sound at the reserovoir? Big mistake. I was going to
> do a more thorough flush anyway and so pretty easily recovered from this
> mistake. Naturally, you test the car's brakes thoroughly before going out on the
> roads. After the "gulp," the pedal went just about to the floor and wouldn't
> "lock," so I knew I'd probably injected an air bubble into the system.
>
> The MityVac fittings worked great on the front caliper bleeder valves but not so
> well on the rear ones. Consequently, vacuum was harder to hold on the rears, and
> a lot more air bubbles came through the Mityvac hose for the rears. Undoubtedly
> this was from the ambient air leaking through the fitting and not the brake
> fluid in the car's system. The car's braking fine, so I am not worried.
>
> Jim, I removed the brake drums from the rear brakes, cleaned off the inside
> parts with brake cleaner, and got a good look at the cylinders and what all is
> going on in there. I've got plenty of shoe left (by the specs for the car) and
> figure that most of the braking power comes from the front, anyway. Thus I'm
> holding off replacing the rear brake cylinders until I need another pair of rear
> brake shoes. (The car's on its second pair of rear brake shoes at 154k miles.)
>
> Hose pinchers (= clamps) were a vital part to this job, as Jim suggested. After
> more study, I ended up with a pair from Autozone for $7 or so. They operate like
> little vises and did the job perfectly. I could not locate anything like what
> Jim cited online at any of the Auto parts stores or hardware stores, though I
> would have preferred the clamps he suggested. Easier fastening and releasing...
>
> In hindsight, and as several here suggested, I'd say anyone on a tight budget
> worried about his/her car's brakes and reasonably mechanically inclined could
> probably get away with just cleaning up the sleeves, pins (= bolts), and piston
> boot, and boot ring. From the pistons I carefully scraped off a tiny bit (but
> just enough to resist motion, I figured) of residue, too. Re-grease with
> synthetic caliper grease, bleed, and you're back on the road.
>
> "Must have" tools and materials for this job to me are:
> Medium-large C-clamp
> Hose pinchers (= clamps)
> Mityvac kit
> Brake cleaner (read what it can go on and what it can't)
> Brake fluid
> Jack stands, one pair
> Lotta cardboard to lay on the ground and on the car where you're doing the work.
> Brake fluid eats paint.
>
> As always, I appreciate the various nudges in the right direction folks provided
> here. All responses were helpful to making decisions on this.
>
>

Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
 

||regarding lube, yes, brake fluid is the recommended lube

Actually, the recommended lube is Brake Assembly Lubricant.
The old Raybestos number was BSF12. It would be hard to find.
Texas Parts Guy

Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
 

>Randall,
>
>I bought #2068, priced at $53.99 I agree the difference between it and #39522
>(priced at $33.99) is the fact that the more expensive one has the case and is
>some kind of metal.
>
>From googling I think a lot of people are quite happy with the $33.99 or lower
>version. I'd say the version I bought is an extravagance. Maybe the super-duper
>one will last a bit longer but if one only wants to bleed brakes, the plastic
>pump may easily last many years.

Caroline, Rex,

Thanks for the info...

Randall Fox

Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
 

Rex B wrote:
> ||regarding lube, yes, brake fluid is the recommended lube
>
> Actually, the recommended lube is Brake Assembly Lubricant.
> The old Raybestos number was BSF12. It would be hard to find.
> Texas Parts Guy

"brake fluid is the recommended lube _if you don't have silicone handy_"

yes, there's a number of products like you mention. the important thing
is NEVER to use a normal grease - complete ruination.

Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
 

Good one for the archives, Jim, particularly about where to apply the silicone
grease.

I couldn't quite get the pistons back in with thumb pressure. It sure didn't
take much force from the C-clamp (and I was on the lookout for applying the
force incorrectly, watching for tilting of the piston as I tightened the
C-clamp), so I'm not concerned.

More for the archives:
I think I bled each wheel altogether twice more. (Helluva workout in the last
few days. Makes me think about buying a hydraulic jack lift.) I used a different
Mityvac bleeder valve adaptor on the rear brakes and got the vacuum from the
Mityvac pump to hold better. Still, I never got the fairly solid stream that I'd
get at the front brakes. OTOH, I had teflon tape on the front bleeder screws
from the get-go. I never removed the (all rusty) rear bleeder screws. Next time
I do a bleed, I will replace the rear bleeder screws and teflon tape them.

It seemed like the brakes were still a tad mushy, but I was not sure. Thus the
extra bleeds. Then after more study I read that mal-adjusted rear brakes might
very well imitate air in the system. I couldn't find the "star wheel adjuster"
the first time I cleaned up the rear brakes last week and so hadn't touched it
on either side. I went at it again yesterday. Bustard technical manual Chilton
technical writers say simply that the adjuster is "located on the inboard side,
underneath the control arm." That's like saying the PCV valve is in the engine
compartment... somewhere...

I googled and someone wrote about his/her trailer brakes and how they have
little rubber plugs that have to be removed to get to the "star wheel adjuster."
Majestic's site indicated the existence of such an "adjuster plug" on the rear
brakes (as well as the adjuster). Someone else's Usenet post commented about how
the plug was on the inboard side of the brake backing plate. Someone else said
to use a flashlight to see it.

