Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

"dgk" <dgk@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:vclf44d99iqbindik9i3fanbclnblnlmmt@4ax.com...

> >The solution is to let the price continue to be determined by supply
> >and demand. If the price gets so high that people start actually
> >curbing their use of fuel, the price will drop. It has probably
> >already hit that point, and the price will likely settle around $3.75
> >per gallon for regular unleaded.
> >
>
> One large factor in rising gas prices is the falling dollar. It's
> falling because we're spending a $trillion on a war to take over Iraq.

If that were true the great problem would have started a few years ago, and
not right after
the Dems won the congress in 2006, claiming of all things, to lower gas
prices....

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

"still just me" <wheeledBobNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c09g44dlgrj7jl5dvm3m99dhs34nd4sjrf@4ax.com...
> On 05 Jun 2008 12:28:59 GMT, Klark Kent <stewart@copeland.com`> wrote:
>
> >> And of course it's the government's job to regulate the actions of
> >> people. That's why we have a government.
> >
> >Thomas Jefferson on Line One. And he's pissed.
>
> He's been pissed since Bush started ignoring his duty to protect the
> Constitution = and in fact, directly violating it - around 2001.

Cite?

>

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

"still just me" <wheeledBobNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c09g44dlgrj7jl5dvm3m99dhs34nd4sjrf@4ax.com...
> On 05 Jun 2008 12:28:59 GMT, Klark Kent <stewart@copeland.com`> wrote:
>
>>> And of course it's the government's job to regulate the actions of
>>> people. That's why we have a government.
>>
>>Thomas Jefferson on Line One. And he's pissed.
>
> He's been pissed since Bush started ignoring his duty to protect the
> Constitution = and in fact, directly violating it - around 2001.
>
Nice German man describing Georgie's government:
Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm
want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come
back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war
neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is
understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine
the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along,
whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a
communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought
to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism
and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any
country. -Hermann Goering

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

Just Me (remove <nospam> to reply) wrote:
> Cheny is a wad, but he is right. Increasing demand does not lower
> the price.
>
> What we should do is raise the tax to cut wasteful consumption. Then
> offset the increase by giving a limited tax credit to family tax payers
> with under 100k net income (single filers 50k,) $0 credit for those
> over. That way we keep the tax of the backs of those that can least
> afford it and punish the Hummer drivers. This will spur growth of
> Hybrid and alternative fuels. You know damn well that if it hurts the
> rich that they will start doing something about it. Increase the tax
> monthly until they cry uncle.

Actually, we should raise the gas tax with an offsetting tax credit up
to a certain limit.

I would NOT limit the tax credit by income or filing status. You want to
get buy-in from the general public, and encourage them to buy smaller
vehicles, at least for commuting (keep the SUV or minivan for times when
it's really appropriate). $50K is still pretty low income.

Every licensed non-commercial driver with a vehicle registered in their
name gets the credit for one vehicle. Maybe a $5/gallon tax, with a
$5/gallon tax credit for 365 gallons a year, i.e. an $1825 tax credit.
Use less than 365 gallons a year and you're ahead of the game. Use more,
well it's up to you to commute solo in an SUV, or to drive the kids
around in a minivan, or to live 50 miles from work.

No tax credit for unlicensed drivers.
No tax credit for those that don't file income taxes.
Some sort of program for commercial vehicles to exempt them.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

Bill Putney wrote:
> Just Me (remove <nospam> to reply) wrote:
>
>> What we should do is raise the tax to cut wasteful consumption. Then
>> offset the increase by giving a limited tax credit to family tax
>> payers with under 100k net income (single filers 50k,) $0 credit for
>> those over. That way we keep the tax of the backs of those that can
>> least afford it and punish the Hummer drivers. This will spur growth
>> of Hybrid and alternative fuels. You know damn well that if it hurts
>> the rich that they will start doing something about it. Increase the
>> tax monthly until they cry uncle.
>
> You're forgetting/ignoring the serious overhead cost of employing people
> (within gubmint) to administer your system that does nothing but move
> money around.

It'd be less than you think. Most of the infrastructure is already in
place. The IRS already administers a variety of tax credits for various
social policies, and the government already collects the federal gas
tax. No new agencies are required. We're not talking about issuing
ration books here.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

"Bill Putney" <bptn@kinez.net> wrote
> Like most liberal schemes, there will be pretended
> "unintended consequences" and a net unavoidable loss to
> the economy and the quality of life. Liberalism always
> achieves the exact opposite of it's stated intent (better
> quality of life vs. degraded quality of life).

