Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic
 

chuck wrote:
> This problem has been driving my nuts for awhile. I've changed the
> injectors. What happens is that the check enigine light comes on (the
> code 16) and if the car is idleing for 5 minutes it starts smoking,
> floods out and dies. Sometimes it'll die at a stop sign too. No amount
> of cranking will clear it and allow it to start. If I pull the wires to
> the injectors it'll clear the flooded condition and start right up. I
> hate to replace the ECU and find that the condition is caused by some
> sensor. So, I guess my question is; is there some sensor that can cause
> this problem and what's the test proceedure for the sensor. BTW, it's a
> 1.5l DPI engine.
>
> Thanks for any help.


i don't think code 16 is your problem* - here's what i think is the clue:

"I've changed the injectors."

with the throttle body injection, the injectors are deep set and have 2
or 3 o-ring seals on them. on reinsertion, if you didn't grease
properly, i think you snagged one of the o-rings and now you're leaking
fuel into the t.b. you'll have to re-pull the injectors and check.

but this begs the question of why you pulled them in the first place -
is this a california vehicle and do you have a hesitation problem?


* - code 16 is usually a main relay problem. it happens on hondas this
age. either re-solder or replace as a matter of course. it won't
affect your injectors with the symptoms you describe.

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic
 

Grahame wrote:
>> Code 16 often indicates a failed main relay. The main relay is located
>> under the the dash at the far left side by the coin tray and it controls the
>> fuel injectors. A relay failure is quite common with a car of this age. A
>> common problem with the relay is cracked solder joints and some people have
>> success resoldering them. I chose to replace mine with a new one from Honda
>> as the contacts inside the relay were pitted like an old set of distributor
>> points. Note that a new relay will run you about $40 or so.
>>
>> Eric
>
> A bad main relay will not set any trouble codes,

in my experience, it does set a #16 on this vehicle. i've had no less
than 5 [yes five] 88-91 dpfi hondas with this problem. new/resoldered
relays fix it every time.

> the main relay
> controls the fuel pump and when it fails the car will not start,
> usualy when it gets hot outside. This is not the problem Chuck
> describes. Sounds more like a fuel pressure problem.
>

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic
 

Grahame wrote:
>> Code 16 often indicates a failed main relay. The main relay is located
>> under the the dash at the far left side by the coin tray and it controls the
>> fuel injectors. A relay failure is quite common with a car of this age. A
>> common problem with the relay is cracked solder joints and some people have
>> success resoldering them. I chose to replace mine with a new one from Honda
>> as the contacts inside the relay were pitted like an old set of distributor
>> points. Note that a new relay will run you about $40 or so.
>>
>> Eric
>
> A bad main relay will not set any trouble codes,

in my experience, it does set a #16 on this vehicle. i've had no less
than 5 [yes five] 88-91 dpfi hondas with this problem. new/resoldered
relays fix it every time.

> the main relay
> controls the fuel pump and when it fails the car will not start,
> usualy when it gets hot outside. This is not the problem Chuck
> describes. Sounds more like a fuel pressure problem.
>

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic
 

Grahame wrote:
>> Code 16 often indicates a failed main relay. The main relay is located
>> under the the dash at the far left side by the coin tray and it controls the
>> fuel injectors. A relay failure is quite common with a car of this age. A
>> common problem with the relay is cracked solder joints and some people have
>> success resoldering them. I chose to replace mine with a new one from Honda
>> as the contacts inside the relay were pitted like an old set of distributor
>> points. Note that a new relay will run you about $40 or so.
>>
>> Eric
>
> A bad main relay will not set any trouble codes,

in my experience, it does set a #16 on this vehicle. i've had no less
than 5 [yes five] 88-91 dpfi hondas with this problem. new/resoldered
relays fix it every time.

