Re: protectionist b.s.
 

On 02/06/2010 10:44 PM, jr92 wrote:
> On Feb 5, 12:10�am, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> On 02/04/2010 08:29 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> "E. Meyer"<e.p.me...@verizon.net> �wrote in
>>> news:C7906C39.17000%e.p.meyer@verizon.net:
>>
>>>> On 2/3/10 7:28 PM, in article
>>>> geWdnbQpzPojv_fWnZ2dnUVZ_rudn...@giganews.com, "dbu''"
>>>> <nos...@nobama.com.invalid> �wrote:
>>
>>>>> In article<Xns9D14C85F6C360teg...@208.90.168.18>,
>>>>> � Tegger<inva...@invalid.inv> �wrote:
>>
>>>>>> "tww1491"<twau...@cox.net> �wrote in
>>>>>> news:Fooan.26826$fu3.6796@newsfe12.iad:
>>
>>>>>>> "jim beam"<m...@privacy.net> �wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:SYadnYVv5qcHDvTWnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>
>>>>>>>> if toyota needs to learn a lesson from this fiasco, it's that they
>>>>>>>> need to show up in washington and hand over their lobbying cash
>>>>>>>> like detroit does, not be politically naive and simply rely on
>>>>>>>> selling superior product.
>>
>>>>>>> In the local paper a couple days ago, a 79 year old women crashed
>>>>>>> into a veterinarian's office claiming that the gas pedal on her new
>>>>>>> Toyota stuck. The dealer found nothing wrong with the car. With
>>>>>>> that story in the paper were reports of drivers complaining to the
>>>>>>> local Toyota dealer that they received speeding tickets because of
>>>>>>> "stuck" pedals. And so it has begun. And yet much more to come.
>>
>>>>>> Keep in mind that there have been exactly twelve (12) confirmed
>>>>>> incidents of actual stuck gas pedals on Toyotas since October.
>>>>>> Worldwide. Over 2.3 million vehicles.
>>
>>>>>> That's 0.00052%, in case anybody's counting.
>>
>>>>> That is well within any reasonable sample of defects for the NASA
>>>>> space program parts!!!
>>
>>>>> THIS has been wildly overblown. �BUT....Toyota has been up to the
>>>>> challenge. �They will have it fixed. �The Toyota vehicles will be
>>>>> better than the space shuttle after all is said and done.
>>
>>>> I remember a month or two after the overturning Ford Explorer fiasco
>>>> hit the press there was suddenly an epidemic of SUVs of all makes and
>>>> models flipping over on their sides at every intersection. �Before all
>>>> the publicity, I don't remember ever seeing an overturned SUV.
>>>> Strange things happen when people start thinking they can cash in.
>>
>>> OTOH,it might be just that the media began NOTICING the SUV rollovers,and
>>> reporting nationally on every one that happened,instead of just local
>>> reporting.
>>
>>> Kinda like reaching critical mass.... ;-)
>>
>>> Now,I've been reading that the Obama administration's -reaction- to the
>>> Toyota recall may be due to union influence,considering Toyota is NON-union
>>> and a "foreign" automaker. (although it's cars have more domestic content
>>> than many "American" vehicles,that may be made in Canada or Mexico.
>>
>>> On the Prius brake/cruise control problem,considering that car is a hybrid
>>> electric(with integral computer control of throttle/braking),I can see
>>> software bugs cropping up. Sometimes it takes a while to encounter a SW
>>> bug,particularly under unusual conditions. Like what happens if a ROM's
>>> data is corrupted;lose a byte here or there,in the wrong place,and you have
>>> a potentially hazardous condition waiting to be discovered.There's all
>>> sorts of reasons memory data could get corrupted,AFTER the car is shipped
>>> and sold.
>>> At least aircraft have redundant systems.
>>
>>> that's why I'm not so hot on drive-by-wire autos;SW glitches.
>>
>> well, i drove a prius extensively this past summer, and found it to be a
>> smooth, finely engineered vehicle - no glitches, flaws, or mistakes in
>> performance anywhere. �responsive too. �wouldn't hesitate to recommend
>> one for driveability.
>>
>
>
> Geeze, you drove a Prius for a whole summer without any braking
> problems, and that proves it is great automobile.
>
> Ok/
>
>
> I have driven A WHOLE BUNCH OF GM CARS FOR OVER 34 YEARS with 'no
> glitches, flaws or mistakes in performance anywhere".
>
>
> I would recomend any of them for driveability, as well.
>
>
> Of course, my 34 years of GM dont count for much, because you drove a
> TOYOTA FOR A WHOLE SUMMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> I guess that makes you an expert on the reliablity on Toyota products.
>
>
> And, I guess, I need to own GM products for another 34 years before I
> begin to know anything about them.
>

well apparently you haven't bothered to check out the competition. and
you haven't lifted the lid on quality either.



>
>
>
>
> You really sound stupid when you try to say the couple of miles you
> drove this car proves it is better than a brand that someone else has
> driven for HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF MILES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>
>
> Without sludge problems.
>
>
>
> Or accelerator sticking problems.
>
>
>
>
> Or rusting problems.
>
>
>
>
> Or breaking problems.

breaking? or braking?


