Honda/Toyota vs American
 

There is another thread about new Lexus and Toyota models that has just run
too long. Accordingly, I wanted to spin off that conversation with a new
thread. There was discussion about buying Lexus versus Lincoln. One of the
things that I realized is that, more or less, Toyota/Honda vehicles are
priced by the market, both new and used, as if the car will last 150,000
miles while American vehicles are generally priced as if the vehicles will
last 100,000 miles. Meaning that at 50,000MI, a Honda/Toyota will still be
worth about 2/3 of the original price while an American vehicle will be
worth about half. This is merely a very rough rule of thumb, but something
I've noticed. Even new, the US vehicles can't be sold unless Detroit rebates
it's way to a sale, so the "out the door" price is much less than the "out
the door" price of a Toy/Hon. Even though the sticker prices are similar.
Again, this seems to reflect that the market assumes the Toy/Hon will go
150,000 miles before major trouble vs merely 100,000 for the US vehicle. My
point is that buying similar sized-categorized vehicles from Toy/Hon vs US
is no longer an apples to apples comparison. (I realize that many vehicles
go 200,000 to 300,000 miles...maybe more....of both American and Japanese
build. But my point is that THE MARKET prices Toy/Hon vehicles to last about
50% longer).

Re: Honda/Toyota vs American
 

"D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:IsKdnbVQgqF-6fLfRVn-sw@comcast.com...
> There is another thread about new Lexus and Toyota models that has just
> run
> too long. Accordingly, I wanted to spin off that conversation with a new
> thread.

Good idea!

There was discussion about buying Lexus versus Lincoln. One of the
> things that I realized is that, more or less, Toyota/Honda vehicles are
> priced by the market, both new and used, as if the car will last 150,000
> miles while American vehicles are generally priced as if the vehicles will
> last 100,000 miles. Meaning that at 50,000MI, a Honda/Toyota will still be
> worth about 2/3 of the original price while an American vehicle will be
> worth about half. This is merely a very rough rule of thumb, but something
> I've noticed. Even new, the US vehicles can't be sold unless Detroit
> rebates
> it's way to a sale, so the "out the door" price is much less than the "out
> the door" price of a Toy/Hon. Even though the sticker prices are similar.
> Again, this seems to reflect that the market assumes the Toy/Hon will go
> 150,000 miles before major trouble vs merely 100,000 for the US vehicle.
> My
> point is that buying similar sized-categorized vehicles from Toy/Hon vs US
> is no longer an apples to apples comparison. (I realize that many vehicles
> go 200,000 to 300,000 miles...maybe more....of both American and Japanese
> build. But my point is that THE MARKET prices Toy/Hon vehicles to last
> about
> 50% longer).

Too many people have been burned by Ford/Lincoln, I suspect.

In fairness, the market lags changes in quality somewhat because people only
know what they *had* as opposed to what they are getting. It takes a long
time to build a good reputation and a short time to build a bad one. The
last Dodge I had went bye-bye 15 years ago, and I have no intention of ever
buying another. One son had a Taurus that I helped him with occasionally,
and I say "no, thanks" to that also. Now he has a new Chevy Cobalt, and I'm
watching it. I had a Nissan 300ZX that still makes me wake up in a cold
sweat with all the electrical nightmares. Our Toyota and my daughter's Honda
have been solid values and I'd buy either brand again, even at a significant
premium. It's that simple.

Mike

Re: Honda/Toyota vs American
 

Unfortunately for Detroit, that's been the experience of many Americans.
Including my 70 year old "I'll never buy foreign" mother who is happily
enjoying her now 3 year old, no-hassle Camry after enduring 4 years of
endless recalls and repairs on a 1998 (or was it a '97?) Mercury Mistake
(Mystique).

