main relay vs ignition switch while driving
#76
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
> Burt wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>
>>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6
>>> on 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a
>>> vehicle was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently
>>> had problems with it for some time prior to selling.
>>
>> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
>> electrical components that will last.
>>
>>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still
>>> say this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is
>>> low quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to
>>> prevent intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say
>>> mitsuba knew exactly what they were doing with this relay right from
>>> the start [relays are old technology and their problems are well
>>> known] and that they elected to go for what they knew would result
>>> in life limitation.
>>
>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>
> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
electromechanical relay.
Lots of destructive spikes in an auto electrical system.
>
>>
>>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed.
>>> on disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated
>>> breaking the electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the
>>> rivet was held in tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep
>>> over time, especially when kept warm. life limitation? you bet!
>>> there was no other practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo.
>>> a fuse would have protected against overload and the spring had no
>>> mechanical function. anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and
>>> the clock worked again, just like a repaired relay.
>>
>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
connection.
>
> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
> Burt wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>
>>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6
>>> on 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a
>>> vehicle was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently
>>> had problems with it for some time prior to selling.
>>
>> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
>> electrical components that will last.
>>
>>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still
>>> say this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is
>>> low quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to
>>> prevent intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say
>>> mitsuba knew exactly what they were doing with this relay right from
>>> the start [relays are old technology and their problems are well
>>> known] and that they elected to go for what they knew would result
>>> in life limitation.
>>
>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>
> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
electromechanical relay.
Lots of destructive spikes in an auto electrical system.
>
>>
>>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed.
>>> on disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated
>>> breaking the electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the
>>> rivet was held in tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep
>>> over time, especially when kept warm. life limitation? you bet!
>>> there was no other practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo.
>>> a fuse would have protected against overload and the spring had no
>>> mechanical function. anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and
>>> the clock worked again, just like a repaired relay.
>>
>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
connection.
>
> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
#77
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> Burt wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>> newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>
>>>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6
>>>> on 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a
>>>> vehicle was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently
>>>> had problems with it for some time prior to selling.
>>> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
>>> electrical components that will last.
>>>
>>>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>>>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>>>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>>>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>>>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>>>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>>>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still
>>>> say this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is
>>>> low quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to
>>>> prevent intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say
>>>> mitsuba knew exactly what they were doing with this relay right from
>>>> the start [relays are old technology and their problems are well
>>>> known] and that they elected to go for what they knew would result
>>>> in life limitation.
>>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
>> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
> electromechanical relay.
> Lots of destructive spikes in an auto electrical system.
indeed. interestingly, since i fitted magnecor plug leads to my civic,
shifting has been much better [it's automatic]. i haven't scoped the
"before & after" on any of the ecu inputs, but it seems to me that if
ignition-induced signal noise is suppressed, the ecu can manage its
business a bit better. probably wouldn't be noticeable on a stick, but
on the auto, it doesn't "fluff" around shift points any more. weird,
but most welcome. i haven't touched anything else. didn't even take
the plugs out.
>
>
>>>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed.
>>>> on disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated
>>>> breaking the electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the
>>>> rivet was held in tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep
>>>> over time, especially when kept warm. life limitation? you bet!
>>>> there was no other practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo.
>>>> a fuse would have protected against overload and the spring had no
>>>> mechanical function. anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and
>>>> the clock worked again, just like a repaired relay.
>>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>
> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
> connection.
no, wasn't bi-metal, it was literally a lead-type rivet holding a brass
tab into which one end of the spring was hooked, with the other end of
the spring hooked into another part of the chassis. maybe it was
bismuth with a low melting point like those trick spoons. but the point
is, it served no purpose that a fuse couldn't perform, and once failed,
the clock not only didn't work but was "irreparable". bizarre why
anyone would go to such lengths to obsolete a clock.
>> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
>> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
>> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
>> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
>> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
>> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>>
>
>
>
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> Burt wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>> newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>
>>>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6
>>>> on 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a
>>>> vehicle was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently
>>>> had problems with it for some time prior to selling.
