Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <Xns9C28C9A739BB7jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.86>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:

> That shows that people generally do NOT use AC in cooler weather.

yes, and in fact I've seen ignorant people DEMAND that Honda disable the
feature that turns on the AC every time you hit the windshield defrost
button--because they absolutely INSIST that it shouldn't happen that
way, period.

I also see people in modern A/C equipped cars that don't do that,
driving around in damp weather with fogged windows.

Ignorance is rampant.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <Xns9C28C9A739BB7jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.86>,
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> That shows that people generally do NOT use AC in cooler weather.
>
> yes, and in fact I've seen ignorant people DEMAND that Honda disable the
> feature that turns on the AC every time you hit the windshield defrost
> button--because they absolutely INSIST that it shouldn't happen that
> way, period.
>
> I also see people in modern A/C equipped cars that don't do that,
> driving around in damp weather with fogged windows.
>
> Ignorance is rampant.



"Ignorant?" In your opinion, apparently.

In most cases quite aware, and prefer the alternate default behavior.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
C2D962.01180513062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:

> In article <Xns9C28C9A739BB7jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.86>,
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> That shows that people generally do NOT use AC in cooler weather.
>
> yes,

So you finally admit that the majority of users DON'T use AC -for- humidity
removal,thus it cannot be the -primary- reason for AC.
Thanks for proving my point.

> and in fact I've seen ignorant people DEMAND that Honda disable the
> feature that turns on the AC every time you hit the windshield defrost
> button--because they absolutely INSIST that it shouldn't happen that
> way, period.

You call them "ignorant";maybe they just don't like the AC coming on
without them specifically turning it on.
Who wants the AC coming on when it's cold outside and the windshield is
FROSTY? In cold weather,the air is typically "dry";low humidity.No need to
remove humidity.All you need then is heat.

You're too quick to use the term "ignorant".

Perhaps -most- autos do NOT turn the AC on for windshield defrost.


>
> I also see people in modern A/C equipped cars that don't do that,
> driving around in damp weather with fogged windows.
>
> Ignorance is rampant.
>

there you go again.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:Vr-dnRdd-LigZa_XnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@speakeasy.net:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
>> news:Jr2dnYown5d1zq_XnZ2dnUVZ_gOdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>
>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
>>>> news:TOadnWsukam6dazXnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>>
>>>>> Dillon Pyron wrote:
>>>>>> Thus spake Brian Smith <Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>>>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of
>>>>>>>> moisture is only a secondary effect of providing cool
>>>>>>>> air.(IOW,I think you're wrong)
>>>>>>> The removal of humidity from the air is what causes the
>>>>>>> cooling effect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Incorrect. Expansion of compressed gases is what causes the
>>>>>> cooling effect.
>>>> Not for the human body.
>>>> you can fart all you want and it's not going to cool you one bit.
>>>> ;-)
>>>>> while that effect exists, it's small beer compared to the real
>>>>> heat exchange mechanism - that of changing phase from liquid to
>>>>> gas. it's liquid /evaporation/ that causes the cooling effect.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The removal of moisture is a side effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One can dehumidfy one's car without cooling it. I frequently
>>>>>> have the compressor on during the winter to dry out the air, even
>>>>>> though I'm also running the heater.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Remember that the hot interior of the car is not affected by
>>>>>>>> moisture content.Thus the need for -cool air-,to pull out that
>>>>>>>> heat.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating
>>>>>>>> heavily)
>>>>>>> See above.
>>>>>> Says someone in Nova Scotia.
>>>>>>
>>>> AIUI,Elmo was claiming that a -person- is cooled more by the
>>>> lowering of humidity than by the cool air itself.He said the
>>>> -primary reason- for auto AC is to lower interior humidity,that the
>>>> cold air is just a means of doing that.
>>>> Of course,the example of dry hot desert air disproves that.
>>>> The body also radiates away heat by other means than
>>>> perspiration,and if the body is not absorbing heat from the
>>>> environment(being cooled by cold air),it can radiate more heat
>>>> away.(by all means)
>>>>
>>> radiation is not our primary means of heat dispersal. especially
>>> not at ambient above 98.4F. the phase change of water evaporation
>>> otoh, that of sweating, dumps heat spectacularly well.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> but if the heated environment is cooled(heat removed by AC),then the
>> body doesn't absorb heat from it.Instead,it loses heat,by evaporation
>> and radiation.(and conduction)
>
> 1. think about it - radiation isn't going to cool in an environment
> where ambient exceeds human temp.

