griffin

Ya, I actually am going to be shopping from now until February for one. Of
the four Toyota dealerships here, one of them is so shifty I wouldn't even
consider letting them look at a tricycle because they'd probably tell me it
needed $2000 in repairs. There's one here that doesn't seem too bad;
however, I'm going to take the next six months to try and locate one
privately so as to avoid being raped.

As for repair shops ...I just hope anything that wants to break does so
before warranty expiration ...otherwise I just have to hope that it
maintains it's Corolla-Reliability factor. I'm scared to take them to any
joeblow repair shop and even more scared to take it to the Toyota repair
shop - not because of the lack of quality repairs but because I don't have
time for a second job to pay for them.

griffin
'97 Corolla SD
'85 Jeep CJ7



"JM" <jmattis@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:de3b9c1b.0408230828.7dcac63c@posting.google.c om...
> Corolla, definitely. I rented one of these for several days 2 years
> ago. Fast, roomy, comfortable, great gas mileage. The Civic is,
> unfortunately, just a "cheap secretary's car" as one car publication
> described it (no offense to secretaries, God bless them).
>
> But the Civic is just no where near the refinement standard set by the
> Accord.
>
> As a daily driver, I know that I could live with a Corolla. I
> wouldn't say that about a Civic despite my Honda brand loyalty.
>
> Unfortunately, my take is that Toyota dealers on average are ranked
> even lower than Honda dealers for satisfaction.
>
> JM.

Joseph Oberlander

griffin wrote:

> I'm looking to purchase a new(er) car at the end of summer for around
> $16-22,000 CDN ($12-16,500 US) and have been looking at these four options:
>
> 1. 2003 Toyota Matrix XRS or XR B-pack
> 2. 2004/2005 Toyota Corollla B-Pack
> 3. 1998-2002 Honda Civic SI
> 4. 2001-2003 Honda Civic DX-G
>
> I previously owned a 1993 Saturn SL1 and liked the luxury-type features
> (A/C, pdl, pw, pm, comfy seats, cruise, tilt, etc) and a Jeep YJ
> (convertible - openness). I currently drive a 1997 Toyota Corolla SD, the
> plain-jane no frill model. It doesn't even have A/C. I have a 15 month old
> child and A/C is kinda needed. My Corolla is also very uncomfy and not
> suitable for long drives.

Okay - you have kid(s? in a few years?)

> In my new car, I want some frills, like keyless entry, pw, sunroof would be
> AWESOME!, cruise control, etc. Price is also a factor - I'm a full-time dad
> raising my child and the more money saved the better. I want reliability,
> practicality, comfort, gas mileage, etc. It's going to be for daily driving
> mostly in the city. I live in the cold climate of Canada which ranges from
> +30C to -30C (-22F to 86F) so heat and coolness are big factors as well as
> handling in ice/snow/rain.

The best option is a Matrix. You get a Corolla drivetrain with
a mini-suv body on it. Bang-for-the buck, it's the best option
out there*

> I'm looking for honest and unbiased opinions. I'm posting this in Honda &
> Toyota newsgroups and I know people in their respective ones no-doubt prefer
> the company they are driving, but please be as impartial as possible. I only
> plan to buy one new car in the next 10-15 years and this will be it. Tell me
> your gripes and your praises for any of the models you own(ed) above or have
> heard about. All comments appreciated!!

Ah. This may change things a bit. 10-15 year reliability is - well,
that requires a different type of car like a Camry or Avalon or LeSabre
or Accord V6 or... Econoboxes aren't designed to last much more than
10 years before they become regular residents at the local repair shop.

If you want a family car that will last 15 years, get a stock LeSabre.
It has all of the features stock as a loaded Corolla, plus ABS and
pther goodies. With rebates, it's just about $21-$22K and is
actually a decent car. A stock Crown Vic would be my second choice
as you can also get one for $20K after rebates and they are massively
overbuilt for fleet use. For personal transportation, they work
very well. Just don't get a used one - they are 90%+ abused fleet
vehicles.

The Avalon is also a superb car that's very VERY simmilar to
the LeSabre, but Toyota isn't offering the deals like GM is,
so it drops to third place. $5K is a big deal. Still a
MUCH MUCH MUCH better car than a Corolla or Matrix can ever hope
to be.

Or, just get a car for 5-8 years or so. That's a nice econobox.

