Grumpy AuContraire

Tegger wrote:
> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
> news:PrdTh.284544$5j1.237709@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
>
>>
>>Tegger wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise
>>>with a sharp drift and a hammer.
>>>
>>>With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway,
>>>
>>
>>
>>This technique often works except for the fact that this engine while
>>not directly exposed to the weather sat in the car for nearly twelve
>>years in this condition.
>
>
>
>
> Ooh. That could complicate things.
>
> However...an air chisel will still drive it around very nicely even if
> corroded. Any garage with air tools should be able to do this for you.
> Unless it's really caked up, the air chisel should spin it off in
> seconds.
>
>
>
>
>>Oh, All the pistons have a "impression" for either valve clearance or
>>damage from valve contact which may have been why the car was taken
>>off the road.
>
>

It twisted off deep in the recess and it was a "no go" with the
centerpunch technique. I'll drop the shaft off to the machine shop next
week.


>
>
> Check the crank bearings. Excessive wear will allow the pistons to
> travel too far upwards.
>

I don't think so in this case as the engine had only 110K and there is
no detectable ridge at the top of the cylinders. In fact, even sanding
down the rust with 80 grit doesn't seem to hurt the cylinder walls.
That puppy might get by with a honing and new rings/rod bearings.



> IF the pistons are contacting the valves, the valves will almost
> certainly be bent.
>

I have the head which was supposedly rebuilt. Maybe I should send you
some pix of the piston tops. I've never run into the valve/piston
fracas when a timing belt snaps.

JT

Tegger

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in news:zDfTh.21776
$tD2.12088@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
>> The cause is simple embedment.
>>
>> Not only have I been told this by engineers whose
>> specialty is
>> fasteners,
>
> We already went over this, and the guy was not absolutely
> sure.
>
>> but HONDA SAYS SO, TOO:
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/hsn_feb-93.pdf
>
> This only says two to three times the installation torque
> may be required to remove the bolt, not why.



It says the reason is the bolt sticks to the crankshaft threads. That's
"embedment".

It's not a "theory", but established fact, and a well-known phenomenon.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
news:i0gTh.36169$VU4.5659@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

>
>
> Tegger wrote:
>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
>> news:PrdTh.284544$5j1.237709@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Tegger wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise
>>>>with a sharp drift and a hammer.
>>>>
>>>>With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway,
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>This technique often works except for the fact that this engine while
>>>not directly exposed to the weather sat in the car for nearly twelve
>>>years in this condition.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ooh. That could complicate things.
>>
>> However...an air chisel will still drive it around very nicely even
>> if corroded. Any garage with air tools should be able to do this for
>> you. Unless it's really caked up, the air chisel should spin it off
>> in seconds.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Oh, All the pistons have a "impression" for either valve clearance or
>>>damage from valve contact which may have been why the car was taken
>>>off the road.
>>
>>
>
> It twisted off deep in the recess and it was a "no go" with the
> centerpunch technique. I'll drop the shaft off to the machine shop
> next week.



Broke off too deep to be able to get a good run at it, I guess?



> I have the head which was supposedly rebuilt. Maybe I should send you
> some pix of the piston tops.


I'd like to see the recesses you mention.


> I've never run into the valve/piston
> fracas when a timing belt snaps.
>


I haven't, personally, either. I have personally known of two Honda
engines that suffered no damage when the belt broke (Civic and CR-V).


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Michael Pardee

"Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
news:i0gTh.36169$VU4.5659@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> Tegger wrote:
>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
>> news:PrdTh.284544$5j1.237709@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>>>
>>>Tegger wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise
>>>>with a sharp drift and a hammer.
>>>>
>>>>With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway,
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>This technique often works except for the fact that this engine while not
>>>directly exposed to the weather sat in the car for nearly twelve years in
>>>this condition.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ooh. That could complicate things.
>>
>> However...an air chisel will still drive it around very nicely even if
>> corroded. Any garage with air tools should be able to do this for you.
>> Unless it's really caked up, the air chisel should spin it off in
>> seconds.
>>>Oh, All the pistons have a "impression" for either valve clearance or
>>>damage from valve contact which may have been why the car was taken
>>>off the road.
>>
>>
>
> It twisted off deep in the recess and it was a "no go" with the
> centerpunch technique. I'll drop the shaft off to the machine shop next
> week.
>
>
>>
>>
>> Check the crank bearings. Excessive wear will allow the pistons to
>> travel too far upwards.
>
> I don't think so in this case as the engine had only 110K and there is no
> detectable ridge at the top of the cylinders. In fact, even sanding down
> the rust with 80 grit doesn't seem to hurt the cylinder walls. That puppy
> might get by with a honing and new rings/rod bearings.
>
>
>
>> IF the pistons are contacting the valves, the valves will almost
>> certainly be bent.
>
> I have the head which was supposedly rebuilt. Maybe I should send you
> some pix of the piston tops. I've never run into the valve/piston fracas
> when a timing belt snaps.
>
> JT
>