>
>
>
>
>
> Of course, none of the above problems really exist on Toyotas.
>
>
>
>
> You know that because you drove a Prius for a summer.
>
>
>
> Get a grip!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "They are being set up."
>
>
>
>
> I argued GM was being unfairly slammed for many years.
>
>
> Your turn to argue Toyota is being done the same way.
>
>
> I would wish you good luck in your crusade to prove they ain/t being
> done the same way, but I dont want to be a liar.
>
>
> I hope they have to recall another 20,000,000 vehicles, and listen to
> the likes of you try to defend it.

1. the fundamental problem with your position is swallowing the red
herring that there is a "problem" with toyota. if there's a "problem"
with toyota, why are we not also hearing about the much more common
problems with frod and bmw? their failures outnumber toyota's >100:1.

2. "the likes of me" know a little about engineering and q.c. why "the
likes of you" buy unreliable, poor handling, gas guzzling cars for the
same price as a better japanese vehicle defeats all logic.

3. if your argument is that of xenophobic flag flying, you will
doubtless be disappointed to learn how underinformed you are: gm are the
largest "outsourcers" of component manufacture in the industry - keeping
gm alive gives jobs primarily to chinese component manufacturers, not
american ones.


>
>
>
>> i also drove a chevy hhr, and if there is an example of "fly-by-wire"
>> done wrong, the hhr is it - what a piece of crap. �whoever decided a
>> vehicle needs a 3-second delay on mid-throttle response needs a good
>> kicking in the gonads.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>

Re: protectionist b.s.
 

On 02/06/2010 11:28 PM, jr92 wrote:
> On Feb 5, 12:34�am, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> On 02/04/2010 08:49 PM, jr92 wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 3, 10:17 am, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> �wrote:
>>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100203...autocompanyrec...
>>
>>>> "US chides Toyota over recall"
>>
>>>> this is back-door protectionist political bullshit.
>>
>>> You mean, like the Japanese version of protectionism that, in 2008,
>>> exported over 2 million vechicles to the US, while at the same time,
>>> only allowing 12 thousand American nameplates to be imported
>>> there??????
>>
>> no, i mean the us protectionism that hypocritically masquerades detroit
>> brands as "domestic" when all the brakes, steering gear, driveshafts,
>> instruments, seats, etc. are imported from china killing american companies.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> You are really a piece of work. I bet you juggle real well.
>
> You competly miss my point of JAPANESE protectionism regarding
> American nameplates, and at the same time lie about "all" parts
> (paraphrasing here) on domestic vehicles come from China.
>
>
> Far from the truth, of cours, but believe what you want, just as you
> believe a few days driving a Prius while being lucky enough to not
> have brake problems "prove" the problem is pollitically motivated by
> the US.
>
>
>
>>
>>> Or the type of protectionism that �Japan displayed when they had their
>>> own "cash for clunkers" program, but excluded the handful of American
>>> nameplates that WERE sold there from the program???????
>>
>
>
>
>> cash for clunkers was ridiculously ill-conceived idiocy. �it would have
>> been cheaper and better for the american public to divide the money
>> among the few remaining detroit workers and close the money-sucking
>> dinosaurs for which they "work".
>>
>>
>
> And yet, you miss my point by a few light years.
>
>
> My point is, "WHY DID THE JAPANESE NOT INCLUDE AMERICAN NAMEPLATES IN
> THEIR CASH FOR CLUNKERS PROGRAM???

because it would be a waste of money - the japanese don't buy crappy
american cars.


>
>
> If the American nameplates are the junk that you suggest they are, no
> one in Japan would buy them in the first place.
>
>
> If that is the case, why doesn't Japan allow a true free market, and
> allow US vehicles be sold in Japan without restrictions?????

there are no restrictions against american brands in south america,
thailand, the philippines, australia, south africa, [etc.] why do
japanese brands outsell american in those markets?



>
>
> I American cars were the junk the likes of you suggest, no one in
> Japan would buy them if the first place.

they only sell in the domestic market - nobody else buys them. and out
junkyards are /full/ of domestics that are only 10 years old.


>
>
> Of, course, the way Japan has is set up, no one really gets the chance
> to buy them in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no so with the rest of the global markets buddy, and our product line
sucks - that's why it doesn't sell.



>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Sounds fair to me, I guess, if I were from Japan.
>>
>>>> fact: ford, bmw, and others have all had throttle sensor problems, and
>>>> in much greater numbers than toyota.
>>
>>>> fact: the media has all but ignored it.
>>
>>> Amazing statement.
>>
>>> For over three decades, the media has lamblasted American autos for
>>> everything from interior light bulbs burning out, to weather stripping
>>> dry-rotting after 10 years. They hammered away repeatedly at the "lack
>>> of American reliability until many, who did not check things out on
>>> their own, began to believe them.
>>
>> go to a junk yard buddy. �you'll see domestic vehicles by the thousand,
>> 10 years and younger. �you'll see japanese 15 years and older. �the
>> domestics are worn out. �the japanese are there simply because their
>> drivers got bored.
>>
>> nothing speaks to reliability facts better than a junkyard.
>>
>>
>
> Or the highway.
>
> Take any year you want: 1995, 2007,1988, 1993, or whatever.
>
> See how many American namelates are on the road compared to their
> "superior" Japanese conterparts.
>
>
> I bet you would be surprised.

you must live in some podunk rural community. in the cities, where the
volume is, it's all japanese and european.


