Re: Can you "feel" a difference after a regular oil change?
 

SMS wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>> On Apr 26, 2:17 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>> Jeff wrote:
>>>> A car's length? It would be hard to feel the difference in
>>>> acceleration. Plus, you would have to floor it to feel the difference.
>>>> No, it's one's imagination.
>>> What's rather amusing is that even companies like Exxon-Mobile have
>>> never claimed, nor of course proven, an increase in MPG from synthetic
>>> base stock oil. Of course you see claims all over the map from Amsoil's
>>> multi-level-marketing distributors.
>>
>> They don't? Look here: <http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/
>> Oils/Mobil_1_FAQs.aspx#FAQs1>
>
> They only claim the increased fuel economy for 0W20 and 0W30. Yeah,
> since it's not possible to make a 0W20 or 0W30 with petroleum base
> stock, they have a point there. But even for the "Advanced Fuel Economy"
> products, they keep going back to "during warm up" every time they make
> a claim of reduced friction or "saving" energy.
>
> "During warm-up, Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy flows faster because of
> its lower viscosity to minimize metal to metal contact to reduce
> friction and wear."

you're confused dude. badly confused.


>
> "During the warm up phase, the Mobil 1 fully synthetic formulation
> because of its lower viscosity flows more easily through the oil pump,
> requiring less energy to pump the oil to the critical engine parts."
>
> "http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Advanced_Fuel_Economy.aspx"
>
>
> But for their "regular" synthetic oil, 5W20 and 5W30, they make no
> claims of increased fuel economy.

see above.

Re: Can you "feel" a difference after a regular oil change?
 

On Apr 26, 2:45 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
> > On Apr 26, 2:17 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> >> Jeff wrote:
> >>> A car's length? It would be hard to feel the difference in
> >>> acceleration. Plus, you would have to floor it to feel the difference..
> >>> No, it's one's imagination.
> >> What's rather amusing is that even companies like Exxon-Mobile have
> >> never claimed, nor of course proven, an increase in MPG from synthetic
> >> base stock oil. Of course you see claims all over the map from Amsoil's
> >> multi-level-marketing distributors.
>
> > They don't? Look here: <http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/
> > Oils/Mobil_1_FAQs.aspx#FAQs1>
>
> They only claim the increased fuel economy for 0W20 and 0W30. Yeah,
> since it's not possible to make a 0W20 or 0W30 with petroleum base
> stock, they have a point there. But even for the "Advanced Fuel Economy"
> products, they keep going back to "during warm up" every time they make
> a claim of reduced friction or "saving" energy.
>
> "During warm-up, Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy flows faster because of
> its lower viscosity to minimize metal to metal contact to reduce
> friction and wear."
>
> "During the warm up phase, the Mobil 1 fully synthetic formulation
> because of its lower viscosity flows more easily through the oil pump,
> requiring less energy to pump the oil to the critical engine parts."
>
> "http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Advanced_Fu..."
>
> But for their "regular" synthetic oil, 5W20 and 5W30, they make no
> claims of increased fuel economy.

Really? <http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/
GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_5W-20.asp>

Are you going to keep backtracking?

Re: Can you "feel" a difference after a regular oil change?
 

Jeff wrote:
<snip for clarity>
>
> Are you going to keep backtracking?

of course he is - he doesn't understand what the heck he's talking about.

Re: Can you "feel" a difference after a regular oil change?
 

