Re: People who claim 'they could build a 400mpg Hybrid' amuse me.
 

"Don Stauffer in Minnesota" <stauffer@usfamily.net> wrote in message
news:1171463112.249185.6330@j27g2000cwj.googlegrou ps.com...
> On Feb 14, 5:26 am, SFTVratings_t...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Not so much because of the statement, but because they don't have any
>> math to back-up said statement. Might as well say, "If I flap my arms
>> real hard, I could fly." Yeah. Sure. If it WERE possible to build a
>> 400MPG civic or Prius, Honda or Toyota or Ford would would already be
>> doing it (and bragging about it on the television).
>>
>> There are limits the universe places on Energy-to-Motion conversion.
>> You can't exceed those limits. That means NO civic hybrid or prius
>> hybrid will ever get 400 mpg. As it stands now, both these hybrids
>> are already operating at 40% efficiency. Even if you increased that
>> to 60% (a miracle), you'd still only boost them from 50 to 60mpg.
>>
>> And if you're a wizard like Gandalf who can magically boost a Prius
>> engine to 100%, such that you had a perfect 1-to-1 conversion w/o
>> losses, that's still only 125mpg.
>>
>> In other words, "a 400mpg prius" is not only a bad idea.
>> It violates the Laws of the universe.
>> It's perpetual motion.
>> Impossible.
>>
>> Now if you leave behind the "standard" car shape, and try something
>> exotic life a Jetsons-car, then you might be able to do better.
>> Volkswagen did exactly that a few years ago, with a 1-seat car, 8
>> horsepower engine, and shaped like a cigar.
>>
>> But even then, they still only got 250 miles per gallon.
>
>
>
> Now, with a plug-in hybrid, one can play games. If you only used it
> for trips less than the battery can contribute, one could get infinite
> miles per gallon OF GASOLINE. However, you'd still be using energy,
> of course. It is not really valid to talk about plug-in hybrids in
> terms of mpg, but I suspect that is what some folks are doing.

Car and Drive drove a hybrid prius behind a truck that basically eliminated
all drag. They got around 80 mpg. This was rolling resistance. In real life,
you're going to get more efficent cars over time. But the practical limit
for cars is probably around 60-80 mpg with advances in current (hybrid)
technology. You're not going to do much better by using electricity only.

36.6 kilowatt hours of electricity has the same amount of energy as one
gallon of gasoline. To make the answer meaningful, you have to include the
energy it takes to refine the gasoline and the energy it takes to make the
electricity.

http://www.onlineconversion.com/energy.htm

A kilowatt hour costs about 12 cents to buy, so costs about $4 for the same
amount of energy as in a gallon of gasoline. But it gas engines are only
about 40% efficent, so it costs about $5 for the same amount of energy. So
there is not much cost advantage to using all electricity. Considering that
the motors only work in an electric car when the engine is working, it
probably pays off for both the enivronment and in cash for all-electric cars
with gasoline generators for longer trips (which is what the VW car might
be).

jeff

Re: People who claim 'they could build a 400mpg Hybrid' amuse me.
 

