jim beam wrote:

> if you want a car that can be tweaked and really handle on the curves,
> get a post 88, pre-2000 civic, a post 88 crx, post 89 integra or a
> prelude. the 06 si has a nice motor, but that's about it. seriously,
> if you sell that car, you'll have money to spare for a good base car
> from the above, /and/ a motor like this:
>
> http://www.theoldone.com/articles/La...rrys_Civic.htm

Thanks for clearing up some of those questions. As for buying an older
car, it's out of the question for me. I don't have the money/know-how
for swaps and total modification, nor do I want to start with a used
chassis. I bought the '06 Si for its styling too, not just for the K20.

I perused through that link (too long for me to read tonight), and I
noticed from the pictures you used an aftermarket closed-jacket block.
Hypothetically, if I were to supercharge my K20, would I *need*
aftermarket pistons/conrods/block? I hear Honda crankshafts are rock
solid, and don't need to be upgraded.

I'm just wondering. I don't plan on supercharging, especially with
11.1:1 compression.

 

"televascular" <televascular@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1156991839.326753.138110@e3g2000cwe.googlegro ups.com...

While this car is not being prepped for autocross, I live in an area
with long, curvaceous roads with above-average speed limits. I enjoy
driving my cars fast and hard, somewhat dangling on the border of
recklessness.

I understand that a car with understeer is more predictable and
intuitive than a car with oversteer/neutral steering capability, which
is why most production cars understeer by default. However, I'd like to
achieve neutral-ness and then force myself to adapt, as an experiment
of my driving technique/vehicle capability.

******************

Tele,

As a former Lotus Europa driver I can't let this go without a warning from
my own experience. Neutral steering and hard driving are a fractious
combination. Twice I found myself pointing the wrong way in curves with
absolutely no warning; I didn't even have my foot in the accelerator very
much. At least oversteering cars give some change in feel before coming
around; a neutral steering car puts Newton in the driver's seat very
suddenly indeed. All four wheels lose traction simultaneously and it makes
not the slightest difference if you try to steer out. You may as well let go
of the wheel because it does exactly nothing when you lose traction on all
four.

The Europa is a rear mid-engine design. I understand FWD is less
controllable at the limit if the suspension is set for neutral steering,
since there is a "dead man's corner" in the throttle response where either
increasing or reducing throttle will cause loss of control. I read a book
about sports car suspension in my enthusiast days, and it mentioned a FWD
racing car (Porsche?). Only two people ever agreed to drive it a second
time - one was reputed to be able to drive anything, and the other was a
motorcycle racer who thought all race cars handled like that.

Just sayin'

Mike

 

"televascular" <televascular@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1156991839.326753.138110@e3g2000cwe.googlegro ups.com...

While this car is not being prepped for autocross, I live in an area
with long, curvaceous roads with above-average speed limits. I enjoy
driving my cars fast and hard, somewhat dangling on the border of
recklessness.

I understand that a car with understeer is more predictable and
intuitive than a car with oversteer/neutral steering capability, which
is why most production cars understeer by default. However, I'd like to
achieve neutral-ness and then force myself to adapt, as an experiment
of my driving technique/vehicle capability.

******************

Tele,

As a former Lotus Europa driver I can't let this go without a warning from
my own experience. Neutral steering and hard driving are a fractious
combination. Twice I found myself pointing the wrong way in curves with
absolutely no warning; I didn't even have my foot in the accelerator very
much. At least oversteering cars give some change in feel before coming
around; a neutral steering car puts Newton in the driver's seat very
suddenly indeed. All four wheels lose traction simultaneously and it makes
not the slightest difference if you try to steer out. You may as well let go
of the wheel because it does exactly nothing when you lose traction on all
four.

The Europa is a rear mid-engine design. I understand FWD is less
controllable at the limit if the suspension is set for neutral steering,
since there is a "dead man's corner" in the throttle response where either
increasing or reducing throttle will cause loss of control. I read a book
about sports car suspension in my enthusiast days, and it mentioned a FWD
racing car (Porsche?). Only two people ever agreed to drive it a second
time - one was reputed to be able to drive anything, and the other was a
motorcycle racer who thought all race cars handled like that.

Just sayin'

Mike

 

"televascular" <televascular@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1156991839.326753.138110@e3g2000cwe.googlegro ups.com...

