Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

Gib Bogle wrote:
> Joe wrote:
>> On 2008-06-04, Just Me (remove <nospam> to reply)
>> <2000-nospam-cam@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> Cheny is a wad, but he is right. Increasing demand does not
>>> lower the price.
>>>
>>> What we should do is raise the tax to cut wasteful consumption. Then
>>> offset the increase by giving a limited tax credit to family tax
>>> payers with under 100k net income (single filers 50k,) $0 credit for
>>> those over. That way we keep the tax of the backs of those that can
>>> least afford it and punish the Hummer drivers. This will spur growth
>>> of Hybrid and alternative fuels. You know damn well that if it hurts
>>> the rich that they will start doing something about it. Increase the
>>> tax monthly until they cry uncle.
>>
>> The solution to any problem is NEVER more taxes.
>
> A simple rule for simple-minded people.

In fact, tax policy is widely used to shape social policy.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

SMS wrote:

> larry moe 'n curly wrote:
>
> > I'd give the credit quarterly to every working adult under a certain
> > income level, the same dollar amount to each person, no matter how
> > much or little hydrocarbon fuel they consumed or even if they didn't
> > drive at all. That method would have the lowest bureaucratic
> > overhead, be the least prone to fraud, and offer the greatest
> > incentive to not waste energy. Government credits don't work well
> > when they're complex.
>
> It's too complex to do what you propose, and too revenue negative.

What I propose is even more simpler than what you propose, and how can
it be revenue-negative when it won't refund more than it takes in?

> How are you going to account for the different cost of living in different
> areas of the country?

I'm not, and why should I? After all, do the personal deduction on
income tax and the earned income credit vary according to local costs
of living?
>
> The federal gasoline tax and the tax credits are already in place. Just
> increase the gasoline tax, and then give the money back to those that
> are not wasteful, so it's no net loss to them. You don't need any big
> bureaucracy to manage it.
>
> You have to be careful when you change tax policy to avoid unintended
> consequences.

That's why I don't want the tax to be too high and result in too much
of a switch to undesirable alternatives, like alcohol, diesel, or
electricity, the last two being bad mostly because a quick switchover
could put them in short supply..

How does your gas tax/income tax refund plan avoid unintended
consequences?

> Ross Perot was a nut case, but the one thing he proposed that made sense
> was the increased gasoline tax.

That's true, and car makers have long preferred that over higher fuel
economy standards, but the country has been pathologically against all
taxes since the 1980s, even when lower taxes result in higher costs
(deficits, bad roads causing car damage and travel delays). Even
conservative George Will said the US was undertaxed.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

"Gib Bogle" <bogle@ihug.too.much.spam.co.nz> wrote
> Elle wrote:
>> "Bill Putney" <bptn@kinez.net> wrote
>>> Like most liberal schemes, there will be pretended
>>> "unintended consequences" and a net unavoidable loss to
>>> the economy and the quality of life. Liberalism always
>>> achieves the exact opposite of it's stated intent
>>> (better quality of life vs. degraded quality of life).
>>
>> And you think this lunatic Bush has not degraded quality
>> of life with the costs of this insane war and letting
>> banks and Wall Street manipulate the mortgage and credit
>> market so we are in a serious recession, with the little
>> people getting thrown out of their homes and the big
>> people seeing their assets in financial stocks plummet?
>> You think it's good things were allowed to go hog wild?
>
> Presumably the corollary to his statement is that schemes
> hatched by non-liberals only have intended consequences,
> i.e. the consequences of Bush-Cheney policies were all
> intended. Interesting hypothesis ...

Indeed. Too many parrot the cliché-du-decade instead of
looking deeper into what is necessary so we all do not live
like savages, waiting always for the next murderous tribal
raid. Republicans and Democrats have, liberals and cons,
have far less that divides them than they have in common.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

> > We just can't afford any more Republican presidents and their huge
> > deficits, lack of foreign policy expertise, and their ties to big oil.
>
> BWAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAA
>
> FDR (DEMO-CRAT) got us in WWII....We didn't pay that debt off until 1978....
>
> GO LEARN BEFORE YOU SPEAK

IIRC WW2 went from Sept 1, 1939 to Sept 2, 1945... at least for the
rest of the world. In the US it started on Dec 7, 1941 when the Japs
bomber Pearl Harbor. (How much did that cost?)

If the US had entered the war before that, the Japs wouldn't have been
able to bomb Pearl. Also don't forget the countless billions in aid
the US sent to Europe for rebuilding... if the US had entered the war
with the rest of the world, that may have been reduced as well.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

Before one decides to let the government do MORE to save us from ourselves
one should consider the answers to several questions regarding what the
government has already done?

