Tegger

chuck <chuck@invalid.net> wrote in news:bBgwi.11018$9x4.5517@trndny09:


>>
>
> I beleive this to be the problem. I don't think it's a leaky injector.
> I guess my question should be; What will cause the ECU to power the
> upper injector when it shouldn't be powered? A temperature sensor?
> Will this cause a Code 16? BTW, I did check the wire harness and
> cleaned the ground wire at the thermostat too.
>
>>
>>


Pull the connector from the upper injector. See what happens.

How old is your thermostat? Have you tested the ECT sensor for correct
resistance?

If the ECU is powering the upper injector inappropriately, it may have been
fooled into thinking the engine is too cold. Is there any overfueling
problem with the engine stone-cold? Or only when hot?


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:FK2dnTjnB_60k1zbnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:


>
> with the throttle body injection, the injectors are deep set and have
> 2 or 3 o-ring seals on them. on reinsertion, if you didn't grease
> properly, i think you snagged one of the o-rings and now you're
> leaking fuel into the t.b.



The O-ring that generally gets torn/folded is the one that goes into the
fuel rail. This results in fuel leakage into the engine compartment;
dangerous and smelly.

The seal that goes between throttle body and injector is an air seal only.
They are much larger and are harder to damage.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:FK2dnTjnB_60k1zbnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:


>
> with the throttle body injection, the injectors are deep set and have
> 2 or 3 o-ring seals on them. on reinsertion, if you didn't grease
> properly, i think you snagged one of the o-rings and now you're
> leaking fuel into the t.b.



The O-ring that generally gets torn/folded is the one that goes into the
fuel rail. This results in fuel leakage into the engine compartment;
dangerous and smelly.

The seal that goes between throttle body and injector is an air seal only.
They are much larger and are harder to damage.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:FK2dnTjnB_60k1zbnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:


>
> with the throttle body injection, the injectors are deep set and have
> 2 or 3 o-ring seals on them. on reinsertion, if you didn't grease
> properly, i think you snagged one of the o-rings and now you're
> leaking fuel into the t.b.



The O-ring that generally gets torn/folded is the one that goes into the
fuel rail. This results in fuel leakage into the engine compartment;
dangerous and smelly.

The seal that goes between throttle body and injector is an air seal only.
They are much larger and are harder to damage.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

jim beam

Tegger wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:FK2dnTjnB_60k1zbnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>
>> with the throttle body injection, the injectors are deep set and have
>> 2 or 3 o-ring seals on them. on reinsertion, if you didn't grease
>> properly, i think you snagged one of the o-rings and now you're
>> leaking fuel into the t.b.
>
>
>
> The O-ring that generally gets torn/folded is the one that goes into the
> fuel rail. This results in fuel leakage into the engine compartment;
> dangerous and smelly.

but there is no fuel rail on the dpfi - all the workings are housed
within the throttle body.

>
> The seal that goes between throttle body and injector is an air seal only.
> They are much larger and are harder to damage.

see above. i'll email you the diagram offline.

jim beam

Tegger wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:FK2dnTjnB_60k1zbnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>
>> with the throttle body injection, the injectors are deep set and have
>> 2 or 3 o-ring seals on them. on reinsertion, if you didn't grease
>> properly, i think you snagged one of the o-rings and now you're
>> leaking fuel into the t.b.
>
>
>
> The O-ring that generally gets torn/folded is the one that goes into the
> fuel rail. This results in fuel leakage into the engine compartment;
> dangerous and smelly.

but there is no fuel rail on the dpfi - all the workings are housed
within the throttle body.

>
> The seal that goes between throttle body and injector is an air seal only.
> They are much larger and are harder to damage.

see above. i'll email you the diagram offline.

jim beam

Tegger wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:FK2dnTjnB_60k1zbnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>
>> with the throttle body injection, the injectors are deep set and have
>> 2 or 3 o-ring seals on them. on reinsertion, if you didn't grease
>> properly, i think you snagged one of the o-rings and now you're
>> leaking fuel into the t.b.
>
>
>
> The O-ring that generally gets torn/folded is the one that goes into the
> fuel rail. This results in fuel leakage into the engine compartment;
> dangerous and smelly.

but there is no fuel rail on the dpfi - all the workings are housed
within the throttle body.