Jeff wrote:
> On Apr 26, 2:45 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> Jeff wrote:
>>> On Apr 26, 2:17 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>> Jeff wrote:
>>>>> A car's length? It would be hard to feel the difference in
>>>>> acceleration. Plus, you would have to floor it to feel the difference.
>>>>> No, it's one's imagination.
>>>> What's rather amusing is that even companies like Exxon-Mobile have
>>>> never claimed, nor of course proven, an increase in MPG from synthetic
>>>> base stock oil. Of course you see claims all over the map from Amsoil's
>>>> multi-level-marketing distributors.
>>> They don't? Look here: <http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/
>>> Oils/Mobil_1_FAQs.aspx#FAQs1>
>> They only claim the increased fuel economy for 0W20 and 0W30. Yeah,
>> since it's not possible to make a 0W20 or 0W30 with petroleum base
>> stock, they have a point there. But even for the "Advanced Fuel Economy"
>> products, they keep going back to "during warm up" every time they make
>> a claim of reduced friction or "saving" energy.
>>
>> "During warm-up, Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy flows faster because of
>> its lower viscosity to minimize metal to metal contact to reduce
>> friction and wear."
>>
>> "During the warm up phase, the Mobil 1 fully synthetic formulation
>> because of its lower viscosity flows more easily through the oil pump,
>> requiring less energy to pump the oil to the critical engine parts."
>>
>> "http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Advanced_Fu..."
>>
>> But for their "regular" synthetic oil, 5W20 and 5W30, they make no
>> claims of increased fuel economy.
>
> Really? <http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/
> GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_5W-20.asp>
>
> Are you going to keep backtracking?

No offense, but you need to learn to read for comprehension. Nowhere do
they make a claim on that page that their 5W20 synthetic base stock
product provides better fuel economy that a comparable 5W20 petroleum
base stock product.

Why don't you show a _single_ independent study that shows a benefit to
most people. Oh, wait, they're aren't any!

After all these years you'd think that there would be at least one
published study that showed a provable benefit in terms of wear, MPG, or
extended change intervals for synthetics uses in non-high performance
engines, operated in moderate climates. But there aren't _any_. There's
anecdotes by users of synthetics, there's claims by companies like
Amsoil which have never been validated, and of course various claims by
MLM people selling Amsoil. Just choose your benefit from one of the
hundreds of MLM web sites!

Of course there probably have been plenty of studies that were done but
not published because they didn't have the results that the company
paying for the study wanted.

It's amusing that not even Mobil, who would have the most to gain by
some evidence of increased fuel economy for synthetics, can make that
claim. All we see is a heavily qualified statement that logically makes
no sense:

"Actual savings are dependent upon vehicle/engine type, outside
temperature, driving conditions, adjusting tire pressure, and your
current engine oil viscosity."

Huh? So adjusting tire pressure affects how well synthetic oil works (as
opposed to how well dino oil performs, LOL). And how does your current
oil viscosity, if it's the same as the viscosity of the synthetic, make
any difference.

So here's what Mobil thinks you should do:

1. Change to a lower viscosity of synthetic base stock oil than the
petroleum base stock oil that you're currently using

2. Drive only in extremely cold temperatures where sythetic has a
benefit at start-up.

3. Adjust your tire pressure, from the previously under-inflated
pressure you had with your petroleum base stock oil, to the proper pressure.

Geez, some people are gullible.

Re: Can you "feel" a difference after a regular oil change?
 

SMS wrote:
<snip for clarity>


> Geez, some people are

<snip>

STOOOOPID.

Re: Can you "feel" a difference after a regular oil change?
 

