Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <fLFXl.33375$VL5.15396@newsfe22.iad>, Leftie <No@Thanks.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> In article <seidneyJ0MWjVLDXnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
>>> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> you can dry air without cooling
>>>> it.
>>> how?
>>
>> Seriously? Ok. By *heating it*.
>
> In the context of this conversation? Seriously?

no, he's confused.


>
> But I thought you wanted COOL air.
>
> And you don't remove moisture by heating. You change the dew point, but
> you don't remove moisture.

correct. but it's also correct that hotter air can hold more moisture.
that doesn't make it "dry", but the proportion relative to saturation
decreases.


>
> Condensation removes moisture.

correct.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

jim beam wrote:
>
> technically, it's not. if you simply want to dehumidify, you don't
> bother pumping the heat outside.

It's a lot better than just relying on a dehumidifier to remove
moisture from a building. The heat that the dehumidifier generates while
removing the moisture builds up rapidly. Better to vent the heat outside
too.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:MPadnT8K8rhgN7LXnZ2dnUVZ_gti4p2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Brian Smith wrote:
>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>
>>> few people use their auto AC in such temps.
>>
>> "Few People" Man you need to get out more. Using the A/C in the
>> winter months when there is snow and ice clears the windows of
>> condensation so quickly.

auto operators manuals all tell owners to use the AC periodically in winter
months so it gets lubricated and doesn't rust up.If they have to tell
owners that,then frequent use in winter is not common.

It used to be that most cars sold up North didn't have AC,unless ordered as
an option.(and they were hard to sell down south without AC)
Since foreign carmakers began bundling it as standard,that's changed,I
believe.
BTW,I grew up in Buffalo and lived in the North for many years.

>>
>>> such a use is SECONDARY to the primary purpose of -removing HEAT- from
>>> an auto interior.
>>
>> Removing the humidity is part of removing the heat from a vehicle
>> or building.

a -secondary- part.Not the primary purpose of auto AC.
>>
>
> technically, it's not. if you simply want to dehumidify, you don't
> bother pumping the heat outside.
>

note there is a temperature control on every auto AC,but no humidity
control.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <fLFXl.33375$VL5.15396@newsfe22.iad>, Leftie <No@Thanks.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> In article <seidneyJ0MWjVLDXnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
>>> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> you can dry air without cooling
>>>> it.
>>> how?
>>
>> Seriously? Ok. By *heating it*.
>
> In the context of this conversation? Seriously?
>
> But I thought you wanted COOL air.


You didn't ask "in the context of this conversation." Stop digging
that hole and give up, man.


(...)

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <pn%Xl.33520$VL5.30984@newsfe22.iad>, Leftie <No@Thanks.net>
wrote:

> > In the context of this conversation? Seriously?
> >
> > But I thought you wanted COOL air.
>
>
> You didn't ask "in the context of this conversation." Stop digging
> that hole and give up, man.

You're stretching. YOU knew what the context was, and chose to ignore
it for your own purposes.

"Conversational implicature"--first look up what the words mean, then
look up what the phrase means.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Thus spake Brian Smith <Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> :

>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of moisture is
>> only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I think you're wrong)
>
> The removal of humidity from the air is what causes the cooking effect.
>

Incorrect. Expansion of compressed gases is what causes the cooling
effect. The removal of moisture is a side effect.

One can dehumidfy one's car without cooling it. I frequently have the
compressor on during the winter to dry out the air, even though I'm
also running the heater.

>> Remember that the hot interior of the car is not affected by moisture
>> content.Thus the need for -cool air-,to pull out that heat.
>>
>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating heavily)
>
> See above.

Says someone in Nova Scotia.

--

- dillon I am not invalid

"Gee, Jimmy,I'm sorry to hear that your girlfriend
turned out to be a Cylon."
-Special Agent Tim McGee, "NCIS"

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Dillon Pyron wrote:
> Thus spake Brian Smith <Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> :
>
>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of moisture is
>>> only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I think you're wrong)
>> The removal of humidity from the air is what causes the cooking effect.
>>
>
> Incorrect. Expansion of compressed gases is what causes the cooling
> effect.

while that effect exists, it's small beer compared to the real heat
exchange mechanism - that of changing phase from liquid to gas. it's
liquid /evaporation/ that causes the cooling effect.