While this car is not being prepped for autocross, I live in an area
with long, curvaceous roads with above-average speed limits. I enjoy
driving my cars fast and hard, somewhat dangling on the border of
recklessness.

I understand that a car with understeer is more predictable and
intuitive than a car with oversteer/neutral steering capability, which
is why most production cars understeer by default. However, I'd like to
achieve neutral-ness and then force myself to adapt, as an experiment
of my driving technique/vehicle capability.

******************

Tele,

As a former Lotus Europa driver I can't let this go without a warning from
my own experience. Neutral steering and hard driving are a fractious
combination. Twice I found myself pointing the wrong way in curves with
absolutely no warning; I didn't even have my foot in the accelerator very
much. At least oversteering cars give some change in feel before coming
around; a neutral steering car puts Newton in the driver's seat very
suddenly indeed. All four wheels lose traction simultaneously and it makes
not the slightest difference if you try to steer out. You may as well let go
of the wheel because it does exactly nothing when you lose traction on all
four.

The Europa is a rear mid-engine design. I understand FWD is less
controllable at the limit if the suspension is set for neutral steering,
since there is a "dead man's corner" in the throttle response where either
increasing or reducing throttle will cause loss of control. I read a book
about sports car suspension in my enthusiast days, and it mentioned a FWD
racing car (Porsche?). Only two people ever agreed to drive it a second
time - one was reputed to be able to drive anything, and the other was a
motorcycle racer who thought all race cars handled like that.

Just sayin'

Mike

 

televascular wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> if you want a car that can be tweaked and really handle on the curves,
>> get a post 88, pre-2000 civic, a post 88 crx, post 89 integra or a
>> prelude. the 06 si has a nice motor, but that's about it. seriously,
>> if you sell that car, you'll have money to spare for a good base car
>> from the above, /and/ a motor like this:
>>
>> http://www.theoldone.com/articles/La...rrys_Civic.htm
>
> Thanks for clearing up some of those questions. As for buying an older
> car, it's out of the question for me. I don't have the money/know-how
> for swaps and total modification, nor do I want to start with a used
> chassis. I bought the '06 Si for its styling too, not just for the K20.

with respect, that means you're not serious. if you were, you'd take
the money you have into the si back out, and put less than half of that
money back into a vehicle that actually has the potential you "say" you
want.

>
> I perused through that link (too long for me to read tonight), and I
> noticed from the pictures you used an aftermarket closed-jacket block.
> Hypothetically, if I were to supercharge my K20, would I *need*
> aftermarket pistons/conrods/block? I hear Honda crankshafts are rock
> solid, and don't need to be upgraded.
>
> I'm just wondering. I don't plan on supercharging, especially with
> 11.1:1 compression.
>

don't ask me, ask larry widmer. that's not my car.

 

televascular wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> if you want a car that can be tweaked and really handle on the curves,
>> get a post 88, pre-2000 civic, a post 88 crx, post 89 integra or a
>> prelude. the 06 si has a nice motor, but that's about it. seriously,
>> if you sell that car, you'll have money to spare for a good base car
>> from the above, /and/ a motor like this:
>>
>> http://www.theoldone.com/articles/La...rrys_Civic.htm
>
> Thanks for clearing up some of those questions. As for buying an older
> car, it's out of the question for me. I don't have the money/know-how
> for swaps and total modification, nor do I want to start with a used
> chassis. I bought the '06 Si for its styling too, not just for the K20.

with respect, that means you're not serious. if you were, you'd take
the money you have into the si back out, and put less than half of that
money back into a vehicle that actually has the potential you "say" you
want.

>
> I perused through that link (too long for me to read tonight), and I
> noticed from the pictures you used an aftermarket closed-jacket block.
> Hypothetically, if I were to supercharge my K20, would I *need*
> aftermarket pistons/conrods/block? I hear Honda crankshafts are rock
> solid, and don't need to be upgraded.
>
> I'm just wondering. I don't plan on supercharging, especially with
> 11.1:1 compression.
>

don't ask me, ask larry widmer. that's not my car.