> My current views are:
> 1. The Matrix seems very practical for everything. Reliability is hard to
> tell because they are relatively new but they seem OK? They may be a bit big
> tho and I wonder about fuel consumption? Pricy, too, for the higher models.

Then I have a solution for you.

The same exact car is sold under the GM badge. Same assembly line,
same engine. Bit different interior features(minor) - but - GM's
amazing financing and rebates. This drops the price of the car
down to just over what an *ECHO* costs. The Pontical Vibe is
the best deal out there right now. Toyota quality, GM pricing.

But - again, it's not a true 15 year solution. You need a bigger,
tougher built car for that.

Joseph Oberlander

griffin wrote:

> I'm looking to purchase a new(er) car at the end of summer for around
> $16-22,000 CDN ($12-16,500 US) and have been looking at these four options:
>
> 1. 2003 Toyota Matrix XRS or XR B-pack
> 2. 2004/2005 Toyota Corollla B-Pack
> 3. 1998-2002 Honda Civic SI
> 4. 2001-2003 Honda Civic DX-G
>
> I previously owned a 1993 Saturn SL1 and liked the luxury-type features
> (A/C, pdl, pw, pm, comfy seats, cruise, tilt, etc) and a Jeep YJ
> (convertible - openness). I currently drive a 1997 Toyota Corolla SD, the
> plain-jane no frill model. It doesn't even have A/C. I have a 15 month old
> child and A/C is kinda needed. My Corolla is also very uncomfy and not
> suitable for long drives.

Okay - you have kid(s? in a few years?)

> In my new car, I want some frills, like keyless entry, pw, sunroof would be
> AWESOME!, cruise control, etc. Price is also a factor - I'm a full-time dad
> raising my child and the more money saved the better. I want reliability,
> practicality, comfort, gas mileage, etc. It's going to be for daily driving
> mostly in the city. I live in the cold climate of Canada which ranges from
> +30C to -30C (-22F to 86F) so heat and coolness are big factors as well as
> handling in ice/snow/rain.

The best option is a Matrix. You get a Corolla drivetrain with
a mini-suv body on it. Bang-for-the buck, it's the best option
out there*

> I'm looking for honest and unbiased opinions. I'm posting this in Honda &
> Toyota newsgroups and I know people in their respective ones no-doubt prefer
> the company they are driving, but please be as impartial as possible. I only
> plan to buy one new car in the next 10-15 years and this will be it. Tell me
> your gripes and your praises for any of the models you own(ed) above or have
> heard about. All comments appreciated!!

Ah. This may change things a bit. 10-15 year reliability is - well,
that requires a different type of car like a Camry or Avalon or LeSabre
or Accord V6 or... Econoboxes aren't designed to last much more than
10 years before they become regular residents at the local repair shop.

If you want a family car that will last 15 years, get a stock LeSabre.
It has all of the features stock as a loaded Corolla, plus ABS and
pther goodies. With rebates, it's just about $21-$22K and is
actually a decent car. A stock Crown Vic would be my second choice
as you can also get one for $20K after rebates and they are massively
overbuilt for fleet use. For personal transportation, they work
very well. Just don't get a used one - they are 90%+ abused fleet
vehicles.

The Avalon is also a superb car that's very VERY simmilar to
the LeSabre, but Toyota isn't offering the deals like GM is,
so it drops to third place. $5K is a big deal. Still a
MUCH MUCH MUCH better car than a Corolla or Matrix can ever hope
to be.

Or, just get a car for 5-8 years or so. That's a nice econobox.

> My current views are:
> 1. The Matrix seems very practical for everything. Reliability is hard to
> tell because they are relatively new but they seem OK? They may be a bit big
> tho and I wonder about fuel consumption? Pricy, too, for the higher models.

Then I have a solution for you.

The same exact car is sold under the GM badge. Same assembly line,
same engine. Bit different interior features(minor) - but - GM's
amazing financing and rebates. This drops the price of the car
down to just over what an *ECHO* costs. The Pontical Vibe is
the best deal out there right now. Toyota quality, GM pricing.

But - again, it's not a true 15 year solution. You need a bigger,
tougher built car for that.

Joseph Oberlander

mike wrote:

>>>Gawd...who would buy a PT Cruiser (ie Neon)?
>>>
>>>Sooooo cheap on the inside...
>>>
>>>Yuckkkkkkk
>>>
>>>
>>>Scott in Florida
>>
>>Scott I agree , but the quality is not bad we see very very few problems
>>with them.
>
>
> they finally redesigned that head gasket?