Thus the AC supplying COOL air,removing heat from the interior.
When the interior's heat is removed,the body no longer needs to perspire.

and the cool air affects the body sooner than any humidity reduction.
In the desert air example,the air is already bone dry,but AC is necessary
to -remove HEAT- from the auto interior,for the body to be comfortable.

> evaporation can and does.


>
> 2. just so you're doubly sure on the concept, do the math on the
> amount of heat lost for a 10' delta in radiation vs evaporation.

you do the math,and present it.
>
>
>>
>> removing heat from the body without removing it from the auto
>> interior is an exercise in futility.
>



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <Xns9C29565C57577jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.85>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:

> > and in fact I've seen ignorant people DEMAND that Honda disable the
> > feature that turns on the AC every time you hit the windshield defrost
> > button--because they absolutely INSIST that it shouldn't happen that
> > way, period.
>
> You call them "ignorant";maybe they just don't like the AC coming on
> without them specifically turning it on.

When they drive around with fogged windows because "I don't need the AC
on, it's 63 degrees outside!" then they're ignorant.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
> news:Vr-dnRdd-LigZa_XnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@speakeasy.net:
>
>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
>>> news:Jr2dnYown5d1zq_XnZ2dnUVZ_gOdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>
>>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
>>>>> news:TOadnWsukam6dazXnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dillon Pyron wrote:
>>>>>>> Thus spake Brian Smith <Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>>>>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of
>>>>>>>>> moisture is only a secondary effect of providing cool
>>>>>>>>> air.(IOW,I think you're wrong)
>>>>>>>> The removal of humidity from the air is what causes the
>>>>>>>> cooling effect.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Incorrect. Expansion of compressed gases is what causes the
>>>>>>> cooling effect.
>>>>> Not for the human body.
>>>>> you can fart all you want and it's not going to cool you one bit.
>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>> while that effect exists, it's small beer compared to the real
>>>>>> heat exchange mechanism - that of changing phase from liquid to
>>>>>> gas. it's liquid /evaporation/ that causes the cooling effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The removal of moisture is a side effect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One can dehumidfy one's car without cooling it. I frequently
>>>>>>> have the compressor on during the winter to dry out the air, even
>>>>>>> though I'm also running the heater.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Remember that the hot interior of the car is not affected by
>>>>>>>>> moisture content.Thus the need for -cool air-,to pull out that
>>>>>>>>> heat.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating
>>>>>>>>> heavily)
>>>>>>>> See above.
>>>>>>> Says someone in Nova Scotia.
>>>>>>>
>>>>> AIUI,Elmo was claiming that a -person- is cooled more by the
>>>>> lowering of humidity than by the cool air itself.He said the
>>>>> -primary reason- for auto AC is to lower interior humidity,that the
>>>>> cold air is just a means of doing that.
>>>>> Of course,the example of dry hot desert air disproves that.
>>>>> The body also radiates away heat by other means than
>>>>> perspiration,and if the body is not absorbing heat from the
>>>>> environment(being cooled by cold air),it can radiate more heat
>>>>> away.(by all means)
>>>>>
>>>> radiation is not our primary means of heat dispersal. especially
>>>> not at ambient above 98.4F. the phase change of water evaporation
>>>> otoh, that of sweating, dumps heat spectacularly well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> but if the heated environment is cooled(heat removed by AC),then the
>>> body doesn't absorb heat from it.Instead,it loses heat,by evaporation
>>> and radiation.(and conduction)
>> 1. think about it - radiation isn't going to cool in an environment
>> where ambient exceeds human temp.
>
> Thus the AC supplying COOL air,removing heat from the interior.
> When the interior's heat is removed,the body no longer needs to perspire.
>
> and the cool air affects the body sooner than any humidity reduction.
> In the desert air example,the air is already bone dry,but AC is necessary
> to -remove HEAT- from the auto interior,for the body to be comfortable.

dude, no disrespect, but that is /very/ unclear.


>
>> evaporation can and does.
>
>
>> 2. just so you're doubly sure on the concept, do the math on the
>> amount of heat lost for a 10' delta in radiation vs evaporation.
>
> you do the math,and present it.

no, you do it.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/he...nks-d_286.html

then google for boltzmann



>>
>>> removing heat from the body without removing it from the auto
>>> interior is an exercise in futility.
>
>
>

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
news:elmop-AC86B2.10204813062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:

> In article <Xns9C29565C57577jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.85>,
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> > and in fact I've seen ignorant people DEMAND that Honda disable the
>> > feature that turns on the AC every time you hit the windshield
>> > defrost button--because they absolutely INSIST that it shouldn't
>> > happen that way, period.
>>
>> You call them "ignorant";maybe they just don't like the AC coming on
>> without them specifically turning it on.
>
> When they drive around with fogged windows because "I don't need the
> AC on, it's 63 degrees outside!" then they're ignorant.