>
>
>>
>>> Now, the worm is beginning to turn, and there are those who believed
>>> what the media said for thirty years, are �accusing them of the same
>>> things they did against American nameplates.
>>
>> hey, i'm a patriot and i'll always buy domestic when it makes sense.
>> but detroit vehicles are unbelievable crap. �and i don't like being
>> ripped off by mercenary a-holes that try to sell me vehicles they /know/
>> to be defective - frod and their exploder fiasco. �and i don't like
>> having to pay through the nose to keep gas guzzling unreliable pieces of
>> s. on the road when i can buy japanese and actually get a reliable vehicle.
>>
>
> Once again you are pulling a Cyndi Lauper and are displaying your
> "true colors"
>
> you are biased to the nth degree as far as American nameplates go.
>
> "domestic crap"
>
> "unbelievable crap"
>
> "unreliable pieces of s"
>
>
> All untrue, of course.

you need to lift the hood on a few cars in a junk yard - the quality
differences between japanese and domestic stand out a mile.


>
> Your one summer of Prius driving does not "prove" American nameplates
> are bad.

no, it exposes the hysterical bullshit lie about so-called prius
"braking problems"


>
>
>>
>>
>>> Maybe turn-a-bout IS fair play!
>>
>> telling the truth is fair play. �detroit produces garbage and expects
>> the tax payer to bail out their inability to produce vehicles properly.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> here we are, hot on the heels of political dismay at the unconsidered
>>>> consequences of their ridiculous "cash for clunkers" program benefiting
>>>> manufacturers of fuel efficient cars, not domestic gas guzzlers, being
>>>> subjected to politically motivated hysterical xenophobia.
>>
>>> Kinda funny how it took about 20 MILLION
>>
>> ok dude, now you're just a bullshitter.
>>
>
>
> No, just facts, even if you don't want to believe them.
>
>
> Check it out, not hard to find.

so help a poor old bullshitting retard out - cite your sources. your
explanation of why frod manages to escape recalls for fatal design flaws
that have killed hundreds would be good too.


>
>
>
>> �> Toyota recalls over the past
>>
>>
>>
>>> 3 or 4 years before it became politically motivated, or a "hysterical
>>> xeonphobia."
>>
>>> Hell , a good chunk of the MILLIONS of recalls happened well before it
>>> became "chic' to knock Toyota.
>>
>>> The sludging engines, or rusting supensions were known well before the
>>> US government began ownership in GM or Chysler, so there was nothing
>>> to be gained by the US pressuring Toyota into making recalls. There
>>> goes the 'conflict of interest" argument.
>>
>>> And BTW, if you believe Toyota has NOT been spending bundles of money
>>> lobbying Washington, then YOU are more naive than you claim Toyota is.
>>
>>>> fact: toyota sells better, more fuel efficient, safer, more reliable
>>>> vehicles using american parts and american labor than domestics
>>>> assembling their carp from the chinese componentry they import.
>>
>>> Really, you didn't make a single factual statement at all in this
>>> paragrah.
>>
>>> Matter of fact, just the opposite of what you stated is actually true.
>>
>>>> if toyota needs to learn a lesson from this fiasco, it's that they need
>>>> to show up in washington and hand over their lobbying cash like detroit
>>>> does, not be politically naive and simply rely on selling superior product.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>

Re: protectionist b.s.
 

jr92 <coachrose13@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:c37f1896-29f5-406f-afd0-bca4507d2fcb@f15g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:


>
>
> Maybe because the Japanese government fears the public might not do
> so???????
>



Who cares? Why is it so important that they buy our cars?

We've got lots of other stuff to sell Japan besides cars.

Canada last year, for instance, sold just a little more overall to Japan
than Japan did to Canada.


--
Tegger

Re: protectionist b.s.
 

In message <4b6aef1a$0$22841$ce5e7886@news-radius.ptd.net>, Mike Hunter
<Mikehunt2@lycos.?.invalid> writes
>If I were driving a Toyota today, I would drive with my left foot poised
>over the brake pedal ;)
Then, in a panic situation, you would depress both pedals but swear you
only braked and that the car was trying to accelerate.
--
Clive

Re: protectionist b.s.
 

In message
<c37f1896-29f5-406f-afd0-bca4507d2fcb@f15g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
jr92 <coachrose13@hotmail.com> writes
>The GOVERNMENT restricts the number of US imports sold in Japan.
>
>If there were "TRUE FREE TRADE", and the Japanese still didn't buy
>from the USA, you might have a point.
I believe there really is free trade, it's just that so many makes of
car don't conform to the tight Japanese specification.
--
Clive

Re: protectionist b.s.
 

That is probably true, Japan has to import all of its beef, leather, wood or
paper products and a lot of it food stuffs


"Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
news:Xns9D18649902DDEtegger@208.90.168.18...
> jr92 <coachrose13@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:c37f1896-29f5-406f-afd0-bca4507d2fcb@f15g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>>
>>
>> Maybe because the Japanese government fears the public might not do
>> so???????
>>
>
>
>
> Who cares? Why is it so important that they buy our cars?
>
> We've got lots of other stuff to sell Japan besides cars.
>
> Canada last year, for instance, sold just a little more overall to Japan
> than Japan did to Canada.
>
>
> --
> Tegger
>

Re: protectionist b.s.
 

Perhaps IF the driver in dumb enough to NOT take their right foot of the
accelerator. But then again that could happen since they are continuing to
drive their cars, that are know to have an uncontrolled acceleration problem
that has let to 5.4 million of them to being recalled around the world.