All true.

The plug is at about the 1 o'clock or 11'o'clock position (depending on the
car's side) on the inboard side of the drum brake's backing plate. If one really
wants to see the star adjuster well, skip the flashlight and take off the drum.

Overall, I had more luck making the adjustment with the drum off than through
the plug hole. Of course, one has to keep fitting the drum over the shoes etc.
to see how the fit is.

The star adjuster wheel itself is just a little 1/2-inch diameter or so gear or
circular ratchet.

The results of my rear brake adjustments: Noticeably less mush in the brake
pedal. I think it's better than when I first began this adventure, though I'm
still suspicious that my sloppiness in bleeding the brake system (the "gulp" at
the MC reservoir) led to more air than is desirable in the system. The parking
brake is much tighter, too.

The last time the rear brakes were adjusted must have been when I had the rear
brake shoes replaced, four years ago, around 112,000 miles.

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote
> regarding refitting the pistons, they should slide back in with just
> thumb pressure. the important seal points are the outer face of the
> cylinder groove and the piston wall. the groove is hard cast iron &
> difficult to mess up if you're using a scraper - one that's not too
> scratchy anyway. this means you can scrape out /all/ the accumulated
> oxidation & gunk in the cylinder without too much fear. likewise, the
> piston is forged & hard chrome plated. it too is fairly wear resistant,
> so the flat blade of a larger blunt screw driver makes a great scraper
> to get these things clean. [try not to drop it tho - can bash up the
> piston wall quite badly if it improbably happens to land exactly square
> on the only flinty surface for miles around.... :( ]
>
> when all that's done, and the seal/piston are lubed up, it should slide
> back in without any significant resistance.
>
> regarding lube, yes, brake fluid is the recommended lube if you don't
> have silicone handy - it contains rubber preservatives as well as being
> slippery. BUT, it's also highly corrosive in the presence of water. if
> you're living in a wet or snowy climate, this'll show itself by rusting
> the piston solid. this is why good quality boots/seals are vital and
> the silicone is so useful. a thin film on the cylinder wall both
> above & below the seal. then a thin film on the piston before
> insertion. [which is how you discover not to drop them.] as the piston
> slides in, the lube scrapes off the piston at the seal and completely
> fills the gap. this and a thin film on the sealing surface of the boot,
> ensures the brake fluid is as sealed as possible from moisture ingress
> and hence not as likely to corrode.

Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
 

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:15:34 GMT, "Caroline"
<caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>I googled and someone wrote about his/her trailer brakes and how they have
>little rubber plugs that have to be removed to get to the "star wheel adjuster."
>Majestic's site indicated the existence of such an "adjuster plug" on the rear
>brakes (as well as the adjuster). Someone else's Usenet post commented about how
>the plug was on the inboard side of the brake backing plate. Someone else said
>to use a flashlight to see it.
>
>All true.
>
>The plug is at about the 1 o'clock or 11'o'clock position (depending on the
>car's side) on the inboard side of the drum brake's backing plate. If one really
>wants to see the star adjuster well, skip the flashlight and take off the drum.
>
>Overall, I had more luck making the adjustment with the drum off than through
>the plug hole. Of course, one has to keep fitting the drum over the shoes etc.
>to see how the fit is.
>
>The star adjuster wheel itself is just a little 1/2-inch diameter or so gear or
>circular ratchet.

I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to
be turned by the self-adjusting lever??

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
 

"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >I googled and someone wrote about his/her trailer brakes and how they have
> >little rubber plugs that have to be removed to get to the "star wheel
adjuster."
> >Majestic's site indicated the existence of such an "adjuster plug" on the
rear
> >brakes (as well as the adjuster). Someone else's Usenet post commented about
how
> >the plug was on the inboard side of the brake backing plate. Someone else
said
> >to use a flashlight to see it.
> >
> >All true.
> >
> >The plug is at about the 1 o'clock or 11'o'clock position (depending on the
> >car's side) on the inboard side of the drum brake's backing plate. If one
really
> >wants to see the star adjuster well, skip the flashlight and take off the
drum.
> >
> >Overall, I had more luck making the adjustment with the drum off than through
> >the plug hole. Of course, one has to keep fitting the drum over the shoes
etc.
> >to see how the fit is.
> >
> >The star adjuster wheel itself is just a little 1/2-inch diameter or so gear
or
> >circular ratchet.
>
> I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to
> be turned by the self-adjusting lever??


True. For example:
_____
Most modern drum brakes are designed to self-adjust during application when the
vehicle is moving in reverse. This motion causes both shoes to rotate very
slightly with the drum, rocking an adjusting lever. The self-adjusters are only
intended to compensate for normal wear. Although the adjustment is "automatic,"
there is a definite method to actuate the self-adjuster, which is done during
normal driving. Driving the vehicle in reverse and applying the brakes usually
activates the automatic adjusters. If the brake pedal was low, you should be
able to feel an increase in the height of the brake pedal.
-- from Chilton's and Autozone's site for circa 1991 Civics, "Brake Operating
System: General Description"
_____

In addition, as I'm sure you're aware but for the record, parts drawings
identify the "self-adjuster lever" etc. that operates the star wheel adjuster.