>>> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
>>> electrical components that will last.
>>>
>>>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>>>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>>>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>>>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>>>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>>>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>>>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still
>>>> say this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is
>>>> low quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to
>>>> prevent intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say
>>>> mitsuba knew exactly what they were doing with this relay right from
>>>> the start [relays are old technology and their problems are well
>>>> known] and that they elected to go for what they knew would result
>>>> in life limitation.
>>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
>> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
> electromechanical relay.
> Lots of destructive spikes in an auto electrical system.
indeed. interestingly, since i fitted magnecor plug leads to my civic,
shifting has been much better [it's automatic]. i haven't scoped the
"before & after" on any of the ecu inputs, but it seems to me that if
ignition-induced signal noise is suppressed, the ecu can manage its
business a bit better. probably wouldn't be noticeable on a stick, but
on the auto, it doesn't "fluff" around shift points any more. weird,
but most welcome. i haven't touched anything else. didn't even take
the plugs out.
>
>
>>>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed.
>>>> on disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated
>>>> breaking the electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the
>>>> rivet was held in tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep
>>>> over time, especially when kept warm. life limitation? you bet!
>>>> there was no other practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo.
>>>> a fuse would have protected against overload and the spring had no
>>>> mechanical function. anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and
>>>> the clock worked again, just like a repaired relay.
>>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>
> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
> connection.
no, wasn't bi-metal, it was literally a lead-type rivet holding a brass
tab into which one end of the spring was hooked, with the other end of
the spring hooked into another part of the chassis. maybe it was
bismuth with a low melting point like those trick spoons. but the point
is, it served no purpose that a fuse couldn't perform, and once failed,
the clock not only didn't work but was "irreparable". bizarre why
anyone would go to such lengths to obsolete a clock.
>> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
>> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
>> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
>> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
>> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
>> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>>
>
>
>
#78
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> Burt wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>> newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>
>>>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6
>>>> on 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a
>>>> vehicle was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently
>>>> had problems with it for some time prior to selling.
>>> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
>>> electrical components that will last.
>>>
>>>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>>>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>>>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>>>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>>>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>>>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>>>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still
>>>> say this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is
>>>> low quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to
>>>> prevent intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say
>>>> mitsuba knew exactly what they were doing with this relay right from
>>>> the start [relays are old technology and their problems are well
>>>> known] and that they elected to go for what they knew would result
>>>> in life limitation.
>>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
>> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
> electromechanical relay.
> Lots of destructive spikes in an auto electrical system.
indeed. interestingly, since i fitted magnecor plug leads to my civic,
shifting has been much better [it's automatic]. i haven't scoped the
"before & after" on any of the ecu inputs, but it seems to me that if
ignition-induced signal noise is suppressed, the ecu can manage its
business a bit better. probably wouldn't be noticeable on a stick, but
on the auto, it doesn't "fluff" around shift points any more. weird,
but most welcome. i haven't touched anything else. didn't even take
the plugs out.
>
>
>>>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed.
>>>> on disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated
>>>> breaking the electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the
>>>> rivet was held in tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep
>>>> over time, especially when kept warm. life limitation? you bet!
>>>> there was no other practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo.
>>>> a fuse would have protected against overload and the spring had no
>>>> mechanical function. anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and
>>>> the clock worked again, just like a repaired relay.
>>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>
> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
> connection.
no, wasn't bi-metal, it was literally a lead-type rivet holding a brass
tab into which one end of the spring was hooked, with the other end of
the spring hooked into another part of the chassis. maybe it was
bismuth with a low melting point like those trick spoons. but the point
is, it served no purpose that a fuse couldn't perform, and once failed,
the clock not only didn't work but was "irreparable". bizarre why
anyone would go to such lengths to obsolete a clock.
>> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
>> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
>> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
>> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
>> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
>> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>>
>
>
>
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> Burt wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>> newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>
>>>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6
>>>> on 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a
>>>> vehicle was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently
>>>> had problems with it for some time prior to selling.
>>> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
>>> electrical components that will last.
>>>
>>>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>>>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>>>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>>>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>>>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>>>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>>>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still
>>>> say this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is
>>>> low quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to
>>>> prevent intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say
>>>> mitsuba knew exactly what they were doing with this relay right from
>>>> the start [relays are old technology and their problems are well
>>>> known] and that they elected to go for what they knew would result
>>>> in life limitation.
>>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
>> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
> electromechanical relay.
> Lots of destructive spikes in an auto electrical system.
indeed. interestingly, since i fitted magnecor plug leads to my civic,
shifting has been much better [it's automatic]. i haven't scoped the
"before & after" on any of the ecu inputs, but it seems to me that if
ignition-induced signal noise is suppressed, the ecu can manage its
business a bit better. probably wouldn't be noticeable on a stick, but
on the auto, it doesn't "fluff" around shift points any more. weird,
but most welcome. i haven't touched anything else. didn't even take
the plugs out.
>
>
>>>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed.
>>>> on disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated
>>>> breaking the electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the
>>>> rivet was held in tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep
>>>> over time, especially when kept warm. life limitation? you bet!
>>>> there was no other practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo.
>>>> a fuse would have protected against overload and the spring had no
>>>> mechanical function. anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and
>>>> the clock worked again, just like a repaired relay.
>>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>
> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
> connection.
no, wasn't bi-metal, it was literally a lead-type rivet holding a brass
tab into which one end of the spring was hooked, with the other end of
the spring hooked into another part of the chassis. maybe it was
bismuth with a low melting point like those trick spoons. but the point
is, it served no purpose that a fuse couldn't perform, and once failed,
the clock not only didn't work but was "irreparable". bizarre why
anyone would go to such lengths to obsolete a clock.
>> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
>> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
>> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
>> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
>> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
>> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>>
>
>
>
#79
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> Burt wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>> newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>
>>>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6
>>>> on 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a
>>>> vehicle was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently
>>>> had problems with it for some time prior to selling.
>>> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
>>> electrical components that will last.
>>>
>>>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>>>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>>>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>>>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>>>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>>>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>>>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still
>>>> say this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is
>>>> low quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to
>>>> prevent intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say
>>>> mitsuba knew exactly what they were doing with this relay right from
>>>> the start [relays are old technology and their problems are well
>>>> known] and that they elected to go for what they knew would result
>>>> in life limitation.
>>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
>> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
> electromechanical relay.
> Lots of destructive spikes in an auto electrical system.
indeed. interestingly, since i fitted magnecor plug leads to my civic,
shifting has been much better [it's automatic]. i haven't scoped the
"before & after" on any of the ecu inputs, but it seems to me that if
ignition-induced signal noise is suppressed, the ecu can manage its
business a bit better. probably wouldn't be noticeable on a stick, but
on the auto, it doesn't "fluff" around shift points any more. weird,
but most welcome. i haven't touched anything else. didn't even take
the plugs out.
>
>
>>>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed.
>>>> on disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated
>>>> breaking the electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the
>>>> rivet was held in tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep
>>>> over time, especially when kept warm. life limitation? you bet!
>>>> there was no other practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo.
>>>> a fuse would have protected against overload and the spring had no
>>>> mechanical function. anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and
>>>> the clock worked again, just like a repaired relay.
>>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>
> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
> connection.
no, wasn't bi-metal, it was literally a lead-type rivet holding a brass
tab into which one end of the spring was hooked, with the other end of
the spring hooked into another part of the chassis. maybe it was
bismuth with a low melting point like those trick spoons. but the point
is, it served no purpose that a fuse couldn't perform, and once failed,
the clock not only didn't work but was "irreparable". bizarre why
anyone would go to such lengths to obsolete a clock.
>> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
>> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
>> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
>> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
>> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
>> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>>
>
>
>
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> Burt wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>> newsqWdnSdlKqlVq5nYnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>
>>>> well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6
>>>> on 88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a
>>>> vehicle was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently
>>>> had problems with it for some time prior to selling.
>>> Yeah, the solder will fail in 8-10 years. But it's the
>>> electrical components that will last.
>>>
>>>> regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
>>>> elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
>>>> thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
>>>> problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
>>>> different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
>>>> [cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
>>>> crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still
>>>> say this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is
>>>> low quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to
>>>> prevent intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say
>>>> mitsuba knew exactly what they were doing with this relay right from
>>>> the start [relays are old technology and their problems are well
>>>> known] and that they elected to go for what they knew would result
>>>> in life limitation.
>>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
>> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
> electromechanical relay.
> Lots of destructive spikes in an auto electrical system.
indeed. interestingly, since i fitted magnecor plug leads to my civic,
shifting has been much better [it's automatic]. i haven't scoped the
"before & after" on any of the ecu inputs, but it seems to me that if
ignition-induced signal noise is suppressed, the ecu can manage its
business a bit better. probably wouldn't be noticeable on a stick, but
on the auto, it doesn't "fluff" around shift points any more. weird,
but most welcome. i haven't touched anything else. didn't even take
the plugs out.
>
>
>>>> life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed.
>>>> on disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated
>>>> breaking the electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the
>>>> rivet was held in tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep
>>>> over time, especially when kept warm. life limitation? you bet!
>>>> there was no other practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo.
>>>> a fuse would have protected against overload and the spring had no
>>>> mechanical function. anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and
>>>> the clock worked again, just like a repaired relay.
>>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>
> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
> connection.
no, wasn't bi-metal, it was literally a lead-type rivet holding a brass
tab into which one end of the spring was hooked, with the other end of
the spring hooked into another part of the chassis. maybe it was
bismuth with a low melting point like those trick spoons. but the point
is, it served no purpose that a fuse couldn't perform, and once failed,
the clock not only didn't work but was "irreparable". bizarre why
anyone would go to such lengths to obsolete a clock.
>> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
>> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
>> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
>> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
>> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
>> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>>
>
>
>
#80
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message news:Xns983BEA3247127jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
> >>
> >> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
> >> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
> >> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
> >
> > transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
> > 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
> electromechanical relay. Lots of destructive spikes in an auto
> electrical system.
Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
> >> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
> >> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>
> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
> connection.
> >
> > it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
> > would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
> > resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
> > besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
> > retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
> > rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
> >
>
> --
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
> >>
> >> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
> >> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
> >> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
> >
> > transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
> > 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
> electromechanical relay. Lots of destructive spikes in an auto
> electrical system.
Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
> >> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
> >> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>
> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
> connection.
> >
> > it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
> > would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
> > resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
> > besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
> > retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
> > rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
> >
>
> --
#81
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message news:Xns983BEA3247127jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
> >>
> >> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
> >> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
> >> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
> >
> > transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
> > 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
> electromechanical relay. Lots of destructive spikes in an auto
> electrical system.
Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
> >> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
> >> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>
> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
> connection.
> >
> > it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
> > would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
> > resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
> > besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
> > retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
> > rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
> >
>
> --
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
> >>
> >> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
> >> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
> >> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
> >
> > transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
> > 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
> electromechanical relay. Lots of destructive spikes in an auto
> electrical system.
Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
> >> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
> >> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>
> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
> connection.
> >
> > it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
> > would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
> > resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
> > besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
> > retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
> > rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
> >
>
> --
#82
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message news:Xns983BEA3247127jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
> >>
> >> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
> >> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
> >> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
> >
> > transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
> > 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
> electromechanical relay. Lots of destructive spikes in an auto
> electrical system.
Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
> >> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
> >> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>
> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
> connection.
> >
> > it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
> > would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
> > resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
> > besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
> > retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
> > rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
> >
>
> --
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
> >>
> >> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
> >> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
> >> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
> >
> > transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
> > 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
> electromechanical relay. Lots of destructive spikes in an auto
> electrical system.
Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
> >> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
> >> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>
> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
> connection.
> >
> > it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
> > would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
> > resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
> > besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
> > retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
> > rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
> >
>
> --
#83
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
Burt wrote:
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message news:Xns983BEA3247127jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>>>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>>>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>>> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
>>> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
> It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
it's watts you want to look out for. watts = volts x amps. if the
voltage drops across a p-n junction, and it does, about 0.6V, at 30A,
that's 18W you're wasting [and heat you have to dissipate]. relays, for
all their other faults, don't have that kind of problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diodes
>
>> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
>> electromechanical relay. Lots of destructive spikes in an auto
>> electrical system.
>
> Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
> mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
> arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
agreed, but they're not always the best solution. using silicon
transistors on a 12V system is going to step down your voltage 5% each
time it encounters a junction. that makes relays look attractive from
an efficiency viewpoint.
>
>>>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>>>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
>> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
>> connection.
>>> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
>>> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
>>> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
>>> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
>>> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
>>> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>>>
>> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message news:Xns983BEA3247127jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>>>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>>>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>>> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
>>> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
> It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
it's watts you want to look out for. watts = volts x amps. if the
voltage drops across a p-n junction, and it does, about 0.6V, at 30A,
that's 18W you're wasting [and heat you have to dissipate]. relays, for
all their other faults, don't have that kind of problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diodes
>
>> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
>> electromechanical relay. Lots of destructive spikes in an auto
>> electrical system.
>
> Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
> mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
> arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
agreed, but they're not always the best solution. using silicon
transistors on a 12V system is going to step down your voltage 5% each
time it encounters a junction. that makes relays look attractive from
an efficiency viewpoint.
>
>>>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>>>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
>> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
>> connection.
>>> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
>>> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
>>> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
>>> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
>>> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
>>> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>>>
>> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
#84
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
Burt wrote:
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message news:Xns983BEA3247127jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>>>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>>>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>>> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
>>> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
> It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
it's watts you want to look out for. watts = volts x amps. if the
voltage drops across a p-n junction, and it does, about 0.6V, at 30A,
that's 18W you're wasting [and heat you have to dissipate]. relays, for
all their other faults, don't have that kind of problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diodes
>
>> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
>> electromechanical relay. Lots of destructive spikes in an auto
>> electrical system.
>
> Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
> mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
> arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
agreed, but they're not always the best solution. using silicon
transistors on a 12V system is going to step down your voltage 5% each
time it encounters a junction. that makes relays look attractive from
an efficiency viewpoint.
>
>>>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>>>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
>> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
>> connection.
>>> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
>>> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
>>> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
>>> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
>>> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
>>> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>>>
>> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message news:Xns983BEA3247127jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>>>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>>>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>>> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
>>> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
> It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
it's watts you want to look out for. watts = volts x amps. if the
voltage drops across a p-n junction, and it does, about 0.6V, at 30A,
that's 18W you're wasting [and heat you have to dissipate]. relays, for
all their other faults, don't have that kind of problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diodes
>
>> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
>> electromechanical relay. Lots of destructive spikes in an auto
>> electrical system.
>
> Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
> mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
> arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
agreed, but they're not always the best solution. using silicon
transistors on a 12V system is going to step down your voltage 5% each
time it encounters a junction. that makes relays look attractive from
an efficiency viewpoint.
>
>>>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>>>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
>> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
>> connection.
>>> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
>>> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
>>> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
>>> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
>>> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
>>> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>>>
>> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
#85
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
Burt wrote:
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message news:Xns983BEA3247127jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>>>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>>>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>>> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
>>> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
> It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
it's watts you want to look out for. watts = volts x amps. if the
voltage drops across a p-n junction, and it does, about 0.6V, at 30A,
that's 18W you're wasting [and heat you have to dissipate]. relays, for
all their other faults, don't have that kind of problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diodes
>
>> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
>> electromechanical relay. Lots of destructive spikes in an auto
>> electrical system.