What was the price of a gallon of gas before the Clean Air act?

What was the price of a gallon of gas before the CAFE?

What was the amount of the FEDERAL & STATE fuel taxes before CAFE?

Why are federal and state roads and bridges deteriorating?

How many refineries were built since the Clean Air act?

How many refineries have been shut down since the Clean Air act?

Why has the cost of diesel fuel gone up $1.60 more than the increase in the
price of gasoline?

What was the average BTU content of a gallon of gas before enthanol was
mandated?

What has happened to the cost of corn, wheat, oats and soy beans since
ethanol was mandated?

Why not require a CAFE of 100 MPG?

What will happen to the cost of everything we buy it the Congress enacts a
carbon tax

Why does one think the government can do anything to help the average
working man in regard to fuel costs?

Why do we keep electing the same nuts?



"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hY_1k.3658$hH.1627@trndny07...
> SMS wrote:
>> Joe wrote:
>>
>>> The solution is to let the price continue to be determined by supply
>>> and demand. If the price gets so high that people start actually
>>> curbing their use of fuel, the price will drop. It has probably
>>> already hit that point, and the price will likely settle around $3.75
>>> per gallon for regular unleaded.
>>
>> This approach is extremely short-sighted.
>>
>> Oil is needed for products other than just than gasoline and diesel fuel.
>> The supply and demand need to be managed carefully, as many countries
>> already do.
>>
>> The actions of those not curbing their use of fuel, directly affect the
>> rest of us. These people need to be penalized.
>
> You mean like the people of the US, who use more fuel, per capita, than
> just about any other country?
>
>>> The oil companies have no responsibility to the customer other than to
>>> provide the product at whatever price people are willing to pay for
>>> it.
>>
>> That's right. It's the government that needs to help set the pricing at a
>> level that is optimal for society as a whole.
>>
> Jeff

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

Mike hunt wrote:
> Before one decides to let the government do MORE to save us from ourselves
> one should consider the answers to several questions regarding what the
> government has already done?
>
> What was the price of a gallon of gas before the Clean Air act?

You can see the gasoline price history, in today's dollars, at
"http://zfacts.com/p/35.html". The Clean Air Act took effect in 1990.

There was no effect on gasoline prices due to the Clean Air Act. The
price came down steadily until W was elected president.

There was no effect on gasoline prices due to the CAFE standard.
> What was the price of a gallon of gas before the CAFE?

You can see the gasoline price history, in today's dollars, at
"http://zfacts.com/p/35.html". The CAFE standard started in 1975.

There was no effect on gasoline prices due to the CAFE standard. The
price came down steadily until W was elected president.

> What was the amount of the FEDERAL & STATE fuel taxes before CAFE?

The federal tax rate was 4 cents a gallon both before and after CAFE.
Under Reagan, it went up to 9 cents a gallon, eight years after CAFE was
instituted. There are 50 states, so you can go check those.

> Why are federal and state roads and bridges deteriorating?

Spending money in Iraq rather than on our own infrastructure.

> How many refineries were built since the Clean Air act?

Zero, but it had nothing to do with the Clean Air Act. It was an effort
on the part of the oil companies to run fewer refineries at higher
capacity, and to reduce refining capacity in order to drive up prices.

> How many refineries have been shut down since the Clean Air act?

A lot, but it had nothing to do with the Clean Air Act. It was an effort
on the part of the oil companies to run fewer refineries at higher
capacity, and to reduce refining capacity in order to drive up prices.

> Why has the cost of diesel fuel gone up $1.60 more than the increase in the
> price of gasoline?

Because people will pay $1.60 more for diesel so the oil companies can
charge $1.60 more. Diesel costs less to refine than gasoline, even with
the requirement for low sulfur diesel.

> What was the average BTU content of a gallon of gas before enthanol was
> mandated?

124,000.

A gallon of Ethanol has 77,000 BTU, so a 10% Ethanol mixture would have
119,300 BTU.

It uses far more BTU to make Ethanol than you get back from burning it.
Only with government subsidies to artificially lower the price is
Ethanol viable. Thank your friend's at Archers Daniel Midland, and their
Republican pals in Congress for this boondoggle.

> What has happened to the cost of corn, wheat, oats and soy beans since
> ethanol was mandated?

Went up. Thank your friend's at Archers Daniel Midland, and their
Republican pals in Congress for this boondoggle.

> Why not require a CAFE of 100 MPG?