But also --

1.
Chilton's and Autozone give a procedure for manual adjustment of the rear
brakes. It's under the "Adjustments: Rear Drum Brake Adjustment." I assume
manual adjustment is for 'non-normal wear.'

2.
Googling for {star wheel adjuster} or similar words on adjusting rear brakes
turned up some posts that talked about limitations in the self-adjusting
mechanism. IIRC someone (or two) claimed that you had to drive in reverse,
brake, then drive forward a little and do this repeatedly (to get enough turns
on the star wheel adjuster) to get a good adjustment. The persons(s) said it was
easier and more reliable to do the adjustment manually.

3.
_____
On vehicles with rear drum brakes, mis-adjusted brake shoes can cause a "long"
pedal and reduced braking, giving the illusion of air in the lines. If you're
trying to track down such a problem, adjust the rear brakes and test drive the
car before bleeding the system.
--from Chilton's and Autozone, "Bleeding the Brake System," typed in bold, right
before the first step for bleeding.
_____

I am a bit concerned I overtightened the shoes such that they are too close to
the drums. Guess this will just wear the shoes quicker. Also, I can't say I'm
100% confident the self-adjusting lever is doing its job. It seems a flimsy
design that doesn't hold the star wheel all that securely, so as to achieve only
the one-way rotation that should occur as the brake shoes wear.

OTOH, the star wheel adjuster wasn't that easy to turn in either direction. (I
pulled the lever out a little to rotate the star wheel adjuster such that the
shoes didn't press against the drum, as I was experimenting.)

I did put a couple of drops of "PB Blaster" on the star wheel adjuster-bolt
threads, where it mates to the clevises, as best I could, trying to minimize the
stuff getting onto anything else. This seemed to help.

Again, this is the first time I've ever personally (1) bled, and ultimately
effectively flushed, the brake system and (2) removed the rear drums and "brake
cleanered" the rear brakes' guts. I will certainly consider further commentary
on my approach here.

Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
 

Caroline wrote:
> "George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
>
>><caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>I googled and someone wrote about his/her trailer brakes and how they have
>>>little rubber plugs that have to be removed to get to the "star wheel
>
> adjuster."
>
>>>Majestic's site indicated the existence of such an "adjuster plug" on the
>
> rear
>
>>>brakes (as well as the adjuster). Someone else's Usenet post commented about
>
> how
>
>>>the plug was on the inboard side of the brake backing plate. Someone else
>
> said
>
>>>to use a flashlight to see it.
>>>
>>>All true.
>>>
>>>The plug is at about the 1 o'clock or 11'o'clock position (depending on the
>>>car's side) on the inboard side of the drum brake's backing plate. If one
>
> really
>
>>>wants to see the star adjuster well, skip the flashlight and take off the
>
> drum.
>
>>>Overall, I had more luck making the adjustment with the drum off than through
>>>the plug hole. Of course, one has to keep fitting the drum over the shoes
>
> etc.
>
>>>to see how the fit is.
>>>
>>>The star adjuster wheel itself is just a little 1/2-inch diameter or so gear
>
> or
>
>>>circular ratchet.
>>
>>I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to
>>be turned by the self-adjusting lever??
>
>
>
> True. For example:
> _____
> Most modern drum brakes are designed to self-adjust during application when the
> vehicle is moving in reverse. This motion causes both shoes to rotate very
> slightly with the drum, rocking an adjusting lever. The self-adjusters are only
> intended to compensate for normal wear. Although the adjustment is "automatic,"
> there is a definite method to actuate the self-adjuster, which is done during
> normal driving. Driving the vehicle in reverse and applying the brakes usually
> activates the automatic adjusters. If the brake pedal was low, you should be
> able to feel an increase in the height of the brake pedal.
> -- from Chilton's and Autozone's site for circa 1991 Civics, "Brake Operating
> System: General Description"
> _____
>
> In addition, as I'm sure you're aware but for the record, parts drawings
> identify the "self-adjuster lever" etc. that operates the star wheel adjuster.
>
> But also --
>
> 1.
> Chilton's and Autozone give a procedure for manual adjustment of the rear
> brakes. It's under the "Adjustments: Rear Drum Brake Adjustment." I assume
> manual adjustment is for 'non-normal wear.'
>
> 2.
> Googling for {star wheel adjuster} or similar words on adjusting rear brakes
> turned up some posts that talked about limitations in the self-adjusting
> mechanism. IIRC someone (or two) claimed that you had to drive in reverse,
> brake, then drive forward a little and do this repeatedly (to get enough turns
> on the star wheel adjuster) to get a good adjustment. The persons(s) said it was
> easier and more reliable to do the adjustment manually.
>
> 3.
> _____
> On vehicles with rear drum brakes, mis-adjusted brake shoes can cause a "long"
> pedal and reduced braking, giving the illusion of air in the lines. If you're
> trying to track down such a problem, adjust the rear brakes and test drive the
> car before bleeding the system.
> --from Chilton's and Autozone, "Bleeding the Brake System," typed in bold, right
> before the first step for bleeding.
> _____
>
> I am a bit concerned I overtightened the shoes such that they are too close to
> the drums. Guess this will just wear the shoes quicker. Also, I can't say I'm
> 100% confident the self-adjusting lever is doing its job. It seems a flimsy
> design that doesn't hold the star wheel all that securely, so as to achieve only
> the one-way rotation that should occur as the brake shoes wear.
>
> OTOH, the star wheel adjuster wasn't that easy to turn in either direction. (I
> pulled the lever out a little to rotate the star wheel adjuster such that the
> shoes didn't press against the drum, as I was experimenting.)
>
> I did put a couple of drops of "PB Blaster" on the star wheel adjuster-bolt
> threads, where it mates to the clevises, as best I could, trying to minimize the
> stuff getting onto anything else. This seemed to help.
>
> Again, this is the first time I've ever personally (1) bled, and ultimately
> effectively flushed, the brake system and (2) removed the rear drums and "brake
> cleanered" the rear brakes' guts. I will certainly consider further commentary
> on my approach here.