>
> The seal that goes between throttle body and injector is an air seal only.
> They are much larger and are harder to damage.

see above. i'll email you the diagram offline.

Tegger

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:BIOdnXIxPMFV91_bnZ2dnUVZ_uejnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Tegger wrote:
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
>> news:FK2dnTjnB_60k1zbnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>
>>
>>> with the throttle body injection, the injectors are deep set and
>>> have 2 or 3 o-ring seals on them. on reinsertion, if you didn't
>>> grease properly, i think you snagged one of the o-rings and now
>>> you're leaking fuel into the t.b.
>>
>>
>>
>> The O-ring that generally gets torn/folded is the one that goes into
>> the fuel rail. This results in fuel leakage into the engine
>> compartment; dangerous and smelly.
>
> but there is no fuel rail on the dpfi - all the workings are housed
> within the throttle body.
>
>>
>> The seal that goes between throttle body and injector is an air seal
>> only. They are much larger and are harder to damage.
>
> see above. i'll email you the diagram offline.
>


I see the diagram, thanks. The DPFI injectors are somewhat different
from the port-injected ones.
I also see I had it backwards which injector was the main one. It's the
UPPER injector that is the main one, not the lower.

However, it is not obvious how the O-rings shown could cause fuel
leakage if torn. The ones that are indicated on the diagram appear to be
air/vibration seals, performing much the same role as the big rubber
rings that are used in port injected cars.

Two questions:

1) Where is the fuel inlet? There should be a third (much smaller) O-
ring where the top of the injector goes into the fuel connection, should
there not?

2) Does the auxiliary injector supply fuel through a pintle on its end,
or does it instead somehow supply fuel through the drilling that angles
up from its body?


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:BIOdnXIxPMFV91_bnZ2dnUVZ_uejnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Tegger wrote:
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
>> news:FK2dnTjnB_60k1zbnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>
>>
>>> with the throttle body injection, the injectors are deep set and
>>> have 2 or 3 o-ring seals on them. on reinsertion, if you didn't
>>> grease properly, i think you snagged one of the o-rings and now
>>> you're leaking fuel into the t.b.
>>
>>
>>
>> The O-ring that generally gets torn/folded is the one that goes into
>> the fuel rail. This results in fuel leakage into the engine
>> compartment; dangerous and smelly.
>
> but there is no fuel rail on the dpfi - all the workings are housed
> within the throttle body.
>
>>
>> The seal that goes between throttle body and injector is an air seal
>> only. They are much larger and are harder to damage.
>
> see above. i'll email you the diagram offline.
>


I see the diagram, thanks. The DPFI injectors are somewhat different
from the port-injected ones.
I also see I had it backwards which injector was the main one. It's the
UPPER injector that is the main one, not the lower.

However, it is not obvious how the O-rings shown could cause fuel
leakage if torn. The ones that are indicated on the diagram appear to be
air/vibration seals, performing much the same role as the big rubber
rings that are used in port injected cars.

Two questions:

1) Where is the fuel inlet? There should be a third (much smaller) O-
ring where the top of the injector goes into the fuel connection, should
there not?

2) Does the auxiliary injector supply fuel through a pintle on its end,
or does it instead somehow supply fuel through the drilling that angles
up from its body?


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:BIOdnXIxPMFV91_bnZ2dnUVZ_uejnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Tegger wrote:
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
>> news:FK2dnTjnB_60k1zbnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>
>>
>>> with the throttle body injection, the injectors are deep set and
>>> have 2 or 3 o-ring seals on them. on reinsertion, if you didn't
>>> grease properly, i think you snagged one of the o-rings and now
>>> you're leaking fuel into the t.b.
>>
>>
>>
>> The O-ring that generally gets torn/folded is the one that goes into
>> the fuel rail. This results in fuel leakage into the engine
>> compartment; dangerous and smelly.
>
> but there is no fuel rail on the dpfi - all the workings are housed
> within the throttle body.
>
>>
>> The seal that goes between throttle body and injector is an air seal
>> only. They are much larger and are harder to damage.
>
> see above. i'll email you the diagram offline.
>


I see the diagram, thanks. The DPFI injectors are somewhat different
from the port-injected ones.
I also see I had it backwards which injector was the main one. It's the
UPPER injector that is the main one, not the lower.