> The removal of moisture is a side effect.
>
> One can dehumidfy one's car without cooling it. I frequently have the
> compressor on during the winter to dry out the air, even though I'm
> also running the heater.
>
>>> Remember that the hot interior of the car is not affected by moisture
>>> content.Thus the need for -cool air-,to pull out that heat.
>>>
>>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating heavily)
>> See above.
>
> Says someone in Nova Scotia.
>

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:TOadnWsukam6dazXnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Dillon Pyron wrote:
>> Thus spake Brian Smith <Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> :
>>
>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of
>>>> moisture is only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I
>>>> think you're wrong)
>>> The removal of humidity from the air is what causes the cooling
>>> effect.
>>>
>>
>> Incorrect. Expansion of compressed gases is what causes the cooling
>> effect.

Not for the human body.
you can fart all you want and it's not going to cool you one bit. ;-)
>
> while that effect exists, it's small beer compared to the real heat
> exchange mechanism - that of changing phase from liquid to gas. it's
> liquid /evaporation/ that causes the cooling effect.
>
>
>> The removal of moisture is a side effect.
>>
>> One can dehumidfy one's car without cooling it. I frequently have
>> the compressor on during the winter to dry out the air, even though
>> I'm also running the heater.
>>
>>>> Remember that the hot interior of the car is not affected by
>>>> moisture content.Thus the need for -cool air-,to pull out that
>>>> heat.
>>>>
>>>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating
>>>> heavily)
>>> See above.
>>
>> Says someone in Nova Scotia.
>>
>

AIUI,Elmo was claiming that a -person- is cooled more by the lowering of
humidity than by the cool air itself.He said the -primary reason- for auto
AC is to lower interior humidity,that the cold air is just a means of doing
that.
Of course,the example of dry hot desert air disproves that.
The body also radiates away heat by other means than perspiration,and if
the body is not absorbing heat from the environment(being cooled by cold
air),it can radiate more heat away.(by all means)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
> news:TOadnWsukam6dazXnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> Dillon Pyron wrote:
>>> Thus spake Brian Smith <Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> :
>>>
>>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of
>>>>> moisture is only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I
>>>>> think you're wrong)
>>>> The removal of humidity from the air is what causes the cooling
>>>> effect.
>>>>
>>> Incorrect. Expansion of compressed gases is what causes the cooling
>>> effect.
>
> Not for the human body.
> you can fart all you want and it's not going to cool you one bit. ;-)
>> while that effect exists, it's small beer compared to the real heat
>> exchange mechanism - that of changing phase from liquid to gas. it's
>> liquid /evaporation/ that causes the cooling effect.
>>
>>
>>> The removal of moisture is a side effect.
>>>
>>> One can dehumidfy one's car without cooling it. I frequently have
>>> the compressor on during the winter to dry out the air, even though
>>> I'm also running the heater.
>>>
>>>>> Remember that the hot interior of the car is not affected by
>>>>> moisture content.Thus the need for -cool air-,to pull out that
>>>>> heat.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating
>>>>> heavily)
>>>> See above.
>>> Says someone in Nova Scotia.
>>>
>
> AIUI,Elmo was claiming that a -person- is cooled more by the lowering of
> humidity than by the cool air itself.He said the -primary reason- for auto
> AC is to lower interior humidity,that the cold air is just a means of doing
> that.
> Of course,the example of dry hot desert air disproves that.
> The body also radiates away heat by other means than perspiration,and if
> the body is not absorbing heat from the environment(being cooled by cold
> air),it can radiate more heat away.(by all means)
>

radiation is not our primary means of heat dispersal. especially not at
ambient above 98.4F. the phase change of water evaporation otoh, that
of sweating, dumps heat spectacularly well.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <Xns9C285B699B399jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:

> AIUI,Elmo was claiming that a -person- is cooled more by the lowering of
> humidity than by the cool air itself.He said the -primary reason- for auto
> AC is to lower interior humidity,that the cold air is just a means of doing
> that.
> Of course,the example of dry hot desert air disproves that.

just like the example of 63 degree incredibly moist air proves it.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
news:elmop-C425BD.10123612062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:

> In article <Xns9C285B699B399jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83>,
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> AIUI,Elmo was claiming that a -person- is cooled more by the lowering
>> of humidity than by the cool air itself.He said the -primary reason-
>> for auto AC is to lower interior humidity,that the cold air is just a
>> means of doing that.
>> Of course,the example of dry hot desert air disproves that.
>
> just like the example of 63 degree incredibly moist air proves it.
>

no,it doesn't.
63 deg "incredibly moist air" is not a "primary" reason for AC.

