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Re: Need Alignment After Camber Adjustment?
"televascular" <televascular@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1157045965.876430.48750@m73g2000cwd.googlegro ups.com... > Mike, > > All this input is forcing me to reconsider the modifications I have > done and had planned on doing. A nice RWD roadster would be nice > *cough* S2000 *cough* but, alas, I am bound by practicality and a > budget. I imagine oversteer would be hard to get used to after having > driven FWD all my life, but understeer is a wicked mistress. It's easy > enough to control (by letting off the throttle), but it slows me down > when I want to cut through a corner. > > You've shown me how hellish neutral cars can be at the limit. Losing > grip on all four wheels at once seems frightful, but since traction is > divided equally on all four wheels, isn't the threshold for slippage > higher than on an unbalanced vehicle? In other words, in two identical > FF cars where one is set for moderate understeer and the other is > neutral, will the understeering car lose traction first, assuming both > cars are subjected to identical road conditions/lateral Gs? > > I've often read that neutral steering is ideal for professional > drivers, and I'm struggling to understand how that correlates with my > limited skill and the limits of FWD. > The threshold is undoubtedly higher. The trick is that the edge is there somewhere and it's a doozy. Truly expert drivers will beat me every time and must have a better idea of where the limit is, but I wonder if they prefer neutral steering when not competing. It is loads of fun under moderate stress; the Lotus tires never squealed but would sing metallically in high speed curves. At that point I always eased off, since I knew the edge was somewhere near. The times I lost it were at under 30 mph with nobody ahead of me or behind me, while the singing was more of a 50 mph + thing. BTW, the rear wheels of the Europa have a large fixed camber, probably -10 degrees or more. Not sure just what effect that had. Mike |
Re: Need Alignment After Camber Adjustment?
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
news:NuGdndHbpOrtR2vZnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@sedona.net: > > The Europa is a rear mid-engine design. I understand FWD is less > controllable at the limit if the suspension is set for neutral > steering, Most (if not all) FWD Hondas are set up with zero toe. The steering IS neutral. The difference is at the REAR. Positive toe back there along with negative camber provide the propensity to understeer. -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Need Alignment After Camber Adjustment?
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
news:NuGdndHbpOrtR2vZnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@sedona.net: > > The Europa is a rear mid-engine design. I understand FWD is less > controllable at the limit if the suspension is set for neutral > steering, Most (if not all) FWD Hondas are set up with zero toe. The steering IS neutral. The difference is at the REAR. Positive toe back there along with negative camber provide the propensity to understeer. -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Need Alignment After Camber Adjustment?
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
news:NuGdndHbpOrtR2vZnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@sedona.net: > > The Europa is a rear mid-engine design. I understand FWD is less > controllable at the limit if the suspension is set for neutral > steering, Most (if not all) FWD Hondas are set up with zero toe. The steering IS neutral. The difference is at the REAR. Positive toe back there along with negative camber provide the propensity to understeer. -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Need Alignment After Camber Adjustment?
televascular wrote:
> jim beam wrote: >> with respect, that means you're not serious. if you were, you'd take >> the money you have into the si back out, and put less than half of that >> money back into a vehicle that actually has the potential you "say" you >> want. > > > jim beam, > > I'm not a serious tuner, no. I bought the Si for a combination of > style, performance, and practicality. But mostly because it's a Honda > and it's a K20. I'm not trying to improve slalom times, only to refine > my daily driving experience. > then put bigger rubber on it and stop bleating about understeer! fact is, any of the hondas previously mentioned can double as daily drivers /and/ serious performers. the only thing missing from your equation is "style" and that's highly subjective. no one that's being passed by a low flying honda on the outside curve of a negative camber is in a position to worry about how your car looks from any direction other than the rear. |
Re: Need Alignment After Camber Adjustment?
televascular wrote:
> jim beam wrote: >> with respect, that means you're not serious. if you were, you'd take >> the money you have into the si back out, and put less than half of that >> money back into a vehicle that actually has the potential you "say" you >> want. > > > jim beam, > > I'm not a serious tuner, no. I bought the Si for a combination of > style, performance, and practicality. But mostly because it's a Honda > and it's a K20. I'm not trying to improve slalom times, only to refine > my daily driving experience. > then put bigger rubber on it and stop bleating about understeer! fact is, any of the hondas previously mentioned can double as daily drivers /and/ serious performers. the only thing missing from your equation is "style" and that's highly subjective. no one that's being passed by a low flying honda on the outside curve of a negative camber is in a position to worry about how your car looks from any direction other than the rear. |
Re: Need Alignment After Camber Adjustment?
