Re: Can I upgrade to disc brakes front and rear? '05 Accord
 

"Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns9936569FC9B13tegger@207.14.116.130...
>
> Rear brakes of either type generate so little heat that fade is NOT even
> close to being any kind of a concern. Heat-fade is a concern with the
> FRONTS (which handle 80% of braking effort), which is why all road cars
> use
> discs at the front these days.
>

That's my experience, too. Here in Arizona rust isn't a problem, but discs
still have more noise problems than drums do and the slide pins are still
troublesome. The only problem I've ever had with rear drums is worn-out
self-adjusters. Replace the self-adjuster assembly (usually when the linings
are worn out) and they are good for the rest of the life of the car.

I'm convinced front drums are what gave drum brakes their reputation as
second rate. I learned to drive on cars that had drums all around, and they
were completely unacceptable for highway use.

Mike

Re: Can I upgrade to disc brakes front and rear? '05 Accord
 

"Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns9936569FC9B13tegger@207.14.116.130...
>
> Rear brakes of either type generate so little heat that fade is NOT even
> close to being any kind of a concern. Heat-fade is a concern with the
> FRONTS (which handle 80% of braking effort), which is why all road cars
> use
> discs at the front these days.
>

That's my experience, too. Here in Arizona rust isn't a problem, but discs
still have more noise problems than drums do and the slide pins are still
troublesome. The only problem I've ever had with rear drums is worn-out
self-adjusters. Replace the self-adjuster assembly (usually when the linings
are worn out) and they are good for the rest of the life of the car.

I'm convinced front drums are what gave drum brakes their reputation as
second rate. I learned to drive on cars that had drums all around, and they
were completely unacceptable for highway use.

Mike

Re: Can I upgrade to disc brakes front and rear? '05 Accord
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
> news:Xns9936569FC9B13tegger@207.14.116.130...
>> Rear brakes of either type generate so little heat that fade is NOT even
>> close to being any kind of a concern. Heat-fade is a concern with the
>> FRONTS (which handle 80% of braking effort), which is why all road cars
>> use
>> discs at the front these days.
>>
>
> That's my experience, too. Here in Arizona rust isn't a problem, but discs
> still have more noise problems than drums do and the slide pins are still
> troublesome.

a number of manufacturers don't have slide pins on rear disks - they use
old fashioned twin-piston calipers because there are no steering
geometry constraints. [single piston front calipers were originally
born of the desire to create negative steering scrub radius.] bmw,
volvo and subaru use twin-piston iirc.

> The only problem I've ever had with rear drums is worn-out
> self-adjusters. Replace the self-adjuster assembly (usually when the linings
> are worn out) and they are good for the rest of the life of the car.
>
> I'm convinced front drums are what gave drum brakes their reputation as
> second rate.

i'd say it differently - it's front drums that /prove/ they're second
rate! their action is non-linear and they can only dump heat /through/
the drum metal by conduction, not direct to atmosphere like a disk.

> I learned to drive on cars that had drums all around, and they
> were completely unacceptable for highway use.

Re: Can I upgrade to disc brakes front and rear? '05 Accord
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
> news:Xns9936569FC9B13tegger@207.14.116.130...
>> Rear brakes of either type generate so little heat that fade is NOT even
>> close to being any kind of a concern. Heat-fade is a concern with the
>> FRONTS (which handle 80% of braking effort), which is why all road cars
>> use
>> discs at the front these days.
>>
>
> That's my experience, too. Here in Arizona rust isn't a problem, but discs
> still have more noise problems than drums do and the slide pins are still
> troublesome.

a number of manufacturers don't have slide pins on rear disks - they use
old fashioned twin-piston calipers because there are no steering
geometry constraints. [single piston front calipers were originally
born of the desire to create negative steering scrub radius.] bmw,
volvo and subaru use twin-piston iirc.

> The only problem I've ever had with rear drums is worn-out
> self-adjusters. Replace the self-adjuster assembly (usually when the linings
> are worn out) and they are good for the rest of the life of the car.
>
> I'm convinced front drums are what gave drum brakes their reputation as
> second rate.

i'd say it differently - it's front drums that /prove/ they're second
rate! their action is non-linear and they can only dump heat /through/
the drum metal by conduction, not direct to atmosphere like a disk.

> I learned to drive on cars that had drums all around, and they
> were completely unacceptable for highway use.