i know it's frequently cited here, and it's not your fault, but imo,
reversing to adjust the rear drums is in the same league as using the
emergency brakes to adjust them - complete rubbish. anyone that's
watched the adjuster mechanism in action with the drum removed can
easily see how it works - there's no black magic or art involved - they
are designed to self-adjust in normal operation.

that said however, adjustment /does/ depend on the adjuster wheel being
free to rotate. if it's rusted, clogged or screwed in too tight [say
after new shoes have been fitted], it won't work and the assembly needs
to be stripped down, cleaned, lubed & reassembled. i also find that a
little manual pre-adjustment helps get the ball rolling. the adjuster
can then be heard clicking on release after each time the brake pedal
has been pressed hard. just keep operating the brake until the clicking
stops. then you should have a great feeling pedal and good brakes.

Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
 

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:24:55 GMT, "Caroline"
<caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:

>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
>> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >I googled and someone wrote about his/her trailer brakes and how they have
>> >little rubber plugs that have to be removed to get to the "star wheel
>adjuster."
>> >Majestic's site indicated the existence of such an "adjuster plug" on the
>rear
>> >brakes (as well as the adjuster). Someone else's Usenet post commented about
>how
>> >the plug was on the inboard side of the brake backing plate. Someone else
>said
>> >to use a flashlight to see it.
>> >
>> >All true.
>> >
>> >The plug is at about the 1 o'clock or 11'o'clock position (depending on the
>> >car's side) on the inboard side of the drum brake's backing plate. If one
>really
>> >wants to see the star adjuster well, skip the flashlight and take off the
>drum.
>> >
>> >Overall, I had more luck making the adjustment with the drum off than through
>> >the plug hole. Of course, one has to keep fitting the drum over the shoes
>etc.
>> >to see how the fit is.
>> >
>> >The star adjuster wheel itself is just a little 1/2-inch diameter or so gear
>or
>> >circular ratchet.
>>
>> I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to
>> be turned by the self-adjusting lever??
>
>
>True. For example:
>_____
>Most modern drum brakes are designed to self-adjust during application when the
>vehicle is moving in reverse. This motion causes both shoes to rotate very
>slightly with the drum, rocking an adjusting lever. The self-adjusters are only
>intended to compensate for normal wear. Although the adjustment is "automatic,"
>there is a definite method to actuate the self-adjuster, which is done during
>normal driving. Driving the vehicle in reverse and applying the brakes usually
>activates the automatic adjusters. If the brake pedal was low, you should be
>able to feel an increase in the height of the brake pedal.
>-- from Chilton's and Autozone's site for circa 1991 Civics, "Brake Operating
>System: General Description"
>_____
>
>In addition, as I'm sure you're aware but for the record, parts drawings
>identify the "self-adjuster lever" etc. that operates the star wheel adjuster.
>
>But also --
>
>1.
>Chilton's and Autozone give a procedure for manual adjustment of the rear
>brakes. It's under the "Adjustments: Rear Drum Brake Adjustment." I assume
>manual adjustment is for 'non-normal wear.'

Both of above sound like Chilton's "generic advice" again.:-(

>2.
>Googling for {star wheel adjuster} or similar words on adjusting rear brakes
>turned up some posts that talked about limitations in the self-adjusting
>mechanism. IIRC someone (or two) claimed that you had to drive in reverse,
>brake, then drive forward a little and do this repeatedly (to get enough turns
>on the star wheel adjuster) to get a good adjustment. The persons(s) said it was
>easier and more reliable to do the adjustment manually.

The Honda/Helm manual for a '90 Civic describes the procedure for changing
rear brake shoes and the final step says to press the brake pedal to set
the self-adjusting mechanism.

>3.
>_____
>On vehicles with rear drum brakes, mis-adjusted brake shoes can cause a "long"
>pedal and reduced braking, giving the illusion of air in the lines. If you're
>trying to track down such a problem, adjust the rear brakes and test drive the
>car before bleeding the system.
>--from Chilton's and Autozone, "Bleeding the Brake System," typed in bold, right
>before the first step for bleeding.
>_____
>
>I am a bit concerned I overtightened the shoes such that they are too close to
>the drums. Guess this will just wear the shoes quicker. Also, I can't say I'm
>100% confident the self-adjusting lever is doing its job. It seems a flimsy
>design that doesn't hold the star wheel all that securely, so as to achieve only
>the one-way rotation that should occur as the brake shoes wear.