"Don Stauffer in Minnesota" <stauffer@usfamily.net> wrote in message
news:1171463112.249185.6330@j27g2000cwj.googlegrou ps.com...
> On Feb 14, 5:26 am, SFTVratings_t...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Not so much because of the statement, but because they don't have any
>> math to back-up said statement. Might as well say, "If I flap my arms
>> real hard, I could fly." Yeah. Sure. If it WERE possible to build a
>> 400MPG civic or Prius, Honda or Toyota or Ford would would already be
>> doing it (and bragging about it on the television).
>>
>> There are limits the universe places on Energy-to-Motion conversion.
>> You can't exceed those limits. That means NO civic hybrid or prius
>> hybrid will ever get 400 mpg. As it stands now, both these hybrids
>> are already operating at 40% efficiency. Even if you increased that
>> to 60% (a miracle), you'd still only boost them from 50 to 60mpg.
>>
>> And if you're a wizard like Gandalf who can magically boost a Prius
>> engine to 100%, such that you had a perfect 1-to-1 conversion w/o
>> losses, that's still only 125mpg.
>>
>> In other words, "a 400mpg prius" is not only a bad idea.
>> It violates the Laws of the universe.
>> It's perpetual motion.
>> Impossible.
>>
>> Now if you leave behind the "standard" car shape, and try something
>> exotic life a Jetsons-car, then you might be able to do better.
>> Volkswagen did exactly that a few years ago, with a 1-seat car, 8
>> horsepower engine, and shaped like a cigar.
>>
>> But even then, they still only got 250 miles per gallon.
>
>
>
> Now, with a plug-in hybrid, one can play games. If you only used it
> for trips less than the battery can contribute, one could get infinite
> miles per gallon OF GASOLINE. However, you'd still be using energy,
> of course. It is not really valid to talk about plug-in hybrids in
> terms of mpg, but I suspect that is what some folks are doing.

Car and Drive drove a hybrid prius behind a truck that basically eliminated
all drag. They got around 80 mpg. This was rolling resistance. In real life,
you're going to get more efficent cars over time. But the practical limit
for cars is probably around 60-80 mpg with advances in current (hybrid)
technology. You're not going to do much better by using electricity only.

36.6 kilowatt hours of electricity has the same amount of energy as one
gallon of gasoline. To make the answer meaningful, you have to include the
energy it takes to refine the gasoline and the energy it takes to make the
electricity.

http://www.onlineconversion.com/energy.htm

A kilowatt hour costs about 12 cents to buy, so costs about $4 for the same
amount of energy as in a gallon of gasoline. But it gas engines are only
about 40% efficent, so it costs about $5 for the same amount of energy. So
there is not much cost advantage to using all electricity. Considering that
the motors only work in an electric car when the engine is working, it
probably pays off for both the enivronment and in cash for all-electric cars
with gasoline generators for longer trips (which is what the VW car might
be).

jeff

Re: People who claim 'they could build a 400mpg Hybrid' amuse me.
 

In article <l0FAh.2787$ya1.1306@news02.roc.ny>,
"JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> <SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1171452408.323940.77550@p10g2000cwp.googlegro ups.com...
> > Not so much because of the statement, but because they don't have any
> > math to back-up said statement. Might as well say, "If I flap my arms
> > real hard, I could fly." Yeah. Sure.
>
>
> In the original Star Trek program, people would use these little data
> storage things the size of small cookies. What did you think about that idea
> when you saw it?

JoeSpareBedroom, allow me to introduce you to Troy Heagy, performance
troll and the self styled "most annoying man on usenet"

Troy posts under at least half a dozen names (see below) and his game is
to create a thread that might otherwise be interesting, and introduce a
deliberate mistake into it, and watch it fall apart with people arguing
about his mistake instead the actual topic.

He's been busted in rec.arts.tv so many times that he's expanding his
net to other groups, like mostly sci-fi like Farscape, and now auto
related ones like these. But he sets the cross posts to rec.arts.tv to
show that he's still managing to annoy us here.

He'll now scream that we're haters, and are stalking him, etc., etc.,
etc., and probably threaten legal action, yadda yadda yadda.

Oh, and he sends death threats to people that expose him like this, and
then will claim they've been sending HIM death threats, and writing his
boss and trying to get him fired, blah blah blah.

Killfile Troy Heagy in all (s)he-its many incarnations now:
Troy.Heagy@gmail.com,videonovels@yahoo.com
videonovels2010@yahoo.com,telenovels...ddad@yahoo.com
**DON'T FORGET THE NEWEST ONE>>> SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com

Re: People who claim 'they could build a 400mpg Hybrid' amuse me.
 