It's a little spooky for obvious reasons, but when I had trouble with an
alternator support bolt breaking off recessed in my really old Volvo (don't
ask) I had success epoxying a nut to the end of the bolt. I prepped the
location by spraying with brake cleaner. I put a dab of quick set epoxy
putty in the center of the nut and left it extending out a bit, then pressed
it into place and held it there a few minutes. I did let it set overnight
before putting a wrench on it, though. Easy does it!

Short of that you can try duct tape on the back of a socket to fit in the
hole, but I never got enough traction with that. Never tried a left-hand
drill.

Mike

Grumpy AuContraire

Tegger wrote:
> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
> news:i0gTh.36169$VU4.5659@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
>
>>
>>Tegger wrote:
>>
>>>Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
>>>news:PrdTh.284544$5j1.237709@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Tegger wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise
>>>>>with a sharp drift and a hammer.
>>>>>
>>>>>With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>This technique often works except for the fact that this engine while
>>>>not directly exposed to the weather sat in the car for nearly twelve
>>>>years in this condition.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Ooh. That could complicate things.
>>>
>>>However...an air chisel will still drive it around very nicely even
>>>if corroded. Any garage with air tools should be able to do this for
>>>you. Unless it's really caked up, the air chisel should spin it off
>>>in seconds.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Oh, All the pistons have a "impression" for either valve clearance or
>>>>damage from valve contact which may have been why the car was taken
>>>>off the road.
>>>
>>>
>>It twisted off deep in the recess and it was a "no go" with the
>>centerpunch technique. I'll drop the shaft off to the machine shop
>>next week.
>
>
>
>
> Broke off too deep to be able to get a good run at it, I guess?
>
>

Not so much that but it's not budging. I'm simply distorting what's
left even more.

In my earlier days, I would have found out exactly what the dimensions
of the shank minus thread were, got a drill bit slightly smaller and
attempted to drill it out and retap (clean the threads) myself. But I'm
far too lazy to do that now.

I suspect that the crank itself is fine and within tolerance for a new
set of standard bearings. I'll send a pix of the piston tops later today.

JT

(Now if this was the Studebaker group, I'd just post 'em right here..)

Grumpy AuContraire

Michael Pardee wrote:

> "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
> news:i0gTh.36169$VU4.5659@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>>
>>Tegger wrote:
>>
>>>Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
>>>news:PrdTh.284544$5j1.237709@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>>>
>>>>Tegger wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise
>>>>>with a sharp drift and a hammer.
>>>>>
>>>>>With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>This technique often works except for the fact that this engine while not
>>>>directly exposed to the weather sat in the car for nearly twelve years in
>>>>this condition.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Ooh. That could complicate things.
>>>
>>>However...an air chisel will still drive it around very nicely even if
>>>corroded. Any garage with air tools should be able to do this for you.
>>>Unless it's really caked up, the air chisel should spin it off in
>>>seconds.
>>>
>>>>Oh, All the pistons have a "impression" for either valve clearance or
>>>>damage from valve contact which may have been why the car was taken
>>>>off the road.
>>>
>>>
>>It twisted off deep in the recess and it was a "no go" with the
>>centerpunch technique. I'll drop the shaft off to the machine shop next
>>week.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Check the crank bearings. Excessive wear will allow the pistons to
>>>travel too far upwards.
>>
>>I don't think so in this case as the engine had only 110K and there is no
>>detectable ridge at the top of the cylinders. In fact, even sanding down
>>the rust with 80 grit doesn't seem to hurt the cylinder walls. That puppy
>>might get by with a honing and new rings/rod bearings.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>IF the pistons are contacting the valves, the valves will almost
>>>certainly be bent.
>>
>>I have the head which was supposedly rebuilt. Maybe I should send you
>>some pix of the piston tops. I've never run into the valve/piston fracas
>>when a timing belt snaps.
>>
>>JT
>>
>
>
> It's a little spooky for obvious reasons, but when I had trouble with an
> alternator support bolt breaking off recessed in my really old Volvo (don't
> ask) I had success epoxying a nut to the end of the bolt. I prepped the
> location by spraying with brake cleaner. I put a dab of quick set epoxy
> putty in the center of the nut and left it extending out a bit, then pressed
> it into place and held it there a few minutes. I did let it set overnight
> before putting a wrench on it, though. Easy does it!
>
> Short of that you can try duct tape on the back of a socket to fit in the
> hole, but I never got enough traction with that. Never tried a left-hand
> drill.
>
> Mike
>

That's what I'd call livin' close to the edge!