"Clive" <Clive@yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:vMsgEJOjxtbLFw6r@yewbank.demon.co.uk...
> In message <4b6aef1a$0$22841$ce5e7886@news-radius.ptd.net>, Mike Hunter
> <Mikehunt2@lycos.?.invalid> writes
>>If I were driving a Toyota today, I would drive with my left foot poised
>>over the brake pedal ;)
> Then, in a panic situation, you would depress both pedals but swear you
> only braked and that the car was trying to accelerate.
> --
> Clive
>

Re: protectionist b.s.
 

"Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
news:Xns9D178C1E7E91Dtegger@208.90.168.18...
> "Stewart" <gortamus@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:hkk62t$ag0$1@news.eternal-
> september.org:
>
>
>>>
>>
>> Dare we say Class Action Lawsuit? Everyone affected will get $2500
>> off their next new Toyota purchase,
>
>
>
> More likely you'll just get a coupon for $10 off your next oil
> change.
>
>
>
>> and the lawyer firm will get millions.....
>>
>
>
> That's a certainty. That's what mass tort is for.
>
>
> --
> Tegger
>

A fair and equitable distribution for the customers troubles. Now
where did that Microsoft coupon go......

Re: protectionist b.s.
 

On Feb 7, 8:08 am, Clive <Cl...@yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message
> <c37f1896-29f5-406f-afd0-bca4507d2...@f15g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
> jr92 <coachros...@hotmail.com> writes>The GOVERNMENT restricts the numberof US imports sold in Japan.
>
> >If there were "TRUE FREE TRADE", and the Japanese still didn't buy
> >from the USA, you might have a point.
>
> I believe there really is free trade, it's just that so many makes of
> car don't conform to the tight Japanese specification.
> --
> Clive

I'm new here, having just bought our first Honda Pilot Touring, so
joined the group. We lived all over Europe, and I've been to Japan,
Korea and, unfortunately, Vietnam. My observation was that they drive
German cars in Germany, French cars in France, Italian...well you get
it... mostly because they really do have a sense of national
identity. In places where, like Cairo, there is no "national" car
then they go for - like the family we've known for years - Honda
because they thought enough to put in a dealership, with trained
mechanics. Otherwise every block has a "shade tree" mechanic for the
old cars that they do have. Most countries have tax policies (like
taxing engine displacement - in Germany) that are a de facto
limitation on imports. Other places, like Switzerland, have a huge
import as well as annual road usage tax, which obviates against big
American cars. And I talked to a Swiss about selling my 455 Pontiac
Bonneville (they want the engine for boats) and he outlined what it
would cost. So there are a lot of factors, mostly taxes, and annual
costs, not to mention the lack of service. We always bought a VW for
delivery in Germany, when we knew we were going, just because of the
service network. I toured an E-Type Jaguar across Europe, and had an
atlas with the few service places outlined. Well, the grandkids just
arrived, so off to get cookies!

Re: protectionist b.s.
 

In message <4b6ef671$0$23000$ce5e7886@news-radius.ptd.net>, Mike Hunter
<Mikehunt2@lycos.?.invalid> writes
>Perhaps IF the driver in dumb enough to NOT take their right foot of the
>accelerator. But then again that could happen since they are continuing to
>drive their cars, that are know to have an uncontrolled acceleration problem
>that has let to 5.4 million of them to being recalled around the world.
Why do you assume that a sticking pedal (constant speed) should in your
mind constitute "uncontrollable acceleration"?
--
Clive

Re: protectionist b.s.
 

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:26:26 -0800, Stewart wrote:

>
> "Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> news:Xns9D178C1E7E91Dtegger@208.90.168.18...
>> "Stewart" <gortamus@gmail.com> wrote in news:hkk62t$ag0$1@news.eternal-
>> september.org:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>> Dare we say Class Action Lawsuit? Everyone affected will get $2500 off
>>> their next new Toyota purchase,
>>
>>
>>
>> More likely you'll just get a coupon for $10 off your next oil change.
>>
>>
>>
>>> and the lawyer firm will get millions.....
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That's a certainty. That's what mass tort is for.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tegger
>>
>>
> A fair and equitable distribution for the customers troubles. Now where
> did that Microsoft coupon go......

Really. The only people who win in a class action lawsuit are the lawyers.

Re: protectionist b.s.
 

"Hachiroku ????" <Trueno@e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.02.07.22.00.55.260337@e86.GTS...
> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:26:26 -0800, Stewart wrote:
>
>>
>> "Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9D178C1E7E91Dtegger@208.90.168.18...
>>> "Stewart" <gortamus@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:hkk62t$ag0$1@news.eternal-
>>> september.org:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Dare we say Class Action Lawsuit? Everyone affected will get
>>>> $2500 off
>>>> their next new Toyota purchase,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> More likely you'll just get a coupon for $10 off your next oil
>>> change.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> and the lawyer firm will get millions.....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's a certainty. That's what mass tort is for.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tegger
>>>
>>>
>> A fair and equitable distribution for the customers troubles. Now
>> where
>> did that Microsoft coupon go......
>
> Really. The only people who win in a class action lawsuit are the
> lawyers.
>
>
>

You won't get an argument from me on that point.

Re: protectionist b.s.
 