100 MPG is impractical with current technology.

> What will happen to the cost of everything we buy it the Congress enacts a
> carbon tax

Unknown. Increased costs cannot always be passed along to the consumer,
because the consumer can switch to other products, or in some case to no
product at all.

> Why does one think the government can do anything to help the average
> working man in regard to fuel costs?

Because some governments understand the law of supply and demand, and
enact policies to drive down demand, which in turns lowers prices.

> Why do we keep electing the same nuts?

We don't. W was elected only once. In 2000 Gore was elected, Bush was
selected.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

Now that you have listed your answers, do a search for the correct answers
and get back to us LOL

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:cMf2k.3398$uE5.1937@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com...
> Mike hunt wrote:
>> Before one decides to let the government do MORE to save us from
>> ourselves one should consider the answers to several questions regarding
>> what the government has already done?
>>
>> What was the price of a gallon of gas before the Clean Air act?
>
> You can see the gasoline price history, in today's dollars, at
> "http://zfacts.com/p/35.html". The Clean Air Act took effect in 1990.
>
> There was no effect on gasoline prices due to the Clean Air Act. The price
> came down steadily until W was elected president.
>
> There was no effect on gasoline prices due to the CAFE standard.
>> What was the price of a gallon of gas before the CAFE?
>
> You can see the gasoline price history, in today's dollars, at
> "http://zfacts.com/p/35.html". The CAFE standard started in 1975.
>
> There was no effect on gasoline prices due to the CAFE standard. The price
> came down steadily until W was elected president.
>
>> What was the amount of the FEDERAL & STATE fuel taxes before CAFE?
>
> The federal tax rate was 4 cents a gallon both before and after CAFE.
> Under Reagan, it went up to 9 cents a gallon, eight years after CAFE was
> instituted. There are 50 states, so you can go check those.
>
>> Why are federal and state roads and bridges deteriorating?
>
> Spending money in Iraq rather than on our own infrastructure.
>
>> How many refineries were built since the Clean Air act?
>
> Zero, but it had nothing to do with the Clean Air Act. It was an effort on
> the part of the oil companies to run fewer refineries at higher capacity,
> and to reduce refining capacity in order to drive up prices.
>
>> How many refineries have been shut down since the Clean Air act?
>
> A lot, but it had nothing to do with the Clean Air Act. It was an effort
> on the part of the oil companies to run fewer refineries at higher
> capacity, and to reduce refining capacity in order to drive up prices.
>
>> Why has the cost of diesel fuel gone up $1.60 more than the increase in
>> the price of gasoline?
>
> Because people will pay $1.60 more for diesel so the oil companies can
> charge $1.60 more. Diesel costs less to refine than gasoline, even with
> the requirement for low sulfur diesel.
>
>> What was the average BTU content of a gallon of gas before enthanol was
>> mandated?
>
> 124,000.
>
> A gallon of Ethanol has 77,000 BTU, so a 10% Ethanol mixture would have
> 119,300 BTU.
>
> It uses far more BTU to make Ethanol than you get back from burning it.
> Only with government subsidies to artificially lower the price is Ethanol
> viable. Thank your friend's at Archers Daniel Midland, and their
> Republican pals in Congress for this boondoggle.
>
>> What has happened to the cost of corn, wheat, oats and soy beans since
>> ethanol was mandated?
>
> Went up. Thank your friend's at Archers Daniel Midland, and their
> Republican pals in Congress for this boondoggle.
>
>> Why not require a CAFE of 100 MPG?
>
> 100 MPG is impractical with current technology.
>
>> What will happen to the cost of everything we buy it the Congress enacts
>> a carbon tax
>
> Unknown. Increased costs cannot always be passed along to the consumer,
> because the consumer can switch to other products, or in some case to no
> product at all.
>
>> Why does one think the government can do anything to help the average
>> working man in regard to fuel costs?
>
> Because some governments understand the law of supply and demand, and
> enact policies to drive down demand, which in turns lowers prices.
>
>> Why do we keep electing the same nuts?
>
> We don't. W was elected only once. In 2000 Gore was elected, Bush was
> selected.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

Mike hunt wrote:
> Now that you have listed your answers, do a search for the correct answers
> and get back to us LOL

You don't like the correct answers because they conflict with your
political beliefs, beliefs that are not based on any reality.

You asked a bunch of loaded questions, unaware of the actual answers,
trying to make a political statement that supported your neo-con
political philosophy, which apparently you gleaned from right wing radio
talk show hosts like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. You should be aware
that these guys are entertainers. They say what they say not because
they actually believe any of it, but because it brings in advertising
dollars to their syndicated shows.