On Apr 26, 3:23 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
> > On Apr 26, 2:45 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> >> Jeff wrote:
> >>> On Apr 26, 2:17 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Jeff wrote:
> >>>>> A car's length? It would be hard to feel the difference in
> >>>>> acceleration. Plus, you would have to floor it to feel the difference.
> >>>>> No, it's one's imagination.
> >>>> What's rather amusing is that even companies like Exxon-Mobile have
> >>>> never claimed, nor of course proven, an increase in MPG from synthetic
> >>>> base stock oil. Of course you see claims all over the map from Amsoil's
> >>>> multi-level-marketing distributors.
> >>> They don't? Look here: <http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/
> >>> Oils/Mobil_1_FAQs.aspx#FAQs1>
> >> They only claim the increased fuel economy for 0W20 and 0W30. Yeah,
> >> since it's not possible to make a 0W20 or 0W30 with petroleum base
> >> stock, they have a point there. But even for the "Advanced Fuel Economy"
> >> products, they keep going back to "during warm up" every time they make
> >> a claim of reduced friction or "saving" energy.
>
> >> "During warm-up, Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy flows faster because of
> >> its lower viscosity to minimize metal to metal contact to reduce
> >> friction and wear."
>
> >> "During the warm up phase, the Mobil 1 fully synthetic formulation
> >> because of its lower viscosity flows more easily through the oil pump,
> >> requiring less energy to pump the oil to the critical engine parts."
>
> >> "http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Advanced_Fu...."
>
> >> But for their "regular" synthetic oil, 5W20 and 5W30, they make no
> >> claims of increased fuel economy.
>
> > Really? <http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/
> > GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_5W-20.asp>
>
> > Are you going to keep backtracking?
>
> No offense, but you need to learn to read for comprehension. Nowhere do
> they make a claim on that page that their 5W20 synthetic base stock
> product provides better fuel economy that a comparable 5W20 petroleum
> base stock product.
>
> Why don't you show a _single_ independent study that shows a benefit to
> most people. Oh, wait, they're aren't any!
>
> After all these years you'd think that there would be at least one
> published study that showed a provable benefit in terms of wear, MPG, or
> extended change intervals for synthetics uses in non-high performance
> engines, operated in moderate climates. But there aren't _any_. There's
> anecdotes by users of synthetics, there's claims by companies like
> Amsoil which have never been validated, and of course various claims by
> MLM people selling Amsoil. Just choose your benefit from one of the
> hundreds of MLM web sites!
>
> Of course there probably have been plenty of studies that were done but
> not published because they didn't have the results that the company
> paying for the study wanted.
>
> It's amusing that not even Mobil, who would have the most to gain by
> some evidence of increased fuel economy for synthetics, can make that
> claim. All we see is a heavily qualified statement that logically makes
> no sense:
>
> "Actual savings are dependent upon vehicle/engine type, outside
> temperature, driving conditions, adjusting tire pressure, and your
> current engine oil viscosity."
>
> Huh? So adjusting tire pressure affects how well synthetic oil works (as
> opposed to how well dino oil performs, LOL).

Tire pressure affects fuel economy.

> And how does your current
> oil viscosity, if it's the same as the viscosity of the synthetic, make
> any difference.

If you change from 10W30 regular to 5W20 synthetic vs. changing from
2W20 regular to 5W20 synthetic, you will have a different change in
fuel economy.

> So here's what Mobil thinks you should do:
>
> 1. Change to a lower viscosity of synthetic base stock oil than the
> petroleum base stock oil that you're currently using

Where did they say that?

> 2. Drive only in extremely cold temperatures where sythetic has a
> benefit at start-up.

Where did they say that?

> 3. Adjust your tire pressure, from the previously under-inflated
> pressure you had with your petroleum base stock oil, to the proper pressure.

Where did they say that?

> Geez, some people are gullible.

And some people are just plain stupid. You have GW Bush disease.

Re: Can you "feel" a difference after a regular oil change?
 

"jim beam" <retard-finger@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:jYidnQUKGoxMKGnUnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> SMS wrote:
> <snip for clarity>
>
>
>> Geez, some people are
>
> <snip>
>
> STOOOOPID.
>

Far as I'm concerned, SMS is a long-haired maggot-infested dope-smoking FM
type. If he was called to give professional testimony, as a judge, I'd have
the whole thing stricken from the record as being unreliable.

Charles Grozny

Re: Can you "feel" a difference after a regular oil change?
 

"Big Al" <big@big.com> wrote in message
news:big-820E48.07530926042009@freenews.netfront.net...
> Is it possible to feel a difference (smoothness, better acceleration,
> etc.) after a normal-interlude oil change? Someone is claiming this and
> I think it's just their imagination, but I was wondering if there'd be
> any technical reason. I can't think of one, unless the oil was quarts
> low or something drastic, which it wasn't.
>
> Thanks--
> Al

IMO, it's their imagination. I've never noticed anything, unless I had
something else adjusted along with the oil change.