No. Chrysler also didn't fix their transmissions.
You'd have to be a class-A fool to but anything from them
other than a Viper or Wrangler - the only two good vehicles
they make.

Joseph Oberlander

mike wrote:

>>>Gawd...who would buy a PT Cruiser (ie Neon)?
>>>
>>>Sooooo cheap on the inside...
>>>
>>>Yuckkkkkkk
>>>
>>>
>>>Scott in Florida
>>
>>Scott I agree , but the quality is not bad we see very very few problems
>>with them.
>
>
> they finally redesigned that head gasket?

No. Chrysler also didn't fix their transmissions.
You'd have to be a class-A fool to but anything from them
other than a Viper or Wrangler - the only two good vehicles
they make.

Joseph Oberlander

Nightdude wrote:

> More than a Civic...
>
> It comes with 4 wheel disc brakes, ABS is standard, side airbag standard,
> possiblity with perforated leather
> w/heated seats, automatic climate control and you can get a skirt package
> right now for 1200$ or so more.
> And sunroof.

2004 Vibe(base model, automatic): $13.5K after rebates. The trick
then is to toss in the supercharger and turn it into an automatic
version of the GT - faster than the GT and less $$ on insurance.

Or just get one for $13.5K(13K with manual) - there's just no
better econobox deal out there right now.

Or...
2004 LeSabre Custom. No options - just a stock model.
ABS, A/C, automatic, and so on - all standard. I added only the
Touring Suspension, which is important. Comes with a CD radio
already. It has traction control, a computer with a HUD
(displays mph on the windshield) as well. Trip mileage,
diagnostics, mpg, and so on - it's a SLICK computer system
that you don't usually find on anything other than cars like
Volvos and Lexus.

Oh - it also gets 27mpg highway. 3500lbs, 210HP, and still
gets small car highway mileage.

LIST BASE TMV
Total with Options and Delivery $27,050 $24,796 $25,091
Incentives & Rebates -$5,000
Customer Cash Adjusted True Market Value $20,091

That's suddenly worth considering. $20K for a car that's
comparable to an Avalon and twice what a typical econobox
is? $5K in rebates is a lot of repairs and gas.

*note* - you know, I don't really like GM products much - I'm
more of an IS300 Sportcross fan myself. But - my old LeSabre
still runs. At 18 years old and 150K it still won't come
close to actually dying. As much as I didn't want to admit
it - the thing is actually a very reliable car. Lol. Only
my old Volvo 240 actually cost me less to maintain.

The new ones are very reliable as well - the engine is bulletproof.
Probably one of the best engines ever made, in fact. Maintainence
is actually LESS expensive than on a Camry or Accord V6 last I
checked. Superb family car - really the only large car that
GM makes that is a good choice. Way better than a Saturn.

Joseph Oberlander

Nightdude wrote:

> More than a Civic...
>
> It comes with 4 wheel disc brakes, ABS is standard, side airbag standard,
> possiblity with perforated leather
> w/heated seats, automatic climate control and you can get a skirt package
> right now for 1200$ or so more.
> And sunroof.

2004 Vibe(base model, automatic): $13.5K after rebates. The trick
then is to toss in the supercharger and turn it into an automatic
version of the GT - faster than the GT and less $$ on insurance.

Or just get one for $13.5K(13K with manual) - there's just no
better econobox deal out there right now.

Or...
2004 LeSabre Custom. No options - just a stock model.
ABS, A/C, automatic, and so on - all standard. I added only the
Touring Suspension, which is important. Comes with a CD radio
already. It has traction control, a computer with a HUD
(displays mph on the windshield) as well. Trip mileage,
diagnostics, mpg, and so on - it's a SLICK computer system
that you don't usually find on anything other than cars like
Volvos and Lexus.

Oh - it also gets 27mpg highway. 3500lbs, 210HP, and still
gets small car highway mileage.

LIST BASE TMV
Total with Options and Delivery $27,050 $24,796 $25,091
Incentives & Rebates -$5,000
Customer Cash Adjusted True Market Value $20,091

That's suddenly worth considering. $20K for a car that's
comparable to an Avalon and twice what a typical econobox
is? $5K in rebates is a lot of repairs and gas.