Re: Can I upgrade to disc brakes front and rear? '05 Accord
 

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:27ydneh3Kqnl_s3bnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>
>> I'm convinced front drums are what gave drum brakes their reputation as
>> second rate.
>
> i'd say it differently - it's front drums that /prove/ they're second
> rate! their action is non-linear and they can only dump heat /through/
> the drum metal by conduction, not direct to atmosphere like a disk.
>

They are definitely second rate for the front, where they have lots of heat
to dump. Drum brakes fade like crazy in that application. That isn't an
issue in the rear.

From Edmunds techcenter @ http://tinyurl.com/6r6kh : ".. the truth is that
today's disc/drum setups are completely adequate for the majority of new
cars. Remember that both disc and drum brake design has been vastly improved
in the last 20 years. In fact, the current rear drum brake systems on
today's cars would provide better stopping performance then [sic] the front
disc setups of the '70s. And today's front disc brakes are truly exceptional
in terms of stopping power. Combined with the fact that between 60 and 90
percent of a vehicle's stopping power comes from the front wheels, it's
clear that a well-designed, modern drum brake is all that's required for
most rear wheel brake duty."

Mike

Re: Can I upgrade to disc brakes front and rear? '05 Accord
 

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:27ydneh3Kqnl_s3bnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>
>> I'm convinced front drums are what gave drum brakes their reputation as
>> second rate.
>
> i'd say it differently - it's front drums that /prove/ they're second
> rate! their action is non-linear and they can only dump heat /through/
> the drum metal by conduction, not direct to atmosphere like a disk.
>

They are definitely second rate for the front, where they have lots of heat
to dump. Drum brakes fade like crazy in that application. That isn't an
issue in the rear.

From Edmunds techcenter @ http://tinyurl.com/6r6kh : ".. the truth is that
today's disc/drum setups are completely adequate for the majority of new
cars. Remember that both disc and drum brake design has been vastly improved
in the last 20 years. In fact, the current rear drum brake systems on
today's cars would provide better stopping performance then [sic] the front
disc setups of the '70s. And today's front disc brakes are truly exceptional
in terms of stopping power. Combined with the fact that between 60 and 90
percent of a vehicle's stopping power comes from the front wheels, it's
clear that a well-designed, modern drum brake is all that's required for
most rear wheel brake duty."

Mike

Re: Can I upgrade to disc brakes front and rear? '05 Accord
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:27ydneh3Kqnl_s3bnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>> I'm convinced front drums are what gave drum brakes their reputation as
>>> second rate.
>> i'd say it differently - it's front drums that /prove/ they're second
>> rate! their action is non-linear and they can only dump heat /through/
>> the drum metal by conduction, not direct to atmosphere like a disk.
>>
>
> They are definitely second rate for the front, where they have lots of heat
> to dump. Drum brakes fade like crazy in that application. That isn't an
> issue in the rear.
>
> From Edmunds techcenter @ http://tinyurl.com/6r6kh : ".. the truth is that
> today's disc/drum setups are completely adequate for the majority of new
> cars. Remember that both disc and drum brake design has been vastly improved
> in the last 20 years. In fact, the current rear drum brake systems on
> today's cars would provide better stopping performance then [sic] the front
> disc setups of the '70s. And today's front disc brakes are truly exceptional
> in terms of stopping power. Combined with the fact that between 60 and 90
> percent of a vehicle's stopping power comes from the front wheels, it's
> clear that a well-designed, modern drum brake is all that's required for
> most rear wheel brake duty."

You'll note that drums are still used almost universally in semi-trailer
rigs, where massive stopping power is of utmost importance.

Of course, if you really want to confuse the issue, you can always look
at the "hub brakes" used on train cars....

Re: Can I upgrade to disc brakes front and rear? '05 Accord
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:27ydneh3Kqnl_s3bnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>> I'm convinced front drums are what gave drum brakes their reputation as
>>> second rate.
>> i'd say it differently - it's front drums that /prove/ they're second
>> rate! their action is non-linear and they can only dump heat /through/
>> the drum metal by conduction, not direct to atmosphere like a disk.
>>
>
> They are definitely second rate for the front, where they have lots of heat
> to dump. Drum brakes fade like crazy in that application. That isn't an
> issue in the rear.
>
> From Edmunds techcenter @ http://tinyurl.com/6r6kh : ".. the truth is that
> today's disc/drum setups are completely adequate for the majority of new
> cars. Remember that both disc and drum brake design has been vastly improved
> in the last 20 years. In fact, the current rear drum brake systems on
> today's cars would provide better stopping performance then [sic] the front
> disc setups of the '70s. And today's front disc brakes are truly exceptional
> in terms of stopping power. Combined with the fact that between 60 and 90
> percent of a vehicle's stopping power comes from the front wheels, it's
> clear that a well-designed, modern drum brake is all that's required for
> most rear wheel brake duty."