 

televascular wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> if you want a car that can be tweaked and really handle on the curves,
>> get a post 88, pre-2000 civic, a post 88 crx, post 89 integra or a
>> prelude. the 06 si has a nice motor, but that's about it. seriously,
>> if you sell that car, you'll have money to spare for a good base car
>> from the above, /and/ a motor like this:
>>
>> http://www.theoldone.com/articles/La...rrys_Civic.htm
>
> Thanks for clearing up some of those questions. As for buying an older
> car, it's out of the question for me. I don't have the money/know-how
> for swaps and total modification, nor do I want to start with a used
> chassis. I bought the '06 Si for its styling too, not just for the K20.

with respect, that means you're not serious. if you were, you'd take
the money you have into the si back out, and put less than half of that
money back into a vehicle that actually has the potential you "say" you
want.

>
> I perused through that link (too long for me to read tonight), and I
> noticed from the pictures you used an aftermarket closed-jacket block.
> Hypothetically, if I were to supercharge my K20, would I *need*
> aftermarket pistons/conrods/block? I hear Honda crankshafts are rock
> solid, and don't need to be upgraded.
>
> I'm just wondering. I don't plan on supercharging, especially with
> 11.1:1 compression.
>

don't ask me, ask larry widmer. that's not my car.

 

Mike,

All this input is forcing me to reconsider the modifications I have
done and had planned on doing. A nice RWD roadster would be nice
*cough* S2000 *cough* but, alas, I am bound by practicality and a
budget. I imagine oversteer would be hard to get used to after having
driven FWD all my life, but understeer is a wicked mistress. It's easy
enough to control (by letting off the throttle), but it slows me down
when I want to cut through a corner.

You've shown me how hellish neutral cars can be at the limit. Losing
grip on all four wheels at once seems frightful, but since traction is
divided equally on all four wheels, isn't the threshold for slippage
higher than on an unbalanced vehicle? In other words, in two identical
FF cars where one is set for moderate understeer and the other is
neutral, will the understeering car lose traction first, assuming both
cars are subjected to identical road conditions/lateral Gs?

I've often read that neutral steering is ideal for professional
drivers, and I'm struggling to understand how that correlates with my
limited skill and the limits of FWD.

 

Mike,

All this input is forcing me to reconsider the modifications I have
done and had planned on doing. A nice RWD roadster would be nice
*cough* S2000 *cough* but, alas, I am bound by practicality and a
budget. I imagine oversteer would be hard to get used to after having
driven FWD all my life, but understeer is a wicked mistress. It's easy
enough to control (by letting off the throttle), but it slows me down
when I want to cut through a corner.

You've shown me how hellish neutral cars can be at the limit. Losing
grip on all four wheels at once seems frightful, but since traction is
divided equally on all four wheels, isn't the threshold for slippage
higher than on an unbalanced vehicle? In other words, in two identical
FF cars where one is set for moderate understeer and the other is
neutral, will the understeering car lose traction first, assuming both
cars are subjected to identical road conditions/lateral Gs?

I've often read that neutral steering is ideal for professional
drivers, and I'm struggling to understand how that correlates with my
limited skill and the limits of FWD.

 

Mike,

All this input is forcing me to reconsider the modifications I have
done and had planned on doing. A nice RWD roadster would be nice
*cough* S2000 *cough* but, alas, I am bound by practicality and a
budget. I imagine oversteer would be hard to get used to after having
driven FWD all my life, but understeer is a wicked mistress. It's easy
enough to control (by letting off the throttle), but it slows me down
when I want to cut through a corner.

You've shown me how hellish neutral cars can be at the limit. Losing
grip on all four wheels at once seems frightful, but since traction is
divided equally on all four wheels, isn't the threshold for slippage
higher than on an unbalanced vehicle? In other words, in two identical
FF cars where one is set for moderate understeer and the other is
neutral, will the understeering car lose traction first, assuming both
cars are subjected to identical road conditions/lateral Gs?

I've often read that neutral steering is ideal for professional
drivers, and I'm struggling to understand how that correlates with my
limited skill and the limits of FWD.

 

jim beam wrote:
>
> with respect, that means you're not serious. if you were, you'd take
> the money you have into the si back out, and put less than half of that
> money back into a vehicle that actually has the potential you "say" you
> want.


jim beam,

I'm not a serious tuner, no. I bought the Si for a combination of
style, performance, and practicality. But mostly because it's a Honda
and it's a K20. I'm not trying to improve slalom times, only to refine
my daily driving experience.