And you think this lunatic Bush has not degraded quality of
life with the costs of this insane war and letting banks and
Wall Street manipulate the mortgage and credit market so we
are in a serious recession, with the little people getting
thrown out of their homes and the big people seeing their
assets in financial stocks plummet? You think it's good
things were allowed to go hog wild?

Maybe when the little people have lost enough jobs and are
panicking to feed their kids, and so now they are tearing at
the gates of your suburban community and happy to knife you
as you walk down the street to support their families,
you'll get it.

A few liberal principles are precisely what ensures a
healthy labor force to keep the economy thriving, and all of
us, better off.

I'd like every idiot who supported Bush to get kicked out of
their house and go serve in Iraq for six months. This
includes the non-voters who go around complaining but do not
have the guts to admit putting Gore or Kerry in the White
House would have been much safer.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

still just me wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:43:46 -0500, Joe <joe@nospam.hits-buffalo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The oil companies have no responsibility to the customer other than to
>> provide the product at whatever price people are willing to pay for
>> it. The price at which they are able to sell all the oil they want
>> for the most amount of cash. This is good for the stockholders, and
>> therefore exactly what the executives should do.
>
> However, collusion for the purpose of monopoly is still illegal on the
> books of the US (although not enforced at all since January of 2000).
> Note the Enron case in CA and the current US investigation of such
> alleged actions. When "product at a price" moves into "manipulate the
> market" then there is an issue. Those same executives bear
> responsibility for that too.
>
> But, at the end of the day, some of us still believe in honesty,
> integrity, and doing the right thing for our customers our country,
> and our society - other (like you I have to guess) believe that greed
> is the guiding principle and model for our lives.

Umm - which previous administration was the same activity going on in?
And which one put a stop to it and prosecuted it. You're blaming the
Bush administration when that's the administration that blew the whistle
on it. The previous administration did nothing.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

SMS wrote:
> Bill Putney wrote:
>> Just Me (remove <nospam> to reply) wrote:
>>
>>> What we should do is raise the tax to cut wasteful consumption. Then
>>> offset the increase by giving a limited tax credit to family tax
>>> payers with under 100k net income (single filers 50k,) $0 credit for
>>> those over. That way we keep the tax of the backs of those that can
>>> least afford it and punish the Hummer drivers. This will spur growth
>>> of Hybrid and alternative fuels. You know damn well that if it hurts
>>> the rich that they will start doing something about it. Increase the
>>> tax monthly until they cry uncle.
>>
>> You're forgetting/ignoring the serious overhead cost of employing
>> people (within gubmint) to administer your system that does nothing
>> but move money around.
>
> It'd be less than you think. Most of the infrastructure is already in
> place. The IRS already administers a variety of tax credits for various
> social policies, and the government already collects the federal gas
> tax. No new agencies are required. We're not talking about issuing
> ration books here.

You kid yourself if you really believe that it would not take extra
bodies in the gov't to administer it.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

Elle wrote:
> "Bill Putney" <bptn@kinez.net> wrote
>> Like most liberal schemes, there will be pretended
>> "unintended consequences" and a net unavoidable loss to
>> the economy and the quality of life. Liberalism always
>> achieves the exact opposite of it's stated intent (better
>> quality of life vs. degraded quality of life).
>
> And you think this lunatic Bush has not degraded quality of
> life with the costs of this insane war and letting banks and
> Wall Street manipulate the mortgage and credit market so we
> are in a serious recession,

We disagree on the war, and Congress created the mortgage crisis by
incentivising (with both carrots and sticks) the lenders into lending
huge sums of money in violation of every sound business practice of
properly qualifying lenders. We're just seeing the chickens coming home
to roost on that one (again - achieving the exact opposite of the stated
intent).

with the little people getting
> thrown out of their homes and the big people seeing their
> assets in financial stocks plummet? You think it's good
> things were allowed to go hog wild?

Congress put into action programs to cause exactly that to happen in
violation of proven good business practices.

> Maybe when the little people have lost enough jobs and are
> panicking to feed their kids, and so now they are tearing at
> the gates of your suburban community and happy to knife you
> as you walk down the street to support their families,
> you'll get it.
>
> A few liberal principles are precisely what ensures a
> healthy labor force to keep the economy thriving, and all of
> us

What principles in particular would those be?

> I'd like every idiot who supported Bush to get kicked out of
> their house and go serve in Iraq for six months.

OK.