televascular wrote:
> jim beam wrote: >> with respect, that means you're not serious. if you were, you'd take >> the money you have into the si back out, and put less than half of that >> money back into a vehicle that actually has the potential you "say" you >> want. > > > jim beam, > > I'm not a serious tuner, no. I bought the Si for a combination of > style, performance, and practicality. But mostly because it's a Honda > and it's a K20. I'm not trying to improve slalom times, only to refine > my daily driving experience. > then put bigger rubber on it and stop bleating about understeer! fact is, any of the hondas previously mentioned can double as daily drivers /and/ serious performers. the only thing missing from your equation is "style" and that's highly subjective. no one that's being passed by a low flying honda on the outside curve of a negative camber is in a position to worry about how your car looks from any direction other than the rear. |
Re: Need Alignment After Camber Adjustment?
"TeGGeRï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï ¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½" wrote:
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in > news:NuGdndHbpOrtR2vZnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@sedona.net: > > >> The Europa is a rear mid-engine design. I understand FWD is less >> controllable at the limit if the suspension is set for neutral >> steering, > > > > Most (if not all) FWD Hondas are set up with zero toe. The steering IS > neutral. The difference is at the REAR. Positive toe back there along with > negative camber provide the propensity to understeer. > the front toe may be neutral, but that's not what causes under-steer - the same geometry in a rear engine vehicle will over-steer. and the rear toe provides stability at speed. depending on configuration [like that taken advantage of in 4ws preludes] it can improve cornering significantly. under-steer is partly a function of weight distribution and traction - it tends to decrease as more power is applied. fwd vehicles have /all/ their significant weight on the steering wheels - as you try to turn, inertia of the heaviest part of the vehicle wants to continue in a straight line. |
Re: Need Alignment After Camber Adjustment?
"TeGGeRï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï ¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½" wrote:
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in > news:NuGdndHbpOrtR2vZnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@sedona.net: > > >> The Europa is a rear mid-engine design. I understand FWD is less >> controllable at the limit if the suspension is set for neutral >> steering, > > > > Most (if not all) FWD Hondas are set up with zero toe. The steering IS > neutral. The difference is at the REAR. Positive toe back there along with > negative camber provide the propensity to understeer. > the front toe may be neutral, but that's not what causes under-steer - the same geometry in a rear engine vehicle will over-steer. and the rear toe provides stability at speed. depending on configuration [like that taken advantage of in 4ws preludes] it can improve cornering significantly. under-steer is partly a function of weight distribution and traction - it tends to decrease as more power is applied. fwd vehicles have /all/ their significant weight on the steering wheels - as you try to turn, inertia of the heaviest part of the vehicle wants to continue in a straight line. |
Re: Need Alignment After Camber Adjustment?
"TeGGeRï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï ¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½" wrote:
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in > news:NuGdndHbpOrtR2vZnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@sedona.net: > > >> The Europa is a rear mid-engine design. I understand FWD is less >> controllable at the limit if the suspension is set for neutral >> steering, > > > > Most (if not all) FWD Hondas are set up with zero toe. The steering IS > neutral. The difference is at the REAR. Positive toe back there along with > negative camber provide the propensity to understeer. > the front toe may be neutral, but that's not what causes under-steer - the same geometry in a rear engine vehicle will over-steer. and the rear toe provides stability at speed. depending on configuration [like that taken advantage of in 4ws preludes] it can improve cornering significantly. under-steer is partly a function of weight distribution and traction - it tends to decrease as more power is applied. fwd vehicles have /all/ their significant weight on the steering wheels - as you try to turn, inertia of the heaviest part of the vehicle wants to continue in a straight line. |
Re: Need Alignment After Camber Adjustment?
On 31 Aug 2006 10:46:36 -0700, televascular wrote:
> jim beam wrote: >> >> with respect, that means you're not serious. if you were, you'd take >> the money you have into the si back out, and put less than half of that >> money back into a vehicle that actually has the potential you "say" you >> want. > > > jim beam, > > I'm not a serious tuner, no. I bought the Si for a combination of > style, performance, and practicality. But mostly because it's a Honda > and it's a K20. I'm not trying to improve slalom times, only to refine > my daily driving experience. But the only thing I would expect would improve the Si for daily driving would be increased Torque. AAMOF, the understeer in the Si is easily corrected in corners by hitting the gas, not the brake. Odd as it may sound, I go through some pretty drastic on-ramps at 2AM at 60 MPH, accelerating when the understeer presents itself. This was also the opinion of almost every reviewer whose work I read before buying the car. -- Joseph M. LaVigne jlavigne@hits-buffalo.com http://www.thelavignefamily.us/MyPipePages/ - 9/1/2006 2:45:08 AM Tobacconist Brick and Mortar Database: http://bam.tobaccocellar.org/ The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them. -- Albert Einstein |
Re: Need Alignment After Camber Adjustment?
