Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

still just me wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:09:21 -0500, Peaceful Bill
> <snails.pace@highspeedturtles.net> wrote:
>
>> still just me wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 20:14:14 -0400, Bill Putney <bptn@kinez.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> There are few programs for the uninsured. The only "programs" in most
>>>>> states are the fact that if you show up in an emergency room they are
>>>>> obligated to treat you.
>>>> You are grossly ignorant about that which you write.
>>> Apparently you don't have much of a clue Bill. Please cite some of
>>> those programs for the uninsured - aside from the state reimbursing
>>> the hospital for uninsured (and uncollectable) emergency room care.
>> How is THAT not insurance?
>
> Apparently you don't know the definition of "insurance" vs. "state
> payout for the uninsured". Perhaps a look at Webster's would help you
> understand "Insurance - Coverage by a contract binding a party to
> indemnify another against specified loss in return for premiums paid."

Same result. We're paying the premiums one way or another.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

still just me wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:07:47 -0500, Peaceful Bill
> <snails.pace@highspeedturtles.net> wrote:
>
>> You seem to be one of the uneducated. So read slowly so you can
>> understand. I'm not going to repeat this even if you just don't get it....
>>
>> Medicaid, Medicare. Any hospital MUST take patients even if they can't pay.
>>
>> And EVERYONE has the right to select and purchase health insurance, or
>> to convert existing coverage.
>
> The "right" to purchase? Yes - assuming they have the $10K a year for
> a policy that still will have only 80% coverage, high out of pocket
> costs, and $500-1000 deductibles per person. Or perhaps they have $5K
> for a $5k deductible policy. Either way, you need a big chunk of
> change to purchase your own coverage and you still pay a huge chunk
> out of your pocket (because health insurance is a service policy, not
> an insurance policy, except in catastrophic cases).
>
> As for "converting existing coverage", I have to assume you are
> referring to someone who has lost a job that provided insurance and
> has been given a right under CORBA to start paying the policy
> themselves. That coverage gets very expensive as soon as the employer
> paid portion runs out.
>
> You seem to be someone who has always had employer paid coverage which
> they consider "free" - and not someone who has even run a company and
> had to shoulder the $8K per year per employee or an individual who has
> to pay $10K per year for short coverage.

I shopped for my employer. If people were more selective about who they
worked for and took more personal responsibility for their own welfare,
the "problem" would not exist.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

still just me wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:07:47 -0500, Peaceful Bill
> <snails.pace@highspeedturtles.net> wrote:
>
>> You seem to be one of the uneducated. So read slowly so you can
>> understand. I'm not going to repeat this even if you just don't get it....
>>
>> Medicaid, Medicare.
>
> Do you have any idea how many people are not eligible for Medicaid or
> Medicare yet still don't make enough to shell out $10K per year for
> insurance after paying for housing and food? Word up - we're not
> talking about the "poor" here, we're talking about millions of middle
> class Americans.
>
>> Any hospital MUST take patients even if they can't pay.
>
> Only for emergencies. Try getting physical therapy for muscle and bone
> injuries without insurance. Try getting a bad hip replaced without
> insurance. Look into scoliosis treatment. The list goes on.

If they are in need, there's existing tax-funded plans that will cover them.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

still just me wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:22:25 -0400, Bill Putney <bptn@kinez.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Medicaid. AFDC.
>
> They are highly restricted by income. You really have no feel for the
> depth of the health insurance problem.

If a person doesn't have enough to cover insurance premiums they will
fall in that category. If they make enough to not fall in that
lower-income category then they will have enough to get their insurance.
IF THEY TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