> the main relay
> controls the fuel pump and when it fails the car will not start,
> usualy when it gets hot outside. This is not the problem Chuck
> describes. Sounds more like a fuel pressure problem.
>

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic
 

On 2007-08-13, Grahame <grahame.news@rogers.com> wrote:
>> Code 16 often indicates a failed main relay. The main relay is located
>> under the the dash at the far left side by the coin tray and it controls the
>> fuel injectors. A relay failure is quite common with a car of this age. A
>> common problem with the relay is cracked solder joints and some people have
>> success resoldering them. I chose to replace mine with a new one from Honda
>> as the contacts inside the relay were pitted like an old set of distributor
>> points. Note that a new relay will run you about $40 or so.
>>
>> Eric
>
> A bad main relay will not set any trouble codes, the main relay
> controls the fuel pump and when it fails the car will not start,
> usualy when it gets hot outside. This is not the problem Chuck
> describes. Sounds more like a fuel pressure problem.
>

I checked this. 40psi at the fuel filter with the vacuum hose
disconnected.

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic
 

On 2007-08-13, Grahame <grahame.news@rogers.com> wrote:
>> Code 16 often indicates a failed main relay. The main relay is located
>> under the the dash at the far left side by the coin tray and it controls the
>> fuel injectors. A relay failure is quite common with a car of this age. A
>> common problem with the relay is cracked solder joints and some people have
>> success resoldering them. I chose to replace mine with a new one from Honda
>> as the contacts inside the relay were pitted like an old set of distributor
>> points. Note that a new relay will run you about $40 or so.
>>
>> Eric
>
> A bad main relay will not set any trouble codes, the main relay
> controls the fuel pump and when it fails the car will not start,
> usualy when it gets hot outside. This is not the problem Chuck
> describes. Sounds more like a fuel pressure problem.
>

I checked this. 40psi at the fuel filter with the vacuum hose
disconnected.

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic
 

On 2007-08-13, Grahame <grahame.news@rogers.com> wrote:
>> Code 16 often indicates a failed main relay. The main relay is located
>> under the the dash at the far left side by the coin tray and it controls the
>> fuel injectors. A relay failure is quite common with a car of this age. A
>> common problem with the relay is cracked solder joints and some people have
>> success resoldering them. I chose to replace mine with a new one from Honda
>> as the contacts inside the relay were pitted like an old set of distributor
>> points. Note that a new relay will run you about $40 or so.
>>
>> Eric
>
> A bad main relay will not set any trouble codes, the main relay
> controls the fuel pump and when it fails the car will not start,
> usualy when it gets hot outside. This is not the problem Chuck
> describes. Sounds more like a fuel pressure problem.
>

I checked this. 40psi at the fuel filter with the vacuum hose
disconnected.

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic
 

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:08:57 -0700, jim beam
<spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:

>Grahame wrote:
>>> Code 16 often indicates a failed main relay. The main relay is located
>>> under the the dash at the far left side by the coin tray and it controls the
>>> fuel injectors. A relay failure is quite common with a car of this age. A
>>> common problem with the relay is cracked solder joints and some people have
>>> success resoldering them. I chose to replace mine with a new one from Honda
>>> as the contacts inside the relay were pitted like an old set of distributor
>>> points. Note that a new relay will run you about $40 or so.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>
>> A bad main relay will not set any trouble codes,
>
>in my experience, it does set a #16 on this vehicle. i've had no less
>than 5 [yes five] 88-91 dpfi hondas with this problem. new/resoldered
>relays fix it every time.
>

I have a 91 Accord. Would you suggest replacing the relay on a
preventive basis? I have no symptoms and want none.

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic
 

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:08:57 -0700, jim beam
<spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:

>Grahame wrote:
>>> Code 16 often indicates a failed main relay. The main relay is located
>>> under the the dash at the far left side by the coin tray and it controls the
>>> fuel injectors. A relay failure is quite common with a car of this age. A
>>> common problem with the relay is cracked solder joints and some people have
>>> success resoldering them. I chose to replace mine with a new one from Honda
>>> as the contacts inside the relay were pitted like an old set of distributor
>>> points. Note that a new relay will run you about $40 or so.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>
>> A bad main relay will not set any trouble codes,
>
>in my experience, it does set a #16 on this vehicle. i've had no less
>than 5 [yes five] 88-91 dpfi hondas with this problem. new/resoldered
>relays fix it every time.
>

I have a 91 Accord. Would you suggest replacing the relay on a
preventive basis? I have no symptoms and want none.