If you have anything that breaks off and needs a weld-like repair with
real strength properties, try Devcon titanium putty.

When I freshend the engine in my Studebaker P/U ten years ago, the pan
was like Swiss cheese. I spent an evening cleaning it out, coated the
entire inside with a skim coat of Devcon and it still is holding up ten
years later.

I don't know what you mean by a "left hand" drill. If one drills a bolt
out, a conventional drill is used. I got my experience years ago in
aircraft manufacturing having had to drill out lots of rivets/fasteners.
So much so, I don't like doing anymore!

JT

Michael Pardee

"Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
news:6hsTh.37877$VU4.22572@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> I don't know what you mean by a "left hand" drill. If one drills a bolt
> out, a conventional drill is used. I got my experience years ago in
> aircraft manufacturing having had to drill out lots of rivets/fasteners.
> So much so, I don't like doing anymore!
>
> JT
>
>

Tool stores sometimes carry drills (the part that contacts the work, as
opposed to the motor piece) that turn CCW in use instead of CW. Example at
http://tinyurl.com/2zqy4y They are often used to drill pilot holes for
easy-outs, but sometimes just the drag and occasional grab will unscrew
bolts... say those who have used them.

Mike

Jim Yanik

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
news:3_GdncjS8sdI4YPbnZ2dnUVZ_rSjnZ2d@sedona.net:

> "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
> news:6hsTh.37877$VU4.22572@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>
>>
>> I don't know what you mean by a "left hand" drill. If one drills a
>> bolt out, a conventional drill is used. I got my experience years
>> ago in aircraft manufacturing having had to drill out lots of
>> rivets/fasteners. So much so, I don't like doing anymore!
>>
>> JT
>>
>>
>
> Tool stores sometimes carry drills (the part that contacts the work,
> as opposed to the motor piece) that turn CCW in use instead of CW.
> Example at http://tinyurl.com/2zqy4y They are often used to drill
> pilot holes for easy-outs, but sometimes just the drag and occasional
> grab will unscrew bolts... say those who have used them.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>

drill BITS is the word you're looking for.
I've used RH bits before to drill out broken bolts and had the bit turn the
piece out the back side of the work.

As far as easyouts go,the newer sort that are short and have a shoulder are
supposed to work the best.I never had much luck with the standard kind of
easyout.It seems like screwing them in expands the bolt around the hole you
just drilled,and makes it harder to turn out.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Michael Pardee

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9910AF543120Ejyanikkuanet@64.209.0.87...
>
> drill BITS is the word you're looking for.

Now, my old wood shop teacher was adamant that "bits" were the wood boring
devices used with a brace; they have a flat face, centering point and
cutting points at the ends of the face. What we are talking about, he
insisted, are "twist drills" and are used with a "drill motor." :-) Of
course, everybody knows them as drill bits, but I just know he's lurking
with a ruler to rap my knuckles if I betray his teaching.

I also have had very limited success with easyouts. The grip never seems to
match the tightness of the bolt. I've seen the newer type you describe but
haven't tried one.

Mike

Grumpy AuContraire

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
> news:Xns9910AF543120Ejyanikkuanet@64.209.0.87...
>
>>drill BITS is the word you're looking for.
>
>
> Now, my old wood shop teacher was adamant that "bits" were the wood boring
> devices used with a brace; they have a flat face, centering point and
> cutting points at the ends of the face. What we are talking about, he
> insisted, are "twist drills" and are used with a "drill motor." :-) Of
> course, everybody knows them as drill bits, but I just know he's lurking
> with a ruler to rap my knuckles if I betray his teaching.
>

The same vernacular was used in my early days of aerospace
manufacturing. The best drill "motors" were pnuematic as they had very
good throttling control which is need when drilling out rivet heads to
drive the rest through the work. Of course, the desired result is to
install rivets to spec correctly the first time...