In article <l0FAh.2787$ya1.1306@news02.roc.ny>,
"JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> <SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1171452408.323940.77550@p10g2000cwp.googlegro ups.com...
> > Not so much because of the statement, but because they don't have any
> > math to back-up said statement. Might as well say, "If I flap my arms
> > real hard, I could fly." Yeah. Sure.
>
>
> In the original Star Trek program, people would use these little data
> storage things the size of small cookies. What did you think about that idea
> when you saw it?

JoeSpareBedroom, allow me to introduce you to Troy Heagy, performance
troll and the self styled "most annoying man on usenet"

Troy posts under at least half a dozen names (see below) and his game is
to create a thread that might otherwise be interesting, and introduce a
deliberate mistake into it, and watch it fall apart with people arguing
about his mistake instead the actual topic.

He's been busted in rec.arts.tv so many times that he's expanding his
net to other groups, like mostly sci-fi like Farscape, and now auto
related ones like these. But he sets the cross posts to rec.arts.tv to
show that he's still managing to annoy us here.

He'll now scream that we're haters, and are stalking him, etc., etc.,
etc., and probably threaten legal action, yadda yadda yadda.

Oh, and he sends death threats to people that expose him like this, and
then will claim they've been sending HIM death threats, and writing his
boss and trying to get him fired, blah blah blah.

Killfile Troy Heagy in all (s)he-its many incarnations now:
Troy.Heagy@gmail.com,videonovels@yahoo.com
videonovels2010@yahoo.com,telenovels...ddad@yahoo.com
**DON'T FORGET THE NEWEST ONE>>> SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com

Re: People who claim 'they could build a 400mpg Hybrid' amuse me.
 

In article <l0FAh.2787$ya1.1306@news02.roc.ny>,
"JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> <SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1171452408.323940.77550@p10g2000cwp.googlegro ups.com...
> > Not so much because of the statement, but because they don't have any
> > math to back-up said statement. Might as well say, "If I flap my arms
> > real hard, I could fly." Yeah. Sure.
>
>
> In the original Star Trek program, people would use these little data
> storage things the size of small cookies. What did you think about that idea
> when you saw it?

JoeSpareBedroom, allow me to introduce you to Troy Heagy, performance
troll and the self styled "most annoying man on usenet"

Troy posts under at least half a dozen names (see below) and his game is
to create a thread that might otherwise be interesting, and introduce a
deliberate mistake into it, and watch it fall apart with people arguing
about his mistake instead the actual topic.

He's been busted in rec.arts.tv so many times that he's expanding his
net to other groups, like mostly sci-fi like Farscape, and now auto
related ones like these. But he sets the cross posts to rec.arts.tv to
show that he's still managing to annoy us here.

He'll now scream that we're haters, and are stalking him, etc., etc.,
etc., and probably threaten legal action, yadda yadda yadda.

Oh, and he sends death threats to people that expose him like this, and
then will claim they've been sending HIM death threats, and writing his
boss and trying to get him fired, blah blah blah.

Killfile Troy Heagy in all (s)he-its many incarnations now:
Troy.Heagy@gmail.com,videonovels@yahoo.com
videonovels2010@yahoo.com,telenovels...ddad@yahoo.com
**DON'T FORGET THE NEWEST ONE>>> SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com

Re: People who claim 'they could build a 400mpg Hybrid' amuse me.
 

In article <l0FAh.2787$ya1.1306@news02.roc.ny>,
"JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> <SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1171452408.323940.77550@p10g2000cwp.googlegro ups.com...
> > Not so much because of the statement, but because they don't have any
> > math to back-up said statement. Might as well say, "If I flap my arms
> > real hard, I could fly." Yeah. Sure.
>
>
> In the original Star Trek program, people would use these little data
> storage things the size of small cookies. What did you think about that idea
> when you saw it?

JoeSpareBedroom, allow me to introduce you to Troy Heagy, performance
troll and the self styled "most annoying man on usenet"

Troy posts under at least half a dozen names (see below) and his game is
to create a thread that might otherwise be interesting, and introduce a
deliberate mistake into it, and watch it fall apart with people arguing
about his mistake instead the actual topic.