You'll note that drums are still used almost universally in semi-trailer
rigs, where massive stopping power is of utmost importance.

Of course, if you really want to confuse the issue, you can always look
at the "hub brakes" used on train cars....

Re: Can I upgrade to disc brakes front and rear? '05 Accord
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:27ydneh3Kqnl_s3bnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>> I'm convinced front drums are what gave drum brakes their reputation as
>>> second rate.
>> i'd say it differently - it's front drums that /prove/ they're second
>> rate! their action is non-linear and they can only dump heat /through/
>> the drum metal by conduction, not direct to atmosphere like a disk.
>>
>
> They are definitely second rate for the front, where they have lots of heat
> to dump. Drum brakes fade like crazy in that application. That isn't an
> issue in the rear.
>
> From Edmunds techcenter @ http://tinyurl.com/6r6kh : ".. the truth is that
> today's disc/drum setups are completely adequate for the majority of new
> cars. Remember that both disc and drum brake design has been vastly improved
> in the last 20 years. In fact, the current rear drum brake systems on
> today's cars would provide better stopping performance then [sic] the front
> disc setups of the '70s.

eh? that's bullshit. whoever wrote that is basing it on the erroneous
supposition that because drum brakes are still used, there must be a
reason, and is just guessing that it's about performance. but it's just
a guess and has no basis in fact if they'd bothered to look up
performance figures. the reason drum brakes are used is cost and hand
brake implementation. and market segmentation creeps in there too to
some extent.

> And today's front disc brakes are truly exceptional
> in terms of stopping power. Combined with the fact that between 60 and 90
> percent of a vehicle's stopping power comes from the front wheels, it's
> clear that a well-designed, modern drum brake is all that's required for
> most rear wheel brake duty."

what's required and what's best are not the same thing.

Re: Can I upgrade to disc brakes front and rear? '05 Accord
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:27ydneh3Kqnl_s3bnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>> I'm convinced front drums are what gave drum brakes their reputation as
>>> second rate.
>> i'd say it differently - it's front drums that /prove/ they're second
>> rate! their action is non-linear and they can only dump heat /through/
>> the drum metal by conduction, not direct to atmosphere like a disk.
>>
>
> They are definitely second rate for the front, where they have lots of heat
> to dump. Drum brakes fade like crazy in that application. That isn't an
> issue in the rear.
>
> From Edmunds techcenter @ http://tinyurl.com/6r6kh : ".. the truth is that
> today's disc/drum setups are completely adequate for the majority of new
> cars. Remember that both disc and drum brake design has been vastly improved
> in the last 20 years. In fact, the current rear drum brake systems on
> today's cars would provide better stopping performance then [sic] the front
> disc setups of the '70s.

eh? that's bullshit. whoever wrote that is basing it on the erroneous
supposition that because drum brakes are still used, there must be a
reason, and is just guessing that it's about performance. but it's just
a guess and has no basis in fact if they'd bothered to look up
performance figures. the reason drum brakes are used is cost and hand
brake implementation. and market segmentation creeps in there too to
some extent.

> And today's front disc brakes are truly exceptional
> in terms of stopping power. Combined with the fact that between 60 and 90
> percent of a vehicle's stopping power comes from the front wheels, it's
> clear that a well-designed, modern drum brake is all that's required for
> most rear wheel brake duty."

what's required and what's best are not the same thing.