Yeah I've never been convinced that a self-adjusting mechanism, as
implemented, can work effectively in the environment it lives in after a
few years of lubricant burn-off, clag and corrosion build-up. If there's
any drag, it's easy to check the drum temps after a drive.

>OTOH, the star wheel adjuster wasn't that easy to turn in either direction. (I
>pulled the lever out a little to rotate the star wheel adjuster such that the
>shoes didn't press against the drum, as I was experimenting.)
>
>I did put a couple of drops of "PB Blaster" on the star wheel adjuster-bolt
>threads, where it mates to the clevises, as best I could, trying to minimize the
>stuff getting onto anything else. This seemed to help.
>
>Again, this is the first time I've ever personally (1) bled, and ultimately
>effectively flushed, the brake system and (2) removed the rear drums and "brake
>cleanered" the rear brakes' guts. I will certainly consider further commentary
>on my approach here.

At least the Honda drums are easy to get off - I recall my Beetles which
needed a 250ft-lb torque wrench to get the rear axle nut off.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
 

On 7/13/04 12:08 AM, in article FLSdnTjBtsSi827dRVn-gw@comcast.com, "jim
beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> Caroline wrote:
>> "George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
>>
>>> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I googled and someone wrote about his/her trailer brakes and how they have
>>>> little rubber plugs that have to be removed to get to the "star wheel
>>
>> adjuster."
>>
>>>> Majestic's site indicated the existence of such an "adjuster plug" on the
>>
>> rear
>>
>>>> brakes (as well as the adjuster). Someone else's Usenet post commented
>>>> about
>>
>> how
>>
>>>> the plug was on the inboard side of the brake backing plate. Someone else
>>
>> said
>>
>>>> to use a flashlight to see it.
>>>>
>>>> All true.
>>>>
>>>> The plug is at about the 1 o'clock or 11'o'clock position (depending on the
>>>> car's side) on the inboard side of the drum brake's backing plate. If one
>>
>> really
>>
>>>> wants to see the star adjuster well, skip the flashlight and take off the
>>
>> drum.
>>
>>>> Overall, I had more luck making the adjustment with the drum off than
>>>> through
>>>> the plug hole. Of course, one has to keep fitting the drum over the shoes
>>
>> etc.
>>
>>>> to see how the fit is.
>>>>
>>>> The star adjuster wheel itself is just a little 1/2-inch diameter or so
>>>> gear
>>
>> or
>>
>>>> circular ratchet.
>>>
>>> I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to
>>> be turned by the self-adjusting lever??
>>
>>
>>
>> True. For example:
>> _____
>> Most modern drum brakes are designed to self-adjust during application when
>> the
>> vehicle is moving in reverse. This motion causes both shoes to rotate very
>> slightly with the drum, rocking an adjusting lever. The self-adjusters are
>> only
>> intended to compensate for normal wear. Although the adjustment is
>> "automatic,"
>> there is a definite method to actuate the self-adjuster, which is done during
>> normal driving. Driving the vehicle in reverse and applying the brakes
>> usually
>> activates the automatic adjusters. If the brake pedal was low, you should be
>> able to feel an increase in the height of the brake pedal.
>> -- from Chilton's and Autozone's site for circa 1991 Civics, "Brake Operating
>> System: General Description"
>> _____
>>
>> In addition, as I'm sure you're aware but for the record, parts drawings
>> identify the "self-adjuster lever" etc. that operates the star wheel
>> adjuster.
>>
>> But also --
>>
>> 1.
>> Chilton's and Autozone give a procedure for manual adjustment of the rear
>> brakes. It's under the "Adjustments: Rear Drum Brake Adjustment." I assume
>> manual adjustment is for 'non-normal wear.'
>>
>> 2.
>> Googling for {star wheel adjuster} or similar words on adjusting rear brakes
>> turned up some posts that talked about limitations in the self-adjusting
>> mechanism. IIRC someone (or two) claimed that you had to drive in reverse,
>> brake, then drive forward a little and do this repeatedly (to get enough
>> turns
>> on the star wheel adjuster) to get a good adjustment. The persons(s) said it
>> was
>> easier and more reliable to do the adjustment manually.
>>
>> 3.
>> _____
>> On vehicles with rear drum brakes, mis-adjusted brake shoes can cause a
>> "long"
>> pedal and reduced braking, giving the illusion of air in the lines. If you're
>> trying to track down such a problem, adjust the rear brakes and test drive
>> the
>> car before bleeding the system.
>> --from Chilton's and Autozone, "Bleeding the Brake System," typed in bold,
>> right
>> before the first step for bleeding.
>> _____
>>
>> I am a bit concerned I overtightened the shoes such that they are too close
>> to
>> the drums. Guess this will just wear the shoes quicker. Also, I can't say I'm
>> 100% confident the self-adjusting lever is doing its job. It seems a flimsy
>> design that doesn't hold the star wheel all that securely, so as to achieve
>> only
>> the one-way rotation that should occur as the brake shoes wear.
>>
>> OTOH, the star wheel adjuster wasn't that easy to turn in either direction.
>> (I
>> pulled the lever out a little to rotate the star wheel adjuster such that the
>> shoes didn't press against the drum, as I was experimenting.)
>>
>> I did put a couple of drops of "PB Blaster" on the star wheel adjuster-bolt
>> threads, where it mates to the clevises, as best I could, trying to minimize
>> the
>> stuff getting onto anything else. This seemed to help.
>>
>> Again, this is the first time I've ever personally (1) bled, and ultimately
>> effectively flushed, the brake system and (2) removed the rear drums and
>> "brake
>> cleanered" the rear brakes' guts. I will certainly consider further
>> commentary
>> on my approach here.
>
> i know it's frequently cited here, and it's not your fault, but imo,
> reversing to adjust the rear drums is in the same league as using the
> emergency brakes to adjust them - complete rubbish. anyone that's
> watched the adjuster mechanism in action with the drum removed can
> easily see how it works - there's no black magic or art involved - they
> are designed to self-adjust in normal operation.