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
news:V7SdnfHCJvEGGvLfRVn-2w@sedona.net...
> "D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:IsKdnbVQgqF-6fLfRVn-sw@comcast.com...
>> There is another thread about new Lexus and Toyota models that has just
>> run
>> too long. Accordingly, I wanted to spin off that conversation with a new
>> thread.
>
> Good idea!
>
> There was discussion about buying Lexus versus Lincoln. One of the
>> things that I realized is that, more or less, Toyota/Honda vehicles are
>> priced by the market, both new and used, as if the car will last 150,000
>> miles while American vehicles are generally priced as if the vehicles
>> will
>> last 100,000 miles. Meaning that at 50,000MI, a Honda/Toyota will still
>> be
>> worth about 2/3 of the original price while an American vehicle will be
>> worth about half. This is merely a very rough rule of thumb, but
>> something
>> I've noticed. Even new, the US vehicles can't be sold unless Detroit
>> rebates
>> it's way to a sale, so the "out the door" price is much less than the
>> "out
>> the door" price of a Toy/Hon. Even though the sticker prices are similar.
>> Again, this seems to reflect that the market assumes the Toy/Hon will go
>> 150,000 miles before major trouble vs merely 100,000 for the US vehicle.
>> My
>> point is that buying similar sized-categorized vehicles from Toy/Hon vs
>> US
>> is no longer an apples to apples comparison. (I realize that many
>> vehicles
>> go 200,000 to 300,000 miles...maybe more....of both American and Japanese
>> build. But my point is that THE MARKET prices Toy/Hon vehicles to last
>> about
>> 50% longer).
>
> Too many people have been burned by Ford/Lincoln, I suspect.
>
> In fairness, the market lags changes in quality somewhat because people
> only know what they *had* as opposed to what they are getting. It takes a
> long time to build a good reputation and a short time to build a bad one.
> The last Dodge I had went bye-bye 15 years ago, and I have no intention of
> ever buying another. One son had a Taurus that I helped him with
> occasionally, and I say "no, thanks" to that also. Now he has a new Chevy
> Cobalt, and I'm watching it. I had a Nissan 300ZX that still makes me wake
> up in a cold sweat with all the electrical nightmares. Our Toyota and my
> daughter's Honda have been solid values and I'd buy either brand again,
> even at a significant premium. It's that simple.
>
> Mike
>

Re: Honda/Toyota vs American
 

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
news:V7SdnfHCJvEGGvLfRVn-2w@sedona.net:


> Too many people have been burned by Ford/Lincoln, I suspect.


My father-in-law and several other people I know will never buy another
Ford. Too many suspension, ABS and automatic transmission failures.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Honda/Toyota vs American
 

In article <Z9adnde9GMcOFvLfRVn-1A@comcast.com>, "D.D. Palmer"
<ddpalmer@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Unfortunately for Detroit, that's been the experience of many Americans.
> Including my 70 year old "I'll never buy foreign" mother who is happily
> enjoying her now 3 year old, no-hassle Camry after enduring 4 years of
> endless recalls and repairs on a 1998 (or was it a '97?) Mercury Mistake
> (Mystique).


Mystique,
I agree. My last American car was a Chevy Monza. It was so bad that GM
eventually quit making them since they developed a bad reputation due to
the fact that were always having various engine problems. That was my last
American car. The American car companies like GM and Ford need to make
some major changes if they want to continue operating.
Jason

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

Re: Honda/Toyota vs American
 

"D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Unfortunately for Detroit, that's been the experience of many Americans.
>Including my 70 year old "I'll never buy foreign" mother who is happily
>enjoying her now 3 year old, no-hassle Camry after enduring 4 years of
>endless recalls and repairs on a 1998 (or was it a '97?) Mercury Mistake
>(Mystique).

A Camry made in the US (Georgetown, Kentucky) or a Camry made in Japan?

I'm not sure how to classify a foreign-label car made in the US - or,
for that matter, a US-label car with significant parts from overseas
(Ford Escape, with Toyota hybrid system).



--
Jack Hamilton
Sacramento, California
--
<> Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit.
<> François VI, duc de La Rochefoucauld

Re: Honda/Toyota vs American
 

OK, granted the Camry was made in Kentucky. Which PROVES that Americans CAN
make a quality vehicle. But you fully understand what I mean by "foreign" or
"Japanese". Bottom line is that the PROFITS go to Japan...and they have BIG
profits, unlike Detroit. Hey, I don't mean to bash for the sake of bashing,
but am just pointing out that the market is pricing more miles-per-car into
Japan.