>
> Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
> mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
> arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
agreed, but they're not always the best solution. using silicon
transistors on a 12V system is going to step down your voltage 5% each
time it encounters a junction. that makes relays look attractive from
an efficiency viewpoint.
>
>>>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>>>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
>> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
>> connection.
>>> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
>>> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
>>> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
>>> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
>>> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
>>> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>>>
>> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message news:Xns983BEA3247127jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in news:qJKdnUFO4qA7gZvYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>>> Spot welding or crimping would be expensive and not already in
>>>> their machine assembly line. One solution might be to replace the
>>>> relays with transistors, heat-sinks and some breathing holes.
>>> transistors always drop voltage - not necessarily what you want. and
>>> 30A rated devices aren't cheap.
>
> It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
it's watts you want to look out for. watts = volts x amps. if the
voltage drops across a p-n junction, and it does, about 0.6V, at 30A,
that's 18W you're wasting [and heat you have to dissipate]. relays, for
all their other faults, don't have that kind of problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diodes
>
>> They also are much more vulnerable to failure than a simple
>> electromechanical relay. Lots of destructive spikes in an auto
>> electrical system.
>
> Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
> mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
> arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
agreed, but they're not always the best solution. using silicon
transistors on a 12V system is going to step down your voltage 5% each
time it encounters a junction. that makes relays look attractive from
an efficiency viewpoint.
>
>>>> I don't know why a spring is put into a [digital?] clock without
>>>> a purpose. You sure the spring isn't a spring resistor?
>> Maybe a bimetal thermal protection device?
>> If too much current is drawn,the strip bends and breaks the electrical
>> connection.
>>> it was an electric dial clock. no, the spring wasn't a resistor - it
>>> would have been rated at ~10+W for a milliamp application. a "real"
>>> resistor would have done the job better if that was what was required.
>>> besides, it was hooked onto the chassis at one end, and onto the tab
>>> retained by the lead rivet at the other - no reason to use a lead
>>> rivet when it could have been brass, copper, etc.
>>>
>> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
#86
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message news:6P2dnTA3ia0dGZrYnZ2dnUVZ_omdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Burt wrote:
> > It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
>
> it's watts you want to look out for. watts = volts x amps. if the
> voltage drops across a p-n junction, and it does, about 0.6V, at 30A,
> that's 18W you're wasting [and heat you have to dissipate]. relays, for
> all their other faults, don't have that kind of problem.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diodes
In applications where zero voltage drop is important there are already
ways to do this by selecting the appropriate transistor. A small voltage
drop of (.2V or .6V) isn't enough to slow down the fuel pump.
> > Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
> > mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
> > arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
>
> agreed, but they're not always the best solution. using silicon
> transistors on a 12V system is going to step down your voltage 5% each
> time it encounters a junction. that makes relays look attractive from
> an efficiency viewpoint.
The relays used in the main relays can cost more and will generate
heat. So much heat that you can't put your fingers on it for more
than a second. Eventually, it'll run so hot that the contacts will
weld together.
> Burt wrote:
> > It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
>
> it's watts you want to look out for. watts = volts x amps. if the
> voltage drops across a p-n junction, and it does, about 0.6V, at 30A,
> that's 18W you're wasting [and heat you have to dissipate]. relays, for
> all their other faults, don't have that kind of problem.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diodes
In applications where zero voltage drop is important there are already
ways to do this by selecting the appropriate transistor. A small voltage
drop of (.2V or .6V) isn't enough to slow down the fuel pump.
> > Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
> > mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
> > arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
>
> agreed, but they're not always the best solution. using silicon
> transistors on a 12V system is going to step down your voltage 5% each
> time it encounters a junction. that makes relays look attractive from
> an efficiency viewpoint.
The relays used in the main relays can cost more and will generate
heat. So much heat that you can't put your fingers on it for more
than a second. Eventually, it'll run so hot that the contacts will
weld together.