When your ignorance was demonstrated for all to see, the only comeback
you could come up with was a "LOL." Very weak. No wonder or country is
in such dire straits. The educational system has produced a generation
of people like you that have no understanding of economics, foreign
policy, or energy, but that just want to blame everything on someone else.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

As with your answers to the questions you are 180 degrees of out line in you
assment of me LOL

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:n_g2k.73$cW3.38@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Mike hunt wrote:
>> Now that you have listed your answers, do a search for the correct
>> answers and get back to us LOL
>
> You don't like the correct answers because they conflict with your
> political beliefs, beliefs that are not based on any reality.
>
> You asked a bunch of loaded questions, unaware of the actual answers,
> trying to make a political statement that supported your neo-con political
> philosophy, which apparently you gleaned from right wing radio talk show
> hosts like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. You should be aware that these
> guys are entertainers. They say what they say not because they actually
> believe any of it, but because it brings in advertising dollars to their
> syndicated shows.
>
> When your ignorance was demonstrated for all to see, the only comeback you
> could come up with was a "LOL." Very weak. No wonder or country is in such
> dire straits. The educational system has produced a generation of people
> like you that have no understanding of economics, foreign policy, or
> energy, but that just want to blame everything on someone else.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

Waiving the right to remain silent, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> said:

> You can see the gasoline price history, in today's dollars, at
> "http://zfacts.com/p/35.html". The CAFE standard started in 1975.
>
> There was no effect on gasoline prices due to the CAFE standard. The
> price came down steadily until W was elected president.

Horseshit. Look at the chart again. Bush wasn't President in 1999.

--
Larry J. - Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to e-mail

"A lack of common sense is now considered a disability,
with all the privileges that this entails."

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

Waiving the right to remain silent, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> said:

> Mike hunt wrote:

>> Why are federal and state roads and bridges deteriorating?
>
> Spending money in Iraq rather than on our own infrastructure.

What did Clinton spend on infrastructure..? Surely, that huge "budget
surplus" was spent on the betterment of American society..?

Clue: Life didn't begin with Bush's first term.

You're welcome...

--
Larry J. - Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to e-mail

"A lack of common sense is now considered a disability,
with all the privileges that this entails."

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

Waiving the right to remain silent, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> said:

> Mike hunt wrote:
>> Now that you have listed your answers, do a search for the correct
>> answers and get back to us LOL
>
> You don't like the correct answers because they conflict with your
> political beliefs, beliefs that are not based on any reality.
>
> You asked a bunch of loaded questions,

And you povided a bunch of loaded answers...

--
Larry J. - Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to e-mail

"A lack of common sense is now considered a disability,
with all the privileges that this entails."

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

dgk wrote:

> ...What I don't want my government doing is lying about
> the need to go to war, which is what the republicans did.

Yes - we are all very familiar with revisionist history.

You might find this video of none other than Al Gore citing actual
acts committed by Saddam, his documented use of WMD's,
including pursuit of nukes, and berating Bush 1 for doing nothing about it:
http://scripturn.com/video_9JE48XHKG64.html

Here's another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h6gehCPvpk

That's just *one* guy. We don't need to cite all the statements ever
made by all the other hypocritical Democrats, including Clinton, do we?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

Mike hunt wrote:

> ...What was the average BTU content of a gallon of gas before enthanol was
> mandated?

Last week, my family took a vacation to New England from Virginia.
Drove a total of 2100 miles. Every time we transitioned from areas
without gasohol to ones with gasohol, you could watch the mileage
computer average drop steadily with each fillup. It crept up slowly
(due to the high number of miles in the calculated average) after
returning to non-gasohol areas.

> ...What will happen to the cost of everything we buy it the Congress enacts a
> carbon tax...

Many of our jobs will go to third world countries who won't have the
ball and chain carbon tax to deal with and they will pollute worse than
we ever did, so the environment will be harmed more, and everyone will
suffer way more than if the government had not acted so stupidly. The
exact opposite from what is dishonestly claimed to be the intention will
have been achieved.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

SMS wrote:
> Mike hunt wrote:

>> Why are federal and state roads and bridges deteriorating?
>
> Spending money in Iraq rather than on our own infrastructure.

Umm - no. Local and state governments routinely take federal money
specifically provided for maintenance and upgrades of critical
infrastructure and divert them to touchy-feely projects (New Orleans
levies are a *perfect* example of that).


>> Why do we keep electing the same nuts?
>
> We don't. W was elected only once. In 2000 Gore was elected, Bush was
> selected.

Your credibility just flew out the window with that comment.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')