Cathy

Re: Can you "feel" a difference after a regular oil change?
 

Jeff wrote:

<snip>

> Tire pressure affects fuel economy.

Of course it does, but Mobil is being disingenuous when they claim that
tire pressure has an effect on how well their synthetic base stock oil
performs versus how well a petroleum base stock oil performs. It makes
no difference. You should keep your tires properly inflated no matter
which type of oil you use.

> If you change from 10W30 regular to 5W20 synthetic vs. changing from
> 2W20 regular to 5W20 synthetic, you will have a different change in
> fuel economy.

And if you change from 10W30 petroleum base stock to 5W20 petroleum base
stock you'll see the same change in fuel economy. Of course you should
not make that change no matter which base stock you're using, but that's
another matter entirely.

Mobil is trying to get people to change multiple variables at the same
time, one of them being the base stock of the oil, then claiming the
increased fuel economy from switching to a lower viscosity oil and
proper tire pressure is due to the change in the base stock.

Even for their "Advanced Fuel Economy" formulation, the increase in MPG
isn't due to the base stock being synthetic, except for the fact that
apparently it's not practical to make a petroleum base stock 0Wxx oil.
Even then, they're hedging their bets, admitting that the advantage is
during start-up, not during normal operation.

Re: Can you "feel" a difference after a regular oil change?
 

SMS wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Tire pressure affects fuel economy.
>
> Of course it does, but Mobil is being disingenuous when they claim that
> tire pressure has an effect on how well their synthetic base stock oil
> performs versus how well a petroleum base stock oil performs.

dude, you have a serious reading comprehension problem.


> It makes
> no difference. You should keep your tires properly inflated no matter
> which type of oil you use.
>
>> If you change from 10W30 regular to 5W20 synthetic vs. changing from
>> 2W20 regular to 5W20 synthetic, you will have a different change in
>> fuel economy.
>
> And if you change from 10W30 petroleum base stock to 5W20 petroleum base
> stock you'll see the same change in fuel economy. Of course you should
> not make that change no matter which base stock you're using, but that's
> another matter entirely.
>
> Mobil is trying to get people to change multiple variables at the same
> time, one of them being the base stock of the oil, then claiming the
> increased fuel economy from switching to a lower viscosity oil and
> proper tire pressure is due to the change in the base stock.
>
> Even for their "Advanced Fuel Economy" formulation, the increase in MPG
> isn't due to the base stock being synthetic, except for the fact that
> apparently it's not practical to make a petroleum base stock 0Wxx oil.
> Even then, they're hedging their bets, admitting that the advantage is
> during start-up, not during normal operation.

see above. quit while you're behind.

Re: Can you "feel" a difference after a regular oil change?
 

In message <9x2Jl.19728$as4.17537@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com>, SMS
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> writes
>After all these years you'd think that there would be at least one
>published study that showed a provable benefit in terms of wear, MPG,
>or extended change intervals for synthetics uses in non-high
>performance engines, operated in moderate climates. But there aren't
>_any_. There's anecdotes by users of synthetics, there's claims by
>companies like Amsoil which have never been validated, and of course
>various claims by MLM people selling Amsoil. Just choose your benefit
>from one of the hundreds of MLM web sites!
I used to work for a company that made polymer or synthetic additives to
prolong oil life, I am also old enough to remember when it was normal to
change oil ever 3000 miles, but due to additives now the oil wear is
less, modern oils allow for annual changes or up to 20,000 miles between
changes, that's what synthetics are all about.
( Yes it wears out due to the shear forces in an engine chopping up the
long chain molecules into shorter runnier ones, lowering it's viscosity
and therefore protection.)
--
Clive

Re: Can you "feel" a difference after a regular oil change?
 