However, it is not obvious how the O-rings shown could cause fuel
leakage if torn. The ones that are indicated on the diagram appear to be
air/vibration seals, performing much the same role as the big rubber
rings that are used in port injected cars.

Two questions:

1) Where is the fuel inlet? There should be a third (much smaller) O-
ring where the top of the injector goes into the fuel connection, should
there not?

2) Does the auxiliary injector supply fuel through a pintle on its end,
or does it instead somehow supply fuel through the drilling that angles
up from its body?


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

jim beam

Tegger wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:BIOdnXIxPMFV91_bnZ2dnUVZ_uejnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> Tegger wrote:
>>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
>>> news:FK2dnTjnB_60k1zbnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>
>>>
>>>> with the throttle body injection, the injectors are deep set and
>>>> have 2 or 3 o-ring seals on them. on reinsertion, if you didn't
>>>> grease properly, i think you snagged one of the o-rings and now
>>>> you're leaking fuel into the t.b.
>>>
>>>
>>> The O-ring that generally gets torn/folded is the one that goes into
>>> the fuel rail. This results in fuel leakage into the engine
>>> compartment; dangerous and smelly.
>> but there is no fuel rail on the dpfi - all the workings are housed
>> within the throttle body.
>>
>>> The seal that goes between throttle body and injector is an air seal
>>> only. They are much larger and are harder to damage.
>> see above. i'll email you the diagram offline.
>>
>
>
> I see the diagram, thanks. The DPFI injectors are somewhat different
> from the port-injected ones.
> I also see I had it backwards which injector was the main one. It's the
> UPPER injector that is the main one, not the lower.
>
> However, it is not obvious how the O-rings shown could cause fuel
> leakage if torn.

the fuel circulates in passages in the throttle body and enters the
injector through ports between seals 1 & 2 [iirc], if you're counting
from the narrow end. if seal 1 is munged or missing, you're getting
substantial leakage into the throttle air passage.

> The ones that are indicated on the diagram appear to be
> air/vibration seals, performing much the same role as the big rubber
> rings that are used in port injected cars.
>
> Two questions:
>
> 1) Where is the fuel inlet? There should be a third (much smaller) O-
> ring where the top of the injector goes into the fuel connection, should
> there not?

there is a 3rd ring iirc, at the thick end. mainly a dust seal i think.
can't recall for sure - the injector i have is at the bottom of the
parts bin.

>
> 2) Does the auxiliary injector supply fuel through a pintle on its end,
> or does it instead somehow supply fuel through the drilling that angles
> up from its body?
>
>

through the injector end. technically, that's not the "pintle" - that
term refers to the trumpet shaped protrusion on the end of the injector
pin that forms the spray pattern when the pin moves to open. a lot of
diesel injectors don't have pintles.

jim beam

Tegger wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:BIOdnXIxPMFV91_bnZ2dnUVZ_uejnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> Tegger wrote:
>>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
>>> news:FK2dnTjnB_60k1zbnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>
>>>
>>>> with the throttle body injection, the injectors are deep set and
>>>> have 2 or 3 o-ring seals on them. on reinsertion, if you didn't
>>>> grease properly, i think you snagged one of the o-rings and now
>>>> you're leaking fuel into the t.b.
>>>
>>>
>>> The O-ring that generally gets torn/folded is the one that goes into
>>> the fuel rail. This results in fuel leakage into the engine
>>> compartment; dangerous and smelly.
>> but there is no fuel rail on the dpfi - all the workings are housed
>> within the throttle body.
>>
>>> The seal that goes between throttle body and injector is an air seal
>>> only. They are much larger and are harder to damage.
>> see above. i'll email you the diagram offline.
>>
>
>
> I see the diagram, thanks. The DPFI injectors are somewhat different
> from the port-injected ones.
> I also see I had it backwards which injector was the main one. It's the
> UPPER injector that is the main one, not the lower.
>
> However, it is not obvious how the O-rings shown could cause fuel
> leakage if torn.

the fuel circulates in passages in the throttle body and enters the
injector through ports between seals 1 & 2 [iirc], if you're counting
from the narrow end. if seal 1 is munged or missing, you're getting
substantial leakage into the throttle air passage.