On Jun 17, 4:50 pm, Peaceful Bill <snails.p...@highspeedturtles.net>
wrote:
> dgk wrote:
> > On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:19:27 -0500, Peaceful Bill
> > <snails.p...@highspeedturtles.net> wrote:
>
> >> dgk wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:42:45 -0700 (PDT), Foobar
> >>> <bamberb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> There are few programs for the uninsured. The only "programs" in most
> >>>>> states are the fact that if you show up in an emergency room they are
> >>>>> obligated to treat you.
> >>>> Which is by definition "insurance".
>
> >>> They are obligated to treat the emergency. My friend just went to the
> >>> ER for a stomach ache. They decided he wasn't about to die and
> >>> proscribed Maalox and told him that it could be Gall Bladder and told
> >>> him to go to his doctor. They do not have to treat anything that is
> >>> not urgent.
>
> >>> Having insurance, he went to his doctor and found out that, yes
> >>> indeed, the GB must come out. But the ER isn't going to do it.
>
> >>> Taiwan recently instituted national healthcare, based on the best
> >>> available model, Medicare.
>
> >>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...wangetshealthy
>
> >>> If only we were advanced enough to do the same.
> >> I'm glad that we're not backward enough to do the same.
>
> > Did you read the stats? Better care and cheaper.
>
> Better care bullshit. I'd rather have agreement with my doctor about my
> healthcare rather than another lifetime bureaucrat.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

>It is the most efficiently run gov program there is. Least
>subisizided program for the output. KB

Which says it all.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

On Jun 17, 6:31 pm, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:50:42 -0500, Peaceful Bill
>
> <snails.p...@highspeedturtles.net> wrote:
> >> Did you read the stats? Better care and cheaper.
>
> >Better care bullshit. I'd rather have agreement with my doctor about my
> >healthcare rather than another lifetime bureaucrat.
>
> So the bureaucrat's at the Insurance Company making the decisions are
> OK with you then?

Yes and No. A Doctor making decision for me is no better.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

On Jun 19, 9:27 pm, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:21:37 -0700 (PDT), "rantonr...@mail.com"
>
> <rantonr...@mail.com> wrote:
> >My tax returns, my tax lawyer, and a little left-wing rag known as
> >INVESTORS BUSINESS DAILY. Everyone older than McCain, as you and I
> >are, knows Reagan raised taxes when it was apparent the supply-side
> >magic wasn't working as advertised.
>
> The real burden fell on George "read my lips, no new taxes" Bush who
> had to raise taxes appreciably to combat the wild overspending and
> trillion $ deficits accumulated by Reagan. Note that the piper is
> coming due now on GWB's wild overspending and trillion $ deficits.

Depends on what the meaning of is "is".

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:28:25 -0700 (PDT), Foobar
<bamberbert@gmail.com> wrote:

>> The real burden fell on George "read my lips, no new taxes" Bush who
>> had to raise taxes appreciably to combat the wild overspending and
>> trillion $ deficits accumulated by Reagan. Note that the piper is
>> coming due now on GWB's wild overspending and trillion $ deficits.
>
>Depends on what the meaning of is "is".

A valid point. GWB won't have to pay the piper. Just like with Reagan,
the successor gets the joy of recognizing reality.

Like Perot says "the first thing to do when you're in a hole is to
stop digging". Bush II doesn't even understand that part, let alone
the follow on.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:30:26 -0500, Peaceful Bill
<snails.pace@highspeedturtles.net> wrote:

>> They are highly restricted by income. You really have no feel for the
>> depth of the health insurance problem.
>
>If a person doesn't have enough to cover insurance premiums they will
>fall in that category. If they make enough to not fall in that
>lower-income category then they will have enough to get their insurance.
> IF THEY TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

There's a hug gape between people who qualify for public assistance
(low income) and people who don't make enough to pay for their own
health insurance (middle class). In addition, the cost of insurance to
employers is out of sight.

It's clear you never had to pay for either out of your own pocket or
you might have a clue.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:28:19 -0500, Peaceful Bill
<snails.pace@highspeedturtles.net> wrote:

>> Only for emergencies. Try getting physical therapy for muscle and bone
>> injuries without insurance. Try getting a bad hip replaced without
>> insurance. Look into scoliosis treatment. The list goes on.
>
>If they are in need, there's existing tax-funded plans that will cover them.