*note* - you know, I don't really like GM products much - I'm
more of an IS300 Sportcross fan myself. But - my old LeSabre
still runs. At 18 years old and 150K it still won't come
close to actually dying. As much as I didn't want to admit
it - the thing is actually a very reliable car. Lol. Only
my old Volvo 240 actually cost me less to maintain.

The new ones are very reliable as well - the engine is bulletproof.
Probably one of the best engines ever made, in fact. Maintainence
is actually LESS expensive than on a Camry or Accord V6 last I
checked. Superb family car - really the only large car that
GM makes that is a good choice. Way better than a Saturn.

Ghislain

You are using US instead of Canadian prices. A LeSabre Custom is $34K in
Canada. Even with rebates it will definitely cost more than $20K. However
you can get a base Vibe for approximately $20K plus GST and PST.

"Joseph Oberlander" <josephoberlander@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1fsWc.10984$3O3.4282@newsread2.news.pas.earth link.net...
>
>
> Nightdude wrote:
>
> > More than a Civic...
> >
> > It comes with 4 wheel disc brakes, ABS is standard, side airbag
standard,
> > possiblity with perforated leather
> > w/heated seats, automatic climate control and you can get a skirt
package
> > right now for 1200$ or so more.
> > And sunroof.
>
> 2004 Vibe(base model, automatic): $13.5K after rebates. The trick
> then is to toss in the supercharger and turn it into an automatic
> version of the GT - faster than the GT and less $$ on insurance.
>
> Or just get one for $13.5K(13K with manual) - there's just no
> better econobox deal out there right now.
>
> Or...
> 2004 LeSabre Custom. No options - just a stock model.
> ABS, A/C, automatic, and so on - all standard. I added only the
> Touring Suspension, which is important. Comes with a CD radio
> already. It has traction control, a computer with a HUD
> (displays mph on the windshield) as well. Trip mileage,
> diagnostics, mpg, and so on - it's a SLICK computer system
> that you don't usually find on anything other than cars like
> Volvos and Lexus.
>
> Oh - it also gets 27mpg highway. 3500lbs, 210HP, and still
> gets small car highway mileage.
>
> LIST BASE TMV
> Total with Options and Delivery $27,050 $24,796 $25,091
> Incentives & Rebates -$5,000
> Customer Cash Adjusted True Market Value $20,091
>
> That's suddenly worth considering. $20K for a car that's
> comparable to an Avalon and twice what a typical econobox
> is? $5K in rebates is a lot of repairs and gas.
>
> *note* - you know, I don't really like GM products much - I'm
> more of an IS300 Sportcross fan myself. But - my old LeSabre
> still runs. At 18 years old and 150K it still won't come
> close to actually dying. As much as I didn't want to admit
> it - the thing is actually a very reliable car. Lol. Only
> my old Volvo 240 actually cost me less to maintain.
>
> The new ones are very reliable as well - the engine is bulletproof.
> Probably one of the best engines ever made, in fact. Maintainence
> is actually LESS expensive than on a Camry or Accord V6 last I
> checked. Superb family car - really the only large car that
> GM makes that is a good choice. Way better than a Saturn.
>

Ghislain

You are using US instead of Canadian prices. A LeSabre Custom is $34K in
Canada. Even with rebates it will definitely cost more than $20K. However
you can get a base Vibe for approximately $20K plus GST and PST.

"Joseph Oberlander" <josephoberlander@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1fsWc.10984$3O3.4282@newsread2.news.pas.earth link.net...
>
>
> Nightdude wrote:
>
> > More than a Civic...
> >
> > It comes with 4 wheel disc brakes, ABS is standard, side airbag
standard,
> > possiblity with perforated leather
> > w/heated seats, automatic climate control and you can get a skirt
package
> > right now for 1200$ or so more.
> > And sunroof.
>
> 2004 Vibe(base model, automatic): $13.5K after rebates. The trick
> then is to toss in the supercharger and turn it into an automatic
> version of the GT - faster than the GT and less $$ on insurance.
>
> Or just get one for $13.5K(13K with manual) - there's just no
> better econobox deal out there right now.
>
> Or...
> 2004 LeSabre Custom. No options - just a stock model.
> ABS, A/C, automatic, and so on - all standard. I added only the
> Touring Suspension, which is important. Comes with a CD radio
> already. It has traction control, a computer with a HUD
> (displays mph on the windshield) as well. Trip mileage,
> diagnostics, mpg, and so on - it's a SLICK computer system
> that you don't usually find on anything other than cars like
> Volvos and Lexus.
>
> Oh - it also gets 27mpg highway. 3500lbs, 210HP, and still
> gets small car highway mileage.
>
> LIST BASE TMV
> Total with Options and Delivery $27,050 $24,796 $25,091
> Incentives & Rebates -$5,000
> Customer Cash Adjusted True Market Value $20,091
>
> That's suddenly worth considering. $20K for a car that's
> comparable to an Avalon and twice what a typical econobox
> is? $5K in rebates is a lot of repairs and gas.
>
> *note* - you know, I don't really like GM products much - I'm
> more of an IS300 Sportcross fan myself. But - my old LeSabre
> still runs. At 18 years old and 150K it still won't come
> close to actually dying. As much as I didn't want to admit
> it - the thing is actually a very reliable car. Lol. Only
> my old Volvo 240 actually cost me less to maintain.
>
> The new ones are very reliable as well - the engine is bulletproof.
> Probably one of the best engines ever made, in fact. Maintainence
> is actually LESS expensive than on a Camry or Accord V6 last I
> checked. Superb family car - really the only large car that
> GM makes that is a good choice. Way better than a Saturn.
>