Clive wrote:
> In message <9x2Jl.19728$as4.17537@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com>, SMS
> <scharf.steven@geemail.com> writes
>> After all these years you'd think that there would be at least one
>> published study that showed a provable benefit in terms of wear, MPG,
>> or extended change intervals for synthetics uses in non-high
>> performance engines, operated in moderate climates. But there aren't
>> _any_. There's anecdotes by users of synthetics, there's claims by
>> companies like Amsoil which have never been validated, and of course
>> various claims by MLM people selling Amsoil. Just choose your benefit
>> from one of the hundreds of MLM web sites!
> I used to work for a company that made polymer or synthetic additives to
> prolong oil life, I am also old enough to remember when it was normal to
> change oil ever 3000 miles, but due to additives now the oil wear is
> less, modern oils allow for annual changes or up to 20,000 miles between
> changes, that's what synthetics are all about.
> ( Yes it wears out due to the shear forces in an engine chopping up the
> long chain molecules into shorter runnier ones, lowering it's viscosity
> and therefore protection.)

Yes, longer change intervals is what synthetic is good for. When Mobil 1
first came out, Mobil was promoting 25K miles between oil changes, but
they quickly backed down from that recommendation because they didn't
want to be liable for warranty issues resulting from owners violating
the required oil change interval in the manual.

Now the longer change intervals are finally making it to the U.S.. The
Mini Cooper is at 15K miles now with synthetic. Going beyond 15-20K is
dicey, not because the oil no longer lubricates, but because of the
acidity caused by the by-products of combustion. If you could add some
more additives that neutralize the acid, you could go even longer.

Re: Can you "feel" a difference after a regular oil change?
 

On Apr 26, 9:29 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> Clive wrote:
> > In message <9x2Jl.19728$as4.17...@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com>, SMS
> > <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> writes
> >> After all these years you'd think that there would be at least one
> >> published study that showed a provable benefit in terms of wear, MPG,
> >> or extended change intervals for synthetics uses in non-high
> >> performance engines, operated in moderate climates. But there aren't
> >> _any_. There's anecdotes by users of synthetics, there's claims by
> >> companies like Amsoil which have never been validated, and of course
> >> various claims by MLM people selling Amsoil. Just choose your benefit
> >> from one of the hundreds of MLM web sites!
> > I used to work for a company that made polymer or synthetic additives to
> > prolong oil life, I am also old enough to remember when it was normal to
> > change oil ever 3000 miles, but due to additives now the oil wear is
> > less, modern oils allow for annual changes or up to 20,000 miles between
> > changes, that's what synthetics are all about.
> > ( Yes it wears out due to the shear forces in an engine chopping up the
> > long chain molecules into shorter runnier ones, lowering it's viscosity
> > and therefore protection.)
>
> Yes, longer change intervals is what synthetic is good for. When Mobil 1
> first came out, Mobil was promoting 25K miles between oil changes, but
> they quickly backed down from that recommendation because they didn't
> want to be liable for warranty issues resulting from owners violating
> the required oil change interval in the manual.
>
> Now the longer change intervals are finally making it to the U.S.. The
> Mini Cooper is at 15K miles now with synthetic. Going beyond 15-20K is
> dicey, not because the oil no longer lubricates, but because of the
> acidity caused by the by-products of combustion. If you could add some
> more additives that neutralize the acid, you could go even longer.

One reason why synthetics last longer is they already have more
additives. The additives often cost more than the base stock oil.

Jeff

Re: Can you "feel" a difference after a regular oil change?
 