Not true as a general statement. I have personally owned cars that were
specifically designed to only adjust the brakes when stopping in reverse
(anything GM from the 60s & 70s), and I have personally owned cars that only
moved the adjuster when the parking brake was set. I have also owned cars
with rear drum brakes that maintain adjustment in normal usage ('02
Pathfinder). Some don't even have an adjusting wheel, they use a sliding
wedge. Calling it all rubbish is rubbish. You have to look at the
mechanism used by the specific manufacturer to correctly answer this
question.


>
> that said however, adjustment /does/ depend on the adjuster wheel being
> free to rotate. if it's rusted, clogged or screwed in too tight [say
> after new shoes have been fitted], it won't work and the assembly needs
> to be stripped down, cleaned, lubed & reassembled. i also find that a
> little manual pre-adjustment helps get the ball rolling. the adjuster
> can then be heard clicking on release after each time the brake pedal
> has been pressed hard. just keep operating the brake until the clicking
> stops. then you should have a great feeling pedal and good brakes.
>
>
>

Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
 

E. Meyer wrote:
> On 7/13/04 12:08 AM, in article FLSdnTjBtsSi827dRVn-gw@comcast.com, "jim
> beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Caroline wrote:
>>
>>>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>><caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I googled and someone wrote about his/her trailer brakes and how they have
>>>>>little rubber plugs that have to be removed to get to the "star wheel
>>>
>>>adjuster."
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Majestic's site indicated the existence of such an "adjuster plug" on the
>>>
>>>rear
>>>
>>>
>>>>>brakes (as well as the adjuster). Someone else's Usenet post commented
>>>>>about
>>>
>>>how
>>>
>>>
>>>>>the plug was on the inboard side of the brake backing plate. Someone else
>>>
>>>said
>>>
>>>
>>>>>to use a flashlight to see it.
>>>>>
>>>>>All true.
>>>>>
>>>>>The plug is at about the 1 o'clock or 11'o'clock position (depending on the
>>>>>car's side) on the inboard side of the drum brake's backing plate. If one
>>>
>>>really
>>>
>>>
>>>>>wants to see the star adjuster well, skip the flashlight and take off the
>>>
>>>drum.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Overall, I had more luck making the adjustment with the drum off than
>>>>>through
>>>>>the plug hole. Of course, one has to keep fitting the drum over the shoes
>>>
>>>etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>to see how the fit is.
>>>>>
>>>>>The star adjuster wheel itself is just a little 1/2-inch diameter or so
>>>>>gear
>>>
>>>or
>>>
>>>
>>>>>circular ratchet.
>>>>
>>>>I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to
>>>>be turned by the self-adjusting lever??
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>True. For example:
>>>_____
>>>Most modern drum brakes are designed to self-adjust during application when
>>>the
>>>vehicle is moving in reverse. This motion causes both shoes to rotate very
>>>slightly with the drum, rocking an adjusting lever. The self-adjusters are
>>>only
>>>intended to compensate for normal wear. Although the adjustment is
>>>"automatic,"
>>>there is a definite method to actuate the self-adjuster, which is done during
>>>normal driving. Driving the vehicle in reverse and applying the brakes
>>>usually
>>>activates the automatic adjusters. If the brake pedal was low, you should be
>>>able to feel an increase in the height of the brake pedal.
>>>-- from Chilton's and Autozone's site for circa 1991 Civics, "Brake Operating
>>>System: General Description"
>>>_____
>>>
>>>In addition, as I'm sure you're aware but for the record, parts drawings
>>>identify the "self-adjuster lever" etc. that operates the star wheel
>>>adjuster.
>>>
>>>But also --
>>>
>>>1.
>>>Chilton's and Autozone give a procedure for manual adjustment of the rear
>>>brakes. It's under the "Adjustments: Rear Drum Brake Adjustment." I assume
>>>manual adjustment is for 'non-normal wear.'
>>>
>>>2.
>>>Googling for {star wheel adjuster} or similar words on adjusting rear brakes
>>>turned up some posts that talked about limitations in the self-adjusting
>>>mechanism. IIRC someone (or two) claimed that you had to drive in reverse,
>>>brake, then drive forward a little and do this repeatedly (to get enough
>>>turns
>>>on the star wheel adjuster) to get a good adjustment. The persons(s) said it
>>>was
>>>easier and more reliable to do the adjustment manually.
>>>
>>>3.
>>>_____
>>>On vehicles with rear drum brakes, mis-adjusted brake shoes can cause a
>>>"long"
>>>pedal and reduced braking, giving the illusion of air in the lines. If you're
>>>trying to track down such a problem, adjust the rear brakes and test drive
>>>the
>>>car before bleeding the system.
>>>--from Chilton's and Autozone, "Bleeding the Brake System," typed in bold,
>>>right
>>>before the first step for bleeding.
>>>_____
>>>
>>>I am a bit concerned I overtightened the shoes such that they are too close
>>>to
>>>the drums. Guess this will just wear the shoes quicker. Also, I can't say I'm
>>>100% confident the self-adjusting lever is doing its job. It seems a flimsy
>>>design that doesn't hold the star wheel all that securely, so as to achieve
>>>only
>>>the one-way rotation that should occur as the brake shoes wear.
>>>
>>>OTOH, the star wheel adjuster wasn't that easy to turn in either direction.
>>>(I
>>>pulled the lever out a little to rotate the star wheel adjuster such that the
>>>shoes didn't press against the drum, as I was experimenting.)
>>>
>>>I did put a couple of drops of "PB Blaster" on the star wheel adjuster-bolt
>>>threads, where it mates to the clevises, as best I could, trying to minimize
>>>the
>>>stuff getting onto anything else. This seemed to help.
>>>
>>>Again, this is the first time I've ever personally (1) bled, and ultimately
>>>effectively flushed, the brake system and (2) removed the rear drums and
>>>"brake
>>>cleanered" the rear brakes' guts. I will certainly consider further
>>>commentary
>>>on my approach here.
>>
>>i know it's frequently cited here, and it's not your fault, but imo,
>>reversing to adjust the rear drums is in the same league as using the
>>emergency brakes to adjust them - complete rubbish. anyone that's
>>watched the adjuster mechanism in action with the drum removed can
>>easily see how it works - there's no black magic or art involved - they
>>are designed to self-adjust in normal operation.
>
>
> Not true as a general statement. I have personally owned cars that were
> specifically designed to only adjust the brakes when stopping in reverse
> (anything GM from the 60s & 70s), and I have personally owned cars that only
> moved the adjuster when the parking brake was set. I have also owned cars
> with rear drum brakes that maintain adjustment in normal usage ('02
> Pathfinder). Some don't even have an adjusting wheel, they use a sliding
> wedge. Calling it all rubbish is rubbish. You have to look at the
> mechanism used by the specific manufacturer to correctly answer this
> question.