#87
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message news:6P2dnTA3ia0dGZrYnZ2dnUVZ_omdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Burt wrote:
> > It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
>
> it's watts you want to look out for. watts = volts x amps. if the
> voltage drops across a p-n junction, and it does, about 0.6V, at 30A,
> that's 18W you're wasting [and heat you have to dissipate]. relays, for
> all their other faults, don't have that kind of problem.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diodes
In applications where zero voltage drop is important there are already
ways to do this by selecting the appropriate transistor. A small voltage
drop of (.2V or .6V) isn't enough to slow down the fuel pump.
> > Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
> > mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
> > arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
>
> agreed, but they're not always the best solution. using silicon
> transistors on a 12V system is going to step down your voltage 5% each
> time it encounters a junction. that makes relays look attractive from
> an efficiency viewpoint.
The relays used in the main relays can cost more and will generate
heat. So much heat that you can't put your fingers on it for more
than a second. Eventually, it'll run so hot that the contacts will
weld together.
> Burt wrote:
> > It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
>
> it's watts you want to look out for. watts = volts x amps. if the
> voltage drops across a p-n junction, and it does, about 0.6V, at 30A,
> that's 18W you're wasting [and heat you have to dissipate]. relays, for
> all their other faults, don't have that kind of problem.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diodes
In applications where zero voltage drop is important there are already
ways to do this by selecting the appropriate transistor. A small voltage
drop of (.2V or .6V) isn't enough to slow down the fuel pump.
> > Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
> > mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
> > arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
>
> agreed, but they're not always the best solution. using silicon
> transistors on a 12V system is going to step down your voltage 5% each
> time it encounters a junction. that makes relays look attractive from
> an efficiency viewpoint.
The relays used in the main relays can cost more and will generate
heat. So much heat that you can't put your fingers on it for more
than a second. Eventually, it'll run so hot that the contacts will
weld together.
#88
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: main relay vs ignition switch while driving
"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message news:6P2dnTA3ia0dGZrYnZ2dnUVZ_omdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Burt wrote:
> > It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
>
> it's watts you want to look out for. watts = volts x amps. if the
> voltage drops across a p-n junction, and it does, about 0.6V, at 30A,
> that's 18W you're wasting [and heat you have to dissipate]. relays, for
> all their other faults, don't have that kind of problem.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diodes
In applications where zero voltage drop is important there are already
ways to do this by selecting the appropriate transistor. A small voltage
drop of (.2V or .6V) isn't enough to slow down the fuel pump.
> > Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
> > mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
> > arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
>
> agreed, but they're not always the best solution. using silicon
> transistors on a 12V system is going to step down your voltage 5% each
> time it encounters a junction. that makes relays look attractive from
> an efficiency viewpoint.
The relays used in the main relays can cost more and will generate
heat. So much heat that you can't put your fingers on it for more
than a second. Eventually, it'll run so hot that the contacts will
weld together.
> Burt wrote:
> > It's the current you want not the voltage. Transistors are proven.
>
> it's watts you want to look out for. watts = volts x amps. if the
> voltage drops across a p-n junction, and it does, about 0.6V, at 30A,
> that's 18W you're wasting [and heat you have to dissipate]. relays, for
> all their other faults, don't have that kind of problem.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diodes
In applications where zero voltage drop is important there are already
ways to do this by selecting the appropriate transistor. A small voltage
drop of (.2V or .6V) isn't enough to slow down the fuel pump.
> > Common, solid state devices have high marks for reliability than
> > mechanical relays. A relay will have moving part that can produce
> > arcing. Also, any spikes can be quashed by a shunt diode.
>
> agreed, but they're not always the best solution. using silicon
> transistors on a 12V system is going to step down your voltage 5% each
> time it encounters a junction. that makes relays look attractive from
> an efficiency viewpoint.
The relays used in the main relays can cost more and will generate
heat. So much heat that you can't put your fingers on it for more
than a second. Eventually, it'll run so hot that the contacts will
weld together.
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