"Jack Hamilton" <jfh@acm.org> wrote in message
news:5nkv61pvji3n761fbenmp3j0gdulp2a919@4ax.com...
> "D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Unfortunately for Detroit, that's been the experience of many Americans.
>>Including my 70 year old "I'll never buy foreign" mother who is happily
>>enjoying her now 3 year old, no-hassle Camry after enduring 4 years of
>>endless recalls and repairs on a 1998 (or was it a '97?) Mercury Mistake
>>(Mystique).
>
> A Camry made in the US (Georgetown, Kentucky) or a Camry made in Japan?
>
> I'm not sure how to classify a foreign-label car made in the US - or,
> for that matter, a US-label car with significant parts from overseas
> (Ford Escape, with Toyota hybrid system).
>
>
>
> --
> Jack Hamilton
> Sacramento, California
> --
> <> Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit.
> <> François VI, duc de La Rochefoucauld

Re: Honda/Toyota vs American
 

"Jack Hamilton" <jfh@acm.org> wrote in message
news:5nkv61pvji3n761fbenmp3j0gdulp2a919@4ax.com...
> "D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Unfortunately for Detroit, that's been the experience of many Americans.
>>Including my 70 year old "I'll never buy foreign" mother who is happily
>>enjoying her now 3 year old, no-hassle Camry after enduring 4 years of
>>endless recalls and repairs on a 1998 (or was it a '97?) Mercury Mistake
>>(Mystique).
>
> A Camry made in the US (Georgetown, Kentucky) or a Camry made in Japan?
>
> I'm not sure how to classify a foreign-label car made in the US - or,
> for that matter, a US-label car with significant parts from overseas
> (Ford Escape, with Toyota hybrid system).
>

Most of the problems with the cars I have fought were design problems rather
than construction quality issues. The Dodge I had even had a Mitsubishi
power train, and it was the worst system in the car. But the Taurus had a 6
inch clutch(!!!!) on a large 4 cylinder engine and a raft of other screwy
design problems. So I don't buy or recommend Mitsubishi, Nissan, Dodge or
Ford. Still watching Chevy.

Mike

Re: Honda/Toyota vs American
 

In article <KqCdnQnQ7qhKfPLfRVn-hA@comcast.com>, "D.D. Palmer"
<ddpalmer@hotmail.com> wrote:

> OK, granted the Camry was made in Kentucky. Which PROVES that Americans CAN
> make a quality vehicle. But you fully understand what I mean by "foreign" or
> "Japanese". Bottom line is that the PROFITS go to Japan...and they have BIG
> profits, unlike Detroit. Hey, I don't mean to bash for the sake of bashing,
> but am just pointing out that the market is pricing more miles-per-car into
> Japan.
>
> "Jack Hamilton" <jfh@acm.org> wrote in message
> news:5nkv61pvji3n761fbenmp3j0gdulp2a919@4ax.com...
> > "D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Unfortunately for Detroit, that's been the experience of many Americans.
> >>Including my 70 year old "I'll never buy foreign" mother who is happily
> >>enjoying her now 3 year old, no-hassle Camry after enduring 4 years of
> >>endless recalls and repairs on a 1998 (or was it a '97?) Mercury Mistake
> >>(Mystique).
> >
> > A Camry made in the US (Georgetown, Kentucky) or a Camry made in Japan?
> >
> > I'm not sure how to classify a foreign-label car made in the US - or,
> > for that matter, a US-label car with significant parts from overseas
> > (Ford Escape, with Toyota hybrid system).
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jack Hamilton
> > Sacramento, California

Jack,
I believe the American factories that produce cars like the Camry and
Accord are officially called "Assembly Plants". This simply means that
they assembly cars that were designed under the supervision of engineers
in or from Japan. In fact, my Accord was made in Japan and it's just like
the Accords that were "assembled" in American.