fair enough, but can i please be forgiven for responding to a civic
question on a honda forum? parking/reversing adjustment for a civic
/is/ rubbish...

>
>
>
>>that said however, adjustment /does/ depend on the adjuster wheel being
>>free to rotate. if it's rusted, clogged or screwed in too tight [say
>>after new shoes have been fitted], it won't work and the assembly needs
>>to be stripped down, cleaned, lubed & reassembled. i also find that a
>>little manual pre-adjustment helps get the ball rolling. the adjuster
>>can then be heard clicking on release after each time the brake pedal
>>has been pressed hard. just keep operating the brake until the clicking
>>stops. then you should have a great feeling pedal and good brakes.
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: Brake Caliper Rebuild Questions
 

On 7/13/04 7:59 AM, in article n-idnRGclps_QW7dRVn_iw@comcast.com, "jim
beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> E. Meyer wrote:
>> On 7/13/04 12:08 AM, in article FLSdnTjBtsSi827dRVn-gw@comcast.com, "jim
>> beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Caroline wrote:
>>>
>>>> "George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I googled and someone wrote about his/her trailer brakes and how they
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> little rubber plugs that have to be removed to get to the "star wheel
>>>>
>>>> adjuster."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Majestic's site indicated the existence of such an "adjuster plug" on the
>>>>
>>>> rear
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> brakes (as well as the adjuster). Someone else's Usenet post commented
>>>>>> about
>>>>
>>>> how
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> the plug was on the inboard side of the brake backing plate. Someone else
>>>>
>>>> said
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> to use a flashlight to see it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All true.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The plug is at about the 1 o'clock or 11'o'clock position (depending on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> car's side) on the inboard side of the drum brake's backing plate. If one
>>>>
>>>> really
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> wants to see the star adjuster well, skip the flashlight and take off the
>>>>
>>>> drum.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Overall, I had more luck making the adjustment with the drum off than
>>>>>> through
>>>>>> the plug hole. Of course, one has to keep fitting the drum over the shoes
>>>>
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> to see how the fit is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The star adjuster wheel itself is just a little 1/2-inch diameter or so
>>>>>> gear
>>>>
>>>> or
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> circular ratchet.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought that star wheel, in between the two clevis pins, was supposed to
>>>>> be turned by the self-adjusting lever??
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> True. For example:
>>>> _____
>>>> Most modern drum brakes are designed to self-adjust during application when
>>>> the
>>>> vehicle is moving in reverse. This motion causes both shoes to rotate very
>>>> slightly with the drum, rocking an adjusting lever. The self-adjusters are
>>>> only
>>>> intended to compensate for normal wear. Although the adjustment is
>>>> "automatic,"
>>>> there is a definite method to actuate the self-adjuster, which is done
>>>> during
>>>> normal driving. Driving the vehicle in reverse and applying the brakes
>>>> usually
>>>> activates the automatic adjusters. If the brake pedal was low, you should
>>>> be
>>>> able to feel an increase in the height of the brake pedal.
>>>> -- from Chilton's and Autozone's site for circa 1991 Civics, "Brake
>>>> Operating
>>>> System: General Description"
>>>> _____
>>>>
>>>> In addition, as I'm sure you're aware but for the record, parts drawings
>>>> identify the "self-adjuster lever" etc. that operates the star wheel
>>>> adjuster.
>>>>
>>>> But also --
>>>>
>>>> 1.
>>>> Chilton's and Autozone give a procedure for manual adjustment of the rear