griffin

Or I can just get a B-pack Corolla Sport that has all of the bells and
whistles. I wouldn't want a HUD anyway ...too complicated and if it ever
broke it'd bankrupt me getting it fixed.

And yea ...convert that to CDN $ and the prices are much different.

"Ghislain" <ghislaing@potsi.com-ISP_Name_Reversed> wrote in message
news:JGtWc.53712$vO1.281247@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> You are using US instead of Canadian prices. A LeSabre Custom is $34K in
> Canada. Even with rebates it will definitely cost more than $20K. However
> you can get a base Vibe for approximately $20K plus GST and PST.
>
> "Joseph Oberlander" <josephoberlander@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:1fsWc.10984$3O3.4282@newsread2.news.pas.earth link.net...
> >
> >
> > Nightdude wrote:
> >
> > > More than a Civic...
> > >
> > > It comes with 4 wheel disc brakes, ABS is standard, side airbag
> standard,
> > > possiblity with perforated leather
> > > w/heated seats, automatic climate control and you can get a skirt
> package
> > > right now for 1200$ or so more.
> > > And sunroof.
> >
> > 2004 Vibe(base model, automatic): $13.5K after rebates. The trick
> > then is to toss in the supercharger and turn it into an automatic
> > version of the GT - faster than the GT and less $$ on insurance.
> >
> > Or just get one for $13.5K(13K with manual) - there's just no
> > better econobox deal out there right now.
> >
> > Or...
> > 2004 LeSabre Custom. No options - just a stock model.
> > ABS, A/C, automatic, and so on - all standard. I added only the
> > Touring Suspension, which is important. Comes with a CD radio
> > already. It has traction control, a computer with a HUD
> > (displays mph on the windshield) as well. Trip mileage,
> > diagnostics, mpg, and so on - it's a SLICK computer system
> > that you don't usually find on anything other than cars like
> > Volvos and Lexus.
> >
> > Oh - it also gets 27mpg highway. 3500lbs, 210HP, and still
> > gets small car highway mileage.
> >
> > LIST BASE TMV
> > Total with Options and Delivery $27,050 $24,796 $25,091
> > Incentives & Rebates -$5,000
> > Customer Cash Adjusted True Market Value $20,091
> >
> > That's suddenly worth considering. $20K for a car that's
> > comparable to an Avalon and twice what a typical econobox
> > is? $5K in rebates is a lot of repairs and gas.
> >
> > *note* - you know, I don't really like GM products much - I'm
> > more of an IS300 Sportcross fan myself. But - my old LeSabre
> > still runs. At 18 years old and 150K it still won't come
> > close to actually dying. As much as I didn't want to admit
> > it - the thing is actually a very reliable car. Lol. Only
> > my old Volvo 240 actually cost me less to maintain.
> >
> > The new ones are very reliable as well - the engine is bulletproof.
> > Probably one of the best engines ever made, in fact. Maintainence
> > is actually LESS expensive than on a Camry or Accord V6 last I
> > checked. Superb family car - really the only large car that
> > GM makes that is a good choice. Way better than a Saturn.
> >
>
>

griffin

Or I can just get a B-pack Corolla Sport that has all of the bells and
whistles. I wouldn't want a HUD anyway ...too complicated and if it ever
broke it'd bankrupt me getting it fixed.