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic
 

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:08:57 -0700, jim beam
<spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:

>Grahame wrote:
>>> Code 16 often indicates a failed main relay. The main relay is located
>>> under the the dash at the far left side by the coin tray and it controls the
>>> fuel injectors. A relay failure is quite common with a car of this age. A
>>> common problem with the relay is cracked solder joints and some people have
>>> success resoldering them. I chose to replace mine with a new one from Honda
>>> as the contacts inside the relay were pitted like an old set of distributor
>>> points. Note that a new relay will run you about $40 or so.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>
>> A bad main relay will not set any trouble codes,
>
>in my experience, it does set a #16 on this vehicle. i've had no less
>than 5 [yes five] 88-91 dpfi hondas with this problem. new/resoldered
>relays fix it every time.
>

I have a 91 Accord. Would you suggest replacing the relay on a
preventive basis? I have no symptoms and want none.

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic
 

On 2007-08-13, Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> Grahame <grahame.news@rogers.com> wrote in
> news:1187047947.381977.212860@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com:
>
>>> Code 16 often indicates a failed main relay. The main relay is
>>> located under the the dash at the far left side by the coin tray and
>>> it controls the fuel injectors. A relay failure is quite common with
>>> a car of this age. A common problem with the relay is cracked solder
>>> joints and some people have success resoldering them. I chose to
>>> replace mine with a new one from Honda as the contacts inside the
>>> relay were pitted like an old set of distributor points. Note that a
>>> new relay will run you about $40 or so.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>
>> A bad main relay will not set any trouble codes, the main relay
>> controls the fuel pump and when it fails the car will not start,
>> usualy when it gets hot outside. This is not the problem Chuck
>> describes. Sounds more like a fuel pressure problem.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Actually, if just the right solder location cracks, the Main Relay CAN
> set a code 16.
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainr...mainrelay.html
>
> However, this will be accompanied by a no-start, not a flooded
> condition.
>
> OP has not stated the trim level of his Civic. I suspect it is below an
> Si, in which case it has dual-point throttle body injection.
>

Yes, it's a DPI.

> I agree with Grahame here; check the fuel pressure. That is a good place
> to start. Certainly a better one than replacing injectors; Keihin
> injector failure is extremely rare.
>

The fuel pressure checked ok.

> Also, the OP has failed to indicate whether the problem occurs on a cold
> start or when hot. This is important. Is the cold-start injector (the
> upper one) still spraying fuel after five minutes of idling? Has the OP
> tried pulling ONLY the connector for the UPPER injector?
>

I beleive this to be the problem. I don't think it's a leaky injector. I
guess my question should be; What will cause the ECU to power the upper
injector when it shouldn't be powered? A temperature sensor? Will this
cause a Code 16? BTW, I did check the wire harness and cleaned the
ground wire at the thermostat too.

>
>

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic
 

On 2007-08-13, Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> Grahame <grahame.news@rogers.com> wrote in
> news:1187047947.381977.212860@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com:
>
>>> Code 16 often indicates a failed main relay. The main relay is
>>> located under the the dash at the far left side by the coin tray and
>>> it controls the fuel injectors. A relay failure is quite common with
>>> a car of this age. A common problem with the relay is cracked solder
>>> joints and some people have success resoldering them. I chose to
>>> replace mine with a new one from Honda as the contacts inside the
>>> relay were pitted like an old set of distributor points. Note that a
>>> new relay will run you about $40 or so.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>
>> A bad main relay will not set any trouble codes, the main relay
>> controls the fuel pump and when it fails the car will not start,
>> usualy when it gets hot outside. This is not the problem Chuck
>> describes. Sounds more like a fuel pressure problem.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Actually, if just the right solder location cracks, the Main Relay CAN
> set a code 16.
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainr...mainrelay.html
>
> However, this will be accompanied by a no-start, not a flooded
> condition.
>
> OP has not stated the trim level of his Civic. I suspect it is below an
> Si, in which case it has dual-point throttle body injection.
>

Yes, it's a DPI.