On 31 Aug 2006 10:46:36 -0700, televascular wrote:
> jim beam wrote: >> >> with respect, that means you're not serious. if you were, you'd take >> the money you have into the si back out, and put less than half of that >> money back into a vehicle that actually has the potential you "say" you >> want. > > > jim beam, > > I'm not a serious tuner, no. I bought the Si for a combination of > style, performance, and practicality. But mostly because it's a Honda > and it's a K20. I'm not trying to improve slalom times, only to refine > my daily driving experience. But the only thing I would expect would improve the Si for daily driving would be increased Torque. AAMOF, the understeer in the Si is easily corrected in corners by hitting the gas, not the brake. Odd as it may sound, I go through some pretty drastic on-ramps at 2AM at 60 MPH, accelerating when the understeer presents itself. This was also the opinion of almost every reviewer whose work I read before buying the car. -- Joseph M. LaVigne jlavigne@hits-buffalo.com http://www.thelavignefamily.us/MyPipePages/ - 9/1/2006 2:45:08 AM Tobacconist Brick and Mortar Database: http://bam.tobaccocellar.org/ The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them. -- Albert Einstein |
Re: Need Alignment After Camber Adjustment?
On 31 Aug 2006 10:46:36 -0700, televascular wrote:
> jim beam wrote: >> >> with respect, that means you're not serious. if you were, you'd take >> the money you have into the si back out, and put less than half of that >> money back into a vehicle that actually has the potential you "say" you >> want. > > > jim beam, > > I'm not a serious tuner, no. I bought the Si for a combination of > style, performance, and practicality. But mostly because it's a Honda > and it's a K20. I'm not trying to improve slalom times, only to refine > my daily driving experience. But the only thing I would expect would improve the Si for daily driving would be increased Torque. AAMOF, the understeer in the Si is easily corrected in corners by hitting the gas, not the brake. Odd as it may sound, I go through some pretty drastic on-ramps at 2AM at 60 MPH, accelerating when the understeer presents itself. This was also the opinion of almost every reviewer whose work I read before buying the car. -- Joseph M. LaVigne jlavigne@hits-buffalo.com http://www.thelavignefamily.us/MyPipePages/ - 9/1/2006 2:45:08 AM Tobacconist Brick and Mortar Database: http://bam.tobaccocellar.org/ The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them. -- Albert Einstein |
Re: Need Alignment After Camber Adjustment?
Joe LaVigne wrote:
> On 31 Aug 2006 10:46:36 -0700, televascular wrote: > >> jim beam wrote: >>> with respect, that means you're not serious. if you were, you'd take >>> the money you have into the si back out, and put less than half of that >>> money back into a vehicle that actually has the potential you "say" you >>> want. >> >> jim beam, >> >> I'm not a serious tuner, no. I bought the Si for a combination of >> style, performance, and practicality. But mostly because it's a Honda >> and it's a K20. I'm not trying to improve slalom times, only to refine >> my daily driving experience. > > But the only thing I would expect would improve the Si for daily driving > would be increased Torque. > > AAMOF, the understeer in the Si is easily corrected in corners by hitting > the gas, not the brake. Odd as it may sound, I go through some pretty > drastic on-ramps at 2AM at 60 MPH, accelerating when the understeer > presents itself. absolutely. anyone getting freaked by understeer on such a vehicle is inexperienced and needs to learn how to handle it properly: 1. adjust speed before the curve, 2. power through. > > This was also the opinion of almost every reviewer whose work I read before > buying the car. > |
Re: Need Alignment After Camber Adjustment?
Joe LaVigne wrote:
> On 31 Aug 2006 10:46:36 -0700, televascular wrote: > >> jim beam wrote: >>> with respect, that means you're not serious. if you were, you'd take >>> the money you have into the si back out, and put less than half of that >>> money back into a vehicle that actually has the potential you "say" you >>> want. >> >> jim beam, >> >> I'm not a serious tuner, no. I bought the Si for a combination of >> style, performance, and practicality. But mostly because it's a Honda >> and it's a K20. I'm not trying to improve slalom times, only to refine >> my daily driving experience. > > But the only thing I would expect would improve the Si for daily driving > would be increased Torque. > > AAMOF, the understeer in the Si is easily corrected in corners by hitting > the gas, not the brake. Odd as it may sound, I go through some pretty > drastic on-ramps at 2AM at 60 MPH, accelerating when the understeer > presents itself. absolutely. anyone getting freaked by understeer on such a vehicle is inexperienced and needs to learn how to handle it properly: 1. adjust speed before the curve, 2. power through. > > This was also the opinion of almost every reviewer whose work I read before > buying the car. > |
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