> I also have had very limited success with easyouts. The grip never seems to
> match the tightness of the bolt. I've seen the newer type you describe but
> haven't tried one.
>
>


This project will be going to the machine shop Monday morning for
removal of the crank bolt. Upon teardown today, all of the bearings
appeard perfect as did the crank shaft and I'm going to see how the
cylinders clean up.

JT

Grumpy AuContraire

Tegger wrote:

> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
> news:i0gTh.36169$VU4.5659@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
>
>>
>>Tegger wrote:
>>
>>>Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
>>>news:PrdTh.284544$5j1.237709@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Tegger wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise
>>>>>with a sharp drift and a hammer.
>>>>>
>>>>>With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>This technique often works except for the fact that this engine while
>>>>not directly exposed to the weather sat in the car for nearly twelve
>>>>years in this condition.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Ooh. That could complicate things.
>>>
>>>However...an air chisel will still drive it around very nicely even
>>>if corroded. Any garage with air tools should be able to do this for
>>>you. Unless it's really caked up, the air chisel should spin it off
>>>in seconds.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Oh, All the pistons have a "impression" for either valve clearance or
>>>>damage from valve contact which may have been why the car was taken
>>>>off the road.
>>>
>>>
>>It twisted off deep in the recess and it was a "no go" with the
>>centerpunch technique. I'll drop the shaft off to the machine shop
>>next week.
>
>
>
>
> Broke off too deep to be able to get a good run at it, I guess?
>
>
>
>
>>I have the head which was supposedly rebuilt. Maybe I should send you
>>some pix of the piston tops.
>
>
>
> I'd like to see the recesses you mention.
>
>

I pulled the pistons today complete with rods. I'll take a pix in the
morning and send 'em to you but it sure looks like factory to me.

Interesting note. All of the top rings were stuck which is not to be
unexpected since this thing say with the head off of it for over ten
years. It seems that the top compression rings are "thinner" than the
second ring. IOW, the second ring will not fit into the top groove. I
find this very strange. Have you heard of such?

JT

Grumpy AuContraire

Just to bring y'all up to date, Tegger and I did some off line
conversing and it appears that 1982/83 1300 engines did have two
different compression ring thickness as follows: Top ring - 1mm and 2nd
ring - 1.2mm.

Called Majestic and while they are available, they are on back order so
who knows how long. Fortunately, found a set on eBay that specified the
above dimensions and snagged 'em for $50 including shipping and insurance.

Needless to say, my big overhaul project scheduled for last Saturday got
pushed back but as soon as the rings come in, I'll hopefully be back on
(some sort of) schedule.

The scheme is to use the pistons/rods out of the '83 which is a five
speed with 110K and put them into the $200 '82 bare bones Civic wonder
that has nearly zero compression on #1 and sucks up about a quart of oil
per 200 miles. One guy whined that I killed all his mosquitoes and I
just replied, "No Charge!"

The second part is to rehab the original FE engine with new pistons,
rings and bearings and eventually reinstall it into that car. Then the
'81 engine can be resealed and held as a spare on standby should the
worst happen...

JT

(Who refuses to enter the 21st century regarding transportation...)

Grumpy AuContraire

Dropped the shaft off at the machine shop and by the time I got home,
there was a message that the bolt was removed.

Turned out, he simply used a little "easy out lube" and it spun right
out. No charge to boot.

These guys came highly recommended for work on smaller engines from the
folks at my regular machine shop that does traditional/vintage engine work.

I'll probably take the bare block over to have 'em look at it as I think
it will clean up fine with honing.

Life is good...

JT

Tegger

Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
news:gbrVh.55929$VU4.10581@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

> Dropped the shaft off at the machine shop and by the time I got home,
> there was a message that the bolt was removed.
>
> Turned out, he simply used a little "easy out lube"



"Easy out lube"? Sounds naughty. Any details on this potion?



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Grumpy AuContraire

Tegger wrote:
> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
> news:gbrVh.55929$VU4.10581@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
>
>>Dropped the shaft off at the machine shop and by the time I got home,
>>there was a message that the bolt was removed.
>>
>>Turned out, he simply used a little "easy out lube"
>
>
>
>
> "Easy out lube"? Sounds naughty. Any details on this potion?
>
>


K-Y U wanna no???

I'll have more info tomorrow as I'll be picking it up and having my
freshly honed cylinders inspected at the same time.

I feel like a kid shooting marbles on an uneven slope!

JT