> I agree with Grahame here; check the fuel pressure. That is a good place
> to start. Certainly a better one than replacing injectors; Keihin
> injector failure is extremely rare.
>

The fuel pressure checked ok.

> Also, the OP has failed to indicate whether the problem occurs on a cold
> start or when hot. This is important. Is the cold-start injector (the
> upper one) still spraying fuel after five minutes of idling? Has the OP
> tried pulling ONLY the connector for the UPPER injector?
>

I beleive this to be the problem. I don't think it's a leaky injector. I
guess my question should be; What will cause the ECU to power the upper
injector when it shouldn't be powered? A temperature sensor? Will this
cause a Code 16? BTW, I did check the wire harness and cleaned the
ground wire at the thermostat too.

>
>

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic
 

On 2007-08-13, Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> Grahame <grahame.news@rogers.com> wrote in
> news:1187047947.381977.212860@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com:
>
>>> Code 16 often indicates a failed main relay. The main relay is
>>> located under the the dash at the far left side by the coin tray and
>>> it controls the fuel injectors. A relay failure is quite common with
>>> a car of this age. A common problem with the relay is cracked solder
>>> joints and some people have success resoldering them. I chose to
>>> replace mine with a new one from Honda as the contacts inside the
>>> relay were pitted like an old set of distributor points. Note that a
>>> new relay will run you about $40 or so.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>
>> A bad main relay will not set any trouble codes, the main relay
>> controls the fuel pump and when it fails the car will not start,
>> usualy when it gets hot outside. This is not the problem Chuck
>> describes. Sounds more like a fuel pressure problem.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Actually, if just the right solder location cracks, the Main Relay CAN
> set a code 16.
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainr...mainrelay.html
>
> However, this will be accompanied by a no-start, not a flooded
> condition.
>
> OP has not stated the trim level of his Civic. I suspect it is below an
> Si, in which case it has dual-point throttle body injection.
>

Yes, it's a DPI.

> I agree with Grahame here; check the fuel pressure. That is a good place
> to start. Certainly a better one than replacing injectors; Keihin
> injector failure is extremely rare.
>

The fuel pressure checked ok.

> Also, the OP has failed to indicate whether the problem occurs on a cold
> start or when hot. This is important. Is the cold-start injector (the
> upper one) still spraying fuel after five minutes of idling? Has the OP
> tried pulling ONLY the connector for the UPPER injector?
>

I beleive this to be the problem. I don't think it's a leaky injector. I
guess my question should be; What will cause the ECU to power the upper
injector when it shouldn't be powered? A temperature sensor? Will this
cause a Code 16? BTW, I did check the wire harness and cleaned the
ground wire at the thermostat too.

>
>

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic
 

chuck <chuck@invalid.net> wrote in news:bBgwi.11018$9x4.5517@trndny09:


>>
>
> I beleive this to be the problem. I don't think it's a leaky injector.
> I guess my question should be; What will cause the ECU to power the
> upper injector when it shouldn't be powered? A temperature sensor?
> Will this cause a Code 16? BTW, I did check the wire harness and
> cleaned the ground wire at the thermostat too.
>
>>
>>


Pull the connector from the upper injector. See what happens.

How old is your thermostat? Have you tested the ECT sensor for correct
resistance?

If the ECU is powering the upper injector inappropriately, it may have been
fooled into thinking the engine is too cold. Is there any overfueling
problem with the engine stone-cold? Or only when hot?


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic
 

chuck <chuck@invalid.net> wrote in news:bBgwi.11018$9x4.5517@trndny09:


>>
>
> I beleive this to be the problem. I don't think it's a leaky injector.
> I guess my question should be; What will cause the ECU to power the
> upper injector when it shouldn't be powered? A temperature sensor?
> Will this cause a Code 16? BTW, I did check the wire harness and
> cleaned the ground wire at the thermostat too.
>
>>
>>


Pull the connector from the upper injector. See what happens.

How old is your thermostat? Have you tested the ECT sensor for correct
resistance?

If the ECU is powering the upper injector inappropriately, it may have been
fooled into thinking the engine is too cold. Is there any overfueling
problem with the engine stone-cold? Or only when hot?


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/