> This
> includes the non-voters who go around complaining but do not
> have the guts to admit putting Gore or Kerry in the White
> House would have been much safer.

That last part I definitely disagree with you on.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

Bill Putney wrote:

> You kid yourself if you really believe that it would not take extra
> bodies in the gov't to administer it.

It would probably require adding some treasury department personnel to
administer it, but it's not like creating a whole new government
department. The infrastructure is all in place. The overhead would be
minimal, just like it is when other tax incentives are added to the tax
code, or when tax rates change.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

Joe wrote:

> The solution is to let the price continue to be determined by supply
> and demand. If the price gets so high that people start actually
> curbing their use of fuel, the price will drop. It has probably
> already hit that point, and the price will likely settle around $3.75
> per gallon for regular unleaded.

This approach is extremely short-sighted.

Oil is needed for products other than just than gasoline and diesel
fuel. The supply and demand need to be managed carefully, as many
countries already do.

The actions of those not curbing their use of fuel, directly affect the
rest of us. These people need to be penalized.

> The oil companies have no responsibility to the customer other than to
> provide the product at whatever price people are willing to pay for
> it.

That's right. It's the government that needs to help set the pricing at
a level that is optimal for society as a whole.

The price at which they are able to sell all the oil they want
> for the most amount of cash. This is good for the stockholders, and
> therefore exactly what the executives should do.

The government is under no obligation to keep the taxes on fuel
artificially low in order to help the oil companies make more money, nor
are they required to institute policies that drive up the cost of oil.
This is what has happened under Bush, and it was not unintentional.

What the Obama administration should do:

1) Adjust the tax system on motor fuels to discourage consumption and
reward conservation

2) Raise CAFE standards significantly

3) Encourage the development of plug-in hybrids

4) Encourage the expansion of nuclear power for generating electricity

5) Work on the creation of high speed rail, powered by electricity,
powered by nuclear, to replace short hop air travel which is an
inefficient use of fossil fuel.


We just can't afford any more Republican presidents and their huge
deficits, lack of foreign policy expertise, and their ties to big oil.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

SMS wrote:
> Joe wrote:
>
>> The solution is to let the price continue to be determined by supply
>> and demand. If the price gets so high that people start actually
>> curbing their use of fuel, the price will drop. It has probably
>> already hit that point, and the price will likely settle around $3.75
>> per gallon for regular unleaded.
>
> This approach is extremely short-sighted.
>
> Oil is needed for products other than just than gasoline and diesel
> fuel. The supply and demand need to be managed carefully, as many
> countries already do.
>
> The actions of those not curbing their use of fuel, directly affect the
> rest of us. These people need to be penalized.

You mean like the people of the US, who use more fuel, per capita, than
just about any other country?

>> The oil companies have no responsibility to the customer other than to
>> provide the product at whatever price people are willing to pay for
>> it.
>
> That's right. It's the government that needs to help set the pricing at
> a level that is optimal for society as a whole.
>
> The price at which they are able to sell all the oil they want
>> for the most amount of cash. This is good for the stockholders, and
>> therefore exactly what the executives should do.
>
> The government is under no obligation to keep the taxes on fuel
> artificially low in order to help the oil companies make more money, nor
> are they required to institute policies that drive up the cost of oil.
> This is what has happened under Bush, and it was not unintentional.

Not to mention under Clinton, the first Bush, Reagan, Carter, Ford,
Nixon ....

> What the Obama administration should do:
>
> 1) Adjust the tax system on motor fuels to discourage consumption and
> reward conservation
>
> 2) Raise CAFE standards significantly
>
> 3) Encourage the development of plug-in hybrids
>
> 4) Encourage the expansion of nuclear power for generating electricity
>
> 5) Work on the creation of high speed rail, powered by electricity,
> powered by nuclear, to replace short hop air travel which is an
> inefficient use of fossil fuel.
>
>
> We just can't afford any more Republican presidents and their huge
> deficits, lack of foreign policy expertise, and their ties to big oil.

It's not just a problem with Republicans. It's a problem with Democrats.
And, Americans, in general, who do not demand that their Presidents,
Congress(wo)men and Senators are free from outside influences, like
money from oil company executives and other conflicts of interest, as well.

Over all, I agree with what you said about what the next President
should do. I would also love to see a system where there is a general
energy tax rebate and higher energy taxes. So, people can have a choice
between saving money and energy or wasting both.

Jeff

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

Some nice touches that might work well.