No, there are not. Those are only for people with very low incomes.
People in between low income and high income fall into a large hole.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:27:19 -0500, Peaceful Bill
<snails.pace@highspeedturtles.net> wrote:

>> You seem to be someone who has always had employer paid coverage which
>> they consider "free" - and not someone who has even run a company and
>> had to shoulder the $8K per year per employee or an individual who has
>> to pay $10K per year for short coverage.
>
>I shopped for my employer. If people were more selective about who they
>worked for and took more personal responsibility for their own welfare,
>the "problem" would not exist.

Seems like you're one of the "it doesn't cost me anything, my employer
pays for it all" crowd. I bet you smile with delight when you pay $15
for an office visit that costs $60 and then don't even worry about
where the other $45 comes from. I imagine you've never had a loved one
denied care because some profit minded insurance executive didn't want
to pay for it and reduce their multi-billion $ profits.

Try being the employer/owner some time and paying the costs out of
your own pocket. You'll realize how broken the system is very quickly.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:25:18 -0500, Peaceful Bill
<snails.pace@highspeedturtles.net> wrote:

>> Apparently you don't know the definition of "insurance" vs. "state
>> payout for the uninsured". Perhaps a look at Webster's would help you
>> understand "Insurance - Coverage by a contract binding a party to
>> indemnify another against specified loss in return for premiums paid."
>
>Same result. We're paying the premiums one way or another.

AH... we come to your fundamental misunderstanding about the
difference between "insurance" and "paying money to cover an
incident".

Insurance companies take in money from lots of people. They
risk. They pay out claims, although less than they take in. But while
they have the money in their hands, they make lots of money from
investing it.

The state takes state and federal taxpayer funds and pays for the
uninsured. No risk ing. No investments. They just take tax
dollars and spend them. Hundreds of millions in most states.

I'd like to see them stop using my money to pay the claims. I'd also
like to see lower rates, which would be the result of removing the
profit taking insurance companies from the middle where they serve no
value added function.

But you, brainwashed by those in power, have come to believe that
somehow magical money pays for your insurance and that you are not
paying, through state and federal taxes, for the uninsured.

You get gouged by the insurance company but you don't feel it because
you work for people who feel it for you. You pay lots in taxes to
cover the other claims but you don't feel it because you never look at
the Federal or State budget at the Medi* payment lines or at the taxes
they charge you for it.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:13:36 -0500, Gordon McGrew
<RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:12:31 -0700 (PDT), Foobar
><bamberbert@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Ok. Show me one person in the 15% tax bracket that pays 15%. Just
>>one.
>
>By definition, everyone in the 15% bracket pays a marginal rate of
>15%.


Not really. Marginal rate vs. effective rate.

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

still just me wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:28:25 -0700 (PDT), Foobar
> <bamberbert@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> The real burden fell on George "read my lips, no new taxes" Bush who
>>> had to raise taxes appreciably to combat the wild overspending and
>>> trillion $ deficits accumulated by Reagan. Note that the piper is
>>> coming due now on GWB's wild overspending and trillion $ deficits.
>> Depends on what the meaning of is "is".
>
> A valid point. GWB won't have to pay the piper. Just like with Reagan,
> the successor gets the joy of recognizing reality.
>
> Like Perot says "the first thing to do when you're in a hole is to
> stop digging". Bush II doesn't even understand that part, let alone
> the follow on.

He inherited the given to him by Clinton. Remember the destructive
and contentious change of power from "the impeached" to Bush? The
economic collapse of Clinton's last year? The deception regarding the
threat (why did Sandy Berger steal and destroy those documents?).

Re: OT Cheney - Cutting Gas Tax Stupid
 

still just me wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:30:26 -0500, Peaceful Bill
> <snails.pace@highspeedturtles.net> wrote:
>
>>> They are highly restricted by income. You really have no feel for the
>>> depth of the health insurance problem.
>> If a person doesn't have enough to cover insurance premiums they will
>> fall in that category. If they make enough to not fall in that
>> lower-income category then they will have enough to get their insurance.
>> IF THEY TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
>
> There's a hug gape between people who qualify for public assistance
> (low income) and people who don't make enough to pay for their own
> health insurance (middle class). In addition, the cost of insurance to
> employers is out of sight.
>
> It's clear you never had to pay for either out of your own pocket or
> you might have a clue.

Its clear that you don't have a clue.