AC is primarily to remove -heat- from the interior,not moisture.
The vast majority of AC usage is for HOT interiors.

People do not get into their hot cars and say "oh,it's too humid in
here,turn on the AC",they think "it's too HOT,turn on the AC" to remove the
heat,to get COOL AIR flowing on them,cooling them.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:Jr2dnYown5d1zq_XnZ2dnUVZ_gOdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
>> news:TOadnWsukam6dazXnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>
>>> Dillon Pyron wrote:
>>>> Thus spake Brian Smith <Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> :
>>>>
>>>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of
>>>>>> moisture is only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I
>>>>>> think you're wrong)
>>>>> The removal of humidity from the air is what causes the
>>>>> cooling effect.
>>>>>
>>>> Incorrect. Expansion of compressed gases is what causes the
>>>> cooling effect.
>>
>> Not for the human body.
>> you can fart all you want and it's not going to cool you one bit. ;-)
>>> while that effect exists, it's small beer compared to the real heat
>>> exchange mechanism - that of changing phase from liquid to gas.
>>> it's liquid /evaporation/ that causes the cooling effect.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The removal of moisture is a side effect.
>>>>
>>>> One can dehumidfy one's car without cooling it. I frequently have
>>>> the compressor on during the winter to dry out the air, even though
>>>> I'm also running the heater.
>>>>
>>>>>> Remember that the hot interior of the car is not affected by
>>>>>> moisture content.Thus the need for -cool air-,to pull out that
>>>>>> heat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating
>>>>>> heavily)
>>>>> See above.
>>>> Says someone in Nova Scotia.
>>>>
>>
>> AIUI,Elmo was claiming that a -person- is cooled more by the lowering
>> of humidity than by the cool air itself.He said the -primary reason-
>> for auto AC is to lower interior humidity,that the cold air is just a
>> means of doing that.
>> Of course,the example of dry hot desert air disproves that.
>> The body also radiates away heat by other means than perspiration,and
>> if the body is not absorbing heat from the environment(being cooled
>> by cold air),it can radiate more heat away.(by all means)
>>
>
> radiation is not our primary means of heat dispersal. especially not
> at ambient above 98.4F. the phase change of water evaporation otoh,
> that of sweating, dumps heat spectacularly well.
>
>

but if the heated environment is cooled(heat removed by AC),then the body
doesn't absorb heat from it.Instead,it loses heat,by evaporation and
radiation.(and conduction)

removing heat from the body without removing it from the auto interior is
an exercise in futility.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <Xns9C2876E8B4AF9jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.87>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:

> >> AIUI,Elmo was claiming that a -person- is cooled more by the lowering
> >> of humidity than by the cool air itself.He said the -primary reason-
> >> for auto AC is to lower interior humidity,that the cold air is just a
> >> means of doing that.
> >> Of course,the example of dry hot desert air disproves that.
> >
> > just like the example of 63 degree incredibly moist air proves it.
> >
>
> no,it doesn't.
> 63 deg "incredibly moist air" is not a "primary" reason for AC.

But you said "cool air" is why you want A/C.

I say, cool it all you want--the human body will hate it that way.

And the windows won't defog, which was the problem the original poster
had with his old car.



> People do not get into their hot cars and say "oh,it's too humid in
> here,turn on the AC",they think "it's too HOT,turn on the AC" to remove the
> heat,to get COOL AIR flowing on them,cooling them.

so you're saying that when it's cool, they simply don't use their A/C.
Right? Because if it's cool, you don't need A/C.