And yea ...convert that to CDN $ and the prices are much different.

"Ghislain" <ghislaing@potsi.com-ISP_Name_Reversed> wrote in message
news:JGtWc.53712$vO1.281247@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> You are using US instead of Canadian prices. A LeSabre Custom is $34K in
> Canada. Even with rebates it will definitely cost more than $20K. However
> you can get a base Vibe for approximately $20K plus GST and PST.
>
> "Joseph Oberlander" <josephoberlander@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:1fsWc.10984$3O3.4282@newsread2.news.pas.earth link.net...
> >
> >
> > Nightdude wrote:
> >
> > > More than a Civic...
> > >
> > > It comes with 4 wheel disc brakes, ABS is standard, side airbag
> standard,
> > > possiblity with perforated leather
> > > w/heated seats, automatic climate control and you can get a skirt
> package
> > > right now for 1200$ or so more.
> > > And sunroof.
> >
> > 2004 Vibe(base model, automatic): $13.5K after rebates. The trick
> > then is to toss in the supercharger and turn it into an automatic
> > version of the GT - faster than the GT and less $$ on insurance.
> >
> > Or just get one for $13.5K(13K with manual) - there's just no
> > better econobox deal out there right now.
> >
> > Or...
> > 2004 LeSabre Custom. No options - just a stock model.
> > ABS, A/C, automatic, and so on - all standard. I added only the
> > Touring Suspension, which is important. Comes with a CD radio
> > already. It has traction control, a computer with a HUD
> > (displays mph on the windshield) as well. Trip mileage,
> > diagnostics, mpg, and so on - it's a SLICK computer system
> > that you don't usually find on anything other than cars like
> > Volvos and Lexus.
> >
> > Oh - it also gets 27mpg highway. 3500lbs, 210HP, and still
> > gets small car highway mileage.
> >
> > LIST BASE TMV
> > Total with Options and Delivery $27,050 $24,796 $25,091
> > Incentives & Rebates -$5,000
> > Customer Cash Adjusted True Market Value $20,091
> >
> > That's suddenly worth considering. $20K for a car that's
> > comparable to an Avalon and twice what a typical econobox
> > is? $5K in rebates is a lot of repairs and gas.
> >
> > *note* - you know, I don't really like GM products much - I'm
> > more of an IS300 Sportcross fan myself. But - my old LeSabre
> > still runs. At 18 years old and 150K it still won't come
> > close to actually dying. As much as I didn't want to admit
> > it - the thing is actually a very reliable car. Lol. Only
> > my old Volvo 240 actually cost me less to maintain.
> >
> > The new ones are very reliable as well - the engine is bulletproof.
> > Probably one of the best engines ever made, in fact. Maintainence
> > is actually LESS expensive than on a Camry or Accord V6 last I
> > checked. Superb family car - really the only large car that
> > GM makes that is a good choice. Way better than a Saturn.
> >
>
>

Timothy J. Lee

In article <1fsWc.10984$3O3.4282@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink .net>,
Joseph Oberlander <josephoberlander@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Oh - it also gets 27mpg highway. 3500lbs, 210HP, and still
>gets small car highway mileage.

Small cars should get significantly better than 27mpg.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee
Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome.
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.

Timothy J. Lee

In article <1fsWc.10984$3O3.4282@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink .net>,
Joseph Oberlander <josephoberlander@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Oh - it also gets 27mpg highway. 3500lbs, 210HP, and still
>gets small car highway mileage.

Small cars should get significantly better than 27mpg.

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Timothy J. Lee
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Joseph Oberlander

Ghislain wrote:
> You are using US instead of Canadian prices. A LeSabre Custom is $34K in
> Canada. Even with rebates it will definitely cost more than $20K. However
> you can get a base Vibe for approximately $20K plus GST and PST.

True - that's US dollars. That's still going to be $20K USD
for a new one, which is a great deal. The Vibe - yeah - you can't
get a better value for $20K Can.

Joseph Oberlander

Ghislain wrote:
> You are using US instead of Canadian prices. A LeSabre Custom is $34K in
> Canada. Even with rebates it will definitely cost more than $20K. However
> you can get a base Vibe for approximately $20K plus GST and PST.

True - that's US dollars. That's still going to be $20K USD
for a new one, which is a great deal. The Vibe - yeah - you can't
get a better value for $20K Can.