On Feb 7, 9:16 am, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 02/06/2010 11:37 PM, jr92 wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 1:17 am, Tegger<inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> >> jr92<coachros...@hotmail.com> wrote innews:28a1db53-7537-473d-8873-d2afacbd189a@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
>
> >>> On Feb 3, 10:17 am, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >>>>http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100203...autocompanyrec..
> >>>> ..
>
> >>>> "US chides Toyota over recall"
>
> >>>> this is back-door protectionist political bullshit.
>
> >>> You mean, like the Japanese version of protectionism that, in 2008,
> >>> exported over 2 million vechicles to the US, while at the same time,
> >>> only allowing 12 thousand American nameplates to be imported
> >>> there??????
>
> >> So what? Maybe the Japs simply don't like our cars. Ever thought of that?
> >> If WE won't buy them, why would THEY?
>
> > If that is the case, why not let the free market decide???????????????
>
> > If you are right, the Japanese would NOT buy US products.
>
> > But, of course, they MIGHT buy US if they HAD THE CHANCE TO DO SO IN
> > THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> > The GOVERNMENT restricts the number of US imports sold in Japan.
>
> > If there were "TRUE FREE TRADE", and the Japanese still didn't buy
> > from the USA, you might have a point.
>
> > But, being they are not allowed to so IN THE FIRST PLACE, you simply
> > make a moot point/
>
> > Why not give the Japanese the CHOICE TO REJECT US
> > NAMEPLATES?????????????????
>
> > Maybe because the Japanese government fears the public might not do
> > so???????
>
> that doesn't explain why japanese vehicles sell so well in all the other
> markets where u.s. manufacturers are free to compete.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automot...y_Manufacturer
>
> note that
>
> 1. vw outsells gm globally for cars.


>


Might be true today. Tomorrow might be different.



The market is very fluid at this point, and who " out sells who"
changes almost monthly.



Fact of the matter is, wether they are second, first, or third in
total sales, GM sell MILLIONS of vehicles world wide, in markets where
they ARE ALLOWED TO COMPETE!!!!!!



I've said it a thousand times before, but here it goes again:



If you sell MILLIONS OF ANYTHING, it ain't junk.



Junk doesn't sell, not by the millions.



So, getting back to my original point, GM sell Millions of cars and
trucks world-wide, but only 12000 in Japan.



Sounds to me Japan is using very unfair trade practices, or
"protectionism".





> 2. gm's non-domestic product line includes opel, a range of cheap,
> small, efficient vehicles with global appeal that sell well in other
> markets [but they don't make them here]. they have a real hard time
> selling their domestic product line overseas and they'd be sunk if they
> were so trying.
>




Yet, they cant build Buicks fast enough for China.



Selling 'em by the millions.



And they are hardly either, "non-domestic, nor cheap, small efficient
vehicles"





> fact is, the japanese make better, more reliable vehicles that sell well
> in every market in the world. u.s. domestic vehicles have very limited
> appeal outside domestic markets so this "protectionist" argument doesn't
> wash..
>

>

Fact is, you are wrong, once again. Any way you can objectively
compare US to Japan clearly shows American nameplates are as good as,
or better than, what Japan has to offer. Check the numbers.


As far as biased-typed comparisons, I guess you'll have to stick to
the likes of Consumer Reports or the mass media (but wait, they are
beginning to hammer at the Toyotas like they did Gm in the 80's and
90's.)


I guess we'll have to go to newsgroups like this and listen to the
likes of you whine about how unfair the media is treating Japanese
vehicles.


Hell , even Jim Higgins has posted negative things about Toyotas
lately.


If that ain't a sigh they are in trouble, I don't know what is!


>
>
>
> >> There's a reason Toyota has the market share they do, in spite of all the
> >> hatred directed against them from certain quarters.
>



As does GM.



Don't forget, they haven't left the planet yet. They are still selling
millions of cars and trucks.


Actually, its pretty amazing how they still sell so many vehicles
considering the things they have had to over come in the past 30
years.



Just more evidence they must make a pretty damned good product,



> >> --
> >> Tegger- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Re: protectionist b.s.
 

