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Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant
On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:20:34 +0800, "TE Chea" <4ws@gmail.com> wrote:
>| front wheels' hub caps too can be removed, to help cool engine. >My front wheels used to be too hot to touch, caused by this * flow >design flaw & cheapo exhaust manifold. Removal of hub cap will >let drive shaft & engine cool faster, unnecessary for well cooled >engines, but for desparate users with severe overheating, this can >help a bit, esp on original steel wheels with 15½" Ø plastic caps. If your wheels are too hot to touch then you probably have a brake problem (or you are riding them/failing to downshift for long descents). Removing the wheel covers could help with brake cooling, but the effect on engine cooling would be negligible. Hondas have excellent engine cooling. The only time I have ever had a gauge go much above half was when the system had lost coolant. That has happened two or three times in 35 vehicle years of ownership of five Honda cars. I have run these cars in Chicago traffic in ambient temperatures from -28F to 106F and I have never found the cooling system to be inadequate in any way. So I would suggest that if yours is inadequate, it may need repair or it may be due to one or more of your modifications. If the former, then fix the problem. If the latter, then feel free to make whatever further modifications are necessary to correct these problems. Just don't whine that the car is defective. |
Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant
Steve Mackie wrote:
>>| front wheels' hub caps too can be removed, to help cool engine. >>My front wheels used to be too hot to touch, caused by this * flow >>design flaw & cheapo exhaust manifold. Removal of hub cap will >>let drive shaft & engine cool faster, unnecessary for well cooled >>engines, but for desparate users with severe overheating, this can >>help a bit, esp on original steel wheels with 15½" Ø plastic caps. > > > You've got to be f***in kidding me. > > Plonk. > > Steve > > his best one was about disconnecting the clock because the excessive load on the alternator robbed power... |
Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant
Steve Mackie wrote:
>>| front wheels' hub caps too can be removed, to help cool engine. >>My front wheels used to be too hot to touch, caused by this * flow >>design flaw & cheapo exhaust manifold. Removal of hub cap will >>let drive shaft & engine cool faster, unnecessary for well cooled >>engines, but for desparate users with severe overheating, this can >>help a bit, esp on original steel wheels with 15½" Ø plastic caps. > > > You've got to be f***in kidding me. > > Plonk. > > Steve > > his best one was about disconnecting the clock because the excessive load on the alternator robbed power... |
Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant
Steve Mackie wrote:
>>| front wheels' hub caps too can be removed, to help cool engine. >>My front wheels used to be too hot to touch, caused by this * flow >>design flaw & cheapo exhaust manifold. Removal of hub cap will >>let drive shaft & engine cool faster, unnecessary for well cooled >>engines, but for desparate users with severe overheating, this can >>help a bit, esp on original steel wheels with 15½" Ø plastic caps. > > > You've got to be f***in kidding me. > > Plonk. > > Steve > > his best one was about disconnecting the clock because the excessive load on the alternator robbed power... |
Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant
Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in > news:bM-dncpQr4WtgQfZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d@speakeasy.net: > > >>Jim Yanik wrote: >> >>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in >>>news:OuqdnUjFs9QaPAXZnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@speakeasy .net: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Jim Yanik wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in >>>>>news:lrWdnX4uvr91awrZnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@speakea sy.net: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>TE Chea wrote: >>>>>><snip> >>>>>> >>>>>>you need to stop drinking the "cold air intake" coolaid there guy. >>>>>>it may be fine for you kidz in the nice warm county of l.a. to run >>>>>>about with disabled de-icing equipment, but anywhere else in the >>>>>>country, it becomes a bit of an issue when your car sputters to a >>>>>>halt because of ice buildup. >>>>>> >>>>>>as an aside, i had my air intake cover off the other day, and >>>>>>forgot to screw it on tightly. the screws worked their way out >>>>>>after a few hundred miles, and the air intake cover popped off. it >>>>>>was noticeable by two things: >>>>>> >>>>>>1. increased noise. ok, ho hum. >>>>>> >>>>>>2. big /decrease/ in power. the "ultimate" cold air intake, i.e. >>>>>>no intake at all produces /less/ power???!!! yep, you better >>>>>>believe it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Uh,the