He's been busted in rec.arts.tv so many times that he's expanding his
net to other groups, like mostly sci-fi like Farscape, and now auto
related ones like these. But he sets the cross posts to rec.arts.tv to
show that he's still managing to annoy us here.

He'll now scream that we're haters, and are stalking him, etc., etc.,
etc., and probably threaten legal action, yadda yadda yadda.

Oh, and he sends death threats to people that expose him like this, and
then will claim they've been sending HIM death threats, and writing his
boss and trying to get him fired, blah blah blah.

Killfile Troy Heagy in all (s)he-its many incarnations now:
Troy.Heagy@gmail.com,videonovels@yahoo.com
videonovels2010@yahoo.com,telenovels...ddad@yahoo.com
**DON'T FORGET THE NEWEST ONE>>> SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com

Re: People who claim 'they could build a 400mpg Hybrid' amuse me.
 

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
> <SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1171452408.323940.77550@p10g2000cwp.googlegro ups.com...
> > Not so much because of the statement, but because they don't have any
> > math to back-up said statement. Might as well say, "If I flap my arms
> > real hard, I could fly." Yeah. Sure.
>
>
> In the original Star Trek program, people would use these little data
> storage things the size of small cookies. What did you think about that idea
> when you saw it?


I thought it was theoretically possible, if they used electrons as
their method of storage. (Where the presence of an electron = 1, or
the absence thereof = 0.)

But you see, cars are now reaching the theoretical maximum. You can't
exceed 100% efficiency, and there are diesels on the road right now
(like the Lupo) that have 51% peak efficiency. So there's room for
improvement, but very very little.

Re: People who claim 'they could build a 400mpg Hybrid' amuse me.
 

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
> <SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1171452408.323940.77550@p10g2000cwp.googlegro ups.com...
> > Not so much because of the statement, but because they don't have any
> > math to back-up said statement. Might as well say, "If I flap my arms
> > real hard, I could fly." Yeah. Sure.
>
>
> In the original Star Trek program, people would use these little data
> storage things the size of small cookies. What did you think about that idea
> when you saw it?


I thought it was theoretically possible, if they used electrons as
their method of storage. (Where the presence of an electron = 1, or
the absence thereof = 0.)

But you see, cars are now reaching the theoretical maximum. You can't
exceed 100% efficiency, and there are diesels on the road right now
(like the Lupo) that have 51% peak efficiency. So there's room for
improvement, but very very little.

Re: People who claim 'they could build a 400mpg Hybrid' amuse me.
 

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
> <SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1171452408.323940.77550@p10g2000cwp.googlegro ups.com...
> > Not so much because of the statement, but because they don't have any
> > math to back-up said statement. Might as well say, "If I flap my arms
> > real hard, I could fly." Yeah. Sure.
>
>
> In the original Star Trek program, people would use these little data
> storage things the size of small cookies. What did you think about that idea
> when you saw it?


I thought it was theoretically possible, if they used electrons as
their method of storage. (Where the presence of an electron = 1, or
the absence thereof = 0.)

But you see, cars are now reaching the theoretical maximum. You can't
exceed 100% efficiency, and there are diesels on the road right now
(like the Lupo) that have 51% peak efficiency. So there's room for
improvement, but very very little.

Re: People who claim 'they could build a 400mpg Hybrid' amuse me.
 

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
> <SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1171452408.323940.77550@p10g2000cwp.googlegro ups.com...
> > Not so much because of the statement, but because they don't have any
> > math to back-up said statement. Might as well say, "If I flap my arms
> > real hard, I could fly." Yeah. Sure.
>
>
> In the original Star Trek program, people would use these little data
> storage things the size of small cookies. What did you think about that idea
> when you saw it?


I thought it was theoretically possible, if they used electrons as
their method of storage. (Where the presence of an electron = 1, or
the absence thereof = 0.)

