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- - Code 16 on a '91 Civic (https://www.gtcarz.com/honda-mailing-list-327/code-16-91-civic-299200/)

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 07:43:05 -0400
dgk <dgk@somewhere.com> wrote:

> I have a 91 Accord. Would you suggest replacing the relay on a
> preventive basis? I have no symptoms and want none.

Why not locate the Main Relay, then purchase a spare to keep available
for if/when it does go? Once you know where it is, replacing it is a
pretty quick task...

--
Joe - Registered Linux User #449481

"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..."
- Danny, American History X

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:yNKdnRm-RZifIV7bnZ2dnUVZ_sqinZ2d@speakeasy.net:

> Tegger wrote:
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
>> news:BIOdnXIxPMFV91_bnZ2dnUVZ_uejnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>
>>> Tegger wrote:
>>>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
>>>> news:FK2dnTjnB_60k1zbnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> with the throttle body injection, the injectors are deep set and
>>>>> have 2 or 3 o-ring seals on them. on reinsertion, if you didn't
>>>>> grease properly, i think you snagged one of the o-rings and now
>>>>> you're leaking fuel into the t.b.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The O-ring that generally gets torn/folded is the one that goes
>>>> into the fuel rail. This results in fuel leakage into the engine
>>>> compartment; dangerous and smelly.
>>> but there is no fuel rail on the dpfi - all the workings are housed
>>> within the throttle body.
>>>
>>>> The seal that goes between throttle body and injector is an air
>>>> seal only. They are much larger and are harder to damage.
>>> see above. i'll email you the diagram offline.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I see the diagram, thanks. The DPFI injectors are somewhat different
>> from the port-injected ones.
>> I also see I had it backwards which injector was the main one. It's
>> the UPPER injector that is the main one, not the lower.
>>
>> However, it is not obvious how the O-rings shown could cause fuel
>> leakage if torn.
>
> the fuel circulates in passages in the throttle body and enters the
> injector through ports between seals 1 & 2 [iirc], if you're counting
> from the narrow end. if seal 1 is munged or missing, you're getting
> substantial leakage into the throttle air passage.
>
>> The ones that are indicated on the diagram appear to be
>> air/vibration seals, performing much the same role as the big rubber
>> rings that are used in port injected cars.
>>
>> Two questions:
>>
>> 1) Where is the fuel inlet? There should be a third (much smaller) O-
>> ring where the top of the injector goes into the fuel connection,
>> should there not?
>
> there is a 3rd ring iirc, at the thick end. mainly a dust seal i
> think.
> can't recall for sure - the injector i have is at the bottom of the
> parts bin.
>
>>
>> 2) Does the auxiliary injector supply fuel through a pintle on its
>> end, or does it instead somehow supply fuel through the drilling that
>> angles up from its body?
>>
>>
>
> through the injector end.

I went to the wreckers today to get some trim parts. Wandering around, I
had a peek at a few Civics with DPFI. It was an education, that's for
sure.

On one vehicle, I removed the lower injector to have a look at it
(couldn't break the screws loose on the upper one due to poor leverage
and bad hammering angle; I didn't bring enough tools).

I see now what you mean. The fuel line goes into the throttle body, not
the injectors. On the injector I pulled, there is a series of narrow
rectangular screened "windows" arrayed around the injector between the
two O-rings. These admit fuel through the screens. The outer O-ring is
quite thick and robust, and, I would think, hard to tear.

> technically, that's not the "pintle" - that
> term refers to the trumpet shaped protrusion on the end of the
> injector pin that forms the spray pattern when the pin moves to open.
> a lot of diesel injectors don't have pintles.

The injector I pulled had a shallow green plastic "trumpet" surrounding
the nozzle and pin. Would this not be the "pintle"?

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Code 16 on a '91 Civic

On 2007-08-14, chuck <chuck@invalid.net> wrote:
> On 2007-08-13, Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>> Grahame <grahame.news@rogers.com> wrote in
>> news:1187047947.381977.212860@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com:
>>
>>>> Code 16 often indicates a failed main relay. The main relay is
>>>> located under the the dash at the far left side by the coin tray and
>>>> it controls the fuel injectors. A relay failure is quite common with
>>>> a car of this age. A common problem with the relay is cracked solder
>>>> joints and some people have success resoldering them. I chose to
>>>> replace mine with a new one from Honda as the contacts inside the
>>>> relay were pitted like an old set of distributor points. Note that a
>>>> new relay will run you about $40 or so.
>>>>
>>>> Eric
>>>
>>> A bad main relay will not set any trouble codes, the main relay
>>> controls the fuel pump and when it fails the car will not start,
>>> usualy when it gets hot outside. This is not the problem Chuck
>>> describes. Sounds more like a fuel pressure problem.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Actually, if just the right solder location cracks, the Main Relay CAN
>> set a code 16.
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainr...mainrelay.html
>>
>> However, this will be accompanied by a no-start, not a flooded
>> condition.
>>
>> OP has not stated the trim level of his Civic. I suspect it is below an
>> Si, in which case it has dual-point throttle body injection.
>>
>
> Yes, it's a DPI.
>
>> I agree with Grahame here; check the fuel pressure. That is a good place
>> to start. Certainly a better one than replacing injectors; Keihin
>> injector failure is extremely rare.
>>
>
> The fuel pressure checked ok.
>
>> Also, the OP has failed to indicate whether the problem occurs on a cold
>> start or when hot. This is important. Is the cold-start injector (the
>> upper one) still spraying fuel after five minutes of idling? Has the OP
>> tried pulling ONLY the connector for the UPPER injector?
>>
>
> I beleive this to be the problem. I don't think it's a leaky injector. I
> guess my question should be; What will cause the ECU to power the upper
> injector when it shouldn't be powered? A temperature sensor? Will this
> cause a Code 16? BTW, I did check the wire harness and cleaned the
> ground wire at the thermostat too.
>
>>
>>

I hate to bring this up again, but this is my winter beater and I'd hate
to have it fail in the winter. I've been driving it about 1-1/2 months
now with no problems, but I haven't done anything to fix it either.

Maybe I have a clue to the problem. This car is used mainly to transport
the family snowboarding throughout the winter. It gets lots of moisture
on/in the carpets from the snow. Usually, the thing starts acting up 2
months into the season. I wonder if the moisture combined with the ECU
location could be giving me problems. I did pull the ECU cover and
didn't see any signs of water. If this scenario is feasible, I wonder if
I could install some sort of vapor barrier around the ECU that would
still allow it to ventilate.

BTW, the moisture problem is extreme. Every fall when I pull this car
out of the field, I have to scrub the whole interior with bleach to
remove the mold.

Thanks for any advice.