Jeff wrote:
> On Apr 26, 9:29�pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> Clive wrote:
>>> In message <9x2Jl.19728$as4.17...@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com>, SMS
>>> <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> writes
>>>> After all these years you'd think that there would be at least one
>>>> published study that showed a provable benefit in terms of wear, MPG,
>>>> or extended change intervals for synthetics uses in non-high
>>>> performance engines, operated in moderate climates. But there aren't
>>>> _any_. There's anecdotes by users of synthetics, there's claims by
>>>> companies like Amsoil which have never been validated, and of course
>>>> various claims by MLM people selling Amsoil. Just choose your benefit
>>>> from one of the hundreds of MLM web sites!
>>> I used to work for a company that made polymer or synthetic additives to
>>> prolong oil life, I am also old enough to remember when it was normal to
>>> change oil ever 3000 miles, but due to additives now the oil wear is
>>> less, modern oils allow for annual changes or up to 20,000 miles between
>>> changes, that's what synthetics are all about.
>>> ( Yes it wears out due to the shear forces in an engine chopping up the
>>> long chain molecules into shorter runnier ones, lowering it's viscosity
>>> and therefore protection.)
>> Yes, longer change intervals is what synthetic is good for. When Mobil 1
>> first came out, Mobil was promoting 25K miles between oil changes, but
>> they quickly backed down from that recommendation because they didn't
>> want to be liable for warranty issues resulting from owners violating
>> the required oil change interval in the manual.
>>
>> Now the longer change intervals are finally making it to the U.S.. The
>> Mini Cooper is at 15K miles now with synthetic. Going beyond 15-20K is
>> dicey, not because the oil no longer lubricates, but because of the
>> acidity caused by the by-products of combustion. If you could add some
>> more additives that neutralize the acid, you could go even longer.
>
> One reason why synthetics last longer is they already have more
> additives. The additives often cost more than the base stock oil.
>
> Jeff

actually, it's stability of the base oil, not so much the additives.
because the base is highly refined, it doesn't have nasties in it like
aromatics, branched chains, sulfur, etc. thus the base, 1-decene for
example, is highly stable, and so doesn't break down. indeed, 25k was
mobil's original stance on synthetics because it was a real number, and
they were prepared to unconditionally guarantee it too. but it's not
good for sales and dealer service profits, so they backed down. you can
try it yourself though - just send oil in for analysis and see how it's
doing.

Re: Can you "feel" a difference after a regular oil change?
 

Jeff wrote:
> On Apr 26, 9:29 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> Clive wrote:
>>> In message <9x2Jl.19728$as4.17...@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com>, SMS
>>> <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> writes
>>>> After all these years you'd think that there would be at least one
>>>> published study that showed a provable benefit in terms of wear, MPG,
>>>> or extended change intervals for synthetics uses in non-high
>>>> performance engines, operated in moderate climates. But there aren't
>>>> _any_. There's anecdotes by users of synthetics, there's claims by
>>>> companies like Amsoil which have never been validated, and of course
>>>> various claims by MLM people selling Amsoil. Just choose your benefit
>>>> from one of the hundreds of MLM web sites!
>>> I used to work for a company that made polymer or synthetic additives to
>>> prolong oil life, I am also old enough to remember when it was normal to
>>> change oil ever 3000 miles, but due to additives now the oil wear is
>>> less, modern oils allow for annual changes or up to 20,000 miles between
>>> changes, that's what synthetics are all about.
>>> ( Yes it wears out due to the shear forces in an engine chopping up the
>>> long chain molecules into shorter runnier ones, lowering it's viscosity
>>> and therefore protection.)
>> Yes, longer change intervals is what synthetic is good for. When Mobil 1
>> first came out, Mobil was promoting 25K miles between oil changes, but
>> they quickly backed down from that recommendation because they didn't
>> want to be liable for warranty issues resulting from owners violating
>> the required oil change interval in the manual.
>>
>> Now the longer change intervals are finally making it to the U.S.. The
>> Mini Cooper is at 15K miles now with synthetic. Going beyond 15-20K is
>> dicey, not because the oil no longer lubricates, but because of the
>> acidity caused by the by-products of combustion. If you could add some
>> more additives that neutralize the acid, you could go even longer.
>
> One reason why synthetics last longer is they already have more
> additives. The additives often cost more than the base stock oil.
>
> Jeff
Hi,
How about starting with definition of synthetic?