air intake is still from the hot under-hood air.All you did >>>>>was shorten the intake runner length,which reduces torque. >>>>>If you don't believe cold air enables more power,then explain why >>>>>racers put scoops and ducts on their race cars.It wouldn't make >>>>>sense,adding more drag to get cold air that doesn't produce more >>>>>power. >>>> >>>>uh, i understand how it works thanks. what i'm saying is that it's >>>>not so simple as most of the "cai" crowd believes. if the intake >>>>tubing is tuned correctly, i.e. resonances are set specifically, it >>>>enhances the air charge entering the engine. done right, it >>>>flattens/broadens power/torque curves. otherwise you're stuck with >>>>huge flat spots in the engine's performance, exactly what i was >>>>experiencing. >>>> >>>>"tuning" the air charge has /way/ more effect than the minor density >>>>differences made by a few degrees of ambient air temperature. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>now, it's possible that some aftermarket manufacturers of air >>>>>>intakes know what they're doing and understand airflow resonance >>>>>>dynamics and the effect it has on engine air induction, but somehow >>>>>>i doubt most of them do. but hey, most of this stuff is not for >>>>>>performance, it's just for show... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>If Honda Tuning Magazine still has the article,they did flow bench >>>and dyno tests on an RSX for several different brands of short rams >>>and two cold air intakes.They did a reference test on the unaltered >>>vehicle,then tested each intake system.Both CAIs got 20HP and modest >>>torque increases.The short rams only got 5-7 HP gains. They included >>>their graphs in the magazine article.They also discussed the effect >>>of intake air temperature WRT making power. >> >>i appreciate what you're saying jim, but did they drop a thermistor >>into the air stream to measure the difference in air temperature >>between the two? > > > They used the OBDII intake air temp measurements read from the ECU's own > sensors. great! what were they? > >>i'll be surprised if they did because i can't say >>i've ever seen one of those "dyno graph" articles that ever has. >>without that, they're simply measuring the dynamic air charging effect >>differences - what i was talking about before. you're right, >>temperature /can/ make a difference to power yield [an 80 degree >>difference in air temp gets you roughly 10% difference in air density] >>but again, have you ever seen temperature reading differences quoted? >>and what difference does it make for a *moving vehicle* with & without >>cai? airflow under the hood is, well, you get the picture... just >>questions to ask. > > > even with airflow under the hood,the underhood temerature is much higher > than outside.There's radiated engine heat that is retained. you need to re-phrase that one dude. radiated heat, by definition, is not retained. and a sensor inside the manifold is not going to experience much radiated heat from anything other than the manifold itself. i think what you mean is that air drawn form under the hood i.e. downwind of the radiator, is warmer, which is true. but in these pics http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/c...m22000_003.jpg http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/c...blue_motor.jpg http://www.clubcivic.com/gallery/fil...5/DSC01335.JPG http://www.clubcivic.com/gallery/fil...amImage384.jpg etc. in all these cases, the cai's are /all/ downwind of the radiator, so i don't see what the "cold air intake" is achieving in the thermal department, unless it's on a static vehicle with the hood open. and i'd love to see numbers on air temp for a /moving/ vehicle, especially as oem intakes all draw air from up front of the radiator. if all these kiddiez were serious, they'd cut through the fender and/or hood and put a real cold air scoop to the outside world, but i've never seen that on a cai'd civic. > > >>>It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue. >>> >> > > You really should get a copy of the article. > scan it and send it to tegger. again, i see dyno differences mostly attributable to air charge resonances, not actual air temperature. |
Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant
Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in > news:bM-dncpQr4WtgQfZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d@speakeasy.net: > > >>Jim Yanik wrote: >> >>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in >>>news:OuqdnUjFs9QaPAXZnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@speakeasy .net: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Jim Yanik wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in >>>>>news:lrWdnX4uvr91awrZnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@speakea sy.net: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>TE Chea wrote: >>>>>><snip> >>>>>> >>>>>>you need to stop drinking the "cold air intake" coolaid there guy. >>>>>>it may be fine for you kidz in the nice warm county of l.a. to run >>>>>>about with disabled de-icing equipment, but anywhere else in the >>>>>>country, it becomes a bit of an issue when your car sputters to a >>>>>>halt because of ice buildup. >>>>>> >>>>>>as an aside, i had my air intake cover off the other day, and >>>>>>forgot to screw it on tightly. the screws worked their way out >>>>>>after a few hundred miles, and the air intake cover popped off. it >>>>>>was noticeable by two things: >>>>>> >>>>>>1. increased noise. ok, ho hum. >>>>>> >>>>>>2. big /decrease/ in power. the "ultimate" cold air intake, i.e. >>>>>>no intake at all produces /less/ power???!!! yep, you better >>>>>>believe it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Uh,the air intake is still from the hot under-hood air.All you did >>>>>was shorten the intake runner length,which reduces torque. >>>>>If you don't believe cold air enables more power,then explain why >>>>>racers put scoops and ducts on their race cars.It wouldn't make >>>>>sense,adding more drag to get cold air that doesn't produce more >>>>>power. >>>> >>>>uh, i understand how it works thanks. what i'm saying is that it's >>>>not so simple as most of the "cai" crowd believes. if the intake >>>>tubing is tuned correctly, i.e. resonances are set specifically, it >>>>enhances the air charge entering the engine. done right, it >>>>flattens/broadens power/torque curves. otherwise you're stuck with >>>>huge flat spots in the engine's performance, exactly what i was >>>>experiencing. >>>> >>>>"tuning" the air charge has /way/ more effect than the minor density >>>>differences made by a few degrees of ambient air temperature. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>now, it's possible that some aftermarket manufacturers of air >>>>>>intakes know what they're doing and understand airflow resonance >>>>>>dynamics and the effect it has on engine air induction, but somehow >>>>>>i doubt most of them do. but hey, most of this stuff is not for >>>>>>performance, it's just for show... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>If Honda Tuning Magazine still has the article,they did flow bench >>>and dyno tests on an RSX for several different brands of short rams >>>and two cold air intakes.They did a reference test on the unaltered >>>vehicle,then tested each intake system.Both CAIs got 20HP and modest >>>torque increases.The short rams only got 5-7 HP gains. They included >>>their graphs in the magazine article.They also discussed the effect >>>of intake air temperature WRT making power. >> >>i appreciate what you're saying jim, but did they drop a thermistor >>into the air stream to measure the difference in air temperature >>between the two? > > > They used the OBDII intake air temp measurements read from the ECU's own > sensors. great! what were they? > >>i'll be surprised if they did because i can't say >>i've ever seen one of those "dyno graph" articles that ever has. >>without that, they're simply measuring the dynamic air charging effect >>differences - what i was talking about before. you're right, >>temperature /can/ make a difference to power yield [an 80 degree >>difference in air temp gets you roughly 10% difference in air density] >>but again, have you ever seen temperature reading differences quoted? >>and what difference does it make for a *moving vehicle* with & without >>cai? airflow under the hood is, well, you get the picture... just >>questions to ask. > > > even with airflow under the hood,the underhood temerature is much higher > than outside.There's radiated engine heat that is retained. you need to re-phrase that one dude. radiated heat, by definition, is not retained. and a sensor inside the manifold is not going to experience much radiated heat from anything other than the manifold itself. i think what you mean is that air drawn form under the hood i.e. downwind of the radiator, is warmer, which is true. but in these pics http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/c...m22000_003.jpg http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/c...blue_motor.jpg http://www.clubcivic.com/gallery/fil...5/DSC01335.JPG http://www.clubcivic.com/gallery/fil...amImage384.jpg etc. in all these cases, the cai's are /all/ downwind of the radiator, so i don't see what the "cold air intake" is achieving in the thermal department, unless it's on a static vehicle with the hood open. and i'd love to see numbers on air temp for a /moving/ vehicle, especially as oem intakes all draw air from up front of the radiator. if all these kiddiez were serious, they'd cut through the fender and/or hood and put a real cold air scoop to the outside world, but i've never seen that on a cai'd civic. > > >>>It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue. >>> >> > > You really should get a copy of the article. > scan it and send it to tegger. again, i see dyno differences mostly attributable to air charge resonances, not actual air temperature. |
Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant
Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in > news:bM-dncpQr4WtgQfZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d@speakeasy.net: > > >>Jim Yanik wrote: >> >>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in >>>news:OuqdnUjFs9QaPAXZnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@speakeasy .net: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Jim Yanik wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in >>>>>news:lrWdnX4uvr91awrZnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@speakea sy.net: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>TE Chea wrote: >>>>>><snip> >>>>>> >>>>>>you need to stop drinking the "cold air intake" coolaid there guy. >>>>>>it may be fine for you kidz in the nice warm county of l.a. to run >>>>>>about with disabled de-icing equipment, but anywhere else in the >>>>>>country, it becomes a bit of an issue when your car sputters to a >>>>>>halt because of ice buildup. >>>>>> >>>>>>as an aside, i had my air intake cover off the other day, and >>>>>>forgot to screw it on tightly. the screws worked their way out >>>>>>after a few hundred miles, and the air intake cover popped off. it >>>>>>was noticeable by two things: >>>>>> >>>>>>1. increased noise. ok, ho hum. >>>>>> >>>>>>2. big /decrease/ in power. the "ultimate" cold air intake, i.e. >>>>>>no intake at all produces /less/ power???!!! yep, you better >>>>>>believe it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Uh,the air intake is still from the hot under-hood air.All you did >>>>>was shorten the intake runner length,which reduces torque. >>>>>If you don't believe cold air enables more power,then explain why >>>>>racers put scoops and ducts on their race cars.It wouldn't make >>>>>sense,adding more drag to get cold air that doesn't produce more >>>>>power. >>>> >>>>uh, i understand how it works thanks. what i'm saying is that it's >>>>not so simple as most of the "cai" crowd believes. if the intake >>>>tubing is tuned correctly, i.e. resonances are set specifically, it >>>>enhances the air charge entering the engine. done right, it >>>>flattens/broadens power/torque curves. otherwise you're stuck with >>>>huge flat spots in the engine's performance, exactly what i was >>>>experiencing. >>>> >>>>"tuning" the air charge has /way/ more effect than the minor density >>>>differences made by a few degrees of ambient air temperature. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>now, it's possible that some aftermarket manufacturers of air >>>>>>intakes know what they're doing and understand airflow resonance >>>>>>dynamics and the effect it has on engine air induction, but somehow >>>>>>i doubt most of them do. but hey, most of this stuff is not for >>>>>>performance, it's just for show... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>If Honda Tuning Magazine still has the article,they did flow bench >>>and dyno tests on an RSX for several different brands of short rams >>>and two cold air intakes.They did a reference test on the unaltered >>>vehicle,then tested each intake system.Both CAIs got 20HP and modest >>>torque increases.The short rams only got 5-7 HP gains. They included >>>their graphs in the magazine article.They also discussed the effect >>>of intake air temperature WRT making power. >> >>i appreciate what you're saying jim, but did they drop a thermistor >>into the air stream to measure the difference in air temperature >>between the two? > > > They used the OBDII intake air temp measurements read from the ECU's own > sensors. great! what were they? > >>i'll be surprised if they did because i can't say >>i've ever seen one of those "dyno graph" articles that ever has. >>without that, they're simply measuring the dynamic air charging effect >>differences - what i was talking about before. you're right, >>temperature /can/ make a difference to power yield [an 80 degree >>difference in air temp gets you roughly 10% difference in air density] >>but again, have you ever seen temperature reading differences quoted? >>and what difference does it make for a *moving vehicle* with & without >>cai? airflow under the hood is, well, you get the picture... just >>questions to ask. > > > even with airflow under the hood,the underhood temerature is much higher > than outside.There's radiated engine heat that is retained. you need to re-phrase that one dude. radiated heat, by definition, is not retained. and a sensor inside the manifold is not going to experience much radiated heat from anything other than the manifold itself. i think what you mean is that air drawn form under the hood i.e. downwind of the radiator, is warmer, which is true. but in these pics http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/c...m22000_003.jpg http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/c...blue_motor.jpg http://www.clubcivic.com/gallery/fil...5/DSC01335.JPG http://www.clubcivic.com/gallery/fil...amImage384.jpg etc. in all these cases, the cai's are /all/ downwind of the radiator, so i don't see what the "cold air intake" is achieving in the thermal department, unless it's on a static vehicle with the hood open. and i'd love to see numbers on air temp for a /moving/ vehicle, especially as oem intakes all draw air from up front of the radiator. if all these kiddiez were serious, they'd cut through the fender and/or hood and put a real cold air scoop to the outside world, but i've never seen that on a cai'd civic. > > >>>It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue. >>> >> > > You really should get a copy of the article. > scan it and send it to tegger. again, i see dyno differences mostly attributable to air charge resonances, not actual air temperature. |
Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:0PadnVa-YJrl1AbZnZ2dnUVZ_qKdnZ2d@speakeasy.net: > Jim Yanik wrote: >> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in >> news:bM-dncpQr4WtgQfZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d@speakeasy.net: >> >>>>It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue. >>>> >>> >> >> You really should get a copy of the article. >> > scan it and send it to tegger. And I'd be delighted to post such results. > > again, i see dyno differences mostly attributable to air charge > resonances, not actual air temperature. And what sort of changes are we talking about here? 5 BHP? Less? -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:0PadnVa-YJrl1AbZnZ2dnUVZ_qKdnZ2d@speakeasy.net: > Jim Yanik wrote: >> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in >> news:bM-dncpQr4WtgQfZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d@speakeasy.net: >> >>>>It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue. >>>> >>> >> >> You really should get a copy of the article. >> > scan it and send it to tegger. And I'd be delighted to post such results. > > again, i see dyno differences mostly attributable to air charge > resonances, not actual air temperature. And what sort of changes are we talking about here? 5 BHP? Less? -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:0PadnVa-YJrl1AbZnZ2dnUVZ_qKdnZ2d@speakeasy.net: > Jim Yanik wrote: >> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in >> news:bM-dncpQr4WtgQfZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d@speakeasy.net: >> >>>>It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue. >>>> >>> >> >> You really should get a copy of the article. >> > scan it and send it to tegger. And I'd be delighted to post such results. > > again, i see dyno differences mostly attributable to air charge > resonances, not actual air temperature. And what sort of changes are we talking about here? 5 BHP? Less? -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant
TeGGeR® wrote:
> His post makes no sense. they never do. |
Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant
TeGGeR® wrote:
> His post makes no sense. they never do. |
Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant
TeGGeR® wrote:
> His post makes no sense. they never do. |
Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant
"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns97EADFA17A9C8tegger@207.14.116.130: > jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in > news:0PadnVa-YJrl1AbZnZ2dnUVZ_qKdnZ2d@speakeasy.net: > >> Jim Yanik wrote: >>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in >>> news:bM-dncpQr4WtgQfZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d@speakeasy.net: > >>> >>>>>It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue. >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> You really should get a copy of the article. >>> >> scan it and send it to tegger. I don't have the magazine anymore. I DO wish I'd kept it. > > And I'd be delighted to post such results. > > > >> >> again, i see dyno differences mostly attributable to air charge >> resonances, not actual air temperature. > > > > And what sort of changes are we talking about here? 5 BHP? Less? > for CAIs(not short rams),20 HP for a RSX. IIRC,that was measured at the wheel by Honda Tuning's dyno. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant
"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns97EADFA17A9C8tegger@207.14.116.130: > jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in > news:0PadnVa-YJrl1AbZnZ2dnUVZ_qKdnZ2d@speakeasy.net: > >> Jim Yanik wrote: >>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in >>> news:bM-dncpQr4WtgQfZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d@speakeasy.net: > >>> >>>>>It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue. >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> You really should get a copy of the article. >>> >> scan it and send it to tegger. I don't have the magazine anymore. I DO wish I'd kept it. > > And I'd be delighted to post such results. > > > >> >> again, i see dyno differences mostly attributable to air charge >> resonances, not actual air temperature. > > > > And what sort of changes are we talking about here? 5 BHP? Less? > for CAIs(not short rams),20 HP for a RSX. IIRC,that was measured at the wheel by Honda Tuning's dyno. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
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