But you see, cars are now reaching the theoretical maximum. You can't
exceed 100% efficiency, and there are diesels on the road right now
(like the Lupo) that have 51% peak efficiency. So there's room for
improvement, but very very little.

Re: People who claim 'they could build a 400mpg Hybrid' amuse me.
 

"SFTVratings" <SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1171467870.596917.50990@l53g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
>
> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>> <SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1171452408.323940.77550@p10g2000cwp.googlegro ups.com...
>> > Not so much because of the statement, but because they don't have any
>> > math to back-up said statement. Might as well say, "If I flap my arms
>> > real hard, I could fly." Yeah. Sure.
>>
>>
>> In the original Star Trek program, people would use these little data
>> storage things the size of small cookies. What did you think about that
>> idea
>> when you saw it?
>
>
> I thought it was theoretically possible, if they used electrons as
> their method of storage. (Where the presence of an electron = 1, or
> the absence thereof = 0.)
>


Theoretically possible? We have those things now, Einstein.

Re: People who claim 'they could build a 400mpg Hybrid' amuse me.
 

"SFTVratings" <SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1171467870.596917.50990@l53g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
>
> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>> <SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1171452408.323940.77550@p10g2000cwp.googlegro ups.com...
>> > Not so much because of the statement, but because they don't have any
>> > math to back-up said statement. Might as well say, "If I flap my arms
>> > real hard, I could fly." Yeah. Sure.
>>
>>
>> In the original Star Trek program, people would use these little data
>> storage things the size of small cookies. What did you think about that
>> idea
>> when you saw it?
>
>
> I thought it was theoretically possible, if they used electrons as
> their method of storage. (Where the presence of an electron = 1, or
> the absence thereof = 0.)
>


Theoretically possible? We have those things now, Einstein.

Re: People who claim 'they could build a 400mpg Hybrid' amuse me.
 

"SFTVratings" <SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1171467870.596917.50990@l53g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
>
> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>> <SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1171452408.323940.77550@p10g2000cwp.googlegro ups.com...
>> > Not so much because of the statement, but because they don't have any
>> > math to back-up said statement. Might as well say, "If I flap my arms
>> > real hard, I could fly." Yeah. Sure.
>>
>>
>> In the original Star Trek program, people would use these little data
>> storage things the size of small cookies. What did you think about that
>> idea
>> when you saw it?
>
>
> I thought it was theoretically possible, if they used electrons as
> their method of storage. (Where the presence of an electron = 1, or
> the absence thereof = 0.)
>


Theoretically possible? We have those things now, Einstein.

Re: People who claim 'they could build a 400mpg Hybrid' amuse me.
 

"SFTVratings" <SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1171467870.596917.50990@l53g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
>
> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>> <SFTVratings_troy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1171452408.323940.77550@p10g2000cwp.googlegro ups.com...
>> > Not so much because of the statement, but because they don't have any
>> > math to back-up said statement. Might as well say, "If I flap my arms
>> > real hard, I could fly." Yeah. Sure.
>>
>>
>> In the original Star Trek program, people would use these little data
>> storage things the size of small cookies. What did you think about that
>> idea
>> when you saw it?
>
>
> I thought it was theoretically possible, if they used electrons as
> their method of storage. (Where the presence of an electron = 1, or
> the absence thereof = 0.)
>


Theoretically possible? We have those things now, Einstein.

Re: People who claim 'they could build a 400mpg Hybrid' amuse me.
 

Geoff wrote:
> ...... Considering that
> the motors only work in an electric car when the engine is working, it
> probably pays off for both the enivronment and in cash for all-electric cars
> with gasoline generators for longer trips (which is what the VW car might
> be).


No. The VW cigar-shaped car/prototype was a conventional diesel
engine. The reason it could get ~250 mpg at highway speeds is because
it was very, very narrow & its Air resistance was almost null.

All they needed was an 8 horsepower engine, which burns very little
fuel.