SMS wrote:
> Just Me (remove <nospam> to reply) wrote:
>> Cheny is a wad, but he is right. Increasing demand does not lower
>> the price.
>>
>> What we should do is raise the tax to cut wasteful consumption. Then
>> offset the increase by giving a limited tax credit to family tax
>> payers with under 100k net income (single filers 50k,) $0 credit for
>> those over. That way we keep the tax of the backs of those that can
>> least afford it and punish the Hummer drivers. This will spur growth
>> of Hybrid and alternative fuels. You know damn well that if it hurts
>> the rich that they will start doing something about it. Increase the
>> tax monthly until they cry uncle.
>
> Actually, we should raise the gas tax with an offsetting tax credit up
> to a certain limit.
>
> I would NOT limit the tax credit by income or filing status. You want to
> get buy-in from the general public, and encourage them to buy smaller
> vehicles, at least for commuting (keep the SUV or minivan for times when
> it's really appropriate). $50K is still pretty low income.
>
> Every licensed non-commercial driver with a vehicle registered in their
> name gets the credit for one vehicle. Maybe a $5/gallon tax, with a
> $5/gallon tax credit for 365 gallons a year, i.e. an $1825 tax credit.
> Use less than 365 gallons a year and you're ahead of the game. Use more,
> well it's up to you to commute solo in an SUV, or to drive the kids
> around in a minivan, or to live 50 miles from work.
>
> No tax credit for unlicensed drivers.
> No tax credit for those that don't file income taxes.
> Some sort of program for commercial vehicles to exempt them.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

On 2008-06-05, dgk <dgk@somewhere.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:43:46 -0500, Joe <joe@nospam.hits-buffalo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On 2008-06-04, Just Me (remove <nospam> to reply) <2000-nospam-cam@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> Cheny is a wad, but he is right. Increasing demand does not lower
>>> the price.
>>>
>>> What we should do is raise the tax to cut wasteful consumption. Then
>>> offset the increase by giving a limited tax credit to family tax payers
>>> with under 100k net income (single filers 50k,) $0 credit for those
>>> over. That way we keep the tax of the backs of those that can least
>>> afford it and punish the Hummer drivers. This will spur growth of
>>> Hybrid and alternative fuels. You know damn well that if it hurts the
>>> rich that they will start doing something about it. Increase the tax
>>> monthly until they cry uncle.
>>
>>The solution to any problem is NEVER more taxes. It is not the
>>government's job to regulate the actions of the people.
>>
>>The solution is to let the price continue to be determined by supply
>>and demand. If the price gets so high that people start actually
>>curbing their use of fuel, the price will drop. It has probably
>>already hit that point, and the price will likely settle around $3.75
>>per gallon for regular unleaded.
>>
>
> One large factor in rising gas prices is the falling dollar. It's
> falling because we're spending a $trillion on a war to take over Iraq.

That has nothing to do with the value of the dollar. Go back to
school and get a lesson on economics. The largest pressure on the
value of the dollar is the plummeting interest rate, resulting in the
flooding of the economy with new currency, which reduces the value of
the currency. Spending money on the industrial complex has never been
a burden to any economy, and has been used repeatedly in the past to
dig out of recession.

>
> And of course it's the government's job to regulate the actions of
> people. That's why we have a government. Otherwise we have a free for
> all.

No, it is the job of the government to preserve the freedom and
liberty of the people. The government is not your daddy, it is your
employee. I don't need a big brother. I need someone to do the
things that I cannot do on my own. Maintain the roads, protect the
borders, and preserve the freedom of myself and my fellow american.

>
> I don't mind tax and spend Democrats; that's the way government is
> supposed to operate. My problem is the borrow and spend Republicans.

If you think that's how government is supposed to operate, you belong
in a pen, just bahhhing along and eating your feed. You do not belong
in anything that was once called a great nation. You are an
abomination. You ARE the problem.


--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.autos.honda.]
On 2008-06-05, still just me <wheeledBobNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 05 Jun 2008 12:28:59 GMT, Klark Kent <stewart@copeland.com`> wrote:
>
>>> And of course it's the government's job to regulate the actions of
>>> people. That's why we have a government.
>>
>>Thomas Jefferson on Line One. And he's pissed.
>
> He's been pissed since Bush started ignoring his duty to protect the
> Constitution = and in fact, directly violating it - around 2001.
>

Bush isn't the first, or the worst, to wipe his ass with the
Constitution. The first BIG foray into ignoring it was probably FDR,
though it was done incrementally even before him...

Now they all consider the Constitution to be no more than a
challenge...


--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X