> The ones that are indicated on the diagram appear to be
> air/vibration seals, performing much the same role as the big rubber
> rings that are used in port injected cars.
>
> Two questions:
>
> 1) Where is the fuel inlet? There should be a third (much smaller) O-
> ring where the top of the injector goes into the fuel connection, should
> there not?

there is a 3rd ring iirc, at the thick end. mainly a dust seal i think.
can't recall for sure - the injector i have is at the bottom of the
parts bin.

>
> 2) Does the auxiliary injector supply fuel through a pintle on its end,
> or does it instead somehow supply fuel through the drilling that angles
> up from its body?
>
>

through the injector end. technically, that's not the "pintle" - that
term refers to the trumpet shaped protrusion on the end of the injector
pin that forms the spray pattern when the pin moves to open. a lot of
diesel injectors don't have pintles.

jim beam

Tegger wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:BIOdnXIxPMFV91_bnZ2dnUVZ_uejnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> Tegger wrote:
>>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
>>> news:FK2dnTjnB_60k1zbnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>
>>>
>>>> with the throttle body injection, the injectors are deep set and
>>>> have 2 or 3 o-ring seals on them. on reinsertion, if you didn't
>>>> grease properly, i think you snagged one of the o-rings and now
>>>> you're leaking fuel into the t.b.
>>>
>>>
>>> The O-ring that generally gets torn/folded is the one that goes into
>>> the fuel rail. This results in fuel leakage into the engine
>>> compartment; dangerous and smelly.
>> but there is no fuel rail on the dpfi - all the workings are housed
>> within the throttle body.
>>
>>> The seal that goes between throttle body and injector is an air seal
>>> only. They are much larger and are harder to damage.
>> see above. i'll email you the diagram offline.
>>
>
>
> I see the diagram, thanks. The DPFI injectors are somewhat different
> from the port-injected ones.
> I also see I had it backwards which injector was the main one. It's the
> UPPER injector that is the main one, not the lower.
>
> However, it is not obvious how the O-rings shown could cause fuel
> leakage if torn.

the fuel circulates in passages in the throttle body and enters the
injector through ports between seals 1 & 2 [iirc], if you're counting
from the narrow end. if seal 1 is munged or missing, you're getting
substantial leakage into the throttle air passage.

> The ones that are indicated on the diagram appear to be
> air/vibration seals, performing much the same role as the big rubber
> rings that are used in port injected cars.
>
> Two questions:
>
> 1) Where is the fuel inlet? There should be a third (much smaller) O-
> ring where the top of the injector goes into the fuel connection, should
> there not?

there is a 3rd ring iirc, at the thick end. mainly a dust seal i think.
can't recall for sure - the injector i have is at the bottom of the
parts bin.

>
> 2) Does the auxiliary injector supply fuel through a pintle on its end,
> or does it instead somehow supply fuel through the drilling that angles
> up from its body?
>
>

through the injector end. technically, that's not the "pintle" - that
term refers to the trumpet shaped protrusion on the end of the injector
pin that forms the spray pattern when the pin moves to open. a lot of
diesel injectors don't have pintles.

Joe LaVigne

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 07:43:05 -0400
dgk <dgk@somewhere.com> wrote:

> I have a 91 Accord. Would you suggest replacing the relay on a
> preventive basis? I have no symptoms and want none.

Why not locate the Main Relay, then purchase a spare to keep available
for if/when it does go? Once you know where it is, replacing it is a
pretty quick task...


--
Joe - Registered Linux User #449481

"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..."
- Danny, American History X

Joe LaVigne

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 07:43:05 -0400
dgk <dgk@somewhere.com> wrote:

> I have a 91 Accord. Would you suggest replacing the relay on a
> preventive basis? I have no symptoms and want none.

Why not locate the Main Relay, then purchase a spare to keep available
for if/when it does go? Once you know where it is, replacing it is a
pretty quick task...


--
Joe - Registered Linux User #449481

"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..."
- Danny, American History X