People generally don't think about the body's cooling mechanism, usually
out of ignorance.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
news:elmop-2044A8.14521312062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:

> In article <Xns9C2876E8B4AF9jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.87>,
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> >> AIUI,Elmo was claiming that a -person- is cooled more by the
>> >> lowering of humidity than by the cool air itself.He said the
>> >> -primary reason- for auto AC is to lower interior humidity,that
>> >> the cold air is just a means of doing that.
>> >> Of course,the example of dry hot desert air disproves that.
>> >
>> > just like the example of 63 degree incredibly moist air proves it.
>> >
>>
>> no,it doesn't.
>> 63 deg "incredibly moist air" is not a "primary" reason for AC.
>
> But you said "cool air" is why you want A/C.

YOU said auto AC's PRIMARY use was dehumidification.It's not.
The PRIMARY purpose is to provide cool air,to remove heat from the
interior.Auto AC is primarily used on HOT days.
>
> I say, cool it all you want--the human body will hate it that way.

Not on any hot day.

>
> And the windows won't defog, which was the problem the original poster
> had with his old car.

windows don't fog up on hot days,which is the -majority- of AC usage.
Sure,a secondary use is defogging(with the addition of heat from the engine
cooling system..),but not the -primary- use,as you claim.
>
>
>
>> People do not get into their hot cars and say "oh,it's too humid in
>> here,turn on the AC",they think "it's too HOT,turn on the AC" to
>> remove the heat,to get COOL AIR flowing on them,cooling them.
>
> so you're saying that when it's cool, they simply don't use their A/C.

Generally,they don't.Hardly at all,compared to hot day usage.
In fact,auto owner manuals all emphasize that operators should run the AC
pweriodically during cool weather to keep seals lubed.
That shows that people generally do NOT use AC in cooler weather.
Most people forget about AC in cooler weather.

> Right? Because if it's cool, you don't need A/C.
>
> People generally don't think about the body's cooling mechanism,
> usually out of ignorance.
>

Ah,a subtle insult.A sure sign of losing an argument.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
> news:Jr2dnYown5d1zq_XnZ2dnUVZ_gOdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
>>> news:TOadnWsukam6dazXnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>
>>>> Dillon Pyron wrote:
>>>>> Thus spake Brian Smith <Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> :
>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of
>>>>>>> moisture is only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I
>>>>>>> think you're wrong)
>>>>>> The removal of humidity from the air is what causes the
>>>>>> cooling effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Incorrect. Expansion of compressed gases is what causes the
>>>>> cooling effect.
>>> Not for the human body.
>>> you can fart all you want and it's not going to cool you one bit. ;-)
>>>> while that effect exists, it's small beer compared to the real heat
>>>> exchange mechanism - that of changing phase from liquid to gas.
>>>> it's liquid /evaporation/ that causes the cooling effect.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The removal of moisture is a side effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> One can dehumidfy one's car without cooling it. I frequently have
>>>>> the compressor on during the winter to dry out the air, even though
>>>>> I'm also running the heater.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remember that the hot interior of the car is not affected by
>>>>>>> moisture content.Thus the need for -cool air-,to pull out that
>>>>>>> heat.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating
>>>>>>> heavily)
>>>>>> See above.
>>>>> Says someone in Nova Scotia.
>>>>>
>>> AIUI,Elmo was claiming that a -person- is cooled more by the lowering
>>> of humidity than by the cool air itself.He said the -primary reason-
>>> for auto AC is to lower interior humidity,that the cold air is just a
>>> means of doing that.
>>> Of course,the example of dry hot desert air disproves that.
>>> The body also radiates away heat by other means than perspiration,and
>>> if the body is not absorbing heat from the environment(being cooled
>>> by cold air),it can radiate more heat away.(by all means)
>>>
>> radiation is not our primary means of heat dispersal. especially not
>> at ambient above 98.4F. the phase change of water evaporation otoh,
>> that of sweating, dumps heat spectacularly well.
>>
>>
>
> but if the heated environment is cooled(heat removed by AC),then the body
> doesn't absorb heat from it.Instead,it loses heat,by evaporation and
> radiation.(and conduction)

1. think about it - radiation isn't going to cool in an environment
where ambient exceeds human temp. evaporation can and does.

2. just so you're doubly sure on the concept, do the math on the amount
of heat lost for a 10' delta in radiation vs evaporation.


>
> removing heat from the body without removing it from the auto interior is
> an exercise in futility.