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

Re: Honda/Toyota vs American
 

Your kid bot a Cobalt? A first-year GM ANYTHING...let alone the
bottom-of-the-line Chevy? A bad, bad, bet.


"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
news:iqydnfvDVfAlte3fRVn-rA@sedona.net...
> "Jack Hamilton" <jfh@acm.org> wrote in message
> news:5nkv61pvji3n761fbenmp3j0gdulp2a919@4ax.com...
>> "D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Unfortunately for Detroit, that's been the experience of many Americans.
>>>Including my 70 year old "I'll never buy foreign" mother who is happily
>>>enjoying her now 3 year old, no-hassle Camry after enduring 4 years of
>>>endless recalls and repairs on a 1998 (or was it a '97?) Mercury Mistake
>>>(Mystique).
>>
>> A Camry made in the US (Georgetown, Kentucky) or a Camry made in Japan?
>>
>> I'm not sure how to classify a foreign-label car made in the US - or,
>> for that matter, a US-label car with significant parts from overseas
>> (Ford Escape, with Toyota hybrid system).
>>
>
> Most of the problems with the cars I have fought were design problems
> rather than construction quality issues. The Dodge I had even had a
> Mitsubishi power train, and it was the worst system in the car. But the
> Taurus had a 6 inch clutch(!!!!) on a large 4 cylinder engine and a raft
> of other screwy design problems. So I don't buy or recommend Mitsubishi,
> Nissan, Dodge or Ford. Still watching Chevy.
>
> Mike
>

Re: Honda/Toyota vs American
 

"D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:UqydnZ8-Vvj_s-3fRVn-sA@comcast.com...
> Your kid bot a Cobalt? A first-year GM ANYTHING...let alone the
> bottom-of-the-line Chevy? A bad, bad, bet.
>
He's a big boy - I wouldn't have gone that way, but hey....

Mike

Re: Honda/Toyota vs American
 

"D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:KqCdnQnQ7qhKfPLfRVn-hA@comcast.com:

> OK, granted the Camry was made in Kentucky. Which PROVES that
> Americans CAN make a quality vehicle. But you fully understand what I
> mean by "foreign" or "Japanese". Bottom line is that the PROFITS go to
> Japan...and they have BIG profits, unlike Detroit. Hey, I don't mean
> to bash for the sake of bashing, but am just pointing out that the
> market is pricing more miles-per-car into Japan.

The wages paid to AMERICAN workers making Toyotas/Hondas/Mazdas,BMWs and
their parts get spent right here in the US,benefitting a lot of Americans.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Honda/Toyota vs American
 

jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
news:jason-2704051720050001@pm4-broad-38.snlo.dialup.fix.net:

> In article <KqCdnQnQ7qhKfPLfRVn-hA@comcast.com>, "D.D. Palmer"
><ddpalmer@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> OK, granted the Camry was made in Kentucky. Which PROVES that
>> Americans CAN make a quality vehicle. But you fully understand what I
>> mean by "foreign" or "Japanese". Bottom line is that the PROFITS go
>> to Japan...and they have BIG profits, unlike Detroit. Hey, I don't
>> mean to bash for the sake of bashing, but am just pointing out that
>> the market is pricing more miles-per-car into Japan.
>>
>> "Jack Hamilton" <jfh@acm.org> wrote in message
>> news:5nkv61pvji3n761fbenmp3j0gdulp2a919@4ax.com...
>> > "D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Unfortunately for Detroit, that's been the experience of many
>> >>Americans. Including my 70 year old "I'll never buy foreign" mother
>> >>who is happily enjoying her now 3 year old, no-hassle Camry after
>> >>enduring 4 years of endless recalls and repairs on a 1998 (or was
>> >>it a '97?) Mercury Mistake (Mystique).
>> >
>> > A Camry made in the US (Georgetown, Kentucky) or a Camry made in
>> > Japan?
>> >
>> > I'm not sure how to classify a foreign-label car made in the US -
>> > or, for that matter, a US-label car with significant parts from
>> > overseas (Ford Escape, with Toyota hybrid system).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Jack Hamilton
>> > Sacramento, California
>
> Jack,
> I believe the American factories that produce cars like the Camry and
> Accord are officially called "Assembly Plants". This simply means that
> they assembly cars that were designed under the supervision of
> engineers in or from Japan. In fact, my Accord was made in Japan and
> it's just like the Accords that were "assembled" in American.
>

Honda makes most of their auto parts here in the US.
They have an engine plant in Ohio.
Some of the other foreign makes bring in assemblies to be assembled.