Re: Can I upgrade to disc brakes front and rear? '05 Accord
 

Matt Ion wrote:
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> news:27ydneh3Kqnl_s3bnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>>> I'm convinced front drums are what gave drum brakes their reputation
>>>> as second rate.
>>> i'd say it differently - it's front drums that /prove/ they're second
>>> rate! their action is non-linear and they can only dump heat
>>> /through/ the drum metal by conduction, not direct to atmosphere like
>>> a disk.
>>>
>>
>> They are definitely second rate for the front, where they have lots of
>> heat to dump. Drum brakes fade like crazy in that application. That
>> isn't an issue in the rear.
>>
>> From Edmunds techcenter @ http://tinyurl.com/6r6kh : ".. the truth is
>> that today's disc/drum setups are completely adequate for the majority
>> of new cars. Remember that both disc and drum brake design has been
>> vastly improved in the last 20 years. In fact, the current rear drum
>> brake systems on today's cars would provide better stopping
>> performance then [sic] the front disc setups of the '70s. And today's
>> front disc brakes are truly exceptional in terms of stopping power.
>> Combined with the fact that between 60 and 90 percent of a vehicle's
>> stopping power comes from the front wheels, it's clear that a
>> well-designed, modern drum brake is all that's required for most rear
>> wheel brake duty."
>
> You'll note that drums are still used almost universally in semi-trailer
> rigs, where massive stopping power is of utmost importance.

it's true that most trailers use them, but it's not because of superior
performance.

http://www.mcicoach.com/Parts-Servic...sDrum2Disc.htm
is the way of the future. and hopefully, rigs having to use runaway
ramps will be a thing of the past.

>
> Of course, if you really want to confuse the issue, you can always look
> at the "hub brakes" used on train cars....

Re: Can I upgrade to disc brakes front and rear? '05 Accord
 

Matt Ion wrote:
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> news:27ydneh3Kqnl_s3bnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>>> I'm convinced front drums are what gave drum brakes their reputation
>>>> as second rate.
>>> i'd say it differently - it's front drums that /prove/ they're second
>>> rate! their action is non-linear and they can only dump heat
>>> /through/ the drum metal by conduction, not direct to atmosphere like
>>> a disk.
>>>
>>
>> They are definitely second rate for the front, where they have lots of
>> heat to dump. Drum brakes fade like crazy in that application. That
>> isn't an issue in the rear.
>>
>> From Edmunds techcenter @ http://tinyurl.com/6r6kh : ".. the truth is
>> that today's disc/drum setups are completely adequate for the majority
>> of new cars. Remember that both disc and drum brake design has been
>> vastly improved in the last 20 years. In fact, the current rear drum
>> brake systems on today's cars would provide better stopping
>> performance then [sic] the front disc setups of the '70s. And today's
>> front disc brakes are truly exceptional in terms of stopping power.
>> Combined with the fact that between 60 and 90 percent of a vehicle's
>> stopping power comes from the front wheels, it's clear that a
>> well-designed, modern drum brake is all that's required for most rear
>> wheel brake duty."
>
> You'll note that drums are still used almost universally in semi-trailer
> rigs, where massive stopping power is of utmost importance.

it's true that most trailers use them, but it's not because of superior
performance.

http://www.mcicoach.com/Parts-Servic...sDrum2Disc.htm
is the way of the future. and hopefully, rigs having to use runaway
ramps will be a thing of the past.

>
> Of course, if you really want to confuse the issue, you can always look
> at the "hub brakes" used on train cars....

Re: Can I upgrade to disc brakes front and rear? '05 Accord
 

On 5/20/2007 4:59 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:

> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> news:27ydneh3Kqnl_s3bnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>>> I'm convinced front drums are what gave drum brakes their reputation as
>>>> second rate.
>>> i'd say it differently - it's front drums that /prove/ they're second
>>> rate! their action is non-linear and they can only dump heat /through/
>>> the drum metal by conduction, not direct to atmosphere like a disk.
>>>
>>
>> They are definitely second rate for the front, where they have lots of heat
>> to dump. Drum brakes fade like crazy in that application. That isn't an
>> issue in the rear.
>>
>> From Edmunds techcenter @ http://tinyurl.com/6r6kh : ".. the truth is that
>> today's disc/drum setups are completely adequate for the majority of new
>> cars. Remember that both disc and drum brake design has been vastly improved
>> in the last 20 years. In fact, the current rear drum brake systems on
>> today's cars would provide better stopping performance then [sic] the front
>> disc setups of the '70s.
>
> eh? that's bullshit. whoever wrote that is basing it on the erroneous
> supposition that because drum brakes are still used, there must be a
> reason, and is just guessing that it's about performance. but it's just
> a guess and has no basis in fact if they'd bothered to look up
> performance figures. the reason drum brakes are used is cost and hand
> brake implementation. and market segmentation creeps in there too to
> some extent.

Christ, Jim; is there any ing way you could be more pompous? Man!

For what it's worth, you might try actually reading the paragraph above
yours. Nothing is said about the reason drum brakes are used. Only
that they are better than they used to be, and in the following
paragraph, that they are adequate to the job requirements.