perhaps they aren't hitting the DEFROST button to defog their windows.
It would be "ignorant" to force them into that mode against the user's
wish.
most of the time,just adding a little bit of heat defogs a window,no need
to run AC and lower one's gas mileage and performance.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:zuadnfM744HUJa7XnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
>> news:Vr-dnRdd-LigZa_XnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@speakeasy.net:
>>
>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
>>>> news:Jr2dnYown5d1zq_XnZ2dnUVZ_gOdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>>
>>>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
>>>>>> news:TOadnWsukam6dazXnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dillon Pyron wrote:
>>>>>>>> Thus spake Brian Smith <Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal
>>>>>>>>>> of moisture is only a secondary effect of providing cool
>>>>>>>>>> air.(IOW,I think you're wrong)
>>>>>>>>> The removal of humidity from the air is what causes the
>>>>>>>>> cooling effect.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Incorrect. Expansion of compressed gases is what causes the
>>>>>>>> cooling effect.
>>>>>> Not for the human body.
>>>>>> you can fart all you want and it's not going to cool you one bit.
>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>> while that effect exists, it's small beer compared to the real
>>>>>>> heat exchange mechanism - that of changing phase from liquid to
>>>>>>> gas. it's liquid /evaporation/ that causes the cooling effect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The removal of moisture is a side effect.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One can dehumidfy one's car without cooling it. I frequently
>>>>>>>> have the compressor on during the winter to dry out the air,
>>>>>>>> even though I'm also running the heater.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Remember that the hot interior of the car is not affected by
>>>>>>>>>> moisture content.Thus the need for -cool air-,to pull out
>>>>>>>>>> that heat.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from
>>>>>>>>>> sweating heavily)
>>>>>>>>> See above.
>>>>>>>> Says someone in Nova Scotia.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> AIUI,Elmo was claiming that a -person- is cooled more by the
>>>>>> lowering of humidity than by the cool air itself.He said the
>>>>>> -primary reason- for auto AC is to lower interior humidity,that
>>>>>> the cold air is just a means of doing that.
>>>>>> Of course,the example of dry hot desert air disproves that.
>>>>>> The body also radiates away heat by other means than
>>>>>> perspiration,and if the body is not absorbing heat from the
>>>>>> environment(being cooled by cold air),it can radiate more heat
>>>>>> away.(by all means)
>>>>>>
>>>>> radiation is not our primary means of heat dispersal. especially
>>>>> not at ambient above 98.4F. the phase change of water evaporation
>>>>> otoh, that of sweating, dumps heat spectacularly well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> but if the heated environment is cooled(heat removed by AC),then
>>>> the body doesn't absorb heat from it.Instead,it loses heat,by
>>>> evaporation and radiation.(and conduction)
>>> 1. think about it - radiation isn't going to cool in an environment
>>> where ambient exceeds human temp.
>>
>> Thus the AC supplying COOL air,removing heat from the interior.
>> When the interior's heat is removed,the body no longer needs to
>> perspire.
>>
>> and the cool air affects the body sooner than any humidity reduction.
>> In the desert air example,the air is already bone dry,but AC is
>> necessary to -remove HEAT- from the auto interior,for the body to be
>> comfortable.
>
> dude, no disrespect, but that is /very/ unclear.

How clear does it have to be for you?
Hot,DRY air needs no humidity removal.

But for a person to be comfortable,removal of excess -heat- is necessary.
No matter how much moisture you pull out of the interior air,it's not going
to make you comforatble until you dump the HEAT from the interior,that is
what's making you sweat in the first place.
It's called addressing the ROOT of the problem.

But,heck,maybe repeating this isn't going to sink in for you.
>
>
>>
>>> evaporation can and does.
>>
>>
>>> 2. just so you're doubly sure on the concept, do the math on the
>>> amount of heat lost for a 10' delta in radiation vs evaporation.
>>
>> you do the math,and present it.
>
> no, you do it.
>
> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/he...nks-d_286.html
>
> then google for boltzmann

Hey;YOU made the claim,you provide the math/evidence.
>
>
>
>>>
>>>> removing heat from the body without removing it from the auto
>>>> interior is an exercise in futility.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <Xns9C29BBA3D760jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:

> perhaps they aren't hitting the DEFROST button to defog their windows.