On Feb 7, 9:23 am, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 02/06/2010 10:44 PM, jr92 wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 12:10 am, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >> On 02/04/2010 08:29 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>
> >>> "E. Meyer"<e.p.me...@verizon.net> wrote in
> >>>news:C7906C39.17000%e.p.meyer@verizon.net:
>
> >>>> On 2/3/10 7:28 PM, in article
> >>>> geWdnbQpzPojv_fWnZ2dnUVZ_rudn...@giganews.com, "dbu''"
> >>>> <nos...@nobama.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> >>>>> In article<Xns9D14C85F6C360teg...@208.90.168.18>,
> >>>>> Tegger<inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> "tww1491"<twau...@cox.net> wrote in
> >>>>>>news:Fooan.26826$fu3.6796@newsfe12.iad:
>
> >>>>>>> "jim beam"<m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> >>>>>>>news:SYadnYVv5qcHDvTWnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@speak easy.net...
>
> >>>>>>>> if toyota needs to learn a lesson from this fiasco, it's that they
> >>>>>>>> need to show up in washington and hand over their lobbying cash
> >>>>>>>> like detroit does, not be politically naive and simply rely on
> >>>>>>>> selling superior product.
>
> >>>>>>> In the local paper a couple days ago, a 79 year old women crashed
> >>>>>>> into a veterinarian's office claiming that the gas pedal on her new
> >>>>>>> Toyota stuck. The dealer found nothing wrong with the car. With
> >>>>>>> that story in the paper were reports of drivers complaining to the
> >>>>>>> local Toyota dealer that they received speeding tickets because of
> >>>>>>> "stuck" pedals. And so it has begun. And yet much more to come.
>
> >>>>>> Keep in mind that there have been exactly twelve (12) confirmed
> >>>>>> incidents of actual stuck gas pedals on Toyotas since October.
> >>>>>> Worldwide. Over 2.3 million vehicles.
>
> >>>>>> That's 0.00052%, in case anybody's counting.
>
> >>>>> That is well within any reasonable sample of defects for the NASA
> >>>>> space program parts!!!
>
> >>>>> THIS has been wildly overblown. BUT....Toyota has been up to the
> >>>>> challenge. They will have it fixed. The Toyota vehicles will be
> >>>>> better than the space shuttle after all is said and done.
>
> >>>> I remember a month or two after the overturning Ford Explorer fiasco
> >>>> hit the press there was suddenly an epidemic of SUVs of all makes and
> >>>> models flipping over on their sides at every intersection. Before all
> >>>> the publicity, I don't remember ever seeing an overturned SUV.
> >>>> Strange things happen when people start thinking they can cash in.
>
> >>> OTOH,it might be just that the media began NOTICING the SUV rollovers,and
> >>> reporting nationally on every one that happened,instead of just local
> >>> reporting.
>
> >>> Kinda like reaching critical mass.... ;-)
>
> >>> Now,I've been reading that the Obama administration's -reaction- to the
> >>> Toyota recall may be due to union influence,considering Toyota is NON-union
> >>> and a "foreign" automaker. (although it's cars have more domestic content
> >>> than many "American" vehicles,that may be made in Canada or Mexico.
>
> >>> On the Prius brake/cruise control problem,considering that car is a hybrid
> >>> electric(with integral computer control of throttle/braking),I can see
> >>> software bugs cropping up. Sometimes it takes a while to encounter a SW
> >>> bug,particularly under unusual conditions. Like what happens if a ROM's
> >>> data is corrupted;lose a byte here or there,in the wrong place,and you have
> >>> a potentially hazardous condition waiting to be discovered.There's all
> >>> sorts of reasons memory data could get corrupted,AFTER the car is shipped
> >>> and sold.
> >>> At least aircraft have redundant systems.
>
> >>> that's why I'm not so hot on drive-by-wire autos;SW glitches.
>
> >> well, i drove a prius extensively this past summer, and found it to bea
> >> smooth, finely engineered vehicle - no glitches, flaws, or mistakes in
> >> performance anywhere. responsive too. wouldn't hesitate to recommend
> >> one for driveability.
>
> > Geeze, you drove a Prius for a whole summer without any braking
> > problems, and that proves it is great automobile.
>
> > Ok/
>
> > I have driven A WHOLE BUNCH OF GM CARS FOR OVER 34 YEARS with 'no
> > glitches, flaws or mistakes in performance anywhere".
>
> > I would recomend any of them for driveability, as well.
>
> > Of course, my 34 years of GM dont count for much, because you drove a
> > TOYOTA FOR A WHOLE SUMMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> > I guess that makes you an expert on the reliablity on Toyota products.
>
> > And, I guess, I need to own GM products for another 34 years before I
> > begin to know anything about them.
>
> well apparently you haven't bothered to check out the competition. and
> you haven't lifted the lid on quality either.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > You really sound stupid when you try to say the couple of miles you
> > drove this car proves it is better than a brand that someone else has
> > driven for HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF MILES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> > Without sludge problems.
>
> > Or accelerator sticking problems.
>
> > Or rusting problems.
>
> > Or breaking problems.
>
> breaking? or braking?
>
>

Well, actually both!


"breaking" as in breaking suspensions in Tundras, and "Braking" as in
the Prius. (I guess Lexus is to follow, but only because the US
government is picking on Japan).


These problems are very real. Please feel free continue sticking your
head in the sand to ignore, or trying to minimize what really is
happening.


You are beginning to sould like a Global warming expert talking while
most of the world has been freezing its ass off for the past several
years.


IOW, you are showing an incredible lack of credibility.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Of course, none of the above problems really exist on Toyotas.
>
> > You know that because you drove a Prius for a summer.
>
> > Get a grip!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> > "They are being set up."
>
> > I argued GM was being unfairly slammed for many years.
>
> > Your turn to argue Toyota is being done the same way.
>
> > I would wish you good luck in your crusade to prove they ain/t being
> > done the same way, but I dont want to be a liar.
>
> > I hope they have to recall another 20,000,000 vehicles, and listen to
> > the likes of you try to defend it.



>
> 1. the fundamental problem with your position is swallowing the red
> herring that there is a "problem" with toyota. if there's a "problem"
> with toyota, why are we not also hearing about the much more common
> problems with frod and bmw? their failures outnumber toyota's >100:1.


>


You probably need to wake up and face reality. Recalling TENS OF
MILLIONS of vechicles for a myraid of reasons might be an idication
there MIGHT be a "problem"



Recalling more products than you sell indicates there "might be a
problem"



Knowing there were mechanical failures as far back as 2004 but not
doing anything about it indicates there "might be a problem"




And, as far as BMW goes, GM has made a better product for at least as
long as they have made over Japan. 20 years or more.




Once again, the media white-washed such things until recently.




> 2. "the likes of me" know a little about engineering and q.c. why "the
> likes of you" buy unreliable, poor handling, gas guzzling cars for the
> same price as a better japanese vehicle defeats all logic.
>




Once again, you sound like a writer for Consumer Reports. What is
"unreliable?????????? I've owned 30 GM cars over the past 34 years,
driven no doubt over a million miles,( probably a lot more than that),
and have lost ZERO engines and ONE transmission.