Through the years you've shown yourself to be very knowledgeable, as
well as high-handed, overbearing, impatient and rude.

Or maybe it's just me. Ah, well, it's usenet.


RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen
--
"I've reached that age in life when I surreptitiously ogle my co-worker
-- a smokin'-hot blonde Russian chick with legs that go on for days --
and all I can think is, "Man, I wish I could get her to say, 'Boris! Is
Moose and Squirrel!'" -- Allen Lindsey

Re: Can I upgrade to disc brakes front and rear? '05 Accord
 

On 5/20/2007 4:59 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:

> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> news:27ydneh3Kqnl_s3bnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>>> I'm convinced front drums are what gave drum brakes their reputation as
>>>> second rate.
>>> i'd say it differently - it's front drums that /prove/ they're second
>>> rate! their action is non-linear and they can only dump heat /through/
>>> the drum metal by conduction, not direct to atmosphere like a disk.
>>>
>>
>> They are definitely second rate for the front, where they have lots of heat
>> to dump. Drum brakes fade like crazy in that application. That isn't an
>> issue in the rear.
>>
>> From Edmunds techcenter @ http://tinyurl.com/6r6kh : ".. the truth is that
>> today's disc/drum setups are completely adequate for the majority of new
>> cars. Remember that both disc and drum brake design has been vastly improved
>> in the last 20 years. In fact, the current rear drum brake systems on
>> today's cars would provide better stopping performance then [sic] the front
>> disc setups of the '70s.
>
> eh? that's bullshit. whoever wrote that is basing it on the erroneous
> supposition that because drum brakes are still used, there must be a
> reason, and is just guessing that it's about performance. but it's just
> a guess and has no basis in fact if they'd bothered to look up
> performance figures. the reason drum brakes are used is cost and hand
> brake implementation. and market segmentation creeps in there too to
> some extent.

Christ, Jim; is there any ing way you could be more pompous? Man!

For what it's worth, you might try actually reading the paragraph above
yours. Nothing is said about the reason drum brakes are used. Only
that they are better than they used to be, and in the following
paragraph, that they are adequate to the job requirements.

Through the years you've shown yourself to be very knowledgeable, as
well as high-handed, overbearing, impatient and rude.

Or maybe it's just me. Ah, well, it's usenet.


RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen
--
"I've reached that age in life when I surreptitiously ogle my co-worker
-- a smokin'-hot blonde Russian chick with legs that go on for days --
and all I can think is, "Man, I wish I could get her to say, 'Boris! Is
Moose and Squirrel!'" -- Allen Lindsey

Re: Can I upgrade to disc brakes front and rear? '05 Accord
 

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:qLWdnQoKN6A3Wc3bnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> news:27ydneh3Kqnl_s3bnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>>> I'm convinced front drums are what gave drum brakes their reputation as
>>>> second rate.
>>> i'd say it differently - it's front drums that /prove/ they're second
>>> rate! their action is non-linear and they can only dump heat /through/
>>> the drum metal by conduction, not direct to atmosphere like a disk.
>>>
>>
>> They are definitely second rate for the front, where they have lots of
>> heat to dump. Drum brakes fade like crazy in that application. That isn't
>> an issue in the rear.
>>
>> From Edmunds techcenter @ http://tinyurl.com/6r6kh : ".. the truth is
>> that today's disc/drum setups are completely adequate for the majority of
>> new cars. Remember that both disc and drum brake design has been vastly
>> improved in the last 20 years. In fact, the current rear drum brake
>> systems on today's cars would provide better stopping performance then
>> [sic] the front disc setups of the '70s.
>
> eh? that's bullshit. whoever wrote that is basing it on the erroneous
> supposition that because drum brakes are still used, there must be a
> reason, and is just guessing that it's about performance. but it's just a
> guess and has no basis in fact if they'd bothered to look up performance
> figures. the reason drum brakes are used is cost and hand brake
> implementation. and market segmentation creeps in there too to some
> extent.
>
>> And today's front disc brakes are truly exceptional in terms of stopping
>> power. Combined with the fact that between 60 and 90 percent of a
>> vehicle's stopping power comes from the front wheels, it's clear that a
>> well-designed, modern drum brake is all that's required for most rear
>> wheel brake duty."
>
> what's required and what's best are not the same thing.
>

The part before the excerpt notes that drums are used because they are less
expensive. Their point is that drums are adequate for the application. Maybe
not "best" but "good enough."

Mike