They are--they're getting warm moist air building up inside the car
because the A/C isn't on, removing the moisture.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
4901F0.18504313062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:

> In article <Xns9C29BBA3D760jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83>,
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> perhaps they aren't hitting the DEFROST button to defog their windows.
>
> They are--they're getting warm moist air building up inside the car
> because the A/C isn't on, removing the moisture.
>

ever think people may want to DEFROST their windows with the DEFROST
control? (that actually just directs the -air flow- to the windshield
instead of other vents.)
Maybe they just want to direct some heat onto the window to clear it.
Maybe they DONT WANT to run the AC unless they push the AC button.

you seem to think that one uncommon situation is the -primary- reason for
AC,and it's NOT.

AC's PRIMARY purpose is to remove heat from the interior.
That is what it's used for the most often.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

In article <Xns9C29C6C8D4A63jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:

> AC's PRIMARY purpose is to remove heat from the interior.

No, it's not.

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
E1A263.21005413062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:

> In article <Xns9C29C6C8D4A63jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83>,
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> AC's PRIMARY purpose is to remove heat from the interior.
>
> No, it's not.
>

you agreed in an earlier post.

here's a replay of your earlier post;
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
C2D962.01180513062009@mara100-84.onlink.net:

> In article <Xns9C28C9A739BB7jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.86>,
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> That shows that people generally do NOT use AC in cooler weather.
>
> yes,

So you finally admit that the majority of users DON'T use AC -for- humidity
removal,thus it cannot be the -primary- reason for AC.
Thanks for proving my point.

> and in fact I've seen ignorant people DEMAND that Honda disable the
> feature that turns on the AC every time you hit the windshield defrost
> button--because they absolutely INSIST that it shouldn't happen that
> way, period.

You call them "ignorant";maybe they just don't like the AC coming on
without them specifically turning it on.
Who wants the AC coming on when it's cold outside and the windshield is
FROSTY? In cold weather,the air is typically "dry";low humidity.No need to
remove humidity.All you need then is heat.

You're too quick to use the term "ignorant".

Perhaps -most- autos do NOT turn the AC on for windshield defrost.


>
> I also see people in modern A/C equipped cars that don't do that,
> driving around in damp weather with fogged windows.
>
> Ignorance is rampant.
>

there you go again.
______

End replay.

You agreed with me,but now are back to your original nonsense that a seldom
used situation is a "primary" reason for AC.

Perhaps you need to learn what "primary" means.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Jim Yanik wrote:
>
> Perhaps you need to learn what "primary" means.

Apparently it is the class that many people should be in here. ;^)

Re: Door Locks & Defoggers ?
 

Thus spake Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> :

>jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
>news:TOadnWsukam6dazXnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@speakeasy.n et:
>
>> Dillon Pyron wrote:
>>> Thus spake Brian Smith <Halifax@NovaScotia.Canada> :
>>>
>>>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>> IMO,the intent of AC is to provide cool air,and the removal of
>>>>> moisture is only a secondary effect of providing cool air.(IOW,I
>>>>> think you're wrong)
>>>> The removal of humidity from the air is what causes the cooling
>>>> effect.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Incorrect. Expansion of compressed gases is what causes the cooling
>>> effect.
>
>Not for the human body.
>you can fart all you want and it's not going to cool you one bit. ;-)

Fewer people in the room. That's got to cool it down, some.
>>
>> while that effect exists, it's small beer compared to the real heat
>> exchange mechanism - that of changing phase from liquid to gas. it's
>> liquid /evaporation/ that causes the cooling effect.
>>
>>
>>> The removal of moisture is a side effect.
>>>
>>> One can dehumidfy one's car without cooling it. I frequently have
>>> the compressor on during the winter to dry out the air, even though
>>> I'm also running the heater.
>>>
>>>>> Remember that the hot interior of the car is not affected by
>>>>> moisture content.Thus the need for -cool air-,to pull out that
>>>>> heat.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is what makes you comfortable.(and keeps you from sweating
>>>>> heavily)
>>>> See above.
>>>
>>> Says someone in Nova Scotia.
>>>
>>
>
>AIUI,Elmo was claiming that a -person- is cooled more by the lowering of
>humidity than by the cool air itself.He said the -primary reason- for auto
>AC is to lower interior humidity,that the cold air is just a means of doing
>that.
>Of course,the example of dry hot desert air disproves that.
>The body also radiates away heat by other means than perspiration,and if
>the body is not absorbing heat from the environment(being cooled by cold
>air),it can radiate more heat away.(by all means)

Once the air temp gets above ~96 F, the human body can't effectively
radiate any heat, since the air is now warmer than the skin. And once
RH goes above about 70%, perspiration becomes less effective. Which
is why it sucked to be in Houston this weekend.
--

- dillon I am not invalid

"Gee, Jimmy,I'm sorry to hear that your girlfriend
turned out to be a Cylon."
-Special Agent Tim McGee, "NCIS"