 

jim beam wrote:
>
> with respect, that means you're not serious. if you were, you'd take
> the money you have into the si back out, and put less than half of that
> money back into a vehicle that actually has the potential you "say" you
> want.


jim beam,

I'm not a serious tuner, no. I bought the Si for a combination of
style, performance, and practicality. But mostly because it's a Honda
and it's a K20. I'm not trying to improve slalom times, only to refine
my daily driving experience.

 

jim beam wrote:
>
> with respect, that means you're not serious. if you were, you'd take
> the money you have into the si back out, and put less than half of that
> money back into a vehicle that actually has the potential you "say" you
> want.


jim beam,

I'm not a serious tuner, no. I bought the Si for a combination of
style, performance, and practicality. But mostly because it's a Honda
and it's a K20. I'm not trying to improve slalom times, only to refine
my daily driving experience.

 

"televascular" <televascular@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1157045965.876430.48750@m73g2000cwd.googlegro ups.com...
> Mike,
>
> All this input is forcing me to reconsider the modifications I have
> done and had planned on doing. A nice RWD roadster would be nice
> *cough* S2000 *cough* but, alas, I am bound by practicality and a
> budget. I imagine oversteer would be hard to get used to after having
> driven FWD all my life, but understeer is a wicked mistress. It's easy
> enough to control (by letting off the throttle), but it slows me down
> when I want to cut through a corner.
>
> You've shown me how hellish neutral cars can be at the limit. Losing
> grip on all four wheels at once seems frightful, but since traction is
> divided equally on all four wheels, isn't the threshold for slippage
> higher than on an unbalanced vehicle? In other words, in two identical
> FF cars where one is set for moderate understeer and the other is
> neutral, will the understeering car lose traction first, assuming both
> cars are subjected to identical road conditions/lateral Gs?
>
> I've often read that neutral steering is ideal for professional
> drivers, and I'm struggling to understand how that correlates with my
> limited skill and the limits of FWD.
>
The threshold is undoubtedly higher. The trick is that the edge is there
somewhere and it's a doozy. Truly expert drivers will beat me every time and
must have a better idea of where the limit is, but I wonder if they prefer
neutral steering when not competing. It is loads of fun under moderate
stress; the Lotus tires never squealed but would sing metallically in high
speed curves. At that point I always eased off, since I knew the edge was
somewhere near. The times I lost it were at under 30 mph with nobody ahead
of me or behind me, while the singing was more of a 50 mph + thing.

BTW, the rear wheels of the Europa have a large fixed camber, probably -10
degrees or more. Not sure just what effect that had.

Mike

 

"televascular" <televascular@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1157045965.876430.48750@m73g2000cwd.googlegro ups.com...
> Mike,
>
> All this input is forcing me to reconsider the modifications I have
> done and had planned on doing. A nice RWD roadster would be nice
> *cough* S2000 *cough* but, alas, I am bound by practicality and a
> budget. I imagine oversteer would be hard to get used to after having
> driven FWD all my life, but understeer is a wicked mistress. It's easy
> enough to control (by letting off the throttle), but it slows me down
> when I want to cut through a corner.
>
> You've shown me how hellish neutral cars can be at the limit. Losing
> grip on all four wheels at once seems frightful, but since traction is
> divided equally on all four wheels, isn't the threshold for slippage
> higher than on an unbalanced vehicle? In other words, in two identical
> FF cars where one is set for moderate understeer and the other is
> neutral, will the understeering car lose traction first, assuming both
> cars are subjected to identical road conditions/lateral Gs?
>
> I've often read that neutral steering is ideal for professional
> drivers, and I'm struggling to understand how that correlates with my
> limited skill and the limits of FWD.
>
The threshold is undoubtedly higher. The trick is that the edge is there
somewhere and it's a doozy. Truly expert drivers will beat me every time and
must have a better idea of where the limit is, but I wonder if they prefer
neutral steering when not competing. It is loads of fun under moderate
stress; the Lotus tires never squealed but would sing metallically in high
speed curves. At that point I always eased off, since I knew the edge was
somewhere near. The times I lost it were at under 30 mph with nobody ahead
of me or behind me, while the singing was more of a 50 mph + thing.

BTW, the rear wheels of the Europa have a large fixed camber, probably -10
degrees or more. Not sure just what effect that had.

Mike