"Poor handling"?????????????? What compared to what????????????? A
Supra to a Hummer, or a "Vet" to a Tundra????????????



Or, in general,(no pun intended) The mighty handling Camry or Corolla
to a Monte Carlo or Grand Prix???????????



Gas Guzzling?????????????? This comparison "by the likes of you"
pisses me off about as much as the old "reliability" argument.




I've uses this case before, but here goes again:

My 06 Grand Prix equipped with a 210 hp V6 is much more powerful than
the 170 horse powered FOUR CYLINDER Camry Toyota offered the same
year.

My sticker says it gets 31 mpg highway, (And after four years of
driving it, I can assure you, it does, and even a little better if you
drive it right)

The four banger Toy with a lot less power, gets exactly the same (31
mpg) highway as, my GP does.


Really doesn't sound like a "gas guzzler" to me. But don't take my
word on this, research it. While you're at it, check other TOY vs GM
vechicles head to head, as long as you are comparing apples to apples.
You will find in consistant manner, the GM gets better than it's
comparable Japanese counterpart.


And at the same time offering more power.


FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





> 3. if your argument is that of xenophobic flag flying, you will
> doubtless be disappointed to learn how underinformed you are: gm are the
> largest "outsourcers" of component manufacture in the industry - keeping
> gm alive gives jobs primarily to chinese component manufacturers, not
> american ones.
>
>


And yet, Gm employs more American workers than Japan does.


The 'likes of you" have destroyed many more jobs, by listening to CR
and beliveing in media crap than any GM outsourcing could ever do.



Shutting down factories because ' the likes of you" let CR do your
thinking, or you wanted to have "my choice" resulted in entire US
cities destroyed, economically.


And don't even go near the argument that Japan employs a lot of
Americans.


They dont even come close to off setting the jobs lost due to the
likes of you.



>


>
>
> >> i also drove a chevy hhr, and if there is an example of "fly-by-wire"
> >> done wrong, the hhr is it - what a piece of crap. whoever decided a
> >> vehicle needs a 3-second delay on mid-throttle response needs a good
> >> kicking in the gonads.- Hide quoted text -
>
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Re: protectionist b.s.
 

On Feb 7, 9:41 am, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 02/06/2010 11:28 PM, jr92 wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 12:34 am, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >> On 02/04/2010 08:49 PM, jr92 wrote:
>
> >>> On Feb 3, 10:17 am, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >>>>http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100203...autocompanyrec....
>
> >>>> "US chides Toyota over recall"
>
> >>>> this is back-door protectionist political bullshit.
>
> >>> You mean, like the Japanese version of protectionism that, in 2008,
> >>> exported over 2 million vechicles to the US, while at the same time,
> >>> only allowing 12 thousand American nameplates to be imported
> >>> there??????
>
> >> no, i mean the us protectionism that hypocritically masquerades detroit
> >> brands as "domestic" when all the brakes, steering gear, driveshafts,
> >> instruments, seats, etc. are imported from china killing american companies.
>
> >> You are really a piece of work. I bet you juggle real well.
>
> > You competly miss my point of JAPANESE protectionism regarding
> > American nameplates, and at the same time lie about "all" parts
> > (paraphrasing here) on domestic vehicles come from China.
>
> > Far from the truth, of cours, but believe what you want, just as you
> > believe a few days driving a Prius while being lucky enough to not
> > have brake problems "prove" the problem is pollitically motivated by
> > the US.
>
> >>> Or the type of protectionism that Japan displayed when they had their
> >>> own "cash for clunkers" program, but excluded the handful of American
> >>> nameplates that WERE sold there from the program???????
>
> >> cash for clunkers was ridiculously ill-conceived idiocy. it would have
> >> been cheaper and better for the american public to divide the money
> >> among the few remaining detroit workers and close the money-sucking
> >> dinosaurs for which they "work".
>
> > And yet, you miss my point by a few light years.
>
> > My point is, "WHY DID THE JAPANESE NOT INCLUDE AMERICAN NAMEPLATES IN
> > THEIR CASH FOR CLUNKERS PROGRAM???
>
> because it would be a waste of money - the japanese don't buy crappy
> american cars.
>



The fact that the Japanese don't buy American cars (I am trying not
to xeonphobic, but I do believe one who lives in the US should be
respectful and use a captial "A" when using the word "American"),
because they ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO SO! Or at least the ones who have
access to the whopping number of 12000 cars their government allows to
be sold there.


For the humpteenth time, you deal in bias and not in reality.


Or in generalizations.


Just like Consumer Reports.
>

>
> > If the American nameplates are the junk that you suggest they are, no
> > one in Japan would buy them in the first place.
>
> > If that is the case, why doesn't Japan allow a true free market, and
> > allow US vehicles be sold in Japan without restrictions?????
>
> there are no restrictions against american brands in south america,
> thailand, the philippines, australia, south africa, [etc.] why do
> japanese brands outsell american in those markets?
>



> But yet, in a free market, they sell a whole helluva lot MORE THAN 12000 units Japan allows sold. The Japanese government is smart enough to know that, given a free market, more than 12000 American cars would be sold , cutting into Japanese market share and resulting in job losses there.


Just like what happens in the good old US of A.



>
> > I American cars were the junk the likes of you suggest, no one in
> > Japan would buy them if the first place.
>
> they only sell in the domestic market - nobody else buys them. and out
> junkyards are /full/ of domestics that are only 10 years old.
>


>
Once again you deal in generalizations, and not in facts.