Some of the -design- is also done in California by Americans.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Honda/Toyota vs American
 

Honda made most of their vehicles in Canada. In California, we can find
Camry made in Japan.


"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in message
news:Xns9646816389F21jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.85.. .
> jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
> news:jason-2704051720050001@pm4-broad-38.snlo.dialup.fix.net:
>
> > In article <KqCdnQnQ7qhKfPLfRVn-hA@comcast.com>, "D.D. Palmer"
> ><ddpalmer@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> OK, granted the Camry was made in Kentucky. Which PROVES that
> >> Americans CAN make a quality vehicle. But you fully understand what I
> >> mean by "foreign" or "Japanese". Bottom line is that the PROFITS go
> >> to Japan...and they have BIG profits, unlike Detroit. Hey, I don't
> >> mean to bash for the sake of bashing, but am just pointing out that
> >> the market is pricing more miles-per-car into Japan.
> >>
> >> "Jack Hamilton" <jfh@acm.org> wrote in message
> >> news:5nkv61pvji3n761fbenmp3j0gdulp2a919@4ax.com...
> >> > "D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>Unfortunately for Detroit, that's been the experience of many
> >> >>Americans. Including my 70 year old "I'll never buy foreign" mother
> >> >>who is happily enjoying her now 3 year old, no-hassle Camry after
> >> >>enduring 4 years of endless recalls and repairs on a 1998 (or was
> >> >>it a '97?) Mercury Mistake (Mystique).
> >> >
> >> > A Camry made in the US (Georgetown, Kentucky) or a Camry made in
> >> > Japan?
> >> >
> >> > I'm not sure how to classify a foreign-label car made in the US -
> >> > or, for that matter, a US-label car with significant parts from
> >> > overseas (Ford Escape, with Toyota hybrid system).
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Jack Hamilton
> >> > Sacramento, California
> >
> > Jack,
> > I believe the American factories that produce cars like the Camry and
> > Accord are officially called "Assembly Plants". This simply means that
> > they assembly cars that were designed under the supervision of
> > engineers in or from Japan. In fact, my Accord was made in Japan and
> > it's just like the Accords that were "assembled" in American.
> >
>
> Honda makes most of their auto parts here in the US.
> They have an engine plant in Ohio.
> Some of the other foreign makes bring in assemblies to be assembled.
>
> Some of the -design- is also done in California by Americans.
>
> --
> Jim Yanik
> jyanik
> at
> kua.net

Re: Honda/Toyota vs American
 

In article <Xns964680F6EACAAjyanikkuanet@129.250.170.85>, Jim Yanik
<jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote:

> "D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:KqCdnQnQ7qhKfPLfRVn-hA@comcast.com:
>
> > OK, granted the Camry was made in Kentucky. Which PROVES that
> > Americans CAN make a quality vehicle. But you fully understand what I
> > mean by "foreign" or "Japanese". Bottom line is that the PROFITS go to
> > Japan...and they have BIG profits, unlike Detroit. Hey, I don't mean
> > to bash for the sake of bashing, but am just pointing out that the
> > market is pricing more miles-per-car into Japan.
>
> The wages paid to AMERICAN workers making Toyotas/Hondas/Mazdas,BMWs and
> their parts get spent right here in the US,benefitting a lot of Americans.

JIm,
Great point. I think that it's great that thousands of Americans are
working in various assembly plants owned and operated by Japanese car
companies and car product companies. I even think that it's great that
Americans (regardless of their race) are working as design engineers for
Japanese car companies. My only point was that Japanese car companies in
Japan, Canada and the USA do a much better job making vehicles.

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.