>>>> brakes. It's under the "Adjustments: Rear Drum Brake Adjustment." I assume
>>>> manual adjustment is for 'non-normal wear.'
>>>>
>>>> 2.
>>>> Googling for {star wheel adjuster} or similar words on adjusting rear
>>>> brakes
>>>> turned up some posts that talked about limitations in the self-adjusting
>>>> mechanism. IIRC someone (or two) claimed that you had to drive in reverse,
>>>> brake, then drive forward a little and do this repeatedly (to get enough
>>>> turns
>>>> on the star wheel adjuster) to get a good adjustment. The persons(s) said
>>>> it
>>>> was
>>>> easier and more reliable to do the adjustment manually.
>>>>
>>>> 3.
>>>> _____
>>>> On vehicles with rear drum brakes, mis-adjusted brake shoes can cause a
>>>> "long"
>>>> pedal and reduced braking, giving the illusion of air in the lines. If
>>>> you're
>>>> trying to track down such a problem, adjust the rear brakes and test drive
>>>> the
>>>> car before bleeding the system.
>>>> --from Chilton's and Autozone, "Bleeding the Brake System," typed in bold,
>>>> right
>>>> before the first step for bleeding.
>>>> _____
>>>>
>>>> I am a bit concerned I overtightened the shoes such that they are too close
>>>> to
>>>> the drums. Guess this will just wear the shoes quicker. Also, I can't say
>>>> I'm
>>>> 100% confident the self-adjusting lever is doing its job. It seems a flimsy
>>>> design that doesn't hold the star wheel all that securely, so as to achieve
>>>> only
>>>> the one-way rotation that should occur as the brake shoes wear.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, the star wheel adjuster wasn't that easy to turn in either direction.
>>>> (I
>>>> pulled the lever out a little to rotate the star wheel adjuster such that
>>>> the
>>>> shoes didn't press against the drum, as I was experimenting.)
>>>>
>>>> I did put a couple of drops of "PB Blaster" on the star wheel adjuster-bolt
>>>> threads, where it mates to the clevises, as best I could, trying to
>>>> minimize
>>>> the
>>>> stuff getting onto anything else. This seemed to help.
>>>>
>>>> Again, this is the first time I've ever personally (1) bled, and ultimately
>>>> effectively flushed, the brake system and (2) removed the rear drums and
>>>> "brake
>>>> cleanered" the rear brakes' guts. I will certainly consider further
>>>> commentary
>>>> on my approach here.
>>>
>>> i know it's frequently cited here, and it's not your fault, but imo,
>>> reversing to adjust the rear drums is in the same league as using the
>>> emergency brakes to adjust them - complete rubbish. anyone that's
>>> watched the adjuster mechanism in action with the drum removed can
>>> easily see how it works - there's no black magic or art involved - they
>>> are designed to self-adjust in normal operation.
>>
>>
>> Not true as a general statement. I have personally owned cars that were
>> specifically designed to only adjust the brakes when stopping in reverse
>> (anything GM from the 60s & 70s), and I have personally owned cars that only
>> moved the adjuster when the parking brake was set. I have also owned cars
>> with rear drum brakes that maintain adjustment in normal usage ('02
>> Pathfinder). Some don't even have an adjusting wheel, they use a sliding
>> wedge. Calling it all rubbish is rubbish. You have to look at the
>> mechanism used by the specific manufacturer to correctly answer this
>> question.
>
> fair enough, but can i please be forgiven for responding to a civic
> question on a honda forum? parking/reversing adjustment for a civic
> /is/ rubbish...
>

I'll buy that.

>>
>>
>>
>>> that said however, adjustment /does/ depend on the adjuster wheel being
>>> free to rotate. if it's rusted, clogged or screwed in too tight [say
>>> after new shoes have been fitted], it won't work and the assembly needs
>>> to be stripped down, cleaned, lubed & reassembled. i also find that a
>>> little manual pre-adjustment helps get the ball rolling. the adjuster
>>> can then be heard clicking on release after each time the brake pedal
>>> has been pressed hard. just keep operating the brake until the clicking
>>> stops. then you should have a great feeling pedal and good brakes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>