GM sells more vechicles overseas than they do in the US.

"nobody buys them" is simply bunk/


>
> > Of, course, the way Japan has is set up, no one really gets the chance
> > to buy them in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


>
> no so with the rest of the global markets buddy, and our product line
> sucks - that's why it doesn't sell.
>
>

Sells only in the millions.


SOMEBODY is buying them.
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> Sounds fair to me, I guess, if I were from Japan.
>
> >>>> fact: ford, bmw, and others have all had throttle sensor problems, and
> >>>> in much greater numbers than toyota.
>
> >>>> fact: the media has all but ignored it.
>
> >>> Amazing statement.
>
> >>> For over three decades, the media has lamblasted American autos for
> >>> everything from interior light bulbs burning out, to weather stripping
> >>> dry-rotting after 10 years. They hammered away repeatedly at the "lack
> >>> of American reliability until many, who did not check things out on
> >>> their own, began to believe them.
>
> >> go to a junk yard buddy. you'll see domestic vehicles by the thousand,
> >> 10 years and younger. you'll see japanese 15 years and older. the
> >> domestics are worn out. the japanese are there simply because their
> >> drivers got bored.
>
> >> nothing speaks to reliability facts better than a junkyard.
>
> > Or the highway.
>
> > Take any year you want: 1995, 2007,1988, 1993, or whatever.
>
> > See how many American namelates are on the road compared to their
> > "superior" Japanese conterparts.
>
> > I bet you would be surprised.
>
> you must live in some podunk rural community. in the cities, where the
> volume is, it's all japanese and european.
>
>



Good guess.


I do live in a rural area. Lot of pick-up trucks here.



Mostly American nameplates.




I find it ironic that the cities, where you say the volume is, have
had the life squeezed out of them economically because auto factories
shutting down due to the citizens of the very same cities choosing to
drive a Japanese or European nameplate.


And it is ironic that the fews jobs that do remain, are because of
rural communites like mine, or foreign countries buying the products.


Of course, in the end, we all reap what we sow.
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> Now, the worm is beginning to turn, and there are those who believed
> >>> what the media said for thirty years, are accusing them of the same
> >>> things they did against American nameplates.
>
> >> hey, i'm a patriot and i'll always buy domestic when it makes sense.
> >> but detroit vehicles are unbelievable crap. and i don't like being
> >> ripped off by mercenary a-holes that try to sell me vehicles they /know/
> >> to be defective - frod and their exploder fiasco. and i don't like
> >> having to pay through the nose to keep gas guzzling unreliable pieces of
> >> s. on the road when i can buy japanese and actually get a reliable vehicle.
>
> > Once again you are pulling a Cyndi Lauper and are displaying your
> > "true colors"
>
> > you are biased to the nth degree as far as American nameplates go.
>
> > "domestic crap"
>
> > "unbelievable crap"
>
> > "unreliable pieces of s"
>
> > All untrue, of course.
>
> you need to lift the hood on a few cars in a junk yard - the quality
> differences between japanese and domestic stand out a mile.
>
>
>
> > Your one summer of Prius driving does not "prove" American nameplates
> > are bad.
>
> no, it exposes the hysterical bullshit lie about so-called prius
> "braking problems"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> Maybe turn-a-bout IS fair play!
>
> >> telling the truth is fair play. detroit produces garbage and expects
> >> the tax payer to bail out their inability to produce vehicles properly..
>
> >>>> here we are, hot on the heels of political dismay at the unconsidered
> >>>> consequences of their ridiculous "cash for clunkers" program benefiting
> >>>> manufacturers of fuel efficient cars, not domestic gas guzzlers, being
> >>>> subjected to politically motivated hysterical xenophobia.
>
> >>> Kinda funny how it took about 20 MILLION
>
> >> ok dude, now you're just a bullshitter.
>
> > No, just facts, even if you don't want to believe them.
>
> > Check it out, not hard to find.
>
> so help a poor old bullshitting retard out - cite your sources. your
> explanation of why frod manages to escape recalls for fatal design flaws
> that have killed hundreds would be good too.
>
>



Use Google.


Take a little time.


Research.


It's all there, if you choose to believe facts.


>
>
>
> >> > Toyota recalls over the past
>
> >>> 3 or 4 years before it became politically motivated, or a "hysterical
> >>> xeonphobia."
>
> >>> Hell , a good chunk of the MILLIONS of recalls happened well before it
> >>> became "chic' to knock Toyota.
>
> >>> The sludging engines, or rusting supensions were known well before the
> >>> US government began ownership in GM or Chysler, so there was nothing
> >>> to be gained by the US pressuring Toyota into making recalls. There
> >>> goes the 'conflict of interest" argument.
>
> >>> And BTW, if you believe Toyota has NOT been spending bundles of money
> >>> lobbying Washington, then YOU are more naive than you claim Toyota is..
>
> >>>> fact: toyota sells better, more fuel efficient, safer, more reliable
> >>>> vehicles using american parts and american labor than domestics
> >>>> assembling their carp from the chinese componentry they import.
>
> >>> Really, you didn't make a single factual statement at all in this
> >>> paragrah.
>
> >>> Matter of fact, just the opposite of what you stated is actually true..
>
> >>>> if toyota needs to learn a lesson from this fiasco, it's that they need
> >>>> to show up in washington and hand over their lobbying cash like detroit
> >>>> does, not be politically naive and simply